Optibarbarization

[D4rkh0rus]

Dat Title.... ehrm.

Anyways, I've always wanted to play something along lines of a "big stupid fighter"... I would act it out as none of my characters ever have an Int score below 14 (What? I like my skills...)

I've chosen Barbarian, I like the feel of the class (uhmm.. yea... right...... True reason -> Trapkilling and a quote about how a barbarian's chest muscles can block anything from stones to death rays)

Problem is, I dont really understand the Power attack shenanigans... as a matter of fact, the only feat I really even understand is shocktrooper. (I dont even understand Power attack, I mean understand the premise trade to-hit for dmg, but I don't understand when to use it. (How do I know how many points to spend, etc... until I get shocktrooper... and then again, is it worth basically losing all your AC to bash in a head?

Anyways, Anyone mind clarifying the power attack tree? what feats should I take, which ones should I not bother with? Any decent reccomendations on a 2 handed weapon?


It would be a Raptoran Barbarian, taking 1 lvl of ranger at first for skills and track, and probably 1 or 2 lvls of fighter.

(I just find the idea of a raptoran charging in wildly screaming a bit too good to pass up... and jump aparently sinergizes well with leap attack)


Also, Are there any methods of raising move speed? (I plan on trading fast movement for pounce)

Lastly, Any prestige class/other dips you guys recommend? (I am not a fan of ToB classes, feats/other stuff is a-ok though.

PS: Does leap attack and raptoran's dive stack?

[AMFV]

Dat Title.... ehrm.

Anyways, I've always wanted to play something along lines of a "big stupid fighter"... I would act it out as none of my characters ever have an Int score below 14 (What? I like my skills...)

I've chosen Barbarian, I like the feel of the class (uhmm.. yea... right...... True reason -> Trapkilling and a quote about how a barbarian's chest muscles can block anything from stones to death rays)

Problem is, I dont really understand the Power attack shenanigans... as a matter of fact, the only feat I really even understand is shocktrooper. (I dont even understand Power attack, I mean understand the premise trade to-hit for dmg, but I don't understand when to use it. (How do I know how many points to spend, etc... until I get shocktrooper... and then again, is it worth basically losing all your AC to bash in a head?

Anyways, Anyone mind clarifying the power attack tree? what feats should I take, which ones should I not bother with? Any decent reccomendations on a 2 handed weapon?


It would be a Raptoran Barbarian, taking 1 lvl of ranger at first for skills and track, and probably 1 or 2 lvls of fighter.

(I just find the idea of a raptoran charging in wildly screaming a bit too good to pass up... and jump aparently sinergizes well with leap attack)


Also, Are there any methods of raising move speed? (I plan on trading fast movement for pounce)

Lastly, Any prestige class/other dips you guys recommend? (I am not a fan of ToB classes, feats/other stuff is a-ok though.

PS: Does leap attack and raptoran's dive stack?

Bear Warrior could be hilarious. Deepwarden is pretty good if you take the few levels of stoneblessed. I think Con to AC is still coming out ahead. Fist of the Forest definitely fits the feel you're going for.

As far as raising move speed. Air Heritage is probably your best bet. It's +30 to fly speed, which you could take at 6 HD, then you'd have the ability to fly much better than you otherwise might be.

[Waker]

I think Stormtalon is decent for a PrC. Good HD, BAB and it boosts your speed.

[AMFV]

Don't forget the Half-Minotaur template, that would definitely be a nice boost for your character, bigger size, able to carry more stuff while flying, massive damage on a flying charge.

[Kaje]

If you're only going to ever take one level of ranger, use the Wild Shape variant from UA instead. It gains fast movement at level one but doesn't lose anything until level two.

[D4rkh0rus]

oh yea, the ua variants, thanks.

How would 1 ranger 2 fighter 17 barbarian (or 1 ranger, 1 fighter, 18 barbarian) look like? (none of the PRCs call out as interesting to me... hmmm)

[PurpleSocks]

I'm a big believer that the barbarian class is 2 levels long and that you should almost always take Pounce, Whirling Frenzy, and maybe even Wolf Totem or the SS variant for a bonus feat instead of uncanny dodge.

But seriously prestige out early and do not take 17 levels of barbarian.

[D4rkh0rus]

But why? Whats the reason barbarian 17 sucks?

