Monk Fighter Concept

[tricktroller]

Monk 2 fighter 8

Flaw1 TWF
Flaw2 Combat Reflexes
Human SUperior disarm (Free AoO on disarm)
1st Improved disarm
Monk1 Combat expertise
Monk2 improved trip
3rd Snacth weapon (song and silence)
Fighter 1 Oversized TWF
Fighter 2 Throw anything
6th Combat instincts
Fighter 4th point blank shot
F6 Imp TWF
9th Double Hit
F8 Far shot


So basically this guy has an "open hand" at all times by twf with his unarmed strikes. He uses his weapon to disarm his opponents, grabs their weapons in his offhand and get a free attack which he uses to throw the weapon at one of his friends or simply to throw it away, then uses his twf attacking to trip them and then punch them.

What do you think?

also eventually when he gets an attack of opportunity he gets to hit with both weapons giving this guy stupid amounts of attacks against opponents that have weapons he can disarm.

[Flickerdart]

You just combined three of the game's worst combat styles - Monks, TWF without a source of bonus damage, and archery. Take a good hard look at the numbers and you'll see exactly why this doesn't work.

[Greenish]

What do you do if "hit things" is not a viable option?

[Ivanhoe]

It probably depends on the campaign.
I like what this concept could do in a swashbuckling campaign with lots of humanoid/medium-sized opponents wielding one-handed weapons.

Nice idea, will think on some possible improvements!

[tricktroller]

Did you even read what my character does or just his feats?

The whole point of the guy is he fights, takes your weapons away and throws them. Also he gets tons of extra attacks, using a longsword/better weapon at disarming that I haven't found yet, (which consequently I realize I didn't add that he is using), and he will eventually be punching your leg tripping you, then backhand grabbing your sword and throwing it at your friend and then stomping on your head all as part of one attack from a full attack flurry.

Snatch weapon

If you succeed in disarming an opponent and you have a free hand, you can grab the weapon yourself instead of letting it fall. If you can wield that weapon in one hand, you can immediately make a single attack with it, though you suffer the usual penalties for a second attack with an off-hand weapon.

Basically I want this guy to be a kung fu movie character without tome of battle at least for the martial arts part.

and to answer you Greenish , I do what every fighter ever does and I stand there and let the Wizard fix it.

[EugeneVoid]

Bloodstorm Blade?

I'll agree with Flickerdart.
This looks really weak.

What if you can't disarm it? (EG: the tons of monsters who will slap you death with their fists)
Disarming unarmed, gets -4 mods.
Your ability scores will be stretched really thin.

Disarm with sword, catch, and attack?
Seems really cool, but, in practice, will likely be fairly weak considering the opportunity cost.

[WbtE]

Came here looking for a guy custom-built to fight Monks. Not entirely disappointed. :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

Did you even read what my character does or just his feats?

The whole point of the guy is he fights, takes your weapons away and throws them. Also he gets tons of extra attacks, using a longsword/better weapon at disarming that I haven't found yet, (which consequently I realize I didn't add that he is using), and he will eventually be punching your leg tripping you, then backhand grabbing your sword and throwing it at your friend and then stomping on your head all as part of one attack from a full attack flurry.
TWF: -2 to hit, Dexterity requirement.
Flurry of Blows: -2 to hit, can't actually use it if you're wielding the wrong weapons, so that really puts a damper on your plan.
Using a light or one-handed weapon: -4 to -8 to Disarm, effectively.
So you're leeching points away from your Strength and attack bonus, and then expect to succeed on Disarms or Trips, or hitting anything? No, you're not going to do any of that stuff. You're going to whiff ineffectually against any CR-appropriate encounter even when fighting humanoid NPCs.

[tricktroller]

Ok so how would you make it work?

As opposed to merely telling me that its terrible offer some advice dude. And using a twohander is not the only way to disarm people. His stats are

Str 18
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 18
Cha 13

[Flickerdart]

Nice stats, but not nice enough. Before I can properly assess the blistering failure of this build I'll need sources for Superior Disarm and Combat Instincts, which I can't find.

But let's throw this guy a bone - he finds himself within reach of a CR-appropriate weapon-using enemy, so he can actually execute a full attack and get any use out of TWF. It's also his turn. There aren't many CR10 weapon-using bruisers - in core, there are just the Fire Giant and Noble Salamander, but let's take pity on the guy and also throw an orc war chief (10th level barbarian) into the mix. Using the same stat array as the "build", he has a starting Strength of 22 (18, +4 for race) and wields a one-handed weapon because the DM is really trying to make this guy shine in his niche. Of course, as a 10th level character, the barbarian has more than enough money to purchase a Locked Gauntlet, so we'll see how that goes.

