A Castle Sneaks Up On You: Bluff or Stealth? (PF)

[Drachasor]

So Pathfinder does have some neat stuff. Rules for creating and modifying Constructs, including permanent Animated Objects (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs).

So my character is going to get Craft Construct next level. Sometime down the line he'll make a flying Castle with it (Colossal Animated Object, just 30k to make).

So, seems to me a Stealth Check lets it sneak up on people if it isn't seen. If it is seen, then a Bluff check (unbelievable lie, perhaps) to move closer without anyone believing the building had moved. Granted, I'd have to buff either quite a bit to be effective.

Sound about right?

[WbtE]

I'm not sure that "right" is the word. :smallsmile:

[Ravens_cry]

There is no rules for using Bluff to creep up on someone.
I'd still apply the size penalty from Stealth if you did though, because, Stealth or Bluff, you are still trying to move a 'castle' without anybody bloody noticing.

[Drachasor]

There is no rules for using Bluff to creep up on someone.
I'd still apply the size penalty from Stealth if you did though, because, Stealth or Bluff, you are still trying to move a 'castle' without anybody bloody noticing.

I know there's no rule for it. Just seems like Bluff would be the skill to make people think you hadn't moved closer, which is distinctly different from them not being aware you are there.

I suppose a size penalty is one way. I was thinking it would be a "unbelievable lie" (+20 to DC) since such a bluff would be rather hard to believe if the whole castle moves 5ft closer.

[AMFV]

I know there's no rule for it. Just seems like Bluff would be the skill to make people think you hadn't moved closer, which is distinctly different from them not being aware you are there.

I suppose a size penalty is one way. I was thinking it would be a "unbelievable lie" (+20 to DC) since such a bluff would be rather hard to believe if the whole castle moves 5ft closer.

It'd be difficult for the castle to communicate it though, bluff is language dependent. Or at least as per PFSRD


Bluff is an opposed skill check against your opponent's Sense Motive skill. If you use Bluff to fool someone, with a successful check you convince your opponent that what you are saying is true. Bluff checks are modified depending upon the believability of the lie. The following modifiers are applied to the roll of the creature attempting to tell the lie. Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion).

Emphasis mine, without any direct ability to communicate it would be very difficult to use a bluff, maybe some kind of illusion or mind-affecting power would be a better choice. Or you could give the castle an aura of Illusion magic, and then have it talk, it'd be like a double bluff, people would believe that the moving castle was the illusion, rather than the truth, that the castle moving wasn't the illusion. That'd be how I'd go about it.

[avr]

Without verbal interaction or body language available to the castle, using bluff would be a hard sell to me if I was the DM.

Now, if you were to add some sort of chameleon ability a stealth castle would be amusing if still really difficult to pull off. Or if you could add some sort of extradimensional space to a smaller construct you could maybe call it your TARDIS...

[AMFV]

Without verbal interaction or body language available to the castle, using bluff would be a hard sell to me if I was the DM.

Now, if you were to add some sort of chameleon ability a stealth castle would be amusing if still really difficult to pull off. Or if you could add some sort of extradimensional space to a smaller construct you could maybe call it your TARDIS...

That's why the double bluff is such a good idea, people are going to assume a talking castle is an illusion. Which will hide the truth!

[Baroncognito]

Is there anyway to get the castle levels of Shadow Dancer to get Hide in Plain sight?

[Ravens_cry]

Is there anyway to get the castle levels of Shadow Dancer to get Hide in Plain sight?
In a castle's case, it's more a SEP field*.
*Somebody Else's Problem field

I know there's no rule for it. Just seems like Bluff would be the skill to make people think you hadn't moved closer, which is distinctly different from them not being aware you are there.

I suppose a size penalty is one way. I was thinking it would be a "unbelievable lie" (+20 to DC) since such a bluff would be rather hard to believe if the whole castle moves 5ft closer.
I'd say both. It's not only unbelievable, it's also a big object trying to move unobtrusively.

[AMFV]

Not to continue to push my own rather easy plan, but the thing that is the most awesome about that double bluff method is that you don't even have to give it the ranks.

