What is so great about the shadesteel golem?

[Crake]

I hear people raving about it quite often (most notably tippy) but I don't quite see what makes it so great compared to all the other golems out there.

[eggynack]

It might have something to do with shadow blend, which grants the golems some stealth, especially when combined with the massive bonus to move silently and hide, and the factotum levels that Tippy traditionally uses. Mundane invisibility is the best invisibility. The perfect flight may also be a factor, though likely a smaller one.

[Eldariel]

I hear people raving about it quite often (most notably tippy) but I don't quite see what makes it so great compared to all the other golems out there.

Naa, they aren't amazing, they're just solid all-around bruisers. The big thing about them is that they're golems that are actually self-sufficient and solid. Golem means they can be manufactured without needing actual high level characters (a precious commodity) and they have all their bases covered decently: natural flight, magic immunity, hard to detect, decent damage output in basically 6d6 free damage every 1d4+1 turns and some attacks, etc.

Mostly, they're just among the best craftable underlings you can have an infinite amount of with relatively little effort.

[Ravens_cry]

Plus, they just look so wonderfully wrong, in a way that reminds me of Xenomorphs or (spoiler) future Doctor Smith from the Lost in Space film, only less biological and organ and more mechanical. How many creatures can you describe as "Its tail curves over its spine, the skull-like head attached to the end'? Not many I would imagine.

[Crake]

Golem means they can be manufactured without needing actual high level characters

Looking at it now, it would seem that they can only be created by 17th level or higher characters, so unless I'm missing something, that's not particularly low level?

[TuggyNE]

Looking at it now, it would seem that they can only be created by 17th level or higher characters, so unless I'm missing something, that's not particularly low level?

I think his meaning was that you only need one such high-level character, rather than needing a whole army of them.

[Eldariel]

Looking at it now, it would seem that they can only be created by 17th level or higher characters, so unless I'm missing something, that's not particularly low level?

Sorry, poor wording on my part. Point was, Shadesteel Golems can be manufactured (by high level characters). You can't really manufacture more high level characters (easily) to fulfill those bruiser roles for you but you can manufacture Golems so it's more optimal to use automatons for secondary roles such as bruisers, than to use actual high level characters of that role.

[cakellene]

where can they be found?

[Crake]

where can they be found?

Monster Manual III

[Eldariel]

where can they be found?

Monster Manual III

EDIT: Shadow Blend'd.

[Emperor Tippy]

1) They make about the best bodies to True Mind Switch with as you pick up perfect flight, immunity to magic, a Dex and Strength bump, all of the Construct Immunities, are still Medium size, and get to basically be a transhuman android which is just cool.

2) They are the best minions you can get. Perfect flight, immunity to magic, total loyalty, and relatively cheap to pump up to 20+ HD. Spend the 8,000 GP when you craft it and it gets an Int score equal to half your CL; an ECL 17 character can potentially have an effective CL of 40 to 60 or so which means a base Int score of somewhere between 20 and 30. This gets the Golem skill points and feats, and with over 20 HD it can qualify for Epic Feats. Exceptional + Infinite Deflection is quite tasty. Throw on a permanent telepathic bond and a Heightened to 9th Shadow Evocation Invisible Continual Flame and it gets to always act as Hasted and heal 9 points per round. Throw on Hide Life and it becomes immune to death/destruction from HP damage.

All told, for about 250K you can make a creature that will tear through pretty much any standard CR 20 challenge like a hot chainsaw through butter.

And once you have the template created you can go and use Ice Assassin to make yourself as many copies as you desire for (even if you actually pay for the IA's) about ten percent of the cost.

3) As a DM they make great opponents to throw at your players. Especially if you throw on non associated class levels. Extra fun is had by pairing the Shadesteel or two up with a few Umbral Spies.

----
Shadesteel Golems are the best general purpose construct or minion in the game. Frankly if you build and equip one right it will probably tear through a Leadership Cohort as well, except you have total control over it and it doesn't get any of your XP (being a magic item of yours). If you want to play a high level minion master they are also a better choice than any of the undead. Do it right and you can make the Lord of Blades and his Warforged look like little kids trying to imitate the real robot army.

[cakellene]

Is there any way to awaken a golem in order to use it as a PC?

[Emperor Tippy]

Is there any way to awaken a golem in order to use it as a PC?

Have it use a scroll of Shapechange (or any other method of form shifting) to take the form of a Shield Guardian or any other Construct type that can be hit with Awaken Construct and then have it revert back to its normal form.

It's still LA - so by the RAW a PC can't start with one though.

That doesn't, however, matter once you can afford to purchase one, a scroll of shapechange, and a power stone of True Mind Switch. Then you get to play in your tasty Golem body without having to worry about pesky things like HD or LA.

[cakellene]

Have it use a scroll of Shapechange (or any other method of form shifting) to take the form of a Shield Guardian or any other Construct type that can be hit with Awaken Construct and then have it revert back to its normal form.

It's still LA - so by the RAW a PC can't start with one though.

