Tarquin and Eugene

[Ceaon]

So, while Tarquin and Ian have been compared quite a lot already (Law versus Chaos), I'm interested in two other opposing fathers in the OotS: Tarquin and Eugene (Evil versus Good).

While I assume most of you will pretty much agree that neither is a great rolemodel for fathers out there, what could they learn from each other? Why is one still be considered "Good" while the other is "Evil"? Who do you as a reader want to see get punished more, and why?

Also, will Roy reevaluate his relationship with his own father seeing how much more of a failure Tarquin is as a father?

[Harbinger]

Eugene is "Good" because while Eugene was kind of a jerk and not the best father, he did good things during his life. Nothing we saw Eugene do, at least while he was alive, was "evil". Tarquin on the other hand kills people and ruins lives when it suits him, rapes women, eats sapient creatures, and burns slaves alive. He also runs an evil empire with his best friend, a genocidal vampire.

That said, I don't think that Tarquin will affect Roy's opinion of his own father. Eugene was neglectful and never appreciated Roy, and the existence of an outright abusive, manipulative father doesn't change that.

[Kish]

Also, will Roy reevaluate his relationship with his own father seeing how much more of a failure Tarquin is as a father?
I'm reasonably certain Roy is intelligent enough to see the fallacious nature of, "I should reconsider my view on my father; he may have treated me like the only thing that matters about me is how well I do or don't fit into the role he has planned for me, and he might think the destruction of the entire world is unimportant compared to his personal desires, but he never actually set out to kill any of my girlfriends and/or cut off my hand."

There is always a worse. That does not mean nothing is ever bad. Who has a legitimate reason to be seriously unhappy about a car accident: The person who lost one arm, the person who lost both arms, the person who lost both arms and a leg, or the person who lost all four limbs (but still has intact eyes)?
The correct answer is, of course, "All four." The worst answer I've seen would be, "None, since there are people in the world with neither limbs nor eyes."

[Evandar]

Kish, you are cool beans. Perhaps the coolest. You are Dire Arctic Beans.

[Aolbain]

Eugene, while being a complete **** from time to time, haven't killed Julia yet. Nor have he threatened to maim Roy and kill the rest of the Order + Celia.
So, point Eugene.

[zimmerwald1915]

Eugene, while being a complete **** from time to time, haven't killed Julia yet. Nor have he threatened to maim Roy and kill the rest of the Order + Celia.
So, point Eugene.
He did kill Eric, albeit through gross negligence rather than any purpose or plan.

[Ceaon]

I'm reasonably certain Roy is intelligent enough to see the fallacious nature of, "I should reconsider my view on my father; he may have treated me like the only thing that matters about me is how well I do or don't fit into the role he has planned for me, and he might think the destruction of the entire world is unimportant compared to his personal desires, but he never actually set out to kill any of my girlfriends and/or cut off my hand.

Point. But you brought up something that I think may help me formulate my question better on-screen, what we know about both characters seems very similar. Eugene's alignment is a bit of a case of an informed ability, not really shown to us, only told to us. Their behaviour is quite similar. So my question is more: will Roy get new insight about the relationship with his father now that he saw a similar, but worse, relationship in Tarquin and Elan?

[tulebast]

So, while Tarquin and Ian have been compared quite a lot already (Law versus Chaos), I'm interested in two other opposing fathers in the OotS: Tarquin and Eugene (Evil versus Good).

While I assume most of you will pretty much agree that neither is a great rolemodel for fathers out there, what could they learn from each other? Why is one still be considered "Good" while the other is "Evil"? Who do you as a reader want to see get punished more, and why?

Also, will Roy reevaluate his relationship with his own father seeing how much more of a failure Tarquin is as a father?

It remains to be seen if Eugene is "good". While he's not "evil", he's certainly not "lawful" either. Barring out of comic posts by the Giant (which I don't have the time to look up at the moment) all we truly know about him in comic is that he's prevented from his final reward by the blood oath and that other Good creatures don't seem to like him much (not a glowing endorsement by that side). It's possible that the forces of good have him on lock down as we speculate (as he was supposed to haunt Roy when Xykon left Gobbotopia, although it is possible he's bored and just not paying attention). We don't know if he gets to climb the LG/NG/CG mountain(s) or not. I think a good (heh) case could be made that he's much more like his daughter Julia, true neutral.

