What exactly can be applied to a Thunderlance in terms of feats and abilities?

[gorilla-turtle]

I'm very curious about this spell, but ultimately I'm not sure what all works with it. The basic Lance, on one hand, is a Two Handed (unless used Mounted) Limited Reach Weapon that does 1d8 Piercing Damage. The Thunderlance, on the other hand, has a reach of anywhere from 0ft to 20 ft, does 3d8 Force Damage, and can be wielded 1 or 2 handed, among a few other differences.

In what ways could this weaponlike spell be upgraded? Could one, for example, take the weapon focus line with it? Or maybe feats like Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, or Two Weapon Fighting? Persistent spell should be able to apply to it; could any other metamagic also apply, such as Empower Spell? What other ways could this be optimized?

[LibraryOgre]

As I understand it, weaponlike spells can be upgraded by any weapon feats and/or spell feats.

[nedz]

Born of Three Thunders would be thematic and effective — but I'm not sure that the spell is eligible.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Persistent Thunderlance(may require metamagic reduction or improved spell capacity)
Greater Magic Weapon,
Persistent Wraith Strike

Couple that with power attack and you have an engine of destruction. I had a epic Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight/Abjurant Champion who specialized in fighting using thunderlance,
However his sheet was lost in a crash so I can't bring up a lot of details.

[T.G. Oskar]

Argent Savant is pretty nice for Thunderlance because of what it offers: the first three levels are enough.

First, you get Force Specialization, which gives you a +2 to the attack roll and +1 damage per die; that means you get a free +3 to damage just because, on every hit, and with a bonus to hit as well.

The kicker is Extended Force, as any spell with the [force] descriptor is Extended for free. That means Thunderlance now lasts for twice as much; an excellent move (note that Abjurant Champion only extends abjuration spells, whereas Thunderlance is an Evocation spell).

As an addendum: if you have levels in Wizard and Abjurant Champion, you can combine the effects of Force Armor and Abjurant Armor (a +14 to AC from your armor and your shield). If it weren't because of the poor BAB, Argent Savant + Abjurant Champion would be a pretty standard choice.

Also, consider that anything that boosts your dispel check will also dispel any 3rd level or lower Force effect (since it requires a dispel check to succeed), so count on those ones as well. A Dispelling Cord will boost your Thunderlance's dispel check.

[gorilla-turtle]

Born of Three Thunders would be thematic and effective — but I'm not sure that the spell is eligible.

Unfortunately, on it's own it wouldn't be, since that feat requires an Electric or Sonic spell, and I'm pretty sure it's a Force spell.


As I understand it, weaponlike spells can be upgraded by any weapon feats and/or spell feats.


Persistent Thunderlance(may require metamagic reduction or improved spell capacity)
Greater Magic Weapon,
Persistent Wraith Strike

Couple that with power attack and you have an engine of destruction.

A terrible thought occurs:

Thunderlance can be wielded two handed.
Two handed weapons get a Power Attack Multiplier.
The Damage is both Variable (depending on how much you Power Attack) and numeric (just numbers).


What would happen if you applied Empower Spell to a Thunderlance and Power Attacked with it? Before anyone objects to this, note that the SRD version of Empower Spell seems to not have been fully copied over.


Benefit:All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are
increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much
damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half
again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. For example, an
empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll
1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1-1/2 for each missile). Saving
throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast
dispel magic) are not affected, nor are spells without random
variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher
than the spell’s actual level.

None of the Underlined is included in the SRD. And before one argues that it does not pass the Italicised part, the base 3d6 damage seems as if it would count for that. So, could one have an Empowered Thunderlance for a x3 Power Attack Multiplier? Added to Wraithstrike, that would be rather terrifying if it was legal, and given the Magic Missile example, I wouldn't be surprised if it was RAW legal at least.


Argent Savant is pretty nice for Thunderlance because of what it offers: the first three levels are enough.

First, you get Force Specialization, which gives you a +2 to the attack roll and +1 damage per die; that means you get a free +3 to damage just because, on every hit, and with a bonus to hit as well.