So, a Disarm check is opposed attack rolls. Your guy has a +4 from Strength, another +4 from Improved Disarm, +9 from BAB, -2 for TWF, for a total of +15. Your three opponents have the following bonuses:

Fire Giant +28: +20 base, +4 for two-hander, +4 for large
Salamander +31: +23 base, +4 for two-hander, +4 for large
Orc Warchief +28: +10 BAB, +8 Strength, +10 Locked Gauntlet


The character must get at least 14 more on the d20 roll than his two weakest opponents, and must get 17 more than the Salamander. I'm no statistician, so someone else can crunch the math, but this is supposed to be his niche, and he needs a +13 to his Disarm check just to be even with random guys off the street.

Before you start building up your "combo" you need to actually make sure part 1 works. Boost your size, that's a +4. Wield a two-handed weapon (there are a few ways of getting spare hands), that's another +4. Don't waste your time on TWF, that's +2. Bam, we're just 4 points short of being relevant on the battlefield half the time.

[tricktroller]

So all of these calculations include +10 from a locked gauntlet?

[The Trickster]

So all of these calculations include +10 from a locked gauntlet?

I think just the barbarian has the gauntlet. The other two are just naturally hard to disarm.

[tricktroller]

If as a dm you feel the need to gimp a disarming monk by giving your dude one of the most ridiculous items to wear ever, then I personally think you have issues you need to deal with. The concept of the character is cool which is what I was going for. Doing something to intentionally beat a character that isn't hyper optimized is just petty.

[Greenish]

Well, the orc could also rage (as orc barbarians are wont to) and wield a two-hander (ditto). That'd be +24 without the locked gauntlet.

[tricktroller]

I'm just curious as to why you are so against this build. Also the feats superior disarm and combat instincts are from the AEG feat book. Superior disarm gives you an AoO when you disarm someone.


One note for everyone who forgot the order of operations, I trip them first giving me an additional +4 to disarm them and since it is an opposed roll I believe you get negatives for attacking from prone.

If I used a two hander and twf I should still be able to do this since you can let go of a two handed weapon with one hand as a free action if memory serves.

[EugeneVoid]

We're not particularly against the build, but we don't love it. I really enjoy the flavor, but the combat style is not (at all) strong.

[infomatic]

As a PC build, I don't like it either. It's throwing a bunch of feats at a pretty obscure and ineffective fighting style in the hopes that someday, wow, it'll all come together in one combat.

If you're in a swashbuckling campaign where all you're fighting is dagger-wielding pirates or something, I suppose it could work. But that's not how most campaigns are run.

What I think you've got here is not a PC at all, but rather an NPC adversary that the DM could throw against the PCs to cause some trouble. He'll steal their weapons, taunt them a bit, maybe get them on their heels for a couple rounds before they wise up and smack the daylights out of him with the Druid's animal companion.

[tricktroller]

Ok but if I were to use say a greatsword or even better a heavy flail, which allows for trips and gives a further +2 to disarm I would have

+9 BAB +6 Strength +2 weapon enhancement bonus +2 weapon, +4 for 2 handed, +4 attacking prone opponent + 4 improved disarm -2 TWF for a total of

+29.

While my opponent has an additional minus 4 to their roll to prevent being disarmed. Which puts me 2 points higher than the salamander and 5 points higher than the giant or the orc.

The stats I posted were base level 1 stats with no gear.

[Flickerdart]

If as a dm you feel the need to gimp a disarming monk by giving your dude one of the most ridiculous items to wear ever, then I personally think you have issues you need to deal with. The concept of the character is cool which is what I was going for. Doing something to intentionally beat a character that isn't hyper optimized is just petty.
If your build can't defeat a 15gp item, then it's not just "not hyper optimized" but dysfunctional.


I'm just curious as to why you are so against this build. Also the feats superior disarm and combat instincts are from the AEG feat book. Superior disarm gives you an AoO when you disarm someone.


One note for everyone who forgot the order of operations, I trip them first giving me an additional +4 to disarm them and since it is an opposed roll I believe you get negatives for attacking from prone.