I'm not sure they could learn that much from each other about parenting, as each is more concerned about themselves than with their respective children.

[King of Nowhere]

the similarities between tarquin and eugene stem from both trying to railroad their sons into what they believed they should have done without taking into account the son's desire. that's pretty much the only similarity.
On eugene, that was innested over a good, if somewhat distant and jerkish, person. on tarquin, that was innested over a complete monster with a patina of likability on the outside. that's the big difference.
In fact, they are quite opposite on that. eugene is good under a bad outside, while tarquin is bad under a good outside. if you met them once, you will be inclined to believe eugene was evil and tarquin good. you have to know them to see the reversal.

[The Pilgrim]

Big difference between Eugene and Tarquin:

Eugene did let Roy become a fighter, against his own wishes. He even paid the fees of Fighter College for him.

As opposite of having killed Roy to provide Julia with an example of what happens when you don't follow Daddy's orders.

[Harbinger]

He did kill Eric, albeit through gross negligence rather than any purpose or plan.

Wait, what? When was this established?

[Kish]

Roy blames Eugene for it. It has never been established explicitly where Eric's death falls on the scale of "Eugene could not possibly have averted it" to "Eugene is actually a lot more responsible for it than Roy thinks he is."

[Keltest]

Roy blames Eugene for it. It has never been established explicitly where Eric's death falls on the scale of "Eugene could not possibly have averted it" to "Eugene is actually a lot more responsible for it than Roy thinks he is."

The implication as I understood it is that Eugene was careless and left something magical out that he shouldn't have and Eric got into it when he wasn't being watched. Id be willing to be it was alchemically related, because its hard to imagine a little kid like that activating any other sort of dangerous magical device on himself.

[King of Nowhere]

Big difference between Eugene and Tarquin:

Eugene did let Roy become a fighter, against his own wishes. He even paid the fees of Fighter College for him.

As opposite of having killed Roy to provide Julia with an example of what happens when you don't follow Daddy's orders.

Well, I disagree that tarquin killed nale just because he disobeyed, or to set an example. he killed nale because nale actively plotted against his empire, killed his best friend and most valuable asset, and refused a last attempt at pacification.
If roy had killed some old adventuring companion of eugene, tried to killed eugene, and when confronted by eugene refused to give himself to the authorities (which, in tarquin's case, was tarquin himself), then eugene would have been perfectly justified in murdering his son, and in fact it would have been naive and irresponsible (albeit understandable) to let him go.
Tarquin committed countless gratuituos or semi-gratuitous atrocities, I always find baffling that people keep pointing at the only one that was justified.

EDIT: in fact, tarquin gave nale much more freedom than most people admit. nale went on the eastern continent, and tarquin let him go. We know that with his resources he could have just scried, teleported, and killed him. he was willing to let nale go his way, until he started messing in tarquin's backyard.
And we've seen from his day with elan that he may even have been a good and caring father (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html). Yeah, a pretty bad example to the child in term of education to moral values, but caring nonetheless.
Problems started with nale when nale went back in the continent to mess up with tarquin, and with elan pretty much immediately because it was clear elan was always fated to interfere with tarquin's plans. Basically, problems started because of business. as long as it was just pleasure, tarquin loved his sons. but business before pleasure, and when nale killed malack, when elan was going to eventually fight tarquin, it became business. and tarquin removed the obstacles to business.

[Keltest]

Well, I disagree that tarquin killed nale just because he disobeyed, or to set an example. he killed nale because nale actively plotted against his empire, killed his best friend and most valuable asset, and refused a last attempt at pacification.
If roy had killed some old adventuring companion of eugene, tried to killed eugene, and when confronted by eugene refused to give himself to the authorities (which, in tarquin's case, was tarquin himself), then eugene would have been perfectly justified in murdering his son, and in fact it would have been naive and irresponsible (albeit understandable) to let him go.
Tarquin committed countless gratuituos or semi-gratuitous atrocities, I always find baffling that people keep pointing at the only one that was justified.

