Shaman?

[PraxisVetli]

Is there any non Deity based (by which I mean Cleric and Favored Soul) shamanistic classes? I'm looking at Spirit Shaman and Druid, is there anything else?

[chronomatophobe]

Other than shugenja (which are element specific) and clerics with relevant domains, nah. I think you've pretty much got the gist in terms of divine spellcasters.

[PraxisVetli]

Other than shugenja (which are element specific) and clerics with relevant domains, nah. I think you've pretty much got the gist in terms of divine spellcasters.

Dang.
Druids fine and all, but pretty commonly used, and Spirit Shaman doesnt seem like what I want.
Are there any Shamanistic PrC's out there?

[Cog]

Spirit Shaman doesnt seem like what I want.

If we knew why that doesn't work for you, it might lead to some better answers. What elements are you looking for that aren't covered by having Know: Religion on your skill list? Do you even necessarily want a caster?

[Xuldarinar]

If I may. here are a few that may work, some of which are pending on how you play them.

Binder: Tome of Magic (Entirety of Chapter 1)
Divine Mind: Complete Psionic (Pg. 9-13)*
Dragon Shaman: Player's Handbook 2 (Pg. 11-19)
Savage Bard: Unearthed Arcana (Pg. 50)[Perhaps best with divine bard variant mixed in, or applied to the cantor: DMG (Pg. 175)]
Totemist: Magic of Incarnum (Pg. 29-32)
Totem Barbarian: Unearthed Arcana (Pg. 48-49)

*Remove Deity requirement for mantle selection, narrow mantle list to, at most: Communication, Creation, Death, Elements (or the various element mantles from web enhancement), Guardian, Life, and Natural World.

These PrCs may work as well, re-fluffed or not.
Demonbinder: Drow of the Underdark (Pg. 72-76)
Prophet of Erathaol: Book of Exalted Deeds (Pg. 66-67)

Edit: A refluffed shadowcaster could work as well. Most casting classes, given some refluffing and maybe some fine tuning, could be used.

[PraxisVetli]

If we knew why that doesn't work for you, it might lead to some better answers. What elements are you looking for that aren't covered by having Know: Religion on your skill list? Do you even necessarily want a caster?

I just dislike Druids from past experience, and while there's no particular reason why I can't take Cleric, its going to be a cohort, and I know my DMs afraid of me having a tier 1 minion.
Fluff wise, I'm looking for a real voodoo-istic, swamp-witchy type deal.
Curses and maybe some Crystal Ball type Divination. Lot of chucking exotic monkey bones in the fire and deciding how to control troops based off the smoke shapes kind of thing. Some melee capability is preferred, but not ENTIRELY necessary.
Basically, my Lizardfolk Tribe leader is looking for his mystical Second in command.
..
.....
I really should just Cleric, shouldn't I?
If so, what would be good domains?
Really, Really favoring fluff over mechanic on this one.

[Xuldarinar]

I just dislike Druids from past experience, and while there's no particular reason why I can't take Cleric, its going to be a cohort, and I know my DMs afraid of me having a tier 1 minion.
Fluff wise, I'm looking for a real voodoo-istic, swamp-witchy type deal.
Curses and maybe some Crystal Ball type Divination. Lot of chucking exotic monkey bones in the fire and deciding how to control troops based off the smoke shapes kind of thing. Some melee capability is preferred, but not ENTIRELY necessary.
Basically, my Lizardfolk Tribe leader is looking for his mystical Second in command.
..
.....
I really should just Cleric, shouldn't I?
If so, what would be good domains?
Really, Really favoring fluff over mechanic on this one.

Have you considered the witch then? Dungeon Master's Guide: Page 175

[Vaz]

Well, there's the Shaman from Oriental Adventures.

[Eldaran]

Why not just go cloistered cleric (so no heavy armor) and have them act like a witch? Clerics don't have to be running around in full plate shouting about how righteous and holy they are (or unrighteous and unholy), they can certainly be a mysterious shamanistic type.

For domains, plenty apply: the elemental ones, plant, oracle, or trickery all seem like good choices.

[WbtE]

Dare I suggest the adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm)? :smallbiggrin:

[PraxisVetli]

If I may. here are a few that may work, some of which are pending on how you play them.