The kicker is Extended Force, as any spell with the [force] descriptor is Extended for free. That means Thunderlance now lasts for twice as much; an excellent move (note that Abjurant Champion only extends abjuration spells, whereas Thunderlance is an Evocation spell).

As an addendum: if you have levels in Wizard and Abjurant Champion, you can combine the effects of Force Armor and Abjurant Armor (a +14 to AC from your armor and your shield). If it weren't because of the poor BAB, Argent Savant + Abjurant Champion would be a pretty standard choice.

Also, consider that anything that boosts your dispel check will also dispel any 3rd level or lower Force effect (since it requires a dispel check to succeed), so count on those ones as well. A Dispelling Cord will boost your Thunderlance's dispel check.

I'll keep that in mind, though I'm not sure how I feel about losing a caster level (I'm interested in a Swiftblade Gish, so I've got enough of them going away as it is).

[nedz]

Unfortunately, on it's own it wouldn't be, since that feat requires an Electric or Sonic spell, and I'm pretty sure it's a Force spell.
Well that depends upon whether Force is an Energy Descriptor ?
BTT has a pre-req of Energy Substitution (electricity)
Energy Substitution can modify any spell with an energy descriptor into acid, cold, electricity, or fire.
To which we could apply BTT.

Unfortunately the rules are vague on this in that Energy Descriptor is never defined.


[Descriptor]
The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic, and water.


Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire). You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level. The spell's descriptor changes to the new energy type—for example, a fireball composed of cold energy is an evocation [cold] spell

[Lord Vukodlak]

Empower might not work to well with thunderlance depending on the DM.

If you empower summon monster you could get 1d3x1.5 monsters but the things summoned don't have 50% more hit points. A DM might apply this logic to things like thudnerlance, black blade disaster, or spiritual weapon.

[Keld Denar]

I've always maintained that you can Empower a Whirling Blade, but I've always been told no. Thunderlance would probably work, though.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh... Empowered Whirling Blade casted on a Greater Mighty Wallop'd (CL 20) Executioner's Mace sounds FUN!

But would empower affect the whole damage (IE including stuff like Power attack, Knowledge devotion, etc) or just the base 3d6.

[Keld Denar]

Per the MM example ((1d4+1)x1.5), I'd say that you multiply everything, static and variable.

Don't forget your Dragonfire Inspiration. Whirling Blade is a Bard song too!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Huh it actually works, I thought since DFI didn't apply to weapon-like spells it wouldn't work for WB, but thanks to the magic words "as if you attacked with the weapon in melee", it does!

I ought to use bard as a base for a gish one of these days.

[gorfnab]

Knowledge Devotion should get you a bit of extra attack and damage as usual.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Charisma/Intelligence are a bonus from the character(that the spell allows you to add in place of strength). It isn't a variable effect of the spell. So I would say no.

If the thunderlance did a flat 3d6+X per three caster levels. Then I'd be inclined to say yes because the damage is a variable effect of the spell.

[gorilla-turtle]

@ nedz, actually, there is presidence in the Force Missle Mage that Force by itself would not count as an Energy Descriptor.

@ Lord Vukodlak, it is a good thing that I am preparing this as the signature ability for an NPC, is it not? From my own reading, Empowered Summoned Monster Spells take a higher level slot to summon more lower level monsters. That sounds entirely reasonable, as does Empowered Power Attacking Thunderlance, though that only because a Combat Brute Power Attack sequence with a Two Handed Valorous Weapon is just as easily possible and does even more damage. Empowered Power Attack Thunderlance, on ther other hand, is usually more limited on a Mage chasis, feat and bab wise. Even stat wise, really. I don't see the issue with using Empower Spell on Spiritual Weapon, though I'm not familiar with Black Blade Disaster.

@ Keld Denar & Dusk Eclipse, Whirling Blade sounds like an interesting spell to use, too. Though figuring out whether or not external abilities are capable of being Empowered or not is part of the question now... Where exactly is that clause about mathmatically putting things together in whichever order is most beneficial?