Ill be getting stuff like streetfighter.

[Waker]

But why? Whats the reason barbarian 17 sucks?

Ill be getting stuff like streetfighter.

Despite the full section on special abilities, many of the listed attributes for a Barbarian are rather lackluster. Trapsense is so situational as to be useless, the DR is too little, too late, Greater/Mighty Rage comes so late and Tireless Rage is pointless since by then you'll have plenty of ways to negate fatigue.
Generally you want to find a PrC or other class that provides abilities that are specifically geared towards what you want to accomplish.
Ah yes, in addition to the Stormtalon I mentioned earlier, Aerial Avenger from Dragon Compendium is somewhat decent for a flyer as well, though it does lack full BAB.

[Oxydeur]

Ok let's talk about the Power Attack feat. It's basically a barbarian must have ! It's almost a class feature seeing how it synergize with the beast.

With barbarian you will get an insane to-hit bonus. Thanks to your full BAB, your high strenght, your rage, your equipment, your feats, etc... To a point that your to-hit bonus will get TOO high. So, better use it for something else (you will hit them anyway).

You can trade 1 to-hit bonus for 2 dmg (assuming you use a two-handed weapon, wich is obligatory). When to use it ?
1) if you a get bonus to attack check (charging/diving/flanking/friendly prayer/bard cohort/higher ground/mounted) you can invest the same amount in power attack for free bonus damage. And it will be easier for you to calculate your to-hit bonus : just read your character sheet and add 2 to your damage instead of each to-hit bonus.
2) After the first round of melee fight, you can guess your adversaries's AC. Adjust your bonus in consequence, i personnally try to keep it so i can hit with a 7-8 on the dice, it's just free damage against low AC ennemies (who said "wizard" ?).

Now, Why Shock Trooper ?
Read the third maneuver closely. It allows you to decreased your AC INSTEAD of your to hit bonus ! So you will high to-hit AND high damage !
Yes, it will lower your AC, but with rage and charge you already give up 4 AC. AC is the barbarian dump stat, if you kill them quickly (let's say with a Pounced Charging/Diving Powered Shock-Troopered full attack) they will not be able to harm you anyway.

To resume : for a barbarian damage>to-hit>AC. The Power Attack-Shock Trooper combination is perfect for that.


Lastly, Any prestige class/other dips you guys recommend? (I am not a fan of ToB classes, feats/other stuff is a-ok though.
As Waker said, Stormtalon is perfect for you : 1 (or 2? is it a two-feeted attack or two feet attacks?) free attack wich benefit from your Power Attack and Shock Trooper feats, full BAB, free feats for a flyer/diver, fast fly...
Perfect addition for a Raptorian Barbarian.


PS: Does leap attack and raptoran's dive stack?
I'm not sure by RAW (and i will say a big NO as a DM i think). By RAI, i think Leap Attack is intended to replicate a dive attack, and jumping imply standing on the ground, so will say no.
BTW dive is better because you double your weapon damage AND your Power attack damage AND all other non-diced bonus damage you get (while leap attack just double Power Attack damage). Just grab your favorite two-handed piercing weapon (halberd and scythe sounds good) and start pin wandering goblins on the ground.

[D4rkh0rus]

Despite the full section on special abilities, many of the listed attributes for a Barbarian are rather lackluster. Trapsense is so situational as to be useless, the DR is too little, too late, Greater/Mighty Rage comes so late and Tireless Rage is pointless since by then you'll have plenty of ways to negate fatigue.
Generally you want to find a PrC or other class that provides abilities that are specifically geared towards what you want to accomplish.
Ah yes, in addition to the Stormtalon I mentioned earlier, Aerial Avenger from Dragon Compendium is somewhat decent for a flyer as well, though it does lack full BAB.

I see, are there any classes that synergize with barbarian, and have similar skill points/skills (I want survival as a class skill mainly).

I'm not sold on the bear warrior. I find it a bit strange, also from what I read its 3 natural attacks, which means ill have to take multi attack and other random stuff... and I wont get double dmg from my power attack...
Also im a bit feat starved...

