DFAdept/Warlock Theurge

[Falcon X]

I've been trying to find a thread on this and can't.

So, Dragon Magic says of Dragonfire Adepts trying to Prestige:

Dragonfire Adepts benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have a level advancement benefit of "+1 level existing arcane spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing spellcasting class." A Dragonfire Adept taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any other benefits of that level increase, but she does gain an increased caster level when using her invocations and increased damage with her breath weapon. Levels of prestige classes that provide +1 level of spellcasting effectively stack with the Dragonfire Adept's level to determine her breath weapon damage and save DC. She also gains new invocations at each prestige class level as though she had risen a level in the Dragonfire Adept Class.

It appears that you can enter Eldritch Theurge progressing Warlock on the Invocation side and Dragonfire Adept on the Arcane side. Thus, you progress your Invocations, Draconic Invocations, Breath Weapon, and Eldritch Blast.

So:
1. Is that possible RAW, or am I reading it wrong?
2. Do the spell-like abilities of the invocations and draconic invocations work with each other in the Spellblast, Eldritch Spellweave, and Greatreach Blast class abilities, or are those abilities just worthless?
3. Is there a viable build here, or is it just suck? I mean, you can't use breath weapon and Eldritch blast at the same time, and you're just gaining some extra at-will abilities instead of getting class abilities in some other class.

[Thurbane]

You need to be "able to cast second level spells", so neither Warlock nor DFA would qualify you by themselves.

A one level dip into Beguiler, Warmage or Dread Necromancer plus the Versatile Spellcaster feat should do it though.

[Forrestfire]

I'm fairly sure that Warlocks and DFA qualify for Precocious Apprentice, though, so that could work.

[Tommy2255]

I'm fairly sure that Warlocks and DFA qualify for Precocious Apprentice, though, so that could work.

requires "spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15"

arguably, that would require actual spellcasting, not just an arcane caster level. It would probably depend on the DM, but it's clearly not something they were considering when they wrote it.

[Raendyn]

You need to be "able to cast second level spells", so neither Warlock nor DFA would qualify you by themselves.

A one level dip into Beguiler, Warmage or Dread Necromancer plus the Versatile Spellcaster feat should do it though.

You seriously believe that any DM would allow this? I mean, cm' on, you can't apply the prc on the classes that don't qualify for it...

I should read whether the invocations can do the trick on their own though..

[Thurbane]

You seriously believe that any DM would allow this? I mean, cm' on, you can't apply the prc on the classes that don't qualify for it...

I should read whether the invocations can do the trick on their own though..
Sorry? I think you'll find that it's all RAW.

Sure, a DM could refuse it, but how is a DFA/Warlock theurge more problematic for a game than a Warlock/full caster theurge? :smallconfused:

[Raendyn]

Sorry? I think you'll find that it's all RAW.

Sure, a DM could refuse it, but how is a DFA/Warlock theurge more problematic for a game than a Warlock/full caster theurge? :smallconfused:

I know its RAW, i never said otherwise. I asked if you believe that a DM would allow it.

IMO, FUN>RAI>RAW, and as we call such type of solutions to my group a "legal cheat" is still a cheat.

Its more proper to convince him to allow invocation effective spell lvls to count for spell casting prereqs than that stupid "legal cheat".

I just think of the fluf behind the char "Hi, I am a guy that draws his powers from his dragons and planar ancestors!(cool!) But, I also learnt a few 1st lvls spells and a 2nd lvl one too, so I can continue advancing my heritage(lawls)" :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

I know its RAW, i never said otherwise. I asked if you believe that a DM would allow it.

IMO, FUN>RAI>RAW, and as we call such type of solutions to my group a "legal cheat" is still a cheat.

Its more proper to convince him to allow invocation effective spell lvls to count for spell casting prereqs than that stupid "legal cheat".