That doesn't, however, matter once you can afford to purchase one, a scroll of shapechange, and a power stone of True Mind Switch. Then you get to play in your tasty Golem body without having to worry about pesky things like HD or LA.

Would you then have 18 racial HD plus your class levels?

[Emperor Tippy]

Would you then have 18 racial HD plus your class levels?

No, you would just have your class levels.

[Crake]

1) They make about the best bodies to True Mind Switch with as you pick up perfect flight, immunity to magic, a Dex and Strength bump, all of the Construct Immunities, are still Medium size, and get to basically be a transhuman android which is just cool.

2) They are the best minions you can get. Perfect flight, immunity to magic, total loyalty, and relatively cheap to pump up to 20+ HD. Spend the 8,000 GP when you craft it and it gets an Int score equal to half your CL; an ECL 17 character can potentially have an effective CL of 40 to 60 or so which means a base Int score of somewhere between 20 and 30. This gets the Golem skill points and feats, and with over 20 HD it can qualify for Epic Feats. Exceptional + Infinite Deflection is quite tasty. Throw on a permanent telepathic bond and a Heightened to 9th Shadow Evocation Invisible Continual Flame and it gets to always act as Hasted and heal 9 points per round. Throw on Hide Life and it becomes immune to death/destruction from HP damage.

All told, for about 250K you can make a creature that will tear through pretty much any standard CR 20 challenge like a hot chainsaw through butter.

And once you have the template created you can go and use Ice Assassin to make yourself as many copies as you desire for (even if you actually pay for the IA's) about ten percent of the cost.

3) As a DM they make great opponents to throw at your players. Especially if you throw on non associated class levels. Extra fun is had by pairing the Shadesteel or two up with a few Umbral Spies.

----
Shadesteel Golems are the best general purpose construct or minion in the game. Frankly if you build and equip one right it will probably tear through a Leadership Cohort as well, except you have total control over it and it doesn't get any of your XP (being a magic item of yours). If you want to play a high level minion master they are also a better choice than any of the undead. Do it right and you can make the Lord of Blades and his Warforged look like little kids trying to imitate the real robot army.

Sounds like the sort of thing I'd love to do with my wizard if I were a) higher level, and b) had a less time-sensitive campaign.

[Swaoeaeieu]

every time i read ideas like these from tippy i get goosebumps

[Segev]

The next obvious question, to me, is: Pretend that a Shadesteel Golem was actually somebody's PC, achieved through a class/race combination. Not a spellcaster mind-swapped into one, but somebody actually invested their class levels and WBL into the features a Shadesteel Golem has.

What tier would such a creature be, assuming the PC has an ECL equal to the CR that the Shadesteel Golem has as a monster?

I'm guessing still just Tier 3, but if it's so much stronger than even optimized physical-fighter-types, I'm curious if this starts to represent what one should aim for in elevating fighter-type classes to even begin to close the gap with spellcasters.

[Brookshw]

every time i read ideas like these from tippy i get goosebumps

You're not alone!

[Emperor Tippy]

The next obvious question, to me, is: Pretend that a Shadesteel Golem was actually somebody's PC, achieved through a class/race combination. Not a spellcaster mind-swapped into one, but somebody actually invested their class levels and WBL into the features a Shadesteel Golem has.

What tier would such a creature be, assuming the PC has an ECL equal to the CR that the Shadesteel Golem has as a monster?

I'm guessing still just Tier 3, but if it's so much stronger than even optimized physical-fighter-types, I'm curious if this starts to represent what one should aim for in elevating fighter-type classes to even begin to close the gap with spellcasters.

Tier 3 but one of the best Tier 3's in the game hands down. The Shadesteel is about one of the worst offenders on the CR scale, being notoriously under CRed. It starts at CR 11 with 18 HD on top of all of its special features.

Advance it to 26 HD and its a measly CR 13. Throw on the +2 LA from Rudimentary Intelligence and its only CR 15. While it qualifies for epic feats and has 9 feats. Dump 5 of those into the Deflect Arrows line and you get to punch ranged attacks back into the attackers face while also being immune to magic, this basically means that melee is all that will harm you. Do the Ritual of Shadow Walking and you can win for life as you can step into the "shadowstuff" and take 3d4 points of damage every round while healing 9 points ever round, averaging you 1.5 HP per round and there exists no way under the RAW for anyone to do anything to you while you hang out in the "shadow stuff", if you can get the Greater Shadow Evocation Sanctum Spelled and Heightened to 11th level then you will (at worst) break even every round, which means you get to heal up to full whenever you want.

Granted, I would replace those HD with PC levels (you can cram in 18 before you hit CR 20) to pick up all kinds of nice little things.

Very solid tier 3 basically, with the potential to be a decent threat to moderate op tier 1 and tier 2.

[CockroachTeaParty]

How can you True Mindswitch with the golem when it has immunity to magic? True Mindswitch allows PR/SR.

Edit: It's also a construct, so it'd be immune to mind affecting...

[Crake]

How can you True Mindswitch with the golem when it has immunity to magic? True Mindswitch allows PR/SR.

