Warforged Build Help - Taking the damage

[Gwazi Magnum]

So me and my group are starting a new campaign tomorrow. Our characters are mostly done, I'm just touching up mine now cause I can't sleep.

But I wanted to run it through you guys first.
I'm not looking for any big or huge optimizing advice, just general advice that I'm focusing on decent stuff and going in the right direction.

I nicknamed my Warforged "Tank", with the idea being his main focus to keep taking a beating. He can absorb a ton of damage and just keep going.

Now all books are approved (Erotic Fantasy) included so there's 7 ability scores with a 39 point buy.

Also, to describe the rest of the party.

We got two rangers, one whose basically a stealthy archer ran by a new player (main reason I don't want to optimize too much, to keep the campaign in his power level). The other focusing on two weapon fighting and is investing in some charisma to act as the party face.

Then a Beguiler who plans to take full advantage of the Erotic Fantasy book. Not sure how though... :/

My Build:
Level: 1
Race: Warforged
Class: Barbarian

STR 14, DEX 12, CON 20, INT 14, WIS 13, CHA 6, APP 6

Feats: Adamantine Body, Extra Rage, Reckless Rage, Improved Toughness

Class Variants: Bear Totem (Both versions)
Essentially trading away Barbarian DR, Uncanny Dodge, Imp Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement & Trap Sense to gain the following...

+1 HP per level, Toughness at Lv.1 (Swapped it for Improved Toughness), Improved Grapple at Lv.2 (No use for this), Great Fortitude at Lv.3 (Doing a winter/arctic themed campaign so this might help).

Flaws: Shaky, Pathetic (Appearance)

Traits: Slow, ---

Skills

(Note, one of our players had a disliking of being restricted with class skills from their class. So the DM allowed a one for one swap variant where we can trade any amount of class skills we have for any other amount of class skills).

Fully Trained: Craft (Gemcutting), Listen, Spot, Search, Sense Motive
-Class Skill: Speak Language (2 SP on two new languages, other 2 on being literate).

Languages: Common, Draconic, Orcish, Goblin, Giant
Idea here being he knows the language's of those he was built to fight.

Gear: Warhammer, Heavy Metal Shield, Masterwork Artisan Kit and some utilities

This all leaves to mostly an end result of...

HP: 20 (23 in rage)
DR: 2/adamantine
AC: 21 (17 in rage)
Initiative: +1

Fort: +7, Ref: +1, Will +1 (+3 in rage)

Attack: Warhammer +3(+6 in rage) [1d8+2 damage (1d8+5 in rage)].

Craft +8, Sense Motive +5, Listen +5, Spot +5, Search +6

The main two thing's I'm debating are...

1. Ditch the shield and wield the warhammer 2-handed (I want warhammer to eventually get the kind that add CON modifier to damage rolls)

2. Ditch the Adamantine Armor for a free feat and to find another source of DR. Though having the armor at level 1 sounds really fun.

[phlidwsn]

If you want a 'tank' build to soak damage and keep going, take a look at Crusader from Tome of Battle.

If you're sticking with Barb, I'd stay with 2h weapons and adamantine body, and take a look at Stone Power, also from ToB. Its basically power attack for temp HP instead of increased damage.

[Red Fel]

If you want a 'tank' build to soak damage and keep going, take a look at Crusader from Tome of Battle.

If you're sticking with Barb, I'd stay with 2h weapons and adamantine body, and take a look at Stone Power, also from ToB. Its basically power attack for temp HP instead of increased damage.

This. The problem with being a "tank" in D&D is that there is absolutely no incentive for enemies to attack you. First off, even as a Barb, you've dumped so many feats and features into soaking damage that you're less effective at dealing it, so enemies don't see you as a threat, or at least not as big a threat as the squishy folks in robes flinging fireballs. Second, once an enemy realizes that he can't actually deal any substantial damage to you, he'll probably switch tactics and go find someone he can damage - liked the aforementioned squishy in robes. And third, enemies can avoid you. Especially in groups.

Crusader solves many of these problems through access to Thicket of Blades, which allows an AoO whenever something pretty much breathes near you. When combined with Combat Reflexes for extra AoOs, and Stand Still to use your AoOs to stop things from moving, and a reach weapon to extend your threat radius, you can basically lock down all motion within 10 feet. Further, the Iron Guard's Glare stance - also a Crusader classic - basically tells everyone you threaten that their attacks will be nerfed unless they focus them on you, instead of your allies.

