[PF] Requesting Advice (Lore Warden / Duelist)

[Razo1204]

Hello Everyone,

I've been working on a character concept to play in an upcoming campaign and I'm hoping to get some feedback.

One of my friends is planning on playing a half orc slayer with the surprise follow through feat. I want to play a a character that can help him get sneak attacks via flanking, stunning, and lining up enemies for him to cleave though. I'd prefer to have some damage output in case those methods prove to be ineffective in a certain encounter. We will be starting off at level 1 and ending at level 19 or 20. I'd prefer to not use 3rd party sources.



Level 20 Elf
Monk 1 / Fighter 1 / M 1 / F 4 / Duelist 9 / F 4
Archetypes: Master of Many Styles and Lore Warden
Favored Class Bonus: 1 Health / Fighter Level
Racial Features: Elven Immunities, Fleet-Footed, Keen Senses, Low-Light Vision, and Silent Hunter
Trait: Auspicious Tattoo & Campaign Trait

Starting Attributes: (20 Point Buy)
Str:10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 8
Racial Attributes: +2 Dex (16), -2 Con (12), +2 Int (16)
Level Attributes: +2 Dex (18), +3 Wis (18)

Monk / Duelist Skills ( 7 / Level )
Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, Dance/Climb/Swim, 3 Knowledge Skills

Fighter Skills ( 8 / Level )
Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, Climb/Swim/Dance, 4 Knowledge Skills (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, and Planes)

Feats:
1 Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Mantis Style
1 Level: Weapon Finesse
2 Fighter: Dervish Dance
3 Monk: Crane Style
3 Level: Dodge
4 Fighter: Combat Expertise & Improved Trip
5 Level: Ki Throw
6 Fighter: Crane Wing
7 Level: Mobility
9 Level: Greater Trip
11 Duelist: Combat Reflexes
11 Level: Crane Riposte
13 Level: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist)
15 Level: Fury’s Fall
17 Fighter: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
17 Level: Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
19 Fighter: Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
19 Level: Open Feat

[Drelua]

Looks pretty good to me, Master of Many Styles is a pretty good archetype for dipping Monk. One thing you might consider is taking your Monk levels a bit later, after you have Dodge and Crane Style, so that you can have Crane Riposte up as early as level 4. Snake Style and Snake Fang might also be good, using MoMS to bypass Snake Sidewind entirely. I'm not sure how exactly I'd set it up, but I'd probably recommend taking Dodge at level 1, Crane Style with Fighter feats by level 3, then using your level 3 and 5 feats to take Crane Wing and Snake Style in whatever order you like and using MoMS feats for Crane Riposte and Snake Fang. That way you can get both styles going by level 5 if you take Monk and either levels 3 and 5 or 4 and 5.

You should be able to use the rest of your Fighter feats to get Mobility and Weapon Finesse in plenty of time for Duelist. Snake Fang also lets your unarmed strikes count as piercing, so they'll work with some Duelist features like Precise Strike.

[Blyte]

I'd suggest the tettori monk, grappling will give him plenty of sneak attacks and he doesn't even need to flank.

Or perhaps if you want to get a little weird... a druid, take the gecko animal companion for grappling, then when you get wild shape, make yourself into a gecko... that's a bunch of pulling grapples to shift the monsters into cleaving sneak attack position.

[Hytheter]

One thing you might consider is taking your Monk levels a bit later, after you have Dodge and Crane Style, so that you can have Crane Riposte up as early as level 4.

The issue with that is Crane Style has Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, which means you're totally wasting a feat by trying to get Crane Style before being a monk.

[Razo1204]

Looks pretty good to me, Master of Many Styles is a pretty good archetype for dipping Monk. One thing you might consider is taking your Monk levels a bit later, after you have Dodge and Crane Style, so that you can have Crane Riposte up as early as level 4. Snake Style and Snake Fang might also be good, using MoMS to bypass Snake Sidewind entirely. I'm not sure how exactly I'd set it up, but I'd probably recommend taking Dodge at level 1, Crane Style with Fighter feats by level 3, then using your level 3 and 5 feats to take Crane Wing and Snake Style in whatever order you like and using MoMS feats for Crane Riposte and Snake Fang. That way you can get both styles going by level 5 if you take Monk and either levels 3 and 5 or 4 and 5.