Immunities of any kind can be voluntarily lowered iirc, as can SR, and since the golem is under your complete control, you can order it to lower its immunity

[Emperor Tippy]

How can you True Mindswitch with the golem when it has immunity to magic? True Mindswitch allows PR/SR.

Edit: It's also a construct, so it'd be immune to mind affecting...

What Crake said along with (if the DM makes an actual issue of it) a Skin of Proteus to take human form. That makes it a valid TMS target and once in the body you remove the Skin of Proteus and are back in "your" construct body.

[cakellene]

I thought WotC said a demilich (which has magic immunity) can't lower it's SR, wouldn't same apply here?

I found another option, soulfused template. You lose construct traits and gain living construct traits.

[Segev]

Even if it can't lower its PR/SR, you could make sure one of its skills is UMD and have IT use the True Mind Switch item (maybe a power stone?) on YOU. You don't have SR/PR.


Now for two more questions:

1) How would you have a CR 15 or 16 Tier 1 defeat the fully-optimized, by-the-rules CR 15 or 16 Shadesteel Golem?

2) What can't it do that keeps it out of Tier 2 or 1?

[Emperor Tippy]

How would you have a CR 15 or 16 Tier 1 defeat the fully-optimized, by-the-rules CR 15 or 16 Shadesteel Golem?
Pretty much however I felt like. Well played Tier 1 it practically defined by limitless options.


2) What can't it do that keeps it out of Tier 2 or 1?
Most everything.

To be considered for Tier 2 requires pretty much one thing and one thing only; a minimum of nation shattering power. If your class doesn't have the ability to render harmless at least an entire nation inside of 48 hours then it doesn't meet the bare minimum power requires to be tier 2 or tier 1.

The different between Tier 1 and Tier 2 has virtually nothing at all to do with direct power and everything to do with versatility. To be Tier 1 your class must be able to do pretty much anything on 48 hours notice.

To be Tier 0 your class must be able to do pretty much anything on 6 seconds notice.

[Segev]

Pretty much however I felt like. Well played Tier 1 it practically defined by limitless options.I suppose 15th or 16th level is still 8th level spells, so yeah, I can see where you're coming from here.



To be considered for Tier 2 requires pretty much one thing and one thing only; a minimum of nation shattering power. If your class doesn't have the ability to render harmless at least an entire nation inside of 48 hours then it doesn't meet the bare minimum power requires to be tier 2 or tier 1.By what level must you be able to do this to be Tier 2?

I am decent at optimizing, but certainly not a godling at it, so my imagination doesn't quite empower me to play Tier 1s at their full potential. I admit that I cannot see how to shatter nations as, say, a level 6 Sorcerer. I also am not sure I could do it as a level 12. Maybe by level 14 or 16, when the more powerful duplication-of-entities spells come into play?

But is there a level minimum by which you must be able to shatter nations to be Tier 2, or is this just as "if you can do it at any level?"

[Emperor Tippy]

By what level must you be able to do this to be Tier 2?
For shattering nations? Somewhere between levels 10 and 15 probably. And note that this is class potential, not necessarily any given individual member of that class.


I am decent at optimizing, but certainly not a godling at it, so my imagination doesn't quite empower me to play Tier 1s at their full potential. I admit that I cannot see how to shatter nations as, say, a level 6 Sorcerer. I also am not sure I could do it as a level 12. Maybe by level 14 or 16, when the more powerful duplication-of-entities spells come into play?
Level 6 is third level spells. A level 6 Sorcerer can throw out 4 fireballs. That is enough to pretty much burn down a village in less than 30 seconds, or gut a moderately sized military force. And this is the Sorcerer being crappy. With Explosive Runes and two days the Sorcerer can throw out a 10 foot radius blast that deals 40d6 or so force damage, given a few months of down time and he can make a man portable, innocuous, bomb that can shatter adamantium walls.

Level 6 isn't nation shattering for a Sorcerer but you can certainly see the hints of it and it's still "decent sized town" shattering.

Level 12 gets you 6th level spells. That means Planar Binding is available, and that alone is enough to gut a nation in short order. A level 12 Sorcerer can, if he so desires, carry around in the palm of his hand an entire legion of Trumpet Archons (each can cast as a level 14 Cleric and has at Will greater teleport in addition to numerous other abilities) with no more investment than a month or so of his time at some point in his life. Said legion can be deployed in a standard action.


But is there a level minimum by which you must be able to shatter nations to be Tier 2, or is this just as "if you can do it at any level?"
Generally, if you can do it by level 15 you probably have a decent argument for Tier 2. The Truenamer, for example, can do virtually anything that any of the Tier 1 classes can do once he hits level 20 and gets Conjunctive Gate but its not really a Tier 2 class (as at every level before that it is lucky to break tier 4).

[Segev]

Hm, alright. Thanks for the explanations. (I'm curious how you carry the archons in the palm of your hand and deploy them as a standard action, though I get the seed of it is in Planar Binding.)

To bring it back around, I suppose a Shadesteel Golem is only Tier 3 because it's only town-shattering, and at twice to three times the CR of the town-shattering sorcerer.


