Questions from a First Time Martial

[7th son of sons]

So, I've been playing dnd for a little longer than a year, and have played three characters, An Exalted Deeds Druid(A solid Start), A Rogue(esque) Pirate(such fun), and a Thrown Weapon Master (Silly and Sillier). I have decided for an upcoming campaign I will be trying a martial class, but hopefully with little to know ToB, as I used this with my Thrown Weapon guy. So, having been on these forums a few times, I've seen suggestions but I'd like a few explanations for things.

1.) Why does everyone claim that Lion Totem Barbarian (Com. Adventurer(?)) gets pounce at first level? I don't see it anywhere.

2.) Why does everyone so handidly recommend the Shock Trooper Feat? I understand leap attack, but I don't see anything nearly as strong about Shock Trooper.

3.) Where can I find the Martial Monk substitution levels? I don't own too many books, and I can't seem to come across it on the internet.

4.) What is more effective, Tripping, Intimidating, Sundering, Bull-Rushing, Going for Damage (lol), or some other tactic I'm unaware of.

5.) Any Ideas for a fun, non-ToB martial build?

sorry if it seems like a lot of questions, but I'd like to get into this campaign and have fun, as the group I play with is only low to med optimization and we play to do fun stuff. Case In Point: My friends first Character was a Dragonborn Bear Monk, who spoke perfect common. We've gotten better since then, but still...

[Hangwind]

Non-ToB? MADNESS!!!!!

[Snowbluff]

1) Lion Spirit Totem, Complete Champion.

2) Tank AC to attack so your penalty from Power Attack doesn't suck.

3) Invisible Fist is Exemplars of Evil. Meh. I think anyone who has levels in monks should give me one of their hands to sate my anger.

4) Tripping and Damage, but see below.

5) First of all, just play a warblade.

Barring that, Goliath Dungeon Crasher Fighter 2/Something3/Warmind5 with Knockback. Sweeping strikes to throw multiple enemies into walls for extra damage.

[Silva Stormrage]

So, I've been playing dnd for a little longer than a year, and have played three characters, An Exalted Deeds Druid(A solid Start), A Rogue(esque) Pirate(such fun), and a Thrown Weapon Master (Silly and Sillier). I have decided for an upcoming campaign I will be trying a martial class, but hopefully with little to know ToB, as I used this with my Thrown Weapon guy. So, having been on these forums a few times, I've seen suggestions but I'd like a few explanations for things.

1.) Why does everyone claim that Lion Totem Barbarian (Com. Adventurer(?)) gets pounce at first level? I don't see it anywhere.

2.) Why does everyone so handidly recommend the Shock Trooper Feat? I understand leap attack, but I don't see anything nearly as strong about Shock Trooper.

3.) Where can I find the Martial Monk substitution levels? I don't own too many books, and I can't seem to come across it on the internet.

4.) What is more effective, Tripping, Intimidating, Sundering, Bull-Rushing, Going for Damage (lol), or some other tactic I'm unaware of.

5.) Any Ideas for a fun, non-ToB martial build?

sorry if it seems like a lot of questions, but I'd like to get into this campaign and have fun, as the group I play with is only low to med optimization and we play to do fun stuff. Case In Point: My friends first Character was a Dragonborn Bear Monk, who spoke perfect common. We've gotten better since then, but still...

1: Its the spirt lion totem barbarian in complete champion that grants pounce. Not the lion totem (Yes confusing I know)

2: Shock trooper is good because it essentially takes the risk out of using power attack as you can channel the penalty to hit to ac. Now you can just tank your ac to 0 or negative numbers and power attack for full. That + Leap attack means you will hit for absurd amounts of damage and probably hit.

3: Martial Monk is in dragon magazine I believe, also its fairly unbalanced for most purposes and many DM's won't allow it.

4: Depends on the situation, intimidation locking can be pretty effective until enemies start being immune to mind affecting abilities. Tripping similarly, damage tends to be pretty good all around but charging can be stopped somewhat easily and uberchargers are a pain for your DM to deal with so don't build one of those :smalltongue:

5: Hm, well I always liked bard builds that buff Dragonfire Inspiration but thats probably not what your looking for. I also like Wildshape Ranger into Master of Many Forms for a transformation based melee fighter. Getting wartroll for is unbelievably awesome.

Edit: Gah swordsaged!

[Zanos]

1)Lion Totem is on pg. 46 of Complete Champion. I recommend combining it with the whirling frenzy variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm) if you do dip barbarian 1.

2)Shock Trooper grants you the Heedless Charge tactical maneuver, which allows you to power attack for as much as you want and take no accuracy penalty. This will nuke your AC, but you were probably going to get anyway, and in exchange you get to add tons of damage to your leap attack pouncing power attack charge.

3)Martial Monk is in Dragon Magazine, issue 310.

4)Most of the options you suggested can be made very viable. I'd say the "strongest" pure martial build is probably just straight damage, though. With the right build you can nuke anything in one round.

5)Uh...a gish? Non-ToB martial characters tend to invest lots of resources into one trick, and when that isn't relevant they suck. So if you're adamant about not using tome of battle, you're pretty much stuck with one or two options whenever you're in combat.

EDIT: Get out of here swordsages, OP said no ToB.

[Greenish]

5. Barbarian can work as a base for a fun build. See the handbook here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525), the Fear handbook here (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0), and might as well poach some tricks from here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1062806).

[Darrin]

1.) Why does everyone claim that Lion Totem Barbarian (Com. Adventurer(?)) gets pounce at first level? I don't see it anywhere.