EDIT: in fact, tarquin gave nale much more freedom than most people admit. nale went on the eastern continent, and tarquin let him go. We know that with his resources he could have just scried, teleported, and killed him. he was willing to let nale go his way, until he started messing in tarquin's backyard.
And we've seen from his day with elan that he may even have been a good and caring father (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0750.html). Yeah, a pretty bad example to the child in term of education to moral values, but caring nonetheless.
Problems started with nale when nale went back in the continent to mess up with tarquin, and with elan pretty much immediately because it was clear elan was always fated to interfere with tarquin's plans. Basically, problems started because of business. as long as it was just pleasure, tarquin loved his sons. but business before pleasure, and when nale killed malack, when elan was going to eventually fight tarquin, it became business. and tarquin removed the obstacles to business.

Tarquin was actually even trying to save Nale right until the end. Nale flipped out on him, saying that he didn't want his protection, help, or anything. He effectively said "youre nothing to me". Tarquin didn't waste any tears over him, but he certainly tried until it became clear that his love was not appreciated.

[Heksefatter]

I really don't see much of a comparison. Eugene may have his faults. You can argue that he is not lawful or that he is not good. But he is not:

- A mass murderer of innocent people.
- A rapist.
- A torturer.
- A literal tyrant.

And sorry for if I omitted any of Tarquin's more disgusting properties. There are plenty in any case. Tarquin is a monster. The only doubt is whether he is quite reaches Xykon-level when it comes to evilness, but that leaves plenty of room for him being extremely evil.

Eugene is selfish and petty, but he is not a monster. He's a horrible father, but he is not a total abusive narcissist like Tarquin either.

[Kish]

Tarquin didn't waste any tears over him, but he certainly tried until it became clear that his love was not appreciated.
And, in a strange coincidence*, Elan doesn't appreciate Tarquin's "love" either, and is forcing Tarquin to crush him, just like Nale did!

*Meaning something that in no way reflects badly on Tarquin or the nature of the "love" in question.

[SowZ]

Eugene Greenhilt. Out to prove that being a 'Good' person and a bad person is not mutually exclusive.


And, in a strange coincidence*, Elan doesn't appreciate Tarquin's "love" either, and is forcing Tarquin to crush him, just like Nale did!

*Meaning something that in no way reflects badly on Tarquin or the nature of the "love" in question.

It's more his parenting. I wouldn't expect him to lay down while both his sons try to murder him, his friends, and topple down everything he has built in his life. But, the reason the situation has come to that is as a direct result of Tarquin's previous choices. There is a reason very few fathers are ever put in that position.

My point is basically this. That Tarkin is willing to kill his sons when they are coming after him so vehemently is not as revealing as the fact that his sons both want him dead in the first place.

[Keltest]

Eugene Greenhilt. Out to prove that being a 'Good' person and a bad person is not mutually exclusive.



It's more his parenting. I wouldn't expect him to lay down while both his sons try to murder him, his friends, and topple down everything he has built in his life. But, the reason the situation has come to that is as a direct result of Tarquin's previous choices. There is a reason very few fathers are ever put in that position.

My point is basically this. That Tarkin is willing to kill his sons when they are coming after him so vehemently is not as revealing as the fact that his sons both want him dead in the first place.

Elan doesn't particularly want him dead though. He recognizes that its a likely outcome, but not one that he especially wants. Nale is a bit of a grey area. I doubt he wants him dead simply because that would imply that he wants something to do with his father (in this case, that something would be his death, but still).

[SowZ]

Elan doesn't particularly want him dead though. He recognizes that its a likely outcome, but not one that he especially wants. Nale is a bit of a grey area. I doubt he wants him dead simply because that would imply that he wants something to do with his father (in this case, that something would be his death, but still).

Nale clearly hated his father, despite claiming he wanted his dad's nothing. He would have plotted against him fairly soon, I'm sure. And Elan is actively planning on starting a revolution and toppling all of his dad's work. While Tarquin's death isn't the intended outcome, it may as well be.

[Mike Havran]

Tarquin is much more interesting. Plenty of fathers have Eugene's mindset. Tarquin's mindset? Not so common.

[jogiff]

Well, I disagree that tarquin killed nale just because he disobeyed, or to set an example. he killed nale because nale actively plotted against his empire, killed his best friend and most valuable asset, and refused a last attempt at pacification.
If roy had killed some old adventuring companion of eugene, tried to killed eugene, and when confronted by eugene refused to give himself to the authorities (which, in tarquin's case, was tarquin himself), then eugene would have been perfectly justified in murdering his son, and in fact it would have been naive and irresponsible (albeit understandable) to let him go.
Tarquin committed countless gratuituos or semi-gratuitous atrocities, I always find baffling that people keep pointing at the only one that was justified.