You should be able to use the rest of your Fighter feats to get Mobility and Weapon Finesse in plenty of time for Duelist. Snake Fang also lets your unarmed strikes count as piercing, so they'll work with some Duelist features like Precise Strike.


I wanted to take weapon finesse and dervish dance ASAP so my character didn't seem useless in the early levels. Snake Style seems to work well with duelist; however, I just don't see how I would fit it into the build unless I took it extremely late. I never thought about grabbing crane style on my own and then using MoMS to skip over crane wing for early access to Crane Riposte!!!
I'll have to rework my fest progression a little bit to get it at level 4. I should be able to pull it off if I go 1 Monk / 2 Fighter / 1 Monk

[Razo1204]

I'd suggest the tettori monk, grappling will give him plenty of sneak attacks and he doesn't even need to flank.

Or perhaps if you want to get a little weird... a druid, take the gecko animal companion for grappling, then when you get wild shape, make yourself into a gecko... that's a bunch of pulling grapples to shift the monsters into cleaving sneak attack position.

That does seem to be an interesting and effective idea but I'm trying to avoid grappling since we just had a tetori monk in our last campaign.

[Hytheter]

I never thought about grabbing crane style on my own and then using MoMS to skip over crane wing for early access to Crane Riposte!!!

You can't skip Crane Wing. I mean, you can, but Crane Riposte only works after you use crane Wing. If you don't have crane Wing, you will never be able to use Riposte's effect.
You also can't take Crane Wing without +5 BAB or 5 levels in Monk. Unless you're taking it as a MoMS bonus feat, you have to meet the pre-requisites.

[Razo1204]

You can't skip Crane Wing. I mean, you can, but Crane Riposte only works after you use crane Wing. If you don't have crane Wing, you will never be able to use Riposte's effect.
You also can't take Crane Wing without +5 BAB or 5 levels in Monk. Unless you're taking it as a MoMS bonus feat, you have to meet the pre-requisites.

I was planning on taking it as the MoMS bonus feat. If you take it before you get crane wing, you wont be able to use the parry mechanic; however, it still lowers the penalty for fighting on the defensive to a -1.

[Hytheter]

I was planning on taking it as the MoMS bonus feat. If you take it before you get crane wing, you wont be able to use the parry mechanic; however, it still lowers the penalty for fighting on the defensive to a -1.

That doesn't sound worth it though. Why reduce the Fighting Defensively penalty by a mere 1 when you could instead negate an opponents melee attack every turn, no questions asked? (and get a free attack if you take both)

Also, I do agree with Drelua that Snake Style is better than Mantis Style for you.

[Drelua]

The issue with that is Crane Style has Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, which means you're totally wasting a feat by trying to get Crane Style before being a monk.

I missed that bit, although you can get around it if you take your levels in the right order. It took a lot more work than I expected, but I think I can get both styles at level 6. If you go Fighter 2/Monk 1/Fighter +2/Monk +1...

1 - Dodge
Weapon Finesse (Fighter)
2 - Dervish Dance (Fighter)
3 - Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
Snake Style
Snake Fang (Monk)
5 - Crane Style
Crane Wing (Fighter)
6 - Crane Riposte (Monk)
7 - Mobility

I think that gets all the style feats without delaying entry into duelist, unless I missed something. The next feat you'd want is probably Combat Reflexes for Snake Fang. If you wanted to focus more in fighting unarmed and save a feat, you could get an Amulet of Mighty Fists with Agile on it for 4k. I know it kind of sucks being too gear dependent, but you'd only really lose a couple points of damage without it.

Edit: There it is, I knew I missed something. You can't take Dervish Dance until level 3, can you?