Being able to take the damage is a good first step. But the second step is forcing your enemies to prioritize you as a target over your allies. If you can't do that, your ability to take damage becomes almost irrelevant, except for use as a Mobile Trap Disarmer.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have played a fun character who is as follows

Incarnate 1 / Crusader X / Ironsoul Forgemaster X / Crusader X.

Now, you would need DM permission for bypassing the dwarf prereq, but the book itself suggests allowing that restriction to be bypassed.

Feats are as follows
Adimantium body (1St)
Toughness (flaw)
Roll with it (flaw)
Roll with it (3rd)
Roll with it (6th)
Roll with it (9th)
Roll with it (12th)
Roll with it (15th)
Roll with it (18th)

Get someone to hit you with the spell that applies the mineral warrior template at some point (3rd level) and buy off the LA.

You end up with HIGH unbeatable DR and high resistances to most energy types.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Note: I noticed an error with ability scores so it's been altered to...

STR 16, DEX 12, CON 20, INT 14, WIS 11, CHA 6, APP 6


If you want a 'tank' build to soak damage and keep going, take a look at Crusader from Tome of Battle.

If you're sticking with Barb, I'd stay with 2h weapons and adamantine body, and take a look at Stone Power, also from ToB. Its basically power attack for temp HP instead of increased damage.

After posting this and looking more into rage I realized afterwards that I could easily end up dying once ending rage since it doesn't act as temp HP.

Due to this I had switched to Warblade and taken Stone Power.

As for 2h, the way I'm looking at it is once I get the Hammer of Earth it will ramp up by damage by my CON Modifier which should allow for significant one handed damage. I don't really plan to boost my STR much higher, and I don't think the CON bonus works with the two handed 1.5x bonus.

Though with stone power I'm now worried about keeping a decently high attack roll.


This. The problem with being a "tank" in D&D is that there is absolutely no incentive for enemies to attack you. First off, even as a Barb, you've dumped so many feats and features into soaking damage that you're less effective at dealing it, so enemies don't see you as a threat, or at least not as big a threat as the squishy folks in robes flinging fireballs. Second, once an enemy realizes that he can't actually deal any substantial damage to you, he'll probably switch tactics and go find someone he can damage - liked the aforementioned squishy in robes. And third, enemies can avoid you. Especially in groups.

Crusader solves many of these problems through access to Thicket of Blades, which allows an AoO whenever something pretty much breathes near you. When combined with Combat Reflexes for extra AoOs, and Stand Still to use your AoOs to stop things from moving, and a reach weapon to extend your threat radius, you can basically lock down all motion within 10 feet. Further, the Iron Guard's Glare stance - also a Crusader classic - basically tells everyone you threaten that their attacks will be nerfed unless they focus them on you, instead of your allies.

Being able to take the damage is a good first step. But the second step is forcing your enemies to prioritize you as a target over your allies. If you can't do that, your ability to take damage becomes almost irrelevant, except for use as a Mobile Trap Disarmer.

I never understood by Crusader is always pushed as the tank, it has sub-par hit dice and sub-par BAB.

Oops, sorry there. I keep mixing up Crusader with Swordsage. :/
Looking at Crusader I can see the use of it.

I'll grant the stances seem nice though, -4 become small late game, and Thicket only works with a high DEX which usually means I'm having less focus on damage or stealth (can't use shadow blade since I'm in a devoted spirit stance).

I really like the idea though of being someone who can simply take a ton of damage. I just need to find a way outside of the hammer to make him more threatening. But I'm hoping once he get's CON added to damage that he'll be taken more seriously.

[Fouredged Sword]

Crusaders are tanks due to the delay damage pool. They actually have bonuses from taking damage, added to the ability to recover from damage quickly while still fighting turns them into very tanky targets. At later levels, one can take several hundred damage in a round, only to turn around and hit themselves with a heal.

Several times...

Each combat...

And if they ignore you, you hurt them.

[AlltheBooks]

I never understood by Crusader is always pushed as the tank, it has sub-par hit dice and sub-par BAB.