Would a particularly intelligent Wight bringing about a Wightocolypse on purpose count as a Tier 2 threat? ...probably not, it isn't versatile enough to do more than "break nations."

[Emperor Tippy]

Hm, alright. Thanks for the explanations. (I'm curious how you carry the archons in the palm of your hand and deploy them as a standard action, though I get the seed of it is in Planar Binding.)
Combine with Smokey Confinement and basically treat it like Russian Nesting Dolls while storing the last one in a Glove of the Master Strategist or Glove of Storing.


To bring it back around, I suppose a Shadesteel Golem is only Tier 3 because it's only town-shattering, and at twice to three times the CR of the town-shattering sorcerer.
It's Tier 3 because it will never be, independent of circumstances, anything more than a tactical threat.


Would a particularly intelligent Wight bringing about a Wightocolypse on purpose count as a Tier 2 threat? ...probably not, it isn't versatile enough to do more than "break nations."
Nah, too easy to stop and/or counter.

[Chronos]

An out-of-the-box Shadesteel Golem, considered tier-wise, suffers from the Monk Problem: It's really hard to kill, but it can't really do much of anything. Its offense is limited to its short-range and easily prevented negative energy wave, its fists, and whatever weapon it might wield. What's to stop an enemy from just passing it by?

Of course, things are different for a caster mindswitched into one, because then you've got plenty of active options from your spells to complement the golem's passive defenses.

[Emperor Tippy]

An out-of-the-box Shadesteel Golem, considered tier-wise, suffers from the Monk Problem: It's really hard to kill, but it can't really do much of anything. Its offense is limited to its short-range and easily prevented negative energy wave, its fists, and whatever weapon it might wield. What's to stop an enemy from just passing it by?

Of course, things are different for a caster mindswitched into one, because then you've got plenty of active options from your spells to complement the golem's passive defenses.

Short of teleport though, getting away from a regular old vanilla Shadesteel can be a royal pain though. 90 ft. perfect fly speed is one of the best movement methods in the game.

Granted, as with everything else, tactics matter a lot more than CR or even abilities.

[jedipotter]

Immunities of any kind can be voluntarily lowered iirc, as can SR, and since the golem is under your complete control, you can order it to lower its immunity

Where is this from? MMV, for example, says a creature can not lower an Immunity.

[Morcleon]

Where is this from? MMV, for example, says a creature can not lower an Immunity.

It comes from the PHB, with the example on an elf being able to lower its immunity to sleep. As the PHB is 3.5 and MM5 is 3.0, the MM5 ruling is overturned.

[Eldariel]

It comes from the PHB, with the example on an elf being able to lower its immunity to sleep. As the PHB is 3.5 and MM5 is 3.0, the MM5 ruling is overturned.

MM5 is 3.0? Wut? It's a late 3.5 book.

[cakellene]

MM5 is 3.0? Wut? It's a late 3.5 book.

Aye, copyright is 2007.

[Morcleon]

MM5 is 3.0? Wut? It's a late 3.5 book.

Is it? :smallconfused: I was under the assumption that all the MMs after thefirst were 3.0 material. :smallconfused:

The PHB still overrides the MM5 due to it being the primary sources of how the game works.

[Vhaidara]

MM 2 was a 3.0 released after 3.5, the rest were 3.5.

And that is immunity to a status. Spell Resistance, and therefore magic immunity (SR x+1) are a different matter.

[Andezzar]

Is it? :smallconfused: I was under the assumption that all the MMs after thefirst were 3.0 material. :smallconfused:No, only MM2 is 3.0 and has gotten an update document. Thus all MMs are 3.5


The PHB still overrides the MM5 due to it being the primary sources of how the game works.Unless you are talking about a creature in the MM5, then specific trumps general. Or even better Ask your DM

[sleepyphoenixx]

And that is immunity to a status. Spell Resistance, and therefore magic immunity (SR x+1) are a different matter.

Spell Resistance can be voluntarily lowered. See SRD:Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance).
The problem with using True Mind Switch on a Shadesteel Golem is
A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.

It doesn't matter if the golem can lower it's immunity to magic and/or mind-affecting since it has no int score. The Skin of Proteus works to remove the immunities since it removes racial qualities but you still need Int 1 to be a viable target for True Mind Switch.

[Metahuman1]

What Crake said along with (if the DM makes an actual issue of it) a Skin of Proteus to take human form. That makes it a valid TMS target and once in the body you remove the Skin of Proteus and are back in "your" construct body.

Could you please site book and page where they say that Immunity's can be voluntarily lowered?

And were a Skin of Proteus can be found?

I have a character who would FLIP to be able to play a trans-human character.

[jedipotter]

Is it? :smallconfused: I was under the assumption that all the MMs after thefirst were 3.0 material. :smallconfused:

The PHB still overrides the MM5 due to it being the primary sources of how the game works.

The so called rule does not work that way. Things in the PHB still follow the rule of ''whatever is newest is the rule''. MM5 says creatures can't lower immunities, and that is way after the PHB.