Binder: Tome of Magic (Entirety of Chapter 1)
Divine Mind: Complete Psionic (Pg. 9-13)*
Dragon Shaman: Player's Handbook 2 (Pg. 11-19)
Savage Bard: Unearthed Arcana (Pg. 50)[Perhaps best with divine bard variant mixed in, or applied to the cantor: DMG (Pg. 175)]
Totemist: Magic of Incarnum (Pg. 29-32)
Totem Barbarian: Unearthed Arcana (Pg. 48-49)

*Remove Deity requirement for mantle selection, narrow mantle list to, at most: Communication, Creation, Death, Elements (or the various element mantles from web enhancement), Guardian, Life, and Natural World.

These PrCs may work as well, re-fluffed or not.
Demonbinder: Drow of the Underdark (Pg. 72-76)
Prophet of Erathaol: Book of Exalted Deeds (Pg. 66-67)

Edit: A refluffed shadowcaster could work as well. Most casting classes, given some refluffing and maybe some fine tuning, could be used.

Does there exist a ACF for Bardic Music?
It's something I would almost never use, and its too massive a Class feature to just ignore.
Otherwise, Savage Bard sounds cool

[PraxisVetli]

Dare I suggest the adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm)? :smallbiggrin:
Actually thought about it.

Why not just go cloistered cleric (so no heavy armor) and have them act like a witch? Clerics don't have to be running around in full plate shouting about how righteous and holy they are (or unrighteous and unholy), they can certainly be a mysterious shamanistic type.
For domains, plenty apply: the elemental ones, plant, oracle, or trickery all seem like good choices.
This.. maybe this.

Have you considered the witch then? Dungeon Master's Guide: Page 175
Yeah, don't particularly like witch. dunno why.

also, sorry for double post, phones pissy.

[Xuldarinar]

Does there exist a ACF for Bardic Music?
It's something I would almost never use, and its too massive a Class feature to just ignore.
Otherwise, Savage Bard sounds cool

Might need to go to the dragon magazine for this one. I know of ACF that give Bardic Music differing abilities, and you could certainly discuss with a DM for an appropriate replacement, but I know of nothing from any of the books actually replacing it.

For example: In Dragon Magazine 337, you have the harbinger variant. It replaces bardic music's abilities with: Instill Fear, Dishearten (target cowers), Dirge of Binding (paralyzes the target), and Drain Prowess (Bestows 2 negative levels for as long as the the harbinger preforms).

Edit:


Yeah, don't particularly like witch. dunno why.


Fair enough.

[PraxisVetli]

I'll run it by him, but not holdin my breath.
Thanks though, cuz both Cloistered Cleric and Savage Bard both look really good!

[Xuldarinar]

You are most welcome.

If I may, I have a suggestion for a route to go if you have a very permissive DM.


Base: Bard
Variants: Cantor (DMG), Savage Bard (UA)
Additional Modifications: Swap Bardic music for Soulbinding (1 vestige only, progresses vestige level at the same rate as casting).

Result: you have minor divine spellcasting (Cast via Cha, Spells known and per day as bard, list as cleric but modified by savage bard) and the ability to contact and bind spirits (Vestiges), starting at 2nd level. You got plenty of skills, you aren't too hardy or fragile, and its not like you are gaining all of the ins and outs of the binder class since you would be limited to only one. Pick mostly spells that suit the flavor (Healing spells, subtle abilities, things that work with nature).


Edit: More clearly mapped out below.

Alignment: Must be Chaotic. Stopping being chaotic prevents advancement
Hit Die: d6

Skills: As Bard modified by Savage Bard.

Table 1-1: Savage Bind Cantor
Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|Maximum Vestige Level
1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Bardic knowledge, illiteracy|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Soul binding (1 vestige)|3|0|-|-|-|-|-|1st
3rd|+2|+3|+1|+3|-|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|1st
4th|+3|+4|+1|+4|-|3|2|0|-|-|-|-|2nd
5th|+3|+4|+1|+4|-|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|2nd
6th|+4|+5|+2|+5|-|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|2nd
7th|+5|+5|+2|+5|-|3|3|2|0|-|-|-|3rd
8th|+6|+6|+2|+6|-|3|3|3|1|-|-|-|3rd
9th|+6|+6|+3|+6|-|3|3|3|2|-|-|-|3rd
10th|+7|+7|+3|+7|-|3|3|3|2|0|-|-|4th
11th|+8|+7|+3|+7|-|3|3|3|3|1|-|-|4th
12th|+9|+8|+4|+8|-|3|3|3|3|2|-|-|4th
13th|+9|+8|+4|+8|-|3|3|3|3|2|0|-|5th
14th|+10|+9|+3|+9|-|4|3|3|3|3|1|-|5th
15th|+11|+9|+5|+9|-|4|4|3|3|3|2|-|5th
16th|+12|+10|+5|+10|-|4|4|4|3|3|2|0|6th
17th|+12|+10|+5|+10|-|4|4|4|4|3|3|1|6th
18th|+13|+11|+6|+11|-|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|6th
19th|+14|+11|+6|+11|-|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|6th
20th|+15|+12|+6|+12|-|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|6th

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: As bard.