What? Really?

[Gwazi Magnum]

I have played a fun character who is as follows

Incarnate 1 / Crusader X / Ironsoul Forgemaster X / Crusader X.

Now, you would need DM permission for bypassing the dwarf prereq, but the book itself suggests allowing that restriction to be bypassed.

Feats are as follows
Adimantium body (1St)
Toughness (flaw)
Roll with it (flaw)
Roll with it (3rd)
Roll with it (6th)
Roll with it (9th)
Roll with it (12th)
Roll with it (15th)
Roll with it (18th)

Get someone to hit you with the spell that applies the mineral warrior template at some point (3rd level) and buy off the LA.

You end up with HIGH unbeatable DR and high resistances to most energy types.

Seems interesting. I already plan on roll with it stacking on future levels.

Current Feats; Adamantium Body, Improved Toughness, Stone Power.

Though wouldn't the mineral warrior DR not stack with the warforged armor DR?

My main two concern's though are:

1. Is Warblade/Crusader(Outside of 1st level) even that helpful with going into Ironsoul?
2. Ironsoul Forgemaster comes with an average of 1 (2 if warblade) less HP per level which could add up.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Crusaders are tanks due to the delay damage pool. They actually have bonuses from taking damage, added to the ability to recover from damage quickly while still fighting turns them into very tanky targets. At later levels, one can take several hundred damage in a round, only to turn around and hit themselves with a heal.

Several times...

Each combat...

And if they ignore you, you hurt them.

Wait, how are they healing themselves? o.O

I know the delayed damage, but I tend not to like it so much cause it's just that, delayed. Next turn you'll take it anyways.


What? Really?

Sword-sagedited above earlier, I accidentally confused it with swordsage.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ironsoul should be taken for at least 2 levels, due to the awesome resistances to energy damage it provides. You can easily have 30 points of resistance to most energy types using it. The SOS it adds to your melee attacks as a capstone is really nice as well. I wouldn't discount it.

Also, I love a Iron ward crystal for your plating. It does wonders for making you hard to hurt. 5/- DR added on top of the normal DR you are running around with can be really funny. 30/ad or 22/- shouldn't be out of reach.

Crusader and warblade are there just for nice, full BAB, useful classes. The crusader delay damage pool is nice.

Crusader explanation - Highest level devoted spirit strike - You hit someone and cast heal. Seriously, HEAL. You can do it every 3-4 rounds.

[Red Fel]

Seems interesting. I already plan on roll with it stacking on future levels.

Current Feats; Adamantium Body, Improved Toughness, Stone Power.

My main two concern's though are:

1. Is Warblade/Crusader(Outside of 1st level) even that helpful with going into Ironsoul?
2. Ironsoul Forgemaster comes with an average of 1 (2 if warblade) HP per level which could add up.

Your Martial Adept class (Warblade/Crusader) remains your primary source of damage. The primary functions of Ironsoul Forgemaster are (1) increasing access to soulmelds and meldshaper level, (2) boosting your crafting, and (3) the ability to invest chakra in crafted armor/weapons. For your build in particular, the ability at IF 5, Armor Bond, basically allows you to create DR out of the ether. Invest essentia, gain DR, ba-boom.

It's not a question of whether Warblade/Crusader helps IF, it's a question of whether IF helps Warblade/Crusader. And the answer is "Yes, if your goal is tanking, five levels of IF allow you to create DR." This can then augment your ability to tank.

Here's where I differ from the build, however. Part of a Crusader's power comes from the delayed damage pool. Basically, it's a pool of temporary HP, and based on how much damage you have in it, you can increase the damage you deal. It's a powerful tool when used effectively. Unfortunately, once you have things like DR in play, you're reducing the amount of damage going into the pool, which in turn reduces your damage output. In essence, you're actually hurting the Crusader's class feature by reducing damage taken. (He doesn't care, anyway - he can self-heal, thanks to Devoted Spirit maneuvers.)

Warblade, though? He loves him some DR.

I should also note that if you take 1 level of Incarnate, and 5 levels of IF, you still have 14 levels for Warblade or Crusader - that's the magic number, chief. That would be the amount needed to access a 9th-level maneuver. And although you don't receive a new Maneuver Known at Wbl 14 or Crs 14, because it's an even level, you can swap one out for a 9th-level maneuver.

