Lie To Me (build challenge) Now in Phase 2

[Vhaidara]

READ OPENING POST FOR CHALLENGE RULES

Alright everyone, I have something of a build challenge. I want to make a con man.

Okay, with everyone's suggestions, I'm pretty sold on the idea of Factotum with a Marshal dip into Exemplar. Race will be either Half Elf for Sociable Personality and racial bonuses or Changeling for Persona Immersion and Minor Change Shape.

Now for Equipment. I know there's masterwork gear for all skills (though I am against it for skills like Diplomacy and Bluff. At least have to buy them on case-by-case), but I'm looking more at magic items, and especially ones that are usually overlooked or are from more obscure sources.

Original Discussion/rules
The rules:

1. Mundane (No casting).
2. Skill based (Bluff, Diplomacy, Forgery, Disguise, Gather Information are all on my list)
3. No Intimidate focus (this is the smooth talker and liar, not the threatener)
4. Anything on DnDTools (website) is allowed, as well as anything that you can give me a name, book, and page number for (I'll list if I decide to not use something)
5. I'm going for flavor and for playing the role I stated: a con man. Not a stealth guy, not a combatant. I want minimal combat ability.
6. Level: I'd prefer to look at lower levels, around 5, with projections to 10 or 15

Alright, now here are my thoughts so far

Race: All have potential. Human, changeling, and gnome standout to me. Human because human, Changeling for Rogue RSL, and gnome because gnomes are awesome.

Class: Rogue or factotum are my current thoughts. Ninja has crossed my mind. Beguiler and bard are thrown out with casting. Bonus points if you find a way to do it with a paladin.
[edit]Also bonus points if it includes functional truenaming while not focusing on it. mostly because i don't think that's a thing. Splashing truenaming.

Prestige: Spymaster has crossed my mind, and I've heard interesting things about Shadow Thief of Amn (can be refluffed).
[Edit] Exemplar is in the build.

Dips: At most, I would allow for 3 dip levels. I don't like cluttering my character sheet.

Flaws: assume none

[Edit] Alignment: Preferably Neutral, Good/evil also possible, but nothing too shiny/scummy

Houserules:
1. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275054
These.
2. Dodge and Mobility are one feat (if it comes up)


Side note: I'm trying to build someone like Neal Caffrey from the show White Collar. big part of the character is "I don't like guns".

Ideas covered:
Factotum into Exemplar for INT shenanigans
Marshal dip for CHA to CHA skills + Skill Focus (Diplomacy)

Rejected Material list:
Cabinet Trickster (feels a bit too unmundane)
Disciple prcs (Considerably too evil for the character)
Mountebank (Spellcraft requirement)
Incarnum, Psionics, shadowcasting, spellcasting, truenaming, flatulence, and ponies.
Warlock and DFA

[gorfnab]

Changeling X 5 (Rogue or Factotum)/ Spymaster 1/ Cabinet Trickster 5/ Mindspy 4 or 5/ Spymaster 4 or 5

[TroubleBrewing]

I think there's potential for Exemplar shenanigans, as well as Disciple of Mammon, if BoVD is allowed.

[Vhaidara]

Cabinet Trickster is a little too unmundane for my tastes.

Disciple of Mammon is interesting, but those entry requirements are a bit harsh.

Exemplar is an interesting one I hadn't thought of. But then I have to decide which skill to exemplar with. Or maybe go factotum/ rogue 10 int Exemplar 1 10 times, each for a different skill? :P

[Sith_Happens]

Don't forget Marshal so you can add your Charisma bonus to your Charisma bonus.

[Vhaidara]

Are there any known, quality homebrews for making marshals not have the proficiencies? Because it's a bit more combat ability than I want.

Although I supposed I could Chaos Shuffle them if all else failed.

[Heliomance]

You don't have to use those proficiencies. In the words of Vaarsuvius, there is a vast gulf between being proficient with a weapon and being good with a weapon.

[Vhaidara]

True, and I'm ppretty good at BSing my way through backstroy (I rebuilt a tiefling warlock into a hellbred paladin, complete with gear, via backstory bs).

I was just wondering if anyone knew of a trade out that I could make. If I can get an actual class feature in place of one I'll never use, that's a plus, right?

[ben-zayb]

Other unmentioned stuff:

Exemplar's persuasive performance is rip for abuse and it allows you to take 10 on many skills (Bluff and Diplomacy?), and the previously mentioned Marshal dip also gives you a free Skill Focus:Diplomacy (decent for a conman in itself) to qualify for it.
Mountebank dip grants Int to bluff, but requires the Deceitful feat (not too bad if you're a con man).
Factotum can get +Class Level to a skill check, among other awesome stuff. Being an INT based skill monkey also goes well with Exemplar and Mountebank.
Incarnum have Silvertongue Mask, although maybe this is too magical for you

[Prime32]

The Zhentarim Spy PrC could be worth a look.