Spellcasting: As bard in terms of casting ability, spells per day and spells known, and always having a verbal component, but with cleric list modified by savage bard spellcasting, casting is divine, and thus you cannot cast spells of alignment descriptors opposed to your alignment.

Illiteracy: As barbarian.

Soul Binding: As Binder but you may bind no more than 1 vestige and advances as listed on the class table above.

[IdleMuse]

Savage Bard is definitely the right answer to this, or Savage + Divine Bard if that's what you want; if the standard 'Bardic Music' schtick isn't what you're looking for, there are PLENTY of alternative class features, including most notably, in Unearthed Arcana, one that switches out Bardic Music and Bardic Knowledge for a lot of the druidy stuff like an Animal Companion and Wild Empathy etc. Seems to be almost perfect for what you're looking for.

Alternatively, look for ACFs that switch out the specific music effects you dislike; choose Perform: Shamanic Ritual or whatever as your music form, and take musics like Inspire Awe instead of Inspirue Courage (Dragon Magic)

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=7a452da09ee185915c3e949cf08df4 59&topic=7908.0 is a good list of ACFs

[PraxisVetli]

@ Xuldarinar
That is excellent, I'm gonna run it by him tonight or tomorrow.
Though I think I should go look up how Binder works.
@Idle muse
Suddenly an image of a lizardfolk in all ragtag robes, cross-legged on the back of his mondo turtle.
I like it.



In all seriousness, why was this so difficult.
Why is there not a "Shaman" (short of OA, which in my experience a lot of DMs don't allow) class already? Its a very common concept, they really should've made one. [/rant]

[Zombulian]

@ Xuldarinar
That is excellent, I'm gonna run it by him tonight or tomorrow.
Though I think I should go look up how Binder works.
@Idle muse
Suddenly an image of a lizardfolk in all ragtag robes, cross-legged on the back of his mondo turtle.
I like it.



In all seriousness, why was this so difficult.
Why is there not a "Shaman" (short of OA, which in my experience a lot of DMs don't allow) class already? Its a very common concept, they really should've made one. [/rant]

Wait wait wait. Why would a DM not allow the OA Shaman?

[Gwendol]

Probably because he doesn't have the book...

[Cog]

The shaman, seeing her enemies closing, begins to hum under her breath. That hum builds to a mutter, then to a chant: she calls on the ancient dead of battles long gone, whose blood still boils beneath the earth; or she calls on the spirits of fire, who breath energy into dead matter. Such ancient forms are tenuous at best, seen only by her - but all can feel their effect. Spirit of warriors, spirits of flame; all are drawn to forged steel, sheathing her allies' weapons, and pouring their wrath into the shaman's foes.

If that sounds like something a shaman might do: the spirits of warriors are Inspire Courage, and the spirits of fire are that with Dragonfire Inspiration.

[nedz]

There are lots of Bard ACFs, here are some

Bardic Sage (UA, p 49): Adds additional spells and bonus to knowledge in exchange for reduced Bardic music abilities.
Healing Hymn (CC, p 47): lose fascinate, boost natural healing and healing spells.
Hymn of Fortification (CC, p 47): lose inspire competence, use bardic music to generate protection from evil type effects.
Inspire Awe (DrM, p 13): Gain ability to inspire awe instead of courage.
Inspire Hatred (EoE, p 21): lose inspire greatness, gain inspire hatred
Inspire Turning (ECR, p 206): Replace Inspire Competence with the ability to boost an ally's ability to turn undead by spending a bardic music attempt they gain +2 levels on their turn check.
Nature Bard (UA, p 58): gain animal companion, nature sense, resist nature's lure, and wild empathy as a druid. Lose bardic knowledge, inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics.

(Nature Bard is not the same as Savage Bard)
Many of these swap one type of music for something else.

[Maginomicon]

The filidh (Dragon Magazine #324 page 90) and anagakok (Dragon Magazine #344 page 104) are shamanistic wizards.