I just think of the fluf behind the char "Hi, I am a guy that draws his powers from his dragons and planar ancestors!(cool!) But, I also learnt a few 1st lvls spells and a 2nd lvl one too, so I can continue advancing my heritage(lawls)" :smallbiggrin:
Poster asked for advice, specifically if it was legal by RAW. I offered him a RAW alternative. Invocations do not count as spellcasting by RAW.

Do I believe a DM would allow it? Most I know personally (including myself) would.

I would hardly call it a "cheat". You can play however you want in your games, of course, but when someone asks for help/advice and cites RAW, I will generally offer a RAW alternative. I also don't particularly appreciate you saying my suggestion was stupid. :smallconfused:

[nedz]

I know its RAW, i never said otherwise. I asked if you believe that a DM would allow it.

IMO, FUN>RAI>RAW, and as we call such type of solutions to my group a "legal cheat" is still a cheat.

Its more proper to convince him to allow invocation effective spell lvls to count for spell casting prereqs than that stupid "legal cheat".

I just think of the fluf behind the char "Hi, I am a guy that draws his powers from his dragons and planar ancestors!(cool!) But, I also learnt a few 1st lvls spells and a 2nd lvl one too, so I can continue advancing my heritage(lawls)" :smallbiggrin:

We have no idea what houserules you run, but they are likely different to the OPs. This is why we discuss options in terms of RAW, because that's like The rules. Now if the OP had stated some weird houserule we would have responded with that in mind, but he didn't.

[Xuldarinar]

Shame there is no official theurgic class to mesh these two together, but such is life.

In reference to a previous comment, how about this?
"I am an individual who's family, and thus my very soul, is bound to a powerful (Chaos/Howling/Pyroclastic/Rust/Styx/Tarterian/ect.) dragon. Because of this bond I am capable of drawing upon the invocations of both dragons and the planes. To reach my full potential and integrate both elements, I must first understand the fundamentals of arcane magic."

[Gemini476]

I know its RAW, i never said otherwise. I asked if you believe that a DM would allow it.

IMO, FUN>RAI>RAW, and as we call such type of solutions to my group a "legal cheat" is still a cheat.

Its more proper to convince him to allow invocation effective spell lvls to count for spell casting prereqs than that stupid "legal cheat".

I just think of the fluf behind the char "Hi, I am a guy that draws his powers from his dragons and planar ancestors!(cool!) But, I also learnt a few 1st lvls spells and a 2nd lvl one too, so I can continue advancing my heritage(lawls)" :smallbiggrin:

I'd allow such things off I were to run a game. Honestly, Theurges in general are pretty unplayable without early entry.

Also, your classes are not your character. A DFA/Warlock/Beguiler/Theurge could be a Wizard just as well as he could be a draconically empowered individual.
Actually, that's a pretty decent fluff justification. Warlocks can already be from a fey heritage rather than demonic, so having it be because one or your ancestors did some powerful Dragon Pact-ish ritual makes perfect sense.
The Beguiler magic is either just more inherited abilities (oh hey sorcerer) or the results of your experiments in more traditional magics or because you were a Beguiler before your draconic powers awoke or Whatever else you want.

Fluff is mutable. A Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 does not need to be a Conan wannabe any more than a Wizard 3 needs to be Merlin. The Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 could just as well be a strong and ferocious knight (think the Cleganes, perhaps) and the Wizard could be an artificer who creates wondrous items to slay monsters with.
Similarly, a Rogue does not need to be a criminal: they could just as well be an aristocrat or assassin.

Your class is not your character, it's just a package of thematically appropriate abilities.

[Snowbluff]

You are all so wrong. Qualifying is a feat away. It's another if you think the rules are shaky.


At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (but not an invocation-using class) to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

But the premise is impossible. Maybe you should have read the subject material, hmm? :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

Maybe it would be better to wait for a campaign that allows for gestalt characters, and then play your DFA Adept/Warlock gestalt?

