[3.5] Psi form changing, what?

[Menzath]

okay so stumbled on this trick.

Diamonds are Forever-

Diamonds are Forever is a method to truly, really, permanently change your form. This requires you really, really lose a level (Restoration won't help), as it's by death. But the way it works is as follows:
1) Get the form with abilities you want (whether that's by Mind Switch, Metamorphosis, or any other method.
2) While in said form, manifest Astral Seed
3) Let the method of switching forms expire.
4) Kill yourself.
5) Make a new body from your astral seed - which is "a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed (the crystal itself breaks down and becomes a part of the new organic body). When the tenth day ends, you completely and totally inhabit the new body. You possess all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested, at one level lower, but you have none of your equipment."

Congrats - it cost you a level, but hey: Instant change of shape. If you're an Egoist-17 with Greater Metamorphosis, this lets you get Supernatural abilities, too.

So I was wondering, if you metamorph into an object, like say A sword or bow, do you then qualify to be enchanted, or for powers to effect you like psychokinetic weapon as well as other goodies? Cause let's face it, when the BSF's sword starts to glow, you never expect it to manifest crazy powers. Or to fly around and, make copies of itself among other things.

[Chronos]

It doesn't work. Astral Seed is a perfect duplicate, which means it also duplicates the remaining duration on your form. Once the duration runs out, you turn back, just like you would without Astral Seed.

[Psyren]

Whatever your DM lets you get away with. There are no rules to cover this situation because Astral Seed was highly unlikely intended to function that way.

Note that a restrictive reading of "exact duplicate" could mean "you come back in the form of your original body with an active metamorphosis making youan object" - since, technically speaking, that's what you truly were at the time. Which would mean that the metamorphosis would be subject to expiration just as it was when you manifested it initially.

EDIT: second half ninja'd by Chronos.

[Rubik]

It doesn't work. Astral Seed is a perfect duplicate, which means it also duplicates the remaining duration on your form. Once the duration runs out, you turn back, just like you would without Astral Seed.Your form is the exact duplicate. The magics on you, however, are not. Nowhere does it say that magical effects are duplicated, just that your form is identical.

[Psyren]

Your form is the exact duplicate. The magics on you, however, are not. Nowhere does it say that magical effects are duplicated, just that your form is identical.

Right - but the gray area comes in when your form is due to magic. (well, psionics.)

[Menzath]

The power does seem to state, Exact duplicate.. Of your body.
Your body I think would not include non-permanent effects.
But yeah it does tend to be whatever your DM let's slide.

Edit: the side questions seem to not have gotten an answer though, would you be considered a weapon(object) from that point on?
Also would you now be considered a living object and not subject to disintegrate anymore?

[Vaz]

This again falls under rules interpretation.

If your DM ruled yes under the former, and you stayed in the same form for all that time, then yes, you could be Enchanted, provided, of course, that you have become a Masterwork Item.

[Psyren]

Edit: the side questions seem to not have gotten an answer though, would you be considered a weapon(object) from that point on?
Also would you now be considered a living object and not subject to disintegrate anymore?

1) I did answer it - "it's up to your DM." That's really the only answer for this situation.
2) Disintegrate works on both objects and creatures just fine.

[TuggyNE]

2) Disintegrate works on both objects and creatures just fine.

Only unliving objects.
When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter.

Still, if you're not a creature, chances are you're not doing any adventuring, since you have no Wis or Cha score and are thus not sentient.

[Psyren]

Only unliving objects.

He doesn't stop being a creature simply because he's changed into an object so that's moot.

[Menzath]

Still, if you're not a creature, chances are you're not doing any adventuring, since you have no Wis or Cha score and are thus not sentient.

The power(metamorphosis) does not mention anything about loosing any ability scores due to being in the new form it also mentions that you keep your ability to speak and all your "normal" senses.
And yeah not moving may be an issue solo. But that's what leadership is for. Or thrall herd.
Or psychokinetic weapon power. Is persistent power still a valid metapower since it never had a 3.5 update?

Edit: and as for the power and what you are the only text I can find is this, which refers to the then "you" as an object.

As an inanimate object, you lose
all mobility. You retain your normal
senses and your ability to speak. You
can manifest a power if you make a
Concentration check (DC 20 + power
level); however, doing so ends the du-
ration of this power. If you take dam-
age while in the form of an object,
your actual body also takes damage
(but the object’s hardness, if any, pro-
tects you).

[Fax Celestis]

Note that through a particularly oblique rules lawyer interpretation, mind switch et al won't work for astral seed, since it specifies you return in an exact duplicate of your body, which the body you possess via mind switch is someone else's body you've stolen or borrowed.

[Phelix-Mu]

They just are stupid. "Object" and "creature" were originally set up to be exclusive states. You couldn't be both. Later powers and spells that muddied the issue are ill-conceived, as the thrust of this thread suggests.

A more rigorous approach would be to consider a person transmuted into an object to be some kind of construct or plant creature (the two of which cover just about all objects). Intelligent objects should also be considered constructs, imho.

An object with a Wis/Cha is by definition not an object. I would rule that such an object can be enchanted only if such enchantments would work on a construct (like maybe some version of hardening on constructs that have a hardness rating). Otherwise there is some pretty intense grey-area that I see emerging, along with a few bits of WBL-mancy that might be useful.

Meh.

[Menzath]

True, but in the astral seed power is does mention using mind switch while as a seed and then destroying the seed to permanently take over the body you switched too.

[TuggyNE]

The power(metamorphosis) does not mention anything about loosing any ability scores due to being in the new form it also mentions that you keep your ability to speak and all your "normal" senses.

No, it doesn't. Presumably that's because you don't lose those things, because you're not actually a real object, just a lot like one.


Edit: and as for the power and what you are the only text I can find is this, which refers to the then "you" as an object.

Mostly it refers to you as having the "form" of an object, which makes a lot more sense.


Intelligent objects should also be considered constructs, imho.

Fortunately, they already explicitly are. (They lack HD, however, for no very good reason.)

[Phelix-Mu]

Fortunately, they already explicitly are. (They lack HD, however, for no very good reason.)

Hmm. Are intelligent weapons viable targets for the various construct templates and Incarnate Construct spells? That might yield some interesting results.

[TuggyNE]

Hmm. Are intelligent weapons viable targets for the various construct templates and Incarnate Construct spells? That might yield some interesting results.

With no particular HD, I have no idea what the result would be. Incarnate Construct wouldn't work, though, since they're not humanoid-shaped, not even slightly. (Making an enormous slotless magic item roughly in the form of a person and then making it intelligent might work, though, I guess.)