Just something to consider.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Something I just noticed.

Normal Adamantium Full Plate has DR 3. The warforged feat gives 2, is this a typo or is the warforged intentionally nerfed here in DR potential?


Ironsoul should be taken for at least 2 levels, due to the awesome resistances to energy damage it provides. You can easily have 30 points of resistance to most energy types using it. The SOS it adds to your melee attacks as a capstone is really nice as well. I wouldn't discount it.

Also, I love a Iron ward crystal for your plating. It does wonders for making you hard to hurt. 5/- DR added on top of the normal DR you are running around with can be really funny. 30/ad or 22/- shouldn't be out of reach.

Crusader and warblade are there just for nice, full BAB, useful classes. The crusader delay damage pool is nice.

Crusader explanation - Highest level devoted spirit strike - You hit someone and cast heal. Seriously, HEAL. You can do it every 3-4 rounds.

Ah. I might look into Iron Soul, it depends on what direction the build goes.

Though if Crusader's main highlight is something only available end game and at that only use-able once ever 3-4 rounds I'd rather look for something else and just get health drain weapon enchants on my weapon.

Looking at the Crystal. It looks I need to spend HP for the DR? I can see the use in that for mobs, but not so much against bigger targets.

[Fouredged Sword]

No on how the crystal works. It provides DR/- that stacks with other DR, but after absorbing X damage, it turns off.

Get several, change them out between combats.

They are not worth it for most characters, due to the fact that they are basically +25 temp HP a day (not bad, but there are better options). Oh a high DR character, they raise the bar for dealing ANY damage to you to a point that most things can't hurt you until they deplete the crystal.

The heal strike is also the last of a nice long line of healing strikes. Right from level 1 strikes you can be doing 1d8+5, all the way up. You can set yourself up that you heal yourself EVERY ROUND without stopping your swinging.

All of this stacks with health draining weapons and all the other great goodies you can use to keep yourself alive.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Your Martial Adept class (Warblade/Crusader) remains your primary source of damage. The primary functions of Ironsoul Forgemaster are (1) increasing access to soulmelds and meldshaper level, (2) boosting your crafting, and (3) the ability to invest chakra in crafted armor/weapons. For your build in particular, the ability at IF 5, Armor Bond, basically allows you to create DR out of the ether. Invest essentia, gain DR, ba-boom.

It's not a question of whether Warblade/Crusader helps IF, it's a question of whether IF helps Warblade/Crusader. And the answer is "Yes, if your goal is tanking, five levels of IF allow you to create DR." This can then augment your ability to tank.

Here's where I differ from the build, however. Part of a Crusader's power comes from the delayed damage pool. Basically, it's a pool of temporary HP, and based on how much damage you have in it, you can increase the damage you deal. It's a powerful tool when used effectively. Unfortunately, once you have things like DR in play, you're reducing the amount of damage going into the pool, which in turn reduces your damage output. In essence, you're actually hurting the Crusader's class feature by reducing damage taken. (He doesn't care, anyway - he can self-heal, thanks to Devoted Spirit maneuvers.)

Warblade, though? He loves him some DR.

I should also note that if you take 1 level of Incarnate, and 5 levels of IF, you still have 14 levels for Warblade or Crusader - that's the magic number, chief. That would be the amount needed to access a 9th-level maneuver. And although you don't receive a new Maneuver Known at Wbl 14 or Crs 14, because it's an even level, you can swap one out for a 9th-level maneuver.

Just something to consider.

So I'll probably stick with Warblade.

I don't like Crusader's randomness and reliance on Dexterity.

As for essentia. I did the math and by the end I'd have 5 to invest.
Is this enough? I know I can get more through feats but that takes away from the roll with it feats... so I'd have to think it's a damn good investment like I did with the other three.

1. Adamantium Body (DR 2 right there, plus AC)
2. Improved Toughness (+1 HP per level, eventually act's act's roll with it 10 times over depending on how much damage the foe I'm fighting does)
3. Stone Power (+2 Temp HP per level up to Level 5. Basically 5 Roll with it's assuming I only get hit once a turn).

+With 2 & 3: Nice to have some high HP for when DR is passed or ignored.