Edit the Second: Never mind, yes you can take Dervish Dance at level 2. For some reason I though it required 3 ranks in Perform (Dance).

[Razo1204]

I'm not sure if early access to Crane Riposte is worth it or not. I'm just saying it's worth looking at . The reason I took Mantis style was to boost my Stunning fist DC for enemies that can't easily be tripped.

[Hytheter]

Edit: There it is, I knew I missed something. You can't take Dervish Dance until level 3, can you?

You also can't take Crane Wing at Level 5 because your BAB is only +4 and your Monk Level is only 1.

[Razo1204]

Edit: There it is, I knew I missed something. You can't take Dervish Dance until level 3, can you?

You can take it at level 2.

[Drelua]

You also can't take Crane Wing at Level 5 because your BAB is only +4 and your Monk Level is only 1.

Right, crap. Okay, I can still salvage this. Make it Fighter 2/Monk 1/Fighter +3/Monk +1, and you should have it in seven.

1 - Dodge
Weapon Finesse (Fighter)
2 - Dervish Dance (Fighter)
3 - Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
Snake Style
Snake Fang (Monk)
5 - Crane Style
Mobility (Fighter)
7 - Crane Riposte (Monk)
Crane Wing

Did I miss anything this time?

[Razo1204]

Right, crap. Okay, I can still salvage this. Make it Fighter 2/Monk 1/Fighter +3/Monk +1, and you should have it in seven.

1 - Dodge
Weapon Finesse (Fighter)
2 - Dervish Dance (Fighter)
3 - Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
Snake Style
Snake Fang (Monk)
5 - Crane Style
Mobility (Fighter)
7 - Crane Riposte (Monk)
Crane Wing

Did I miss anything this time?

The one issue I have with that build is that it doesn't get into tripping until late and it delays entry into duelist until 9.

[Drelua]

The one issue I have with that build is that it doesn't get into tripping until late and it delays entry into duelist until 9.

Actually, it only delays Duelist by one, same as your original build and any other build that includes Monk, since you lose a point of BAB, but have all the feat pre-reqs in plenty of time. Unfortunately, the only way I can think of to get tripping any earlier without further delaying entry into Duelist is to drop Dervish Dance and fight unarmed, maybe be human for the extra feat, so it might not be the right build for the character you had in mind. If you didn't mind fighting unarmed, though, you could get an amulet of mighty fists with agile for 4k, which would probably be affordable at level 4 or 5.

Anyway, if the build doesn't work for you, that's fine, of course, I just really wanted to find a way to cram all those feats in there. I might have to play it myself sometime.

[Razo1204]

Actually, it only delays Duelist by one, same as your original build and any other build that includes Monk, since you lose a point of BAB, but have all the feat pre-reqs in plenty of time. Unfortunately, the only way I can think of to get tripping any earlier without further delaying entry into Duelist is to drop Dervish Dance and fight unarmed, maybe be human for the extra feat, so it might not be the right build for the character you had in mind. If you didn't mind fighting unarmed, though, you could get an amulet of mighty fists with agile for 4k, which would probably be affordable at level 4 or 5.

Anyway, if the build doesn't work for you, that's fine, of course, I just really wanted to find a way to cram all those feats in there. I might have to play it myself sometime.

You are still missing mobility as a prereq with the build you posted.

[Drelua]

You are still missing mobility as a prereq with the build you posted.

Uh...


Right, crap. Okay, I can still salvage this. Make it Fighter 2/Monk 1/Fighter +3/Monk +1, and you should have it in seven.

1 - Dodge
Weapon Finesse (Fighter)
2 - Dervish Dance (Fighter)
3 - Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
Snake Style
Snake Fang (Monk)
5 - Crane Style
Mobility (Fighter)
7 - Crane Riposte (Monk)
Crane Wing

Did I miss anything this time?

It's right there as a Fighter bonus feat.

[Razo1204]

Uh...



It's right there as a Fighter bonus feat.

I stand corrected. That's what I get for trying to read this while watching a movie. Thanks for your help.