If I used a two hander and twf I should still be able to do this since you can let go of a two handed weapon with one hand as a free action if memory serves.
Haha, you, trip them? Let's go to the mathbox. Trip is an opposed Strength check:

Your guy: +4 STR, +4 Improved Trip
Fire Giant: +10 STR, +4 size
Noble Salamander: +6 STR, +4 size
Orc warchief: +8 STR

So you have a 50% chance of tripping the Orc (if you can manage to hit him), and the odds for the other ones are not in your favour either. Fail the trip, and your next attack is at -5 instead of the +4 you wanted, though given how low your chances of success are, it's worth the shot.

Also, being prone is an AC penalty, not an attack bonus for the attacker.

[Qc Storm]

Pretty much everybody here are casual to crazy optimizers. The build's concept is fine, but it combines many of the game's weakest options rolled into one, without really having anything to make them work.

It's probably really cool to play, but unless your DM is nice and hands you opportunities to use it (and your party is in the low OP), you will be very disappointed by the results.

We're just trying to help you.

[EugeneVoid]

The post above ^+1

[Caddoko]

I'm just curious as to why you are so against this build. Also the feats superior disarm and combat instincts are from the AEG feat book. Superior disarm gives you an AoO when you disarm someone.


They aren't trying to bash the build mate, it's just that mechanically these aren't great when compared to other classes. I personally really love the concept and as long as you're not in a group of optimizing/power-gaming players I could see it being a useful character.

[Greenish]

+9 BAB +6 Strength +2 weapon enhancement bonus +2 weapon, +4 for 2 handed, +4 attacking prone opponent + 4 improved disarm -2 TWF for a total of

+29.

While my opponent has an additional minus 4 to their roll to prevent being disarmed.Prone opponent doesn't give you a bonus to attack rolls.

[tricktroller]

QC I appreciate everyone who is offering help however, Flickerdart is not only being not helpful but in fact just rude. Instead of offering help as he has done is belittle the concept.

Sure it isn't optimized the way it is right now

so....
STOP saying it doesn't work
and help me make the friggin thing work!

I have posted the math and no one has even commented on that. All anyone has said is basically "That's not good enough"

Which while being true, is not helpful in the least.

So if the guy is a goliath instead of a human that's better or a half giant or whatever, post things that help instead of telling me it isn;t going to work. I undertand that versus something that doesn;t wield a weapon it won't be as good, but against any humanoid who isn't ****ing about with a locked gauntlet because he has no need of a free hand and always loves holding his sword then I will trip him and steal his sword.

doh. dummied up there ok so no +4 to hit just a -4 to his ac. We always just make it a modifier to the attack roll not to their ac.

[Greenish]

You could try fitting in some barbarian yourself. Wolf Totem gets you Imp. Trip, Pounce gives you some mobility, Rage gives you +4 Str and access to stuff like Wolf Lodge Berserker and Hyena Tribe Warrior (the latter might not need Rage, I forget), and barbarian even has some skill points so you might not have to "stand there and let the Wizard fix it" like a tool.

Using psychic warrior instead of fighter would net you a few less feats and BAB, but, well, you'd get psychic powers.

[tricktroller]

so while keeping the concept trip, disarm and throw weapon away, how would you do it? Race classes feats?

[Greenish]

A straight psywar would be able to Expand two sizes by level 10. That's a pretty good start. Get ITWF from the item (or toss TWF altogether), get rid of ranged feats (with possible exception of Throw Anything if you really want to, though having the enemy provoke AoO for retrieving the weapon is a win for you) for they do so very little, toss Combat Instinct (whatever that does), Oversized TWF (doesn't do much since your off-hand is light), and the build should be easier to fit in.

Tashatalora is also an option if you want to keep monk, though that'd cost you a feat or two, for bigger unarmed damage (and potentially Wis to AC if unarmoured, Inertial Armour is a decent power).

[Phelix-Mu]

Seconding a bit of psywar. Be warforged, take barbie dip, a splash of monk and Tash? I think those can be combined if you have access to Chaos Monk. Use some expansion to get some size bonuses, get a two-hander weapon (I think there is a chain-dagger or something that can be used in this fashion), enchant your unarmed strikes with throwing (necklace of natural attacks), launch yourself around the battlefield. Have an item that let's you cast girallon's blessing on yourself so you have extra hands to hold the disarmed weapon in (or there is a third hand/extra hand item? i think so...).

The major drawback, as mentioned, is that many monsters don't wield weapons that can be disarmed. But it's eminently possible to optimize for disarming.

[AlltheBooks]

{{scrubbed}}

[Qc Storm]

so while keeping the concept trip, disarm and throw weapon away, how would you do it? Race classes feats?

I don't have the optimization experience these guys have, but let's try this.