The castle just needs an aura of illusion (or enchantment [or both]) then it sneaks up on people, if it's spotted. It explains to them that it's a magical moving castle, and that they should probably pay it no heed. People are more likely to suspect some kind of illusions or enchantments than the truth, it's a magical moving castle. Sometimes the best lie is the truth.

[Benthesquid]

Note that some lies are so improbable that it is impossible to convince anyone that they are true (subject to GM discretion).


Just saying.

Clearly the solution is to have a massive banner with "Forget about the castle and go about your business," in Illusory Script (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/illusory-script) flying from each turret.

[AMFV]

Just saying.

Clearly the solution is to have a massive banner with "Forget about the castle and go about your business," in Illusory Script (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/illusory-script) flying from each turret.

Exactly! The dread double-bluff!

[Drachasor]

It'd be difficult for the castle to communicate it though, bluff is language dependent. Or at least as per PFSRD

...

Emphasis mine, without any direct ability to communicate it would be very difficult to use a bluff, maybe some kind of illusion or mind-affecting power would be a better choice. Or you could give the castle an aura of Illusion magic, and then have it talk, it'd be like a double bluff, people would believe that the moving castle was the illusion, rather than the truth, that the castle moving wasn't the illusion. That'd be how I'd go about it.

Double bluff is clever, especially since you can add more layers onto it. Dump enough layers of illusion on something and no one will be sure what is happening without true seeing.

Regarding Bluff requiring language...not so sure that's how most groups would run it. I mean, are we saying there's no way to mislead or trick someone without knowing the same language? Seems like Bluff should cover tricking someone without words.

I mean, let's say this was people. You had a hostage situation and you wanted to move in closer to someone while keeping them too distracted to notice. That seems like Bluff. Or maybe you just wanted to use body language and carefully move so they just wouldn't realize you were getting closer until it was too late. It's not that they don't see you, but they just don't notice the moving closer bit.

Maybe the best way to handle it in-game is with Bluff to Distract combined with a Stealth check though.

I mean, as far as the Castle moving without getting noticed...that itself isn't too hard. It's just one creature, so you can cast Invisibility on it. I just think the castle "sneaking" up on people would be funny.


In a castle's case, it's more a SEP field*.
*Somebody Else's Problem field

Hmm, not sure how to do a perception filter like that in PF.


I'd say both. It's not only unbelievable, it's also a big object trying to move unobtrusively.

Hmm, on the other hand, it is SO unbelievable that one might argue it is more believable the Castle didn't move! But good point.


Is there anyway to get the castle levels of Shadow Dancer to get Hide in Plain sight?

Well, there's Magic Jar or similar magic. Actually, PF has a spell that let's the caster put himself into an object which works like Magic Jar but animates the object. Can't cast spells, but you get the Animated Object stats. Theoretically you could target this on a castle (no size limit). So there are a few ways to stuff a Shadow Dancer into a castle.


Not to continue to push my own rather easy plan, but the thing that is the most awesome about that double bluff method is that you don't even have to give it the ranks.

The castle just needs an aura of illusion (or enchantment [or both]) then it sneaks up on people, if it's spotted. It explains to them that it's a magical moving castle, and that they should probably pay it no heed. People are more likely to suspect some kind of illusions or enchantments than the truth, it's a magical moving castle. Sometimes the best lie is the truth.

It should probably combine this a some half-coherent backstory about how it wants to grow up to be a tailor or chef or something.

Though, getting a talking, sentient Castle in PF is a bit trickier.

[Greenish]

In a castle's case, it's more a SEP field.There's a spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/aura-of-the-unremarkable) for that.TM

[Drachasor]

There's a spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/aura-of-the-unremarkable) for that.TM

Hmm. 30 ft radius is a little hard to use for a Castle though.

Nice find though.

[Somensjev]

Hmm. 30 ft radius is a little hard to use for a Castle though.

Nice find though.

make an animated castle built out of animated bricks, then give each brick that spell? (not even sure if that'd work)

[Brookshw]

Just stopping in to say the idea of an animated castle sneaking around gave me a good chuckle, thanks you! :smallbiggrin:

[SowZ]

It'd be both, IMO. If it failed the stealth check, it's not that the npc notices it has moved. It's that they caught it in the act of moving. It can no more lie its way out of that then it could convince the npc he is actually a woman named Hildebrant and Drizzt is his mother.