[Vhaidara]

Well played sirrah. I just went and actually looked at Exemplar (i always thought it was a silly joke prcs, mostly because of the picture) and it is awesome. Though persuasive performance is a bit wasted, since one of my skills (probably my highest, given the 3 synergies + skill focus from marshal) actually is Diplomacy.

Current plan would be primarily factotum into exemplar with a dip into marshal.

Mountebank: I would go for it, but dipping prcs is a bit more out of the way. Also, the required Spellcraft ranks wouldn't fir the character.

Incarnum: Yep, you called it. To much magic-esque capability

Zhentarim Spy: Book, please?

[bekeleven]

Does Warlock count as a spellcaster? You can build one with all passive invocations, and one of them gives +6 to bluff, diplomacy and intimidate. And you can take it level 1.

[Vhaidara]

Tough one. On one hand, yes, I feel warlock is more magic capable than this character would be.

On the other, I REALLY like warlock.

I'd probably come down on the side of no. Things like that make the build much easier. It's part of why I bannned magic in the first place.

Also, on an unrelated note, If I were to add a combat theme to the character, I've decided what it would be. Iajutsu focus with Exemplar/Factotum. I can draw my fists, right?

[bekeleven]

Tough one. On one hand, yes, I feel warlock is more magic capable than this character would be.

On the other, I REALLY like warlock.

I'd probably come down on the side of no. Things like that make the build much easier. It's part of why I bannned magic in the first place.

Also, on an unrelated note, If I were to add a combat theme to the character, I've decided what it would be. Iajutsu focus with Exemplar/Factotum. I can draw my fists, right?

No, I don't think there are rules for that. Quickrazor is the general IF weapon, but there are others (cursed sword and katana bandolier being the most hilarious).

[Vhaidara]

I've talked to my local players (My group is really incestuous for players/DMs. 3 campaigns, and each DM is in the other 2 campaigns). We've all agreed that yes, you can do nonlethal IF with your fists. If for no other reason than walking up to a bureaucrat and delivering a pimp slap of great justice that knocks him into a coma for 3 weeks.

Also, I want to confirm that one of my major plans does in fact work.
Step 1: Use my ranks in Decipher Script and Knowledge (History), combined with a lot of spoken languages (high INT + investment in Speak Language) to become a respected authority on ancient writings of lost cultures.
Step 2: Use Forgery and Bluff to make said writings of lost cultures (and possibly make said lost cultures).
Step 3: Write history in my own image, and get paid to do it (Diplomacy + Appraise at any and all research institutes).

[geekintheground]

Are there any known, quality homebrews for making marshals not have the proficiencies? Because it's a bit more combat ability than I want.


neal has actually proven to be fairly proficient at using weapons, he just prefers not to. sorry i dont have any actual build advice, others seem to have that covered pretty well. diplomacy seems to be everyones favorite thing to optimize

[Vhaidara]

Again, fair point. And finally someone commenting on my goal :P

Also, in the unlikely event that I can talk a DM into it, how hilarious would it be if I took Leadership a bit later (more like 12 instead of 6) and started a thieves' guild?

[Pickford]

PHB, PHB II, and Complete Scoundrel used.

Human Rogue up to 20
Feats:
H - Lucky Fingers (CS)
1st - Wanderer's Diplomacy (PHB II)
3rd - Unbelievable Luck (CS)
6th - Make Your Own Luck (CS)
9th - Master Manipulator (PHB II)
10th - Slippery Mind (PHB)
12th - Investigator (PHB)
13th - Skill Mastery (PHB)
15th - Deceitful
16th - Skill Focus (Sense Motive)
18th - Skill Focus (Appraise)
19th - Skill Focus (Forgery)

Skill Tricks: (Feel free to get others, a Rogue is skill point rich after all, but these seem to be the most relevant to the theme)
2nd - Assume Quirk - Disguise 5 ranks
4th - Second Impression - Bluff 5 ranks, Disguise 5 ranks
6th - Social Recovery - Bluff 8 ranks, Diplomacy 5 ranks

I'd also consider taking a 1 level dip into Mountebank (Complete Scoundrel) for the Intelligence bonus to Bluff checks.

[Thurbane]

Some feats spring to mind:

Sociable Personality (1/2 Elf Only): reroll Diplomacy and Gather INformation checks (RoS)
Practiced Binder: for Naberius Silver Tongue ability (or a dip into Binder instead of the feats) - take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff, and make rushed Diplomacy checks without penalty.

