Alter Self + Hat of Disguise

[aeauseth]

I have creative player (Human Warlock/Wizard) with an interesting mechanism to boost is AC. His base (un-buffed) AC is 21 (+3 DEX, +7 Mithral Breastplate +2, +1 Deflection, +1 Natural, -1 Flaw: Vulnerable).

His buffed AC is 34 (+5 DEX, +7 Mithral Breastplate +2, +1 Deflection, +7 Natural, +4 Shield, +1 Size, -1 Flaw: Vulnerable).

So how did he do all that, well:

+5 DEX: Base of +3, +2 Size bonus from Reduce Person
+7 Armor: Breastplate is +5 armor, with a +2 enhancement, max DEX=5
+1 Deflection: Ring of Protection +1
+7 Natural: Alter self into a Troglodyte (base +6 natural), +1 enhancement from Amulet of Natural Armor
+4 Shield: The shield spell
+1 Size: Reduce person takes him from Medium to Small, so +1 Size bonus
-1 Flaw: He took the Flaw Vulnerable.


All this brings him to a whopping 34 AC, excellent for a level 9 character.
However… Notice he uses Alter Self to become a Troglodyte? He also uses a Hat of Disguise (Illusion/Glamer) to look like a Human. He then goes around town as if he was a normal human, just with an exceptional natural armor (that nobody notices).

I find it odd that Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) and Disguise Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm) work together. Does it really work like this?

As the DM, I will rule that his skin feels like a Troglodyte, his voice sounds like a Troglodyte, he might even have a slight smell to him. He would visually pass for a human (actually himself), but when he speaks or touches someone, they will know something is amiss.

I also think he's been overlooking the 15% spell failure for his Mithral Breasplate +2. But if he is using wands, I don't think spell failure from armor applies.

Are there any comments on the legality of Alter Self + Hat of Disguise?

[Vaz]

I don't find it odd at all; after all, Disguise Self is an Illusion, while Alter Self is a Transmutation. You might want to state that the Disguise check doesn't stack though, so you get a +10 Max, as the bonus comes from the same effect (changing shape), but one check is to become a Troglodyte, but the other is to become a Human.

Other senses make come into play as well rather than Spot; Hearing, the Scent ability (although Disguise Self likely covers that), Sense Motive. It also sounds like a lot of equipment; I can't quite remember.

In regards to the AC, it's a simple enough thing to "Dispel Magic", and keeping up Alter Self all day is going to be a drain on resources (unless as you say, it's a Wand, which is another drain on resources - perhaps a sneaky thief in the middle of the night?); assuming he's Wizard 6/Warlock 3 or something, (due to the lack of mention of Polymorph) that's 5 potential spell slots to spend on Alter Self, and there's a lot more than can be done.

He doesn't even really need an AC that high either; Mirror Images increase Miss Chance, and he's not really got enough supporting him in combat (+4 (?) BAB, low Strength, etc) to make him an effective frontliner.

So he might have an AC of 34+, but what's he doing with it? And why's he not being countered with Wands of True/Wraith strike?

[PurpleSocks]

Its two different effects from different schools so it's legit as far as I am aware. The disguise bonus from both wouldn't stack but that's not what your asking.

Be aware that the hat of disguise and reduce person would conflict if he wants to look like a normal sized human also, technically he would be using the disguise skill to look lie another species which has another penalty and to appear identical to a specific individual namely himself has another.

Disguise Check v Spot
Hat of Disguise +10
Ranks & Charisma ???
Different Race -2
Different Size Category -10
To appear identical to himself -10

Total Penalty to the disguise check -12.

Edit the disguise penalty for size categories is from Pathfinder, RAW you would have to use the epic usage of disguise for a "Change height and/or weight 26% to 50%" with a -50 on the check.

[Naomi Li]

I believe it's perfectly legal. One is a transformation ability and the other is an illusion. However, as disguise self is a simple glamer that only disguises visual identification, any other sensory interaction (scent, his troglodyte stench effect activating if 3.5 gives him that for any who can smell, touching him, him speaking with his troglodyte vocal cords) would allow for a will saving throw against the illusion, and most people are probably going to assume powerful enemy infiltrator and attempt to get him killed immediately if they think they could win.

Going from my Pathfinder experience I would NOT allow reduce person and alter self to both be active, and I would not allow alter self to grant natural armor bonuses, but since this is 3.5 it's all your call.

Note: Disguise self does NOT allow you to look like another size category, so he could manage a halfling, gnome, or a child/midget/dwarf of the other humanoid races while reduce person is active. And reduce person running out could REALLY compromise his disguise check.

[IAmTehDave]

Are there any comments on the legality of Alter Self + Hat of Disguise?

Alter Self is a polymorph effect. Disguise Self is an illusion effect.
Notes, from the SRD on Disguise Self:
"You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between"
"You cannot change your body type."
"The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment."

He would DEFINITELY sound like a Troglodyte.
Also note that Alter Self doesn't give the PC the Stench ability of the troglodyte, so it probably wouldn't smell so bad. He would, however, still smell reptilian. Disguise Self doesn't say it outright, but from the text seems to indicate it's visual-only.

He would, however, seem like a disguised troglodyte, and anyone with a decent spot check could see through it.

Also: spell trigger items don't use armor Spell Failure chances. Spell Completion items, OTOH, might.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Edit: Disguise Self can make you look 1 foot taller. By the SRD troglodytes are 5 feet tall. Half that (reduce person) is 2.5 feet. Disguise Self can only make him look 3.5 feet tall.

[Andezzar]

First of all his AC is slightly off. [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm]Reduce Person[/quote] only raises his DEX score by two, it does not improve the DEX modifier by 2. So the buffed AC should be 33.

You are correct that disguise self only changes the visual appearance. Furthermore disguise self has this ambiguous line:"You cannot change your body type." So a character transformed into a troglodyte that is supposed to look like a human could still have a tail, a snout and clawed feet. The MM gives no indication that troglodytes smell distinctively if they do not use their stench ability. We do not know whether troglodytes have distinctive voice patterns, or if the range of human voices overlaps with those of troglodytes.

[aeauseth]

First of all his AC is slightly off. Reduce Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm) only raises his DEX score by two, it does not improve the DEX modifier by 2. So the buffed AC should be 33.

You are correct the target gains a +2 size bonus to Dexterity. I concur with your 33 AC.

[CombatOwl]

Its two different effects from different schools so it's legit as far as I am aware. The disguise bonus from both wouldn't stack but that's not what your asking.

By the rules, they're untyped bonuses so they do stack. It's silly, but that's how the game works.

[aeauseth]

Also note that Alter Self doesn't give the PC the Stench ability of the troglodyte, so it probably wouldn't smell so bad. He would, however, still smell reptilian.

I agree no Stench or other foul odor. I was thinking it might linger or be subtle as part of the race. But RAW doesn't specifically state that. Must be like a skunk, when calm they don't smell bad at all.

I'd also agree that any creature using the scent ability would detect reptilian, not human.

Great insights, thanks!