[Gwazi Magnum]

No on how the crystal works. It provides DR/- that stacks with other DR, but after absorbing X damage, it turns off.

Get several, change them out between combats.

They are not worth it for most characters, due to the fact that they are basically +25 temp HP a day (not bad, but there are better options). Oh a high DR character, they raise the bar for dealing ANY damage to you to a point that most things can't hurt you until they deplete the crystal.

The heal strike is also the last of a nice long line of healing strikes. Right from level 1 strikes you can be doing 1d8+5, all the way up. You can set yourself up that you heal yourself EVERY ROUND without stopping your swinging.

All of this stacks with health draining weapons and all the other great goodies you can use to keep yourself alive.

So basically it's DR, but stops being DR once it get's pierced enough?

Interesting, and risky so I'm not sure if that's where I want to invest gold into.

As for strikes, I can also get damaging strikes on Warblade that would work with life-drain weapons and it benefits me the whole game.

I don't doubt end-game Crusader may be better, but starting at level 1 I want something that can be strong and usable right from the start as well.

[Fouredged Sword]

I wouldn't take stone power unless you are getting the crusaders delay damage pool to soak it. I find using it preventative encourages things to ignore your strikes that will miss like crazy. I would pick up power attack instead and kill things to survive.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I wouldn't take stone power unless you are getting the crusaders delay damage pool to soak it. I find using it preventative encourages things to ignore your strikes that will miss like crazy. I would pick up power attack instead and kill things to survive.

I plan on going sword and shield here, main damage source being from hammer of earth's CON mod to damage which doesn't stack two handed, this wouldn't get Power Attack the best return.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would then drop it in favor of another roll with it. Really, hitting consistently will be more important than 10 temp hp and a whiff later in the game.

[Honjuden]

It may be worth noting that, if I remember properly, the Crusader's healing strikes are still subject to the warforged healing reduction.

[lytokk]

Adamantine body DR of 2 isn't a misprint. Was intended to be that way, as far as I remember reading on some Q&A with Keith Baker some months ago. Also, I think I remember reading heavy armor can interfere with some barbarian abilities, but that may have just been the fast movement.

I've never played a ToB character, but after really pouring over that book, I do think that Crusader really is the best class for a tank type character, in that using maneuvers and stances to heal yourself or your allies, and imposing penalties on baddies that aren't attacking you.

I'd recommend Mithral over adamantine body, since it won't slow down your movement and will allow you to move around the battlefield much easier.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I would then drop it in favor of another roll with it. Really, hitting consistently will be more important than 10 temp hp and a whiff later in the game.

Maybe. :/
I can see your logic though.


It may be worth noting that, if I remember properly, the Crusader's healing strikes are still subject to the warforged healing reduction.

Does it count as positive energy?

[Greenish]

Does it count as positive energy?No, it counts as Supernatural ability that heals hitpoint damage.

[Edit]: Oh, it's not. Never mind then.

[lytokk]

I thought warforged only had the partial immunity to healing effects through the healing subschool. So any crusader maneuver that heals and in the text say "as if affected by cure X spell" or something of that nature, would still heal half amounts, but if it says "heal x amounts of damage" then full. Goodberry is an example of a spell that heals damage, but isn't of the healing subschool, granted its a low amount, but its a healing affect.. effect... affect?

[Honjuden]

I may have been thinking of the 9th level strike which is a heal spell cast as by a cleric of your level.

[Red Fel]

I may have been thinking of the 9th level strike which is a heal spell cast as by a cleric of your level.

That's correct. That one is affected by the Warforged healing reduction.

Any maneuver that simply says "you heal X," such as the Martial Spirit stance or Crusader Strike strike, heals normally, even on a Warforged, because it's not the healing subschool. But Strike of Righteous Vitality (the Devoted Spirit 9th-level maneuver) specifically calls out the Heal spell, which is in the subschool, and thus is only half-effective for a Warforged. Note that Strike of Righteous Vitality affects the user or one ally within 10 feet, so it's still pretty potent.

Remember, even if he can't fully heal himself, a Crusader remains one of the most effective in-combat healers, in some ways outclassing even dedicated healing casters.

[Honjuden]

I am not saying the Crusader is a bad choice by any means. It is probably the best tanking class in the game.