EDIT: in fact, tarquin gave nale much more freedom than most people admit. nale went on the eastern continent, and tarquin let him go. We know that with his resources he could have just scried, teleported, and killed him. he was willing to let nale go his way, until he started messing in tarquin's backyard.

If Eugene's old adventuring buddy was (very openly) trying to murder Roy (and planned to keep his skull as a trophy) and Roy killed him (in a preemptive strike) I don't think Eugene would have been justified in murdering Roy. I don't think it would have even crossed his mind. I don't think he would even entertain the notion of allowing his friend to kill Roy.

And I don't think that Eugene would be "naive and irresponsible" for not trying to murder his son for killing a legitimate threat to his life.

As for Tarquin giving Nale freedom, I don't think he really did. Why didn't Tarquin just scry on Nale and tp in to kill him? Maybe Z regularly cast Nondetection on them. Or Mage's Private Sanctum. Or maybe Nale had a lead bunker that he stayed in until he thought Tarquin would give up. Or maybe he used False Vision in order to trick Tarquin into thinking he was dead. Or maybe he noticed the scrying attempt (DC 20 INT check) and used illusions. Or maybe Tarquin decided to wait a few days but by then the Linear Guild was under the Cloister spell. Or maybe he decided not to scry on Nale for narrative reasons (just like he refused to tell anyone that Nale was a twin).

Because once he caught Nale he immediately began muscling into the party.

[Lexible]

Eugene, while being a complete **** from time to time, haven't killed Julia yet. Nor have he threatened to maim Roy and kill the rest of the Order + Celia.
So, point Eugene.

But on the other hand he was a magic user. You know, like V, so: probably chaotic evil or neutral evil pretending to be good.

ducks

[Keltest]

But on the other hand he was a magic user. You know, like V, so: probably chaotic evil or neutral evil pretending to be good.

ducks

but hes in the good limbo...

[Kish]

Elan doesn't particularly want him dead though. He recognizes that its a likely outcome, but not one that he especially wants. Nale is a bit of a grey area. I doubt he wants him dead simply because that would imply that he wants something to do with his father (in this case, that something would be his death, but still).
You're taking Nale's words as oddly lacking in nuance.

[King of Nowhere]

If Eugene's old adventuring buddy was (very openly) trying to murder Roy (and planned to keep his skull as a trophy) and Roy killed him (in a preemptive strike) I don't think Eugene would have been justified in murdering Roy. I don't think it would have even crossed his mind. I don't think he would even entertain the notion of allowing his friend to kill Roy.

Well, nale was planning to kill malack since he was 9. I doubt mmalack did anything wrong to him by then, at least not wrong enough to justify that kind of response. We're talking about Nale here. he's certainly not an innocent victim, he's at least as evil as his father and he fully deserved to die.


As for Tarquin giving Nale freedom, I don't think he really did. Why didn't Tarquin just scry on Nale and tp in to kill him? Maybe Z regularly cast Nondetection on them. Or Mage's Private Sanctum. Or maybe Nale had a lead bunker that he stayed in until he thought Tarquin would give up. Or maybe he used False Vision in order to trick Tarquin into thinking he was dead. Or maybe he noticed the scrying attempt (DC 20 INT check) and used illusions. Or maybe Tarquin decided to wait a few days but by then the Linear Guild was under the Cloister spell. Or maybe he decided not to scry on Nale for narrative reasons (just like he refused to tell anyone that Nale was a twin).

Don't you think that, if tarquin had wanted, he hadn't the resources to track nale? he has two near epic casters at his disposal, and the resources of a whole nation. he could have just set some spies on nale. shouldn't be too difficult to find: follow the trail of bodies, if they are still warm nale is close.

Tarquin's motivation are much more complex that the plain "I''m soooo evil and I want to ccontrol everything" that many people ascribe him. And rich stated somewhere that he genuinely loved his sons, in his own twisted way. Although I can't find the link in the index, but I've seen other people linking to it.