[sleepyphoenixx]

and relatively cheap to pump up to 20+ HD. Spend the 8,000 GP when you craft it and it gets an Int score equal to half your CL;


I'm not familiar with those rules. Could we get a source for the advancement cost and adding Int please?

[Necroticplague]

I'm not familiar with those rules. Could we get a source for the advancement cost and adding Int please?

on't know about advancing hd, but i know there's a feat called Rudimentary Intelligence that allows you to spend more to give crafter constructs better mental stats, including an int score.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm not familiar with those rules. Could we get a source for the advancement cost and adding Int please?


Note: The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golem’s size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golem’s market price minus the cost of the special materials required.

Int comes from Dragon #327. Pay 8,000 GP more when crafting a golem and you get to give it an Int score equal to half your CL.


Could you please site book and page where they say that Immunity's can be voluntarily lowered?
" Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality. "
SRD under Voluntarily giving up a saving throw. It's in the PHB under the same header and includes the specific example of an Elf lowering its immunity to Sleep spells.


And were a Skin of Proteus can be found?
Expanded Psionics Handbook and the SRD.

[Urpriest]

The so called rule does not work that way. Things in the PHB still follow the rule of ''whatever is newest is the rule''. MM5 says creatures can't lower immunities, and that is way after the PHB.

"Whatever is newest is the rule" is not an actual rule. It ought to be, but it isn't. There are "primary source" rules in the errata documents, and if you interpret them literally as Curmudgeon is wont to do, they institute a rule that basically comes out as "whatever is oldest is the rule".

[Phelix-Mu]

"Whatever is newest is the rule" is not an actual rule. It ought to be, but it isn't. There are "primary source" rules in the errata documents, and if you interpret them literally as Curmudgeon is wont to do, they institute a rule that basically comes out as "whatever is oldest is the rule".

And, lo, he said unto the nations of the world "Let us inspire endless rules debate with our thoroughly nonsensical primary source rules."

Merry X-mas and Happy Holidays, GitP! And long live the king rules!

[Emperor Tippy]

Technically the primary source rules actually go as follows.

Players: PHB Errata -> PHB -> Rules Compendium -> All other books pretty much equal with most of their actual rules only applying to that specific book -> Adventure paths.

Monsters: MM1 Errata -> MM1 -> Rules Compendium -> All other books pretty much equal with most of their actual rules only applying to that specific book -> Adventure paths.

General rules that aren't covered by one of the previous two cases: DMG Errata -> DMG -> Rules Compendium -> All otehr books pretty much equal with most of their actual rules only applying to that specific book -> Adventure paths.

The exception: XPH is the core psionics book and can be expanded upon by other books but not overridden in regards to psionics, this applies to a bare handful of other similar situations (as most splat book classes don't tend to have any real support outside of their splat).

Needless to say this can be incredibly stupid.

[Andezzar]

Then why does the Rules Compendium have rules changes, if they can never be used?

[Phelix-Mu]

Then why does the Rules Compendium have rules changes, if they can never be used?

Because, by the time it came out, 3.5 was in its dotage. See the new releases of the core rulebooks + SC and MIC? Yeah, those were pretty worthless as well. They just didn't devote that many resources to 3e after a certain point, so wishing for a comprehensive new look at old problems was really beyond the scope of that book. Even though that's pretty much the premise on which Rules Compendium was brought into existence.

Rules Compendium has some useful stuff for some cases, and collects some of the expanded rules that were developed on various topics as new books came out. But really more just "some rules" and less "a compendium."

[Piggy Knowles]

In general, Rules Compendium is more about clarifying and explaining existing rules than it is creating new rules.

[Phelix-Mu]

In general, Rules Compendium is more about clarifying and explaining existing rules than it is creating new rules.

That and it's price tag pretty much summed it up.

[Urpriest]

Then why does the Rules Compendium have rules changes, if they can never be used?

Because nobody at WotC thought the primary source rules meant what they actually did.

The point of the primary source rules appears to be to preempt errata by saying that if a later book contradicts an earlier book then that later book is mistaken. The people who wrote that rule don't appear to have thought that later books would every intentionally contradict earlier books in order to change them. This makes sense, since in a real company run by actual professionals, when they wanted to change the rules, they publish errata.

Basically, Rules Compendium should have been actual errata. Same with the "stealth" errata in Complete Psionic (that stuff which was merited at all).

[Stegyre]

Technically the primary source rules actually go as follows.

Players: PHB Errata -> PHB -> Rules Compendium -> All other books pretty much equal with most of their actual rules only applying to that specific book -> Adventure paths.

Monsters: MM1 Errata -> MM1 -> Rules Compendium -> All other books pretty much equal with most of their actual rules only applying to that specific book -> Adventure paths.

General rules that aren't covered by one of the previous two cases: DMG Errata -> DMG -> Rules Compendium -> All otehr books pretty much equal with most of their actual rules only applying to that specific book -> Adventure paths.
Debatable: the RC (in the Intro, specifically) expressly makes itself primary for every rule it contains:

When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence.