[prufock]

You seriously believe that any DM would allow this? I mean, cm' on, you can't apply the prc on the classes that don't qualify for it...

Yes. If you qualify for the class, you qualify for the class - whether it's by virtue of feats, racial abilities, class abilities, or otherwise. I am a DM and I would allow it, as would my group's other DM and many others, I'd wager.

[Forrestfire]

requires "spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15"

arguably, that would require actual spellcasting, not just an arcane caster level. It would probably depend on the DM, but it's clearly not something they were considering when they wrote it.

Whoops, I was going by the version they published online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a). Magical Training and Precocious Apprentice works though, if setting-specific feats are allowed.


You seriously believe that any DM would allow this? I mean, cm' on, you can't apply the prc on the classes that don't qualify for it...


Personally, I'm having trouble trying to think of a situation where a DM wouldn't allow this. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Snowbluff has it right - ET specifically forbids using an invoker on the arcane side, and that is more specific than DFA's allowance so it trumps.

[Falcon X]

Snowbluff has it right - ET specifically forbids using an invoker on the arcane side, and that is more specific than DFA's allowance so it trumps.

Not sure. RAI, certainly. It isn't built to support DA. But RAW...
The Dragonfire Adept class goes out of it's way to make sure that it's treated as an Arcane class as far as prestige class progression is concerned.

Thus, a question is, do Draconic Invocations=Invocations?
I'm inclined to say yes, because they frequently shorthand "draconic invocations" to "invocations".

So, that being said:
Which trumps which? The Theurge's statement that it doesn't allow Invokers? Or the DA's statement that seems to rewrite the rules of the Prestige it's going into?

[Xuldarinar]

Not sure. RAI, certainly. It isn't built to support DA. But RAW...
The Dragonfire Adept class goes out of it's way to make sure that it's treated as an Arcane class as far as prestige class progression is concerned.

Thus, a question is, do Draconic Invocations=Invocations?
I'm inclined to say yes, because they frequently shorthand "draconic invocations" to "invocations".

So, that being said:
Which trumps which? The Theurge's statement that it doesn't allow Invokers? Or the DA's statement that seems to rewrite the rules of the Prestige it's going into?

Hate to say it, but:

Eldritch Theurge's Spellcasting Entry:
"At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (but not an invocation-using class) to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.-"

It does not work, regrettably, by RaW. One could certainly develop a basic dual progression PrC to advance both, but as far as official content ET is not valid for this.


Edit:
If I'm not mistaken, Warlocks affect the rules identically to DAs in this matter, thus the PrC's rule holds. If there is a difference, then we may have some ground to stand on permitting the dual advancement by RaW.

[Thurbane]

I would take a guess and say they put that provision in the class to prevent people from trying to double advance their Warlock abilities at each PrC level.

[CyberThread]

this may seem wierd, but what are you going to do with the combo fire/laser beam?

[MeeposFire]

I would take a guess and say they put that provision in the class to prevent people from trying to double advance their Warlock abilities at each PrC level.

True but it does sadly prevent you from using it for this purpose.

A DM should allow the entry though not just due ot RAW as it is not a balance problem and the player clearly is doing it for fun. Two invocation user classes would be weaker than 1 invocation/1 spell caster side.

I would say though that after playing a DFA you usually want to stick it out. You want the breath effects and you don't get those using a prc. DFA is just so good for a DFA that usually you don't even multiclass except for a few exceptions (such as getting eventual epic spell casting from a halfling PRC).

[Psyren]

I agree that it wouldn't hurt to houserule it. And while you're under the hood you may as well tweak the class features so you can add eldritch essences to your breath weapon or something.

[Larkas]

Hmmmm... Any way for a DFA/Warlock to qualify for Ultimate Magus?

[Chronos]

You could probably qualify using Magical Training etc., but I don't think it would be worthwhile, since I don't think there's any way to get either to count as a prepared casting class, so that side of the advancement would be wasted.

[Larkas]

Hmmm, indeed.