First, if you want to disarm, you have to have a few things. Improved disarm, and a big bonus. Disarming with your hands (light weapons, thus -4) is a poor option. Additionally, an enemy carrying a two-handed weapon (very common) will impose an additional -4 penalty to you. Adding to all that, many enemies will be bigger than you (+4 bonus to them) and very often won't carry weapons at all.

This means that unless many specific conditions are met, you will have a very hard time using the abilities you spent 20 levels working on. What more, you will probably fail to be very effective when the situation calls for other tactics (one trick pony).

First up, you should probably ditch monk and unarmed fighting. TWF and fists typically mesh terribly together (and both are very inefficient on their own), and even more so with disarming, due to the alarming penalties to attack rolls.

Try starting as a Goliath. They are treated as large, even if you are actually medium. This gives you a cozy +4 to disarm right off the bat (including tripping). This also makes you harder to trip and disarm, should you fail the initial attempt. They also come packaged with a nice +4 STR and +2 CON. STR helps with attack rolls, CON helps you live. It has a measly +1 Level Adjustment. Ask your DM if you can use the LA buyoff rules. Small bonus, since you are medium, you do not take a -1 penalty to attack rolls (as large creatures do), so you're technically better at disarming than a genuine large monster!

One way I can see it working, is with Bloodstorm Blade, a prestige from Tome of Battle. This prestige class has very relaxed prereqs, and covers the whole "throwing" aspects very nicely. With 4 levels in the class, you gain Throw Anything, the possibility of having Returning on your weapons, Full Attacking with throwing weapons, and treating thrown weapons as melee attacks. That last bit means you are using your considerable Melee Attack Bonus instead of your ranged attack bonus, allowing you to focus on one thing. Plus I'm pretty sure this means you can make disarm attempts from afar.

Start with 2 levels in Barbarian. This allows you to gain Improved Trip with the Wolf Totem without having to be smart, or take the so-so prerequisite. You also gain some BAB and Rage out of it. And higher STR means better disarm and trips.

Then, go Warblade. Warblade is a very good martial class, packing things such as full BAB, whopping d12 HP, and great maneuvers. One of them, in particular, allows you to make an attack, quickly followed by a free disarm attempt. Other maneuvers also make you a more adaptable combatant, such a shielding your Will saves with Moment of Perfect Mind, or giving an ally a free turn with White Raven Tactics. Then you can enter Bloodstorm Blade.

I suggest carrying a big two-handed weapon for disarming (as well as overall efficiency). Trip your enemies, gaining a free attack (I think you can substitute it with a disarm?), then see with your DM if you can't kick the weapon away.

Failing that, you could simply throw your big weapon at someone, use your now empty hands to disarm the opponent (taking a bigger penalty, but you are huge and strong), throw that weapon too (possibly multiple times!), and retrieve your two-handed weapon at the beginning of your next turn, thanks to Bloodstorm's Returning effect.

This could potentially work. A level 10 character using this approximate build should have about...

+4 from Powerful Build
+6 from Strength
+4 from Two-handed Weapon
+4 from Improved Disarm
+10 from BAB

For a total of +24. And there's probably more I'm forgetting.

[Forrestfire]

Does your concept require it to be actual martial arts/melee fighting?

If I were running a character based on the goal of being able to "trip, disarm and throw weapon away," I'd use a build including Marshal, Ghost 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a), and Master of the Unseen Hand.

Ghost 2 gets you telekinesis once every 1d4 rounds at CL 12 or your hit dice, whichever is higher, and Master of the Unseen Hand adds another 1-5 on top of that, in addition to buffing your combat abilities.

Marshal gets you Motivate Charisma, which lets you add your Charisma modifier a second time to bull rush and trip attempts. Dungeoncrasher Fighter can also be used to get damage from bull rushes if you want.

So, at level 10, I'd probably be a Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2/Ghost 2/Master of the Unseen Hand 2, or if you have LA buyoff in this campaign, I'd be using Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2/Master of the Unseen Hand 5, with the two levels of Ghost bought off. As you level up, you'd take more levels of Factotum until you hit Factotum 8, to get the ability to take extra standard actions.

Base race is probably human, and extra feats can be spent on Font of Inspiration to get more uses of Int to rolls. Knowledge Devotion is probably something to pick up as well, for adding to damage with violent thrusts.

Put your 18s in Charisma and Intelligence, and use your level-up bonuses on Charisma. You'll have 22 charisma at level 10, without items, so your bonuses for combat maneuvers are actually fairly alright.