@ Lord Vukodlak, for the Intelligence / Charisma Bonus not being multiplied, any chance you can cite something about this, or are you just going with your own opinion? I feel the semantics of the wording could be argued endlessly without some official ruling. Looking at it, it really does seem like one could multiply all of those boosters (the spell's base damage, the int or cha bonus added to hit and damage, and power attack added to it) through Empower Spell, given all of those are non constant (ie variable) and expressed through numbers (numeric), which seem as if they would satisfy the credintials of Empower Spell.

I wonder if this thread should be focused on what can be done with Empower Spell, rather than anything else...

[Lord Vukodlak]

@ Lord Vukodlak, for the Intelligence / Charisma Bonus not being multiplied, any chance you can cite something about this, or are you just going with your own opinion? I feel the semantics of the wording could be argued endlessly without some official ruling. Looking at it, it really does seem like one could multiply all of those boosters (the spell's base damage, the int or cha bonus added to hit and damage, and power attack added to it) through Empower Spell, given all of those are non constant (ie variable) and expressed through numbers (numeric), which seem as if they would satisfy the credintials of Empower Spell.
Empower effects variable, numeric effects of the spell. The effect of the spell thunderlance is it creates a lance of force with a reach up to 20ft that deals 3d8 points of damage. That damage if a variable numeric effect of the spell

Secondly your allowed to add your charisma or intelligence bonus in place of your strength modifier on these attacks. That's just an effect your allowed to use an ability score other then strength on damage and to hit.

Someone can argue it the other way but the spell doesn't need it, with things like greater magic weapon and wraithstrike a high level character could be dealing. 3d8+15(charisma 1.5)+5(from magic weapon, greater), +20(power attack -10 while wielded in two hands)=3d8+40 vs the targets touch AC.


Thunderlance, on ther other hand, is usually more limited on a Mage chasis, feat and bab wise
Gish build Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Spellsword three ways to up your BAB as a "mage" Plus the spell wraithstrike will make all your melee attacks touch for 1 round.(or 24 hours if you persist it)

[gorilla-turtle]

Empower effects variable, numeric effects of the spell. The effect of the spell thunderlance is it creates a lance of force with a reach up to 20ft that deals 3d8 points of damage. That damage if a variable numeric effect of the spell

Secondly your allowed to add your charisma or intelligence bonus in place of your strength modifier on these attacks. That's just an effect your allowed to use an ability score other then strength on damage and to hit.

Someone can argue it the other way but the spell doesn't need it, with things like greater magic weapon and wraithstrike a high level character could be dealing. 3d8+15(charisma 1.5)+5(from magic weapon, greater), +20(power attack -10 while wielded in two hands)=3d8+40 vs the targets touch AC.

After mulling it over for a few days, I can actually see where my own logic suffers a bit. Unless the description explicitely states one multiplies something, allowing Empower Spell to multiply more than the spell itself is a bit off.. you are explicitly creating a weapon made out of magic, and empowering it just makes a stronger weapon, not everything you attack with. I see.

My only question is the stat modifier in your example: That is the bonus for two handed fighting with a weapon, correct?


Gish build Eldritch Knight, Abjurant Champion, Spellsword three ways to up your BAB as a "mage" Plus the spell wraithstrike will make all your melee attacks touch for 1 round.(or 24 hours if you persist it)

I actually realized the falicy in that part of my response almost immediately after logging off.

[Vhaidara]

To get Born of Three Thunders, could you use part of the Locate City Nuke?
Snowcasting into Flash Frost Spell into Energy Admixture/Substitution into Born of Three Thunders?

[Lord Vukodlak]

My only question is the stat modifier in your example: That is the bonus for two handed fighting with a weapon, correct?
Yes, it assumes your wielding the weapon in both hands. That's what my character did.


I actually realized the falicy in that part of my response almost immediately after logging off.We've all been there.

[gorilla-turtle]

To get Born of Three Thunders, could you use part of the Locate City Nuke?
Snowcasting into Flash Frost Spell into Energy Admixture/Substitution into Born of Three Thunders?

From my reading, Thunderlance is ineligible for Flash Frost Spell due to lacking an area, and I fail to see why it would be needed in the first place or what benefit it would achieve. Could Snowcasting not go directly into Energy Substitution into Born of Three Thunders?