[Rubik]

Debatable: the RC (in the Intro, specifically) expressly makes itself primary for every rule it contains:Problem for a lot of people is that they A.) don't own it, and B.) don't think that it has the authority to make itself a primary source.

[Urpriest]

Debatable: the RC (in the Intro, specifically) expressly makes itself primary for every rule it contains:

Yes, but the nature of errata is that it corrects rules in the books. As soon as Rules Compendium was published, the errata's primary source rules retroactively removed its claim to precedence.

[Stegyre]

Yes, but the nature of errata is that it corrects rules in the books. As soon as Rules Compendium was published, the errata's primary source rules retroactively removed its claim to precedence.
Yes, that's the debate. I am doing no more than pointing out that the stated precedence is by no means iron-clad: the RC supports a substantial argument against it.

Who is actually right is a meaningless question, and hence a good subject for the next ten pages of any thread.

[Skysaber]

Throw on Hide Life and it becomes immune to death/destruction from HP damage.

This confuses me. I've read Hide Life and it specifically talks about concentrating your life to a body part, then cutting off that body part and hiding it. Then so long as that part with your life force within it exists, you are pretty much immune to death by HD damage.

But the thing that gets me is: how do you hide or concentrate a quality which every source on constructs agrees they don't have?

[Phelix-Mu]

I think that the debate only points out that, at multiple times, WotC didn't really think this whole process of precedence and such through. Which makes me (with a combination of math and English skills) fume; a lack of both logical rigor and any kind of formal approach to their own body of work is pretty reprehensible.

But, of course, it's easy for me to sit here all this time later, with no skin in the game, and cast aspersions.

[unseenmage]

This confuses me. I've read Hide Life and it specifically talks about concentrating your life to a body part, then cutting off that body part and hiding it. Then so long as that part with your life force within it exists, you are pretty much immune to death by HD damage.

But the thing that gets me is: how do you hide or concentrate a quality which every source on constructs agrees they don't have?

By making them a Humanoid first via Greater Humanoid Essence (RoE)?

[Rubik]

There are several ways to actually become a shadesteel golem if you want to.

Giving the golem a psychoactive skin of proteus or a soul crystal (from the power of the same name in MoI) of Metamorphosis can turn it into something alive, which you can then use Fusion on before dismissing the Metamorphosis effect and manifesting Astral Seed.

Casting a supernatural Polymorph Any Object or Awaken Golem will give it an Intelligence score, which allows you to use a supernatural True Mind Switch.

A supernatural Magic Jar (or the ghost version) will give it to you for a time, which you can then use Astral Seed or what have you.

Be a warforged and using the Magic Mantle, Reserves of Strength, Metamorphosis, Metamorphic Transfer, and Temporal Reiteration (either through a resetting magical trap or through the metamind's capstone) to extend the duration indefinitely.

Shapechange always works, too, and it lasts for a very long time.

[geekintheground]

how LONG would it take to make a shadesteel golem? (taking 10, and moderately optimized for crafting). i ask, because it involves a lot of math that i dont understand and since it has to be made on the shadow plane, you cant use planar time traits to cheese through it.

[ryu]

how LONG would it take to make a shadesteel golem? (taking 10, and moderately optimized for crafting). i ask, because it involves a lot of math that i dont understand and since it has to be made on the shadow plane, you cant use planar time traits to cheese through it.

Acorn of far travel/planar bubble shenanigans. You CAN in fact stack as many planar effects as you like if you're willing to get crafty about it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Seems like a job for fabricate. Fabricate the body, but the rest needs to be enchanted, which isn't controlled by the Craft skill rules, but the item creation feat, Craft Construct.

I'd imagine the fast way to do it is to borrow the accelerated time trait from some plane with said trait using planar bubble, or Permanent Emanation(planar bubble), if your optimization diet can stomach it. Then go to the Plane of Shadow and do the crafting within the bubble.

[Darth Stabber]

If you want to play a high level minion master they are also a better choice than any of the undead.
The real question becomes "why not both?". Leading a mixed army of robots and zombies from the back of your zombie black dragon is too f'n metal to comprehend. Raw power is great, but there is still the concern of style points. Also undead are WAY easier, requiring some onyx and 6 seconds. And if you can make shadesteel golems you can make undead, so there is no compelling reason not to do both.

[Rubik]

A quick Wish would create it in one standard action, though it would cost you 5,000 xp, assuming no Shapechange/Planar Binding tricks.

[unseenmage]

A quick Wish would create it in one standard action, though it would cost you 5,000 xp, assuming no Shapechange/Planar Binding tricks.

Via the 'Golems are Magic Items' rules interpretation one Wish would make the entire Golem too.

[Vhaidara]

The real question becomes "why not both?". Leading a mixed army of robots and zombies from the back of your zombie black dragon is too f'n metal to comprehend. Raw power is great, but there is still the concern of style points. Also undead are WAY easier, requiring some onyx and 6 seconds. And if you can make shadesteel golems you can make undead, so there is no compelling reason not to do both.