Bull Rush and Trip: 6 (Cha mod) + 6 (Motivate Charisma) = 12
Disarm and Grapple: 17 (CL 12 + 5 from Master of the Unseen Hand) + 6 (Cha mod) = 23

Improved Trip/Disarm/Grapple/Bull Rush feats can add more to that, and you'll have a bunch of other options in combat as well, that include stuff like violent thrusting 15 weapons at an enemy as a standard action for an attack routine of +23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23, and damage that depends on the weapon, but has +6 from your Charisma mod per hit (and Knowledge Devotion).

You can even take weapons with disarm and wield them for full attacks in the rounds between violent thrusts, and while it's generally not as strong in combat as just attacking, Fling Skyward is an awesome way to fight.

Probably against the spirit of the idea, and definitely a way to make combat boring as hell, but it works, sorta.

[AMFV]

Look into Shou Disciple from Unnaproachable East, it gives a ton of Monk Advancement in a very short time, with very little problems, it also allows you to flurry with martial weapons, and arguably advances your ability to flurry, it's one of the best improvements on the Monk in the game.

I once built a build with it, that was Warblade 3/UA Swordsage 2/Shou Disciple 5/Singh Rager 4/Warblade (finishes out the build). You get something like seventh or eight level maneuvers, the ability to flurry with martial weapons. With snap kick and a charge you both inspire instant fear in your enemies (through your greater Kai Shout) and do loads of damage, since you have at least 2 extra attacks, not including a probable haste, it's a pretty awesome charger build and a lawful one at that.

[infomatic]

The advantage of using PsyWar or something similar (I would go with the Monk/Tashalatora feat, or PsyWar/Shou, b/c it's closer to original concept) is that, when you're facing an enemy that does not fit your core mechanic, you've got a much larger toolbox to throw at it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Does you concept require it to be actual martial arts/melee fighting?

If I were running a character based on the goal of being able to "trip, disarm and throw weapon away," I'd use a build including Marshal, Ghost 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a), and Master of the Unseen Hand.

Ghost 2 gets you telekinesis once every 1d4 rounds at CL 12 or your hit dice, whichever is higher, and Master of the Unseen Hand adds another 1-5 on top of that, in addition to buffing your combat abilities.

Marshal gets you Motivate Charisma, which lets you add your Charisma modifier a second time to bull rush and trip attempts. Dungeoncrasher Fighter can also be used to get damage from bull rushes if you want.

So, at level 10, I'd probably be a Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2/Ghost 2/Master of the Unseen Hand 2, or if you have LA buyoff in this campaign, I'd be using Factotum 3/Marshal 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2/Master of the Unseen Hand 5, with the two levels of Ghost bought off. As you level up, you'd take more levels of Factotum until you hit Factotum 8, to get the ability to take extra standard actions.

Base race is probably human, and extra feats can be spent on Font of Inspiration to get more uses of Int to rolls. Knowledge Devotion is probably something to pick up as well, for adding to damage with violent thrusts.

Put your 18s in Charisma and Intelligence, and use your level-up bonuses on Charisma. You'll have 22 charisma at level 10, without items, so your bonuses for combat maneuvers are actually fairly alright.

Bull Rush and Trip: 6 (Cha mod) + 6 (Motivate Charisma) = 12
Disarm and Grapple: 17 (CL 12 + 5 from Master of the Unseen Hand) + 6 (Cha mod) = 23

Improved Trip/Disarm/Grapple/Bull Rush feats can add more to that, and you'll have a bunch of other options in combat as well, that include stuff like violent thrusting 15 weapons at an enemy as a standard action for an attack routine of +23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23, and damage that depends on the weapon, but has +6 from your Charisma mod per hit (and Knowledge Devotion).

You can even take weapons with disarm and wield them for full attacks in the rounds between violent thrusts, and while it's generally not as strong in combat as just attacking, Fling Skyward is an awesome way to fight.

Probably against the spirit of the idea, and definitely a way to make combat boring as hell, but it works, sorta.

While I didn't do a particularly close reading of this, it is awesome. Not really in keeping with the OP's targeted flavor, but I would really like to see a build like this in the field. Might have to nab the idea for some kind of mad NPC or extremely nichescaped BBEG.

[tricktroller]

Forrestfire I love your idea however it really isn't the theme I was going for.

I really do what some sort of martial artist who can do most of the combat maneuvers and in fact combines several of them to make them better.

I'd like to stay away from casters and ToB if at all possible, however the psywar does have some nifty abilities. So if we can make it work with non casters I would rather do that. I really like the idea of a martial artist who does it all himself.