[Andezzar]

Does there exist a ACF for Bardic Music?
It's something I would almost never use, and its too massive a Class feature to just ignore.
Otherwise, Savage Bard sounds coolDo you not want to use Bardic Music because of what it does or because it is singing and/or harping?

If it is the latter, nothing prevents you from using your bardic "music" with Perform: Oratory.

[LTwerewolf]

Shaman from OA?

[PraxisVetli]

Define "Illiterate" in DnD.
Does that mean scratch marks and shapes in the sand are ok, or does it mean nothing at all?

[Xuldarinar]

Define "Illiterate" in DnD.
Does that mean scratch marks and shapes in the sand are ok, or does it mean nothing at all?

To quote the Player's Handbook:

"Illiteracy: Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.
A barbarian who gain s a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had."

Im going to say that even scratch marks and shapes count. They may have come up with such a thing on their own, meaning something to them, but nothing they could use to communicate with others effectively. Maybe they could draw simple pictures and maybe manage to convey a message but.. the alphabet would be beyond them.

[Coidzor]

Being illiterate doesn't mean you can't draw a picture(that's craft(drawing) or profession(artist), IIRC). It means you can't caption it. Nor does it mean you can't do math, you just can't show your work except verbally.


Is there any non Deity based (by which I mean Cleric and Favored Soul) shamanistic classes? I'm looking at Spirit Shaman and Druid, is there anything else?

What do you want to be able to do?

Shaman(OA) Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248262) might be of interest, at least for showing what OA Shaman can do. Most of the updating of an OA Shaman is taken care of with a few tweaks of spells, several of which are suggested in the handbook, cribbing animal companion from the druid as a no-brainer update, and giving it some mix of spells from the Spell Compendium similar to the way it's suggested for the Wu Jen and Shugenja classes if you're using the Spell Compendium in order to expand the spell list a bit.

May or may not OK additional domains for the Shaman to take on a case-by-case basis as they come up.

[PraxisVetli]

Whoa, I turn around for a day and my thread doubles.
Sorry for slow reaction time, internet's shoddy.
Here we go

Wait wait wait. Why would a DM not allow the OA Shaman?
Because he doesn't allow Oriental Adventures in its entirety. Totally have the book, have damn near all the books, he just doesn't like it. I had enough fun getting him to approve ToB. (Till I proved that it wasn't broken, it was necessary).

The filidh (Dragon Magazine #324 page 90) and anagakok (Dragon Magazine #344 page 104) are shamanistic wizards.
No Dragon Magazine for this DM.
Thanks though.

Do you not want to use Bardic Music because of what it does or because it is singing and/or harping?

If it is the latter, nothing prevents you from using your bardic "music" with Perform: Oratory.
Well, side, I always wondered, it does say "Bardic Music." Can you Perform: Dance Bardic Music? Bardic Dance?
Anyway, don't want it because that's not what my bard's for. I'm not looking for a buffer, I want a mystical, shamanistic advisor who will idealy never enter the battlefield. I want the Jafar to my Sultan, just not powerhungry and evil (well, maybe evil, but you know) and my king isn't a bumbling fool.


To quote the Player's Handbook:

"Illiteracy: Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.
A barbarian who gain s a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had."

Im going to say that even scratch marks and shapes count. They may have come up with such a thing on their own, meaning something to them, but nothing they could use to communicate with others effectively. Maybe they could draw simple pictures and maybe manage to convey a message but.. the alphabet would be beyond them.
Well, I was thinking almost Neanderthal (sp??) level cave drawings. Like drawing 3 moons instead of writing "Three nights".


To just recover my concept, I'm running a Lizardfolk Crusader. He has no tribe (all killed by Hobgoblins). He's trying to make a tribe, and after reading up on Lizardfolk, Shamans have a high standing in their society. But I don't want to play a Shaman, so I'm getting one as a cohort. Someone with some casting, who can help advise. I want some ragtag cloaked, dirty, "magical" incense- reeking magicman who sits in his tent all day fasting and telling the future from drug induced visions. Someone who can perform "rituals (banning someone from the tribe, fertility dances, dance in front of fire for much kill this hunt)", stuff like that.
But I'd like to stay away from the tier 1's like Cleric and Druid, and Savage Divine Nature Bard seems like it totals into what I need.
It gives me the neccessary spells like Summon Nature's Ally, Calm Animals, from Savage, with Divine making it all Wisdom based and tossing inRemove Disease, Commune, and Restoration.
Nature Bard is in because the whole, "I'm to old and feeble to walk so I ride my giant turtle" is awesome. Wild Empathy and the like are just icing on the cake.