Yes, it assumes your wielding the weapon in both hands. That's what my character did.

We've all been there.

Quite.

[Vhaidara]

Good point. I forgot the reason they needed Flash Frost Spell on the original nuke was to give Locate City a damage component.

The irony is the it wouldn't actually change the damage type of the spell wouldn't actually change.

However, there is a problem. BoTT would only trigger when the Thunderlance expired ("Additionally, the spell concludes...").

[TuggyNE]

We've all been there.

Well, or immediately after posting. (I don't log off :smalltongue:)

[bekeleven]

Note that an item of continuous or use-activated thunderlance - I recommend gloves - costs 56k.

[Tvtyrant]

Reserves of Strength uncaps the strength bonus on the thunderlance, so if you have a freakishly high CL you then have a freakishly high strength score for the purpose of using the lance. Even without CL raising cheese you will have a strength score of 32 at level 20.

Master spellthief-chameleon build for a CL of 26+4 (bead of karma) +1 (orange Ioun Stone) for a CL of 31 and a strength score of 43 when using a lance.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Reserves of Strength uncaps the strength bonus on the thunderlance, so if you have a freakishly high CL you then have a freakishly high strength score for the purpose of using the lance. Even without CL raising cheese you will have a strength score of 32 at level 20.

Master spellthief-chameleon build for a CL of 26+4 (bead of karma) +1 (orange Ioun Stone) for a CL of 31 and a strength score of 43 when using a lance.

What is this reserves of strength you speak of, the only one I can see is a dragonlance feat that increases caster level.... but it be largely irrelevant for the spell thunderlance.
The lance deals 3d8 points of damage with the option to use your spell casting ability score modifier in place of strength. But there is no cap and the bonus you add is irrelevant to caster level.

[gorilla-turtle]

Good point. I forgot the reason they needed Flash Frost Spell on the original nuke was to give Locate City a damage component.

The irony is the it wouldn't actually change the damage type of the spell wouldn't actually change.

However, there is a problem. BoTT would only trigger when the Thunderlance expired ("Additionally, the spell concludes...").

Hm... then Born of Three Thunders is useless for upgrading the Lance, especially if it is Persisted.


Note that an item of continuous or use-activated thunderlance - I recommend gloves - costs 56k.

If anything, it should be a custom, handheld item, not a glove. You would effectively have a light sabre. How cheap could an artificer craft continous use thunderlances if optimized for the cheapest price possible, for the sake of outfiting an army of intelligent low-to-mid level casters?


Reserves of Strength uncaps the strength bonus on the thunderlance, so if you have a freakishly high CL you then have a freakishly high strength score for the purpose of using the lance. Even without CL raising cheese you will have a strength score of 32 at level 20.

Master spellthief-chameleon build for a CL of 26+4 (bead of karma) +1 (orange Ioun Stone) for a CL of 31 and a strength score of 43 when using a lance.


What is this reserves of strength you speak of, the only one I can see is a dragonlance feat that increases caster level.... but it be largely irrelevant for the spell thunderlance.
The lance deals 3d8 points of damage with the option to use your spell casting ability score modifier in place of strength. But there is no cap and the bonus you add is irrelevant to caster level.

He is refering to the Forgotten Realms version of Thunderlance. We have been speaking of the one in the Spell Compendium. There could certainly be confusion, based on who is using which one and why.

[bekeleven]

If anything, it should be a custom, handheld item, not a glove. You would effectively have a light sabre. How cheap could an artificer craft continous use thunderlances if optimized for the cheapest price possible, for the sake of outfiting an army of intelligent low-to-mid level casters?

Then multiply the price by by 2 (slotted to slotless) and say goodbye to free action draws (use-activated item). Why would you want that?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Note that an item of continuous or use-activated thunderlance - I recommend gloves - costs 56k.
You forgot to multiply the cost by 4 because the base spell has a duration measured in rounds per level 224,000gp.
That sounds fair.

[bekeleven]

You forgot to multiply the cost by 4 because the base spell has a duration measured in rounds per level 224,000gp.
That sounds fair.

Touche. brb, redoing a character's equipment...