Now one of the books that allows for a lot of help in this regard is the Feat book by AEG. It has a lot of combat related feats.

Combat instincts allows you to taike and AoO anytime an opponent misses your ac by a margin of your dex plus BAB. So at that level I would have a 20 dex and +9 BAB so if they rolled anywhere within 14 of my AC I get a free attack.

basically its an easier Robilar's gambit.

[GreenETC]

Combat instincts allows you to taike and AoO anytime an opponent misses your ac by a margin of your dex plus BAB. So at that level I would have a 20 dex and +9 BAB so if they rolled anywhere within 14 of my AC I get a free attack.

basically its an easier Robilar's gambit.
The only problem is that nobody will miss you, like ever. At level 10, that Fire Giant has +20/+15/+10 to hit, which means he'll be hitting quite often, especially if you're keeping Monk. You'll probably catch a few iteratives near the end, but you'll have taken quite a lot of damage by then.

I'd agree with the consensus of the group that Monk/Psychic Warrior would be a pretty nice way to go. Or just flat Psychic Warrior, though it does stretch you a bit MAD.

[tricktroller]

I have heard a lot about tashalatora but I have never built one.

Also int he AEG feat book you can take a pair of feats, natural weaponry, and improved natural weapon to increase form 1d6 monk damage to 2d6. Don't know if that helps the unarmed damage bit.

Now I know you can flurry with monk weapons, but is there a way to do your unarmed damage with them? SO like take the feats and two hand a quarterstaff? This character doesn't have to be a King of Smack, flavor is more important that absolutely winning all the time, however, I would prefer to be be on the winning side more often than on the losing.

[GreenETC]

Now I know you can flurry with monk weapons, but is there a way to do your unarmed damage with them? SO like take the feats and two hand a quarterstaff? This character doesn't have to be a King of Smack, flavor is more important that absolutely winning all the time, however, I would prefer to be be on the winning side more often than on the losing.
The Scorpion Kama out of the MIC is exactly what you're looking for.

[tricktroller]

Page? I just looked it up int he main listings and can't find it.

[GreenETC]

Page? I just looked it up int he main listings and can't find it.
Page 201, part of Gharyn's Monastic Array. It's a +1 Kama that does damage equal to your unarmed strike damage if it's higher, for only 6k.

[tricktroller]

coolio, though it still doesn't solve our trip/disarm problem haha. But nice for another build possibility.

I seriously think the heavy flail is the way to go with this character. Its two handed (+4) can be used to trip instead of using an UAS no (-4), and gets +2 to disarm attempts.

[Forrestfire]

On a more serious note, an actually fairly alright build for someone focused on disarms, trips, and the like would be a Monk 2/Factotum 8.

At level 1, you want to pick up the Kung Fu Genius feat, to let you use your Int instead of Wis for the purposes of your AC bonus. You'll want the Passive Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay) variant, which gets you Combat Expertise and Improved Trip as your bonus feats. You want Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) as the rest of your feats.

Race is probably Human or something with powerful build and LA bought off.

{table=head]Level|Feats
1|Kung Fu Genius, Combat Expertise (monk bonus), Improved Disarm (flaw bonus), Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Spiked Chain] (flaw bonus), Combat Reflexes (human bonus)
2|Improved Trip (monk bonus)
3|Font of Inspiration
6|Font of Inspiration
9|Font of Inspiration[/table]

Factotum's Brains over Brawl ability lets you add your Intelligence modifier to strength and dexterity checks. Cunning Insight lets you spend an Inspiration point to add your Intelligence modifier as a competence bonus to an attack roll, and Cunning Surge lets you spend three Inspiration points to get an extra standard action.

You have 5 base Inspiration points, and three Fonts of Inspiration get you another 6 points. Keep taking the feat as you level up. Knowledge Devotion is another option, since you have enough skill points to make it worth it, and your Int mod is already maxed.

In any case, you only have a BAB of +7, but you can add your Int as an extra +4 or more (you should be getting items to max it), and your trip checks start with 4 + Str mod + Int mod base, before anything else.

Using a spiked chain gets you a two-handed weapon that can trip and gets +2 to disarm, as well as having reach for making better attacks of opportunity.

You'll also be a useful skillmonkey, and a capable combatant when you want to deal damage, because you can get extra standard actions or sneak attack dice from your Factotum abilities, as well as a few minor spells each day, like wraithstrike.

[tricktroller]

I dig it! Only problem I see so far is EWP as 1st level monk since he doesn't have +1 BAB

[Forrestfire]

Ah, whoops. Then I guess one of the Fonts would be delayed, or you could use a different weapon. Or something.