*Spirit* Lion Totem can be found in Complete Champion. You trade Fast Movement for Pounce (Ex). There are a couple other totems in Unearthed Arcana that it can be combined with (notably, Wolf Totem Barbarian).



2.) Why does everyone so handidly recommend the Shock Trooper Feat? I understand leap attack, but I don't see anything nearly as strong about Shock Trooper.


One of the few drawbacks to the Ubercharger combo is you have to tank your entire BAB to maximize your damage. Now this normally isn't a problem, as it can be pretty easy to stack a bunch of minor attack bonuses together or optimize your Str into the stratosphere, but Shock Trooper allows you to dump that huge attack penalty into your AC. This means that not only can you now smash things for 300+ damage, the chances of missing your attack go way down. And at 300+ damage, very few things are going to be left alive to capitalize on your "broadside of a barn" AC.



3.) Where can I find the Martial Monk substitution levels? I don't own too many books, and I can't seem to come across it on the internet.


Dragon #310. I think you can order back issue PDFs from Paizo.



4.) What is more effective, Tripping, Intimidating, Sundering, Bull-Rushing, Going for Damage (lol), or some other tactic I'm unaware of.


Tripping: Probably the most effective tactic, and possibly is the least feat-intensive, so you get good consistent payout for a modest investment of resources. It's not really a "big sexy" tactic, but it gets the job done.

Intimidating: When it's optimized, can be really scary (pun intended), but it has two big problems. 1) A wide variety of creatures are immune to mind effects. 2) If it works, all the mopping-up afterward becomes tedious and anticlimactic.

Sundering: Two big problems. 1) Naked monsters don't typically carry or wield anything worth sundering. 2) If it's worth sundering, then it's more valuable as LOOT.

Bull-Rushing: Generally not worth it, unless you're bull-rushing someone off a cliff, Dungeon-Crashing, or getting it as a "chaser" effect (via Knock-Down).



5.) Any Ideas for a fun, non-ToB martial build?


Flaming Homer, the Bowling Ball of DOOM!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22)

Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588)

Fistbeard Beardfist. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116838)

Jack B. Quick. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick)

TWF Swift Hunters. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16094742&postcount=12)

[OldTrees1]

In general non-ToB martial characters are defined by looking for synergy between feats and class features to try to get the most out of each action. Usually with "chaser" or "triggered" effects.

Personally I like the Triggered feats: Knockback(Bullrush attempt if you hit with a Power Attack), Knockdown(Trip attempt if you deal 10 damage) & Three Mountain(Fort save vs Nausea)

The first 2 levels of Barbarian have some nice goodies:
1)Barb1: Rage variants: Personally I like Whirling Frenzy for the +2AC, Extra Attack and +4 Str. [UA/SRD]
2)Barb1: Lion Spirit Totem [CC] trade Fast Movement for Pounce
3)Barb2: Wolf Totem[UA/SRD] trades Uncanny Dodge for Improved Trip(Ignoring the Combat Expertise and Int13 prerequisites!)

Don't be afraid to multiclass into Fighter 2 and Feat Rogue 2[UA trade Sneak Attack for Fighter bonus feat progression]

[Togo]

I'm quite fond of the high charisma barbarian of Kord. In order:

Barbarian1/marshal 3/fighter2/occult slayer2/divine crusader1/contemplative6 etc.

Alternatively, marshal 2/paladin2/fighter2/pious templar2/divine crusader1/divine oracle2/contemplative1/etc.

Max charisma, not strength. You want a reasonable strength (I did it with 14), and an INT of at least 13 to qualify for improved trip. Sell down wis, don't bother with much dex since you'll be wearing heavy armour.

At low levels you're using marshal to get arts of war, boosting your trip, disarm, etc by your charisma bonus. Take the feats for improved trip, and a decent reach weapon, and you'll be causing havok. Try to get enlarge person cast on you whenever possible, buying your own wand is reasonable. As a backup to trip, you have heavy armour, power attack, and rage, and can do reasonable damage and stand in the front line.

At the same time you're also boosting either the initiative of the entire party (marshal), or your saves (paladin)


Move on to mid level, and your late fighter levels give you access to shock trooper, which works particularly well with... a trip fighter. You pick up improved bull rush too, although the usefulness of that depends very much on how your DM designs the terrain of his encounters. Occult slayer gives you spell turning, or pious templar gets you spells and mettle. Divine crusader with competition domain gives you +1 on all opposed checks (so trip, disarm, bull rush, bluff, etc.) and some good spells.

At higher level you get additional domains from contemplative and maybe divine oracle. If you take the good domain you can even go for sacred exorcist later on. The basic competition domain nets you useful spells like prayer, divine power and righteous might, which you're casting far more often than a cleric typically would. I've left the higher levels vague, and you need to decide whether you want to max out getting as many domains as possible, move into sacred exorcist for the abilities, hold out for the divine oracle capstone ability, or whatever.

It's a very fun build. It allows you to be a melee front-liner and be the party face, possibly even a credible leader. It means you're not competing directly if the party has another melee type focused on damage, it means you can pull off some strange stunts in mid-battle because you have large bonuses to manoevres and dex checks, and give you options to do other than just hit something with your sword. You'll also be quite spell resistant, with decent saves from moving classes and either spell turning or mettle and evasion. At the high end you'll even get 9th levels spells around about the same time the dedicated spellcasters do, although they probably won't be ones you ever would have chosen.

The biggest problem is ranged combat. You can use a bow perfectly competently, you just have no particular advantage in doing so. Also bear in mind that you won't be dishing out quite as much damage. I can't say the difference was all that noticeable, since you're mostly losing some strength, and most damage comes from power attack anyway, but you won't be one-shotting giants in the same way as you might.