There's also the fact that SSG main form of attack is a negative energy burst. What works really well with negative energy bursts again? Oh right. Undead.

[TuggyNE]

Who is actually right is a meaningless question, and hence a good subject for the next ten pages of any thread.

Haha. I should put that in my quotebox!

[Skysaber]

By making them a Humanoid first via Greater Humanoid Essence (RoE)?

If you read the 'make them humanoid' as alive, then the moment it expires that life would fade away with all of the other qualities granted. So if you had Hide Life active it would actually destroy you because the container full of your life would no longer be full and you'd automatically die.

[unseenmage]

If you read the 'make them humanoid' as alive, then the moment it expires that life would fade away with all of the other qualities granted. So if you had Hide Life active it would actually destroy you because the container full of your life would no longer be full and you'd automatically die.

Maybe. I've never found a good answer as to whether making them humanoid makes them count as alive or not.

It matters for 'Elation + Distilled Joy = Ambrosia (BoED)' farming too. And Wish Ferns from Dragon.

I just don't know if "all humanoids are alive" is how it works or not. At our table that's the assumption we've been working under though, for lack of a better answer.

[Skysaber]

Maybe. I've never found a good answer as to whether making them humanoid makes them count as alive or not.

Well, if it does work that way, then Hide Life kills you the moment GHE expires, and if it doesn't then you could never cast Hide Life as a construct. Right?

That's the way I am seeing things sort out. Am I missing something?

[Chronos]

If it gives you a Con score, it makes you count as alive. If not, it doesn't.

[Necroticplague]

Hide Life doesn't actually require you to be alive to start with, so its not horrifically relevant in the first place. Besides, golems and undead do have life-force, it's simply not positive energy forces like everything else. Golems have the animating force of an elemental (usually earth) within them, while the undead have their link the the Negative that keeps them going (and can be torn wider as they Evolve). Just cram that into the finger, just like a normal person shoves their positive energy life source into it.

[Chronos]

Well, a normal person doesn't really go around shoving their life-force into a finger at all.

[CIDE]

I was truly enlightened by this thread. This was awesome.

[Skysaber]

Hide Life doesn't actually require you to be alive to start with, so its not horrifically relevant in the first place. Besides, golems and undead do have life-force, it's simply not positive energy forces like everything else. Golems have the animating force of an elemental (usually earth) within them, while the undead have their link the the Negative that keeps them going (and can be torn wider as they Evolve). Just cram that into the finger, just like a normal person shoves their positive energy life source into it.

Regardless of what is animating them, it is not life. Says so specifically more times than I can count, in practically every reference to constructs.

If I tried to cast Stone Shape without any stone to shape, the spell would fail. So why should it work to hide a life you haven't got?

EDIT: I could paint a block of wood to very realistically resemble stone. I could use magic to alter its weight and hardness to that of stone. I could even build a castle out of it and tell everyone it was stone, to the point I had convinced everyone it was stone, and still Stone Shape would not work on it.

Last I heard, spells do not work on imitations, only the real thing.

Saying "Well, wood is brown like stone, and blocky like stone, and they both get used in construction so they are obviously equivalent, right?" <- this argument would not convince my DM to let me use Stone Shape on wood or vice versa.

C'mon, where are the rules lawyers this board is famous for? Why are you so accepting of the use of a spell that plainly and specifically affects life on something that is plainly and specifically not alive?

[Necroticplague]

C'mon, where are the rules lawyers this board is famous for? Why are you so accepting of the use of a spell that plainly and specifically affects life on something that is plainly and specifically not alive?

Because the spell doesn't ever say that it only works when the caster is living. Without such a line, it can be safely assumed it has no such limitation. Stone Shape very specifically says it only effects stone. Hide Life does not have anything similar within it.

[eggynack]

C'mon, where are the rules lawyers this board is famous for? Why are you so accepting of the use of a spell that plainly and specifically affects life on something that is plainly and specifically not alive?
I think the problem here is that the rules lawyers in question have already reached a verdict, and it's not the one you think is right. I mean, if you want to be really pedantic, the spell doesn't even say that it affects life. It says that it affects life force, which is both a different thing, and a rather undefined thing. If the spell didn't work here then it would say so. It's not like a targeting restriction to living creatures is an uncommon one.

[Darth Stabber]

There's also the fact that SSG main form of attack is a negative energy burst. What works really well with negative energy bursts again? Oh right. Undead.

Yeah, I have seen that combination abused before. Peanut butter meet chocolate.

[kalos72]

So whats the final stats on a top of the line Shadesteel Golem? Time to make and cost?

[geekintheground]

tippy said about 250k

[kalos72]

So 250k....

Time to build: 250 days based on the 1 day per 10k?

Stats?

[Rubik]

So 250k....Or 29k, for a scroll of Wish.


Time to build: 250 days based on the 1 day per 10k?Or one standard action.


Stats?In the MMIII, I believe.

[Dalebert]

Doesn't wish impose extra xp costs depending on the value of the item?