[Kish]

I think Tarquin was always confident he controlled Nale. He didn't "let Nale go" so much as "let Nale get the childish rebellion out of his system for a few years." But we saw the results of Tarquin finally accepting that Nale didn't want to be his pawn; if Nale had been on another continent when Tarquin accepted that, perhaps the knife that killed Nale would have been wielded by Jacinda instead, but there was never a real possibility of Tarquin letting Nale have his own life.

[Sir_Leorik]

He did kill Eric, albeit through gross negligence rather than any purpose or plan.

Yes, but he immediately tried to get his friend Myrtok to Raise Erik. And it was an accident, not on purpose. Accidents happen to Lawful Good people, as well as to Chaotic Evil people.


Eugene's alignment is a bit of a case of an informed ability, not really shown to us, only told to us.

Go and read the tavern scene where Eugene tells Right-Eye to abandon his plans for revenge and to go live a normal life. Then tell me that's not Lawful Good behavior. Eugene may be a jerk, but that's probably due to his having low Charisma, or no ranks in Diplomacy, not due to his being Evil.


Their behaviour is quite similar.

I must have missed the scenes where Eugene casually murders his wife. Or kills someone who annoys him. Or where he tore the internal organs out of a living sapient creature just to have an exotic meal.


So my question is more: will Roy get new insight about the relationship with his father now that he saw a similar, but worse, relationship in Tarquin and Elan?


Big difference between Eugene and Tarquin:

Eugene did let Roy become a fighter, against his own wishes. He even paid the fees of Fighter College for him.

As opposite of having killed Roy to provide Julia with an example of what happens when you don't follow Daddy's orders.

The real comparison should be between Eugene and Ian, one Lawful Good, the other Chaotic Neutral. Compare the scene where Eugene refused to cast Scry for Roy and Roy's Archon vs. the scene where Ian decides to rot in prison rather than let his daughter rescue him while she's dating Elan.

Eugene and Roy were both dead, and from Eugene's point of view, there was nothing Roy could do to defeat Xykon or save the Gates while he was dead. That's a bit stubborn, but a valid point. In the end, Roy was not able to affect anything on the Material Plane as a spirit.

Ian was starving, sick, and in danger of dying in an arena. But it was more important to him that he not be told what to do. His autonomy is more important than his actual freedom, as insane as that sounds.

Eugene eventually agreed to cast Scry, but only after Roy realized that there was no point to fighting with his father. It wouldn't bring them back to life or defeat Xykon. Roy decided to be a better person. Eugene, then insisted that he cast Scry, due to his ego, but he lived up to his promises.

Haley refused to accept Ian's stubbornness. Her mom is dead, and she didn't want her father dying too. So she went against his wishes. Unlike Roy, she isn't at a point where she can ignore Ian's nonsense and move on with her life, especially when her dad's life is in jeapordy. So she told Roy: get my dad and uncle out, because you owe me. And Roy agreed because he's Lawful Good.

[Kish]

Go and read the tavern scene where Eugene tells Right-Eye to abandon his plans for revenge and to go live a normal life. Then tell me that's not Lawful Good behavior.

I'd say "read the whole scene, and then tell me it is," but I gather you actually would, so let's call the whole thing off.

(Being able to mouth wise-seeming platitudes and claim a devotion to one's family that one's actions utterly fail to support is not proof of good alignment--particularly when there's an excellent chance the platitudes were a pure excuse for actual motives much closer to, "Xykon? That was so ten-years-ago! Bother someone else!")

Edited to add: Not that, whether he actually deserves the Lawful Good label or not, Eugene deserves to be put on the same level as Tarquin does. No one deserves that. Not even Tarquin.

[Sir_Leorik]

I'd say "read the whole scene, and then tell me it is," but I gather you actually would, so let's call the whole thing off.

(Being able to mouth wise-seeming platitudes and claim a devotion to one's family that one's actions utterly fail to support is not proof of good alignment--particularly when there's an excellent chance the platitudes were a pure excuse for actual motives much closer to, "Xykon? That was so ten-years-ago! Bother someone else!")

Eugene strikes me as someone who aspires to live up to an ideal which he fails to attain, but he doesn't realize that. He's not particularly nice, but he's not really nasty and his advice to Right-Eye did change Right-Eye's life for the better, until Xykon ruined it. Eugene is in some ways a hypocrite, but he's not actually a bad person. Sara Greenhilt was very clear that she loved him once upon a time, even though their marriage wasn't exactly free of troubles.