[tricktroller]

hmmmmm what proficiencies does the factotum get?

[Forrestfire]

They get simple and martial weapons, so you could use a heavy flail. Taking Hidden Talent (Expansion) over Exotic Weapon Proficiency gets you a 1/day use of the power, for 10ft reach and a size bonus. Factotum can get you Enlarge Person as well.

[tricktroller]

can you use the two in conjunction? I would imagine not just like all the other size increase spells.

[Forrestfire]

Size increasing magic doesn't stack, sadly, but it'll let you do it multiple times per day, at least.

Or use a dorje of expansion, if you can find some psionic items.

[tricktroller]

Not hugely familiar with psionics to be honest I understand the basics but items are not well known. I imagine its like a command word item that lets you cast it? Like a belt of growth?

So would I still be able to snatch weapons from people using a two hander? It is a free action to let go of your sword hilt with one hand but I ma not sure if you can use it in mid attack which is why I was doing one handed flail and UAS to begin with. The throw anything feat and the "archery" feats were for increased range with the weapons he stole.

I really like the factotum idea, I think it really fits my idea well being able to pretty much do anything but focusing on knocking people down and taking their weapons from them using martial prowess.

[HMS Invincible]

Replacing core Mundane classes with Tome of Battle classes is the 2nd most common answer, behind pick a magical class. The real question is, why not just go full on monkfu with a unsarmed swordsage class? You get all the benefits of disarming/tripping, and none of the drawbacks of being a monk.

Edit: I dislike it when people ask for advice, and then start hating on TOB or magical classes. =(

[tricktroller]

part of the reason why I don't want ToB is because while not expressly forbidden to be played, several DMs that I play with don't like it because they don't know the system well and it is frowned up.

Now in that vein usually the combats aren't totally ridiculous thought depending on caster's it can get that way lol.

[Forrestfire]

Hrm. If you have LA buyoff in the campaign, then being a Goliath might be better than human, getting you an extra +4 Str and powerful build.

A Goliath Monk 2/Factotum 8 with no Strength-enhancing items and both his level-up boosts in Strength can use Enlarge Person/Expansion and get:

+7 (BAB
+8 (Size + Powerful Build)
+7 (24 Str)
+4 (Improved Disarm)
+4 (Two-handed weapon)
+2 (Flail)

For a +32 bonus to Disarm checks against Medium opponents, and you can stack another +Int mod onto that by spending an Inspiration point.

Your trip mod would be 7 (Str) + 8 (size) + 4 (Int) + 4 (Improved Trip) = +23 bonus to trip.

I'm honestly not sure if you could use Snatch Weapon and a two-handed weapon at the same time.


Not hugely familiar with psionics to be honest I understand the basics but items are not well known. I imagine its like a command word item that lets you cast it? Like a belt of growth?

A dorje (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/dorjes.htm)is a psionic wand. Since Hidden Talent gives you Expansion on your power list in this case, you could cast from it.

However, I just went and checked Expansion and learned that it only lasts 1 round/level, so you'd be better off just getting a wand of Enlarge Person and use magic device-ing it.

[Flickerdart]

On a more serious note, an actually fairly alright build for someone focused on disarms, trips, and the like would be a Monk 2/Factotum 8.

At level 1, you want to pick up the Kung Fu Genius feat, to let you use your Int instead of Wis for the purposes of your AC bonus. You'll want the Passive Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay) variant, which gets you Combat Expertise and Improved Trip as your bonus feats. You want Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) as the rest of your feats.

Race is probably Human or something with powerful build and LA bought off.

{table=head]Level|Feats
1|Kung Fu Genius, Combat Expertise (monk bonus), Improved Disarm (flaw bonus), Exotic Weapon Proficiency [Spiked Chain] (flaw bonus), Combat Reflexes (human bonus)
2|Improved Trip (monk bonus)
3|Font of Inspiration
6|Font of Inspiration
9|Font of Inspiration[/table]

Factotum's Brains over Brawl ability lets you add your Intelligence modifier to strength and dexterity checks. Cunning Insight lets you spend an Inspiration point to add your Intelligence modifier as a competence bonus to an attack roll, and Cunning Surge lets you spend three Inspiration points to get an extra standard action.

You have 5 base Inspiration points, and three Fonts of Inspiration get you another 6 points. Keep taking the feat as you level up. Knowledge Devotion is another option, since you have enough skill points to make it worth it, and your Int mod is already maxed.