[Rubik]

Doesn't wish impose extra xp costs depending on the value of the item?Depends on if you consider a construct creature to be a magic item or not. Otherwise, a thought bottle lowers that to a mere 500 xp.

[edit] Or if you used an XP-less Wish from an efreeti or some other source.

[TuggyNE]

Depends on if you consider a construct creature to be a magic item or not.

Since all golems are made with an [item creation] feat, same as every other magic item, I don't see why they wouldn't count for that purpose.

[geekintheground]

could leadership get one as a cohort? if so, what level would you need to be?

[Coidzor]

So what's faster, wish-loops for actual Shadesteel Golems which are twinked out to specification or making the base Shadesteel Golem and then making Ice Assassins ad nauseum(and what method would one use, other than manually casting the spell every 8 hours?) as Tippy suggested?

I know there's some way of mitigating the Ice Assassin time and cost, but it slips my mind at present. Both wish loops and whatever method of obviating the time and resource costs of Ice Assassin seem to be on about the same level as far as comparing the cheese involved.

[unseenmage]

So what's faster, wish-loops for actual Shadesteel Golems which are twinked out to specification or making the base Shadesteel Golem and then making Ice Assassins ad nauseum(and what method would one use, other than manually casting the spell every 8 hours?) as Tippy suggested?

I know there's some way of mitigating the Ice Assassin time and cost, but it slips my mind at present. Both wish loops and whatever method of obviating the time and resource costs of Ice Assassin seem to be on about the same level as far as comparing the cheese involved.

Spellclocks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a) might do the trick.

If the 'Golems are Magic Items' interpretation is being used with 'Wish: Improve Magic Item' then a circle of Spellclocks could be used to a) make the Shadesteel Golems and b) improve them to whatever specifications one wants.

For mitigating the cost of the initial creation of the Spellclocks I'm less knowledgeable. Factotum perhaps?

The Tranference (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a) spell and Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) on one Spellsong Nightingale while also using the Create Water + Water to Acid combo and the Elation + Distilled Joy combo on the other Spellsong Nightingale can net you as much gp and craft xp as you could want while letting you buy non-craft xp for the Wish casting.

(Two charges of Create Water plus one charge of Water to Acid nets an obscene amount of gp, enough to mitigate the cost of Elation + Distilled Joy repetition.)

[Coidzor]

Spellclocks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a) might do the trick.


How often can a spellclock go off though? :smallconfused:

[unseenmage]

How often can a spellclock go off though? :smallconfused:

By RAW, IIRC every hour.
But if you buy enough of them you can have each of them go off on their own hour each set within a second or round of each other.

It's stinky cheese but Spellclocks are so poorly/vaguely worded that that's about the only thing they're good for. :smallfrown:


For even more hilarity you can even get Spellclocks making Spellclocks making other things, and that's where it gets just awful.

With the 'Golems as Magic Items' interpretation running you can also 'Combine Two Magic Items' via Wish: Improve Magic Item to make your Spellclocks and Shadesteel Golems the same Magic Item. That way they can go on making more and more of themselves forever in spiraling ever expanding circles.

Again, this is the stinkiest of cheese. I tried once to do the math but I was not up to the challenge. I just know it very rapidly makes an not-real number.

[herrhauptmann]

Question about building advanced SSG's.

It says early in this thread that if you advance them far enough, you can give them epic feats.
But how many epic feats? If my SSG somehow gets 10 feats (absurd, I know) can I make all 10 of them epic assuming I find ways to meet the prereqs? Or do I have to give them a few nonepic feats before making the rest epic? Again, ignoring the issue of prereqs.

[TuggyNE]

Question about building advanced SSG's.

It says early in this thread that if you advance them far enough, you can give them epic feats.
But how many epic feats? If my SSG somehow gets 10 feats (absurd, I know) can I make all 10 of them epic assuming I find ways to meet the prereqs? Or do I have to give them a few nonepic feats before making the rest epic? Again, ignoring the issue of prereqs.

As with any other creature, only feats gained at epic HD can be epic feats.

[ryu]

As with any other creature, only feats gained at epic HD can be epic feats.

And if you chaos shuffle all bets are off assuming you actually hit epic HD. Yes. We're totally chaos shuffling minions now.

[Gavinfoxx]

How do Shadesteel Golems get 90' fly speed? I only see 30' in MMIII.

And could someone please explain the exact level and method of which at which a gestalt Artificer//Factotum/Chameleon could start making top-spec Shadesteel Golems? I'm having a bit of a difficulty following the steps.

[Bronk]

Also, from the previous page, what is a 'wish fern', and where in Dragon is it?

[unseenmage]

Also, from the previous page, what is a 'wish fern', and where in Dragon is it?

Check out my sig, It's listed in there. It can't be touched by any living thing though so you'll need an Undead or Construct minion to farm the thing.

[Psyren]

Sounds like the sort of thing I'd love to do with my wizard if I were a) higher level, and b) had a less time-sensitive campaign.

Generally if you have the downtime to do this sort of thing, you're in a sandbox campaign or your DM is asleep at the wheel.

[Bronk]

Awesome, Unseenmage, thanks!