If it succeeded the stealth, then the npc would still notice that it moved, (though didn't catch it in the act,) and may be able to be convinced with an absurd bluff check.

[Arc_knight25]

I think there is a wonderous item from 1st ed. It was a tower with giant chicken legs. On the inside it was a huge castle (Dimensional pocket of some sort) Had a garden, tonnes of room. Was link telepathicly to the owner.

We had alot of fun with that tower. We picked up some Kobalds and gave them acouple of rooms inside it.

[Shining Wrath]

Your bluff check ought to get a bonus based on the fact that no one expects a castle to be moving, so it's a believable lie that it didn't move.

Can a castle Move Silently? What is the dexterity of a typical castle?

Can you put magic items on your castle to give it bonuses to Bluff or Move Silently?

[Zubrowka74]

I think there is a wonderous item from 1st ed. It was a tower with giant chicken legs. On the inside it was a huge castle (Dimensional pocket of some sort) Had a garden, tonnes of room. Was link telepathicly to the owner.

We had alot of fun with that tower. We picked up some Kobalds and gave them acouple of rooms inside it.

Your thinking Baba Yaga's Hut. It was an artifact, actually.

[BWR]

Grab that spell and Permanency it on the entire castle. Should only cost you about twice as much as the castle.

Bluff can be used to feint in combat. If the castle has a high enough score it can make a feint to fool you into thinking it was totally going in the other direction.

[Keneth]

It's a normal Stealth check, and it's basically impossible because the castle can't really have cover or concealment unless it's hiding behind a mountain or in a cloud. Not to mention that animated objects are mindless, and thus have no skill points or feats.

As far as the price goes, it's gonna cost a lot more than 30k unless you want the thing to be destroyed with a few swings of an adamantine sword. The cost of a small castle is actually negligible (~7-8k via downtime or twice that if the capital is straight up bought with gold) compared to the cost of animating it as an effective creature.

[unseenmage]

It's a normal Stealth check, and it's basically impossible because the castle can't really have cover or concealment unless it's hiding behind a mountain or in a cloud. Not to mention that animated objects are mindless, and thus have no skill points or feats.

As far as the price goes, it's gonna cost a lot more than 30k unless you want the thing to be destroyed with a few swings of an adamantine sword. The cost of a small castle is actually negligible (~7-8k via downtime or twice that if the capital is straight up bought with gold) compared to the cost of animating it as an effective creature.

Possible solutions are the Minor Servitor spell from Savage Species (makes Int animated objects) and applying Shrink Item before animation so the Castle can be turned into a sheetlike shrunken form that is more able to have concealment. (Not to mention PF has rules for just making Constructs Intelligent no matter their kind.)

There is also a weapon enhancement i think that creates a cloud of smoke around the creature that would be able to allow a very very big creature to have concealment.

[Mutazoia]

Soooooo.....this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McM0_YHDm5A)?

Or you could make it walk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxrTXU8n72g)

[Angelmaker]

Can I just say that this topic title had me laughing for a full minute? Hilarious! Thank you.:smallsmile::smallbiggrin:

[unseenmage]

I've always wanted to Shrink item a castle and use it as a flag for a ship at sea. Using the Command Word to crush boarders becomes your last resort.

[Ethereal Gears]

...what have I done?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/nightstalker

*quietly shuffles out of the thread*

EDIT: Or do they get feats? I'm not too well-read up on construct creation. Otherwise kindly ignore this. :P

[Drachasor]

I'm glad people are enjoying the concept. :)


...what have I done?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/nightstalker

*quietly shuffles out of the thread*

EDIT: Or do they get feats? I'm not too well-read up on construct creation. Otherwise kindly ignore this. :P

You'd need a way to give it intelligence (Awaken Construct from 3.5 or some sort of homebrew). Or have someone Magic Jar on it who has the Nightstalker feat. Or use Possess Object on a normal castle. So it is doable.