In any case, you only have a BAB of +7, but you can add your Int as an extra +4 or more (you should be getting items to max it), and your trip checks start with 4 + Str mod + Int mod base, before anything else.

Using a spiked chain gets you a two-handed weapon that can trip and gets +2 to disarm, as well as having reach for making better attacks of opportunity.

You'll also be a useful skillmonkey, and a capable combatant when you want to deal damage, because you can get extra standard actions or sneak attack dice from your Factotum abilities, as well as a few minor spells each day, like wraithstrike.
I would recommend Azurin instead of Human, because then you can whip out some sexy Cobalt Expertise stuff. My favourite Monk/Factotum I've played used Decisive Strike and Knock-down to punch+trip+punch again+punch when they get up, and each punch deals double damage. Oh and also you're rocking a very nice AC thanks to Combat Expertise.

The value of the multiple punchings is reduced somewhat at higher levels, when iterative attacks start hitting more regularly, but it's still solid. When you have a level to spare, dip Cloistered Cleric for the Competition Domain or some devotions (Knowledge, Law, and Travel are all good picks).

[tricktroller]

is Azurin and cobalt expertise the essentia one? I play with no groups that allow incarnum unfortunately. I have always been intrigued by it but since none of my groups play with it I have never read up on it in depth.

However decisive strike and knockdown are not a bad idea either especially with all the extra attacks.

[Flickerdart]

is Azurin and cobalt expertise the essentia one? I play with no groups that allow incarnum unfortunately. I have always been intrigued by it but since none of my groups play with it I have never read up on it in depth.
Yep. I can understand people not wanting to use Incarnum because it's confusing, but Cobalt Expertise is pretty straightforward.



However decisive strike and knockdown are not a bad idea either especially with all the extra attacks.
Decisive Strike is a full round action, so you wouldn't be getting anything extra from stuff like TWF or Flurry of Blows (which you have to trade out to get it). Fishing for free attacks through other means (Improved Trip, Snap Kick) is still legit, and everything you strike with deals double damage until the end of your next turn so the more of these you can get the more impressive it is.

Actually, that gives me an idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16640973)...

[animewatcha]

Building on the powerful build. Get a sai or other + 4 to disarm weapon. Normally a sai is a light weapon ( incurring minus 4 to disarm ). However, you gonna use a size category larger than what you can use normally. So goliath with powerful build. Large Sai usable as light weapon. So use a Huge sai ( one handed weapon with -2 penalty to attack rolls ). Since the Huge sai will be a one handed weapon for you, two-hand it.

Thus, Huge size +8.
Two-handed +4
Sai + 4 to disarm.

-edit done-

Okay, that is just disarm. Obviously, AEG is allowed. ToB not allowed or wanted apparently. Psionics okay. What precisely else is allowed? Like Drag mag? what?

[tricktroller]

actually I made a post about the Sai before and it is no the weapon size that matters but the wielder size. All that matters for the weapon is handedness. so no +8 from huge.

[tricktroller]

I really do love the concept of this guy tripping someone, snatching their weapon out of their hand midfall and flinging it at their friend and then stomping on their head as their first attack in a round.

With the factotum doing so much more than the fighter with getting pretty much everything I wanted I am pretty happy so far. Tweaking and perfecting this guy would be fun as well though he seems pretty solid to me currently.

Cobalt expertise and open chakra are the two most common things I have heard of from Incarnum, but the whole system seems intentionally complex. So While I appreciate the addition, I'm afraid I won't be able to use it in this build.

[animewatcha]

actually I made a post about the Sai before and it is no the weapon size that matters but the wielder size. All that matters for the weapon is handedness. so no +8 from huge.

Okay, no plus 8 from being huge, but still +4 with no pesky light weapon penalty.

[tricktroller]

yeah but a -2 to the attack roll for a huge weapon. while with it just being a light large sai you get a total of +0 to disarm and no minus to hit. Now a large light flail would net you +2 to disarm and no minus to wielding it....


Ok so this gives me a thought, do I get the +4 bonus to disarm from two handing a weapon or only from two handed weapons?

As a goliath can I not choose to treat myself as large or medium in whatever way benefits me the most?

[animewatcha]

When I say huge sai. I mean so that the weapon category wielding will change from light to one-handed. From there, you two-hand it.

[Forrestfire]

At that point, you're better off using a flail or a spiked chain, because you're at a net bonus of +2 on top of the size bonuses.

[tricktroller]

exactly with no penalties to your normal attack rolls.

With a huge sai you get a -2 to all attack rolls, that includes if I were to still TWF.