[Diovid]

One prc that hasn't been named yet is the Charlatan. The Charatan is from Dragon Magazine #335. It is a completely mundane class focused on using bluff for a variety of things, amonst which is the ability to make people believe you can cast spells. See here for a handbook/overview: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8763.0

Possible Feats: Nymph's Kiss (BoED), Rapscallion (Dragon Magazine #315), Combat Panache (PHB II), Wanderer's Diplomacy (PHB II), Master Manipulator (PHB II), Fade into Violence (PHB II), Changeling racial feats (Races of Eberron / Player's Guide to Eberron).

Also check out the interaction skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel and Dragon Magazine #337.

You could make the character middle aged or older if you don't care about combat ability at all.

[Prime32]

Zhentarim Spy: Book, please?Player's Guide to Faerun.

[Vhaidara]

@Pickford: Nice build, definitely the strongest single class one I've seen. However, I've decided that going for an INT focus build comboing factotum and Exemplar will be stronger.
Also, I've already put Mountebank on the rejected list for the Spellcraft requirement

@Thurbane: Did someone just make an actual, good argument for 1/2 elf? Happy day!
Good, I knew I was missing something from Pact magic. And while it is magic, the particular flavor of Pact magic feels like it meshes with the character. Maybe not to the point of a binder dip, but if I can grab Naberius with feats, that would be great.

@Divoid: I've been trying to find Charlatan for a while, thank you. However, it just doesn't mesh well enough. It seems more built around making people believe the real you is a mage, but this built is around people not knowing there is a "real" you. It would have it's uses, but I don't think there are enough.

Nymph's Kiss: Do I have to maintain good alignment for this, since it's exalted? Or can I maintain the relationship through use of Bluff/Disguise?

Rapscallion: What does it do? I lack access to my friend with many issues of Dragon.

Combat Panache: Aside from Sneering Glower, it actually sounds perfect and exactly how I would fight if I was forced into it. there aren't any restrictions on use of tactical feats per fight, are there?

Wanderer's Diplomacy: Already on my list :P

Master Manipulator: Hell Yes.

Fade Into Violence: If I have room in the build for it.

Changeling feats: They all seem a little sub par when the build is already focusing on the related skills (Persona Immersion is the exception)

Age: I'd prefer to keep him young. He's a bit of a daredevil, doing the jobs as much out of arrogance and vanity as for money.

@Prime32: Seems like a 5 level version of Spymaster with slightly different prereqs. I'll stick with spymaster if I use them.

[Vhaidara]

Alright, sorry for double post, but I'm happy with the discussion so far on feats/races/classes/silliness (just want answers to the questions in my previous post).

Now, time for gearing up the character. Opening post updated to reflect that we are now in Phase 2.

[Prime32]

There's a spell on page 59 of City of Stormreach - cloak of Khyber - which you could have crafted into a continuous item for 15,000gp. It blocks your alignment from magical detection, and lets you fool true seeing if you've been in a form/disguise for more than 6 hours.


@Prime32: Seems like a 5 level version of Spymaster with slightly different prereqs. I'll stick with spymaster if I use them.Zhentarim Spy can give you way higher skill bonuses though (up to +31 Disguise/+27 Bluff/+27 Gather Information, compared to Spymaster's +4/+2/+2).

[Vhaidara]

I see 8/4/4, then 2 per 2 ranks (past first 2) in the relevant profession/craft skill.

Assuming level 15 (high end of what I've ever played), that 18 ranks in the relevant skill. That gives me 24/20/20 with those specific ones, whereas spymaster is more adaptable, as well as throwing in the Nystul's aura.

[Hurnn]

Human, Aristocrat and either Expert or Rouge for more skills.
The advantage of expert for skills is any 10 you want become class skills. The rouge stuff is more in keeping with the flavor and give you some added combat advantages.

Every skill you listed is on their class skill list.
they are on the 3/4 combat so you can fight but not be spectacular, are proficient with all armor shields simple and martial weapons.

You pump charisma and intelligence, all the skills you list are based on both and int gives you more skill points.

with the elite array I would go 12 10 13 14 8 15 bump cha at 4th to 16

28 skill points at 1st lvl, starting 2 feats are deceitful and diligent, 3rd feat is skill focus forgery.

[bekeleven]

Never go expert. Factotum is better.

And if you just want skills but are explicitly avoiding spellcasting, then factotum 1 with able learner = all skills are class skills forever.

[Vhaidara]

Guys, as i updated the OP to say, the class set is decided, I'm looking more into magic items now. Seeing if anyone knows of more obscure ones that usually slip under the radar because of spellcasting being broken in half.

Also, I am able to keep factotum. My usual group has a variant factotum that is fully mundane.

[Optimator]

Pathfinder Master Spy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/master-spy) is pretty cool, but obviously PF. Perhaps you could back-convert? Should be trivial enough.