(I was thinking this:
Lv 1 (2 flaws) Extra rage, Power attack, Improved Bull Rush
lv 3 (fighter level 1) Reckless rage, Combat reflexes
lvl 6 (fighter lvl 2) Leap attack, Shocktrooper
lvl 9 Instantaneous rage
Lvl 12 Robilar's gambit

15 and 18 idk yet, ill think of something on the fly. But the gist of the build is somewhat of a FF dragoon gameplay, with robilar's gambit to effectively kill enemies before they kill me... its probable that Ill also put that feat that lets u move 5ft instead of an AoO at lvl 15.

While I agree that 17 lvls of barbarian ends up being lackluster, Considering that the main stuff comes from what.. 5 lvls in barbarian (or 3/4 in my case, i want the trapsense to trade for trap killing), the rest is ok but kinda meh... I guess lvl 11 for +2 str/con...
I just don't know what to spend the other levels on. Id prefer it to be a prestige class.


also, Is there any way to make a Dive attack in every round? (Provided the enemies are sufficiently apart, but all are grounded.


Also, in the case there are 2 or 3 enemies clustered, is there any way to charge them all? (like round 1, charge and kill, then round 2 somehow get in distance and charge a second one, then repeat)

[GreenETC]

If you're looking to optimize a Barbarian to do Power Attack and you also want Trapkiller, then you should go for Wildshape Ranger 1/Hit and Run Fighter 2/Trapkiller Spirit Lion Barbarian 3/Frenzied Berserker 5. I'd say that's pretty close to being what you need, though it is feat heavy, which makes it harder to get Shock Trooper.

1. Power Attack
F. Improved Bull Rush
F. Cleave
3. Intimidating Rage
6. Destructive Rage
9. Shock Trooper
As for your questions about Power Attack and everything:
1. No, you can't combine Leap Attack and Dive attacks, because Diving is a Flying charge, and you can't jump while flying.
2.Power Attack Calculators (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) are what tells you how much to PA for, based on what your to-hit is and what the foe's AC is guessed to be based on previous hits or misses.
3. The Power Attack tree is basically fine with the Shock Trooper requirements, anything other than that is just preference.

[AMFV]

As for your questions about Power Attack and everything:
1. No, you can't combine Leap Attack and Dive attacks, because Diving is a Flying charge, and you can't jump while flying.
2.Power Attack Calculators (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) are what tells you how much to PA for, based on what your to-hit is and what the foe's AC is guessed to be based on previous hits or misses.
3. The Power Attack tree is basically fine with the Shock Trooper requirements, anything other than that is just preference.

Actually the rules don't prohibit jumping while flying... The "running start" bit only requires you to move 20' in a straight line. There's no actual prohibition against combining jumping and flying as nonsensical as it is.

[Red Fel]

Seconding Streetfighter from this web supplement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Yes, you lose DR, but you gain some serious charging optimization - and it sounds like you're trying for precisely that.

I would also look into other possible ACF choices. For example, if you want to lose trapsense, you could swap it for Spell Sense from Complete Mage. Or, if Raptorans are non-humanoid (I don't remember if they count as humanoid or monstrous humanoid), you could take some of the Fangshields Barbarian ACFs, which give you more movement while charging in exchange for trapsense, the ability to make a charge as if using Awesome Blow in exchange for Uncanny Dodge, or the ability to spend a Rage usage to heal damage in exchange for one point of DR.

Additionally, with regard to the PA tree, if you're thinking of going Exalted, I have a fondness for Resounding Blow (when you crit, evil enemies must save or cower) and Quell the Profane (when you crit, evil enemies must save or take Strength damage). I remind you that the Streetfighting ACF also increases your crit range, and stacks with Improved Crit/Keen, so it's not hard to become a crit-frenzying chargemaster of evil-smashing death.

[Waker]

I would say that with the Raptoran's Diving Charge, you don't really need to spend the feat on Leap Attack. I would also echo PurpleSocks suggestion about Whirling Frenzy, as getting extra attacks and higher strength is quite nice, along with the boost to AC and Reflex.

[GreenETC]

But the gist of the build is somewhat of a FF dragoon gameplay, with robilar's gambit to effectively kill enemies before they kill me... its probable that Ill also put that feat that lets u move 5ft instead of an AoO at lvl 15.
The main way to play a Shock Trooper is not to try and survive the crackback. A charger plans to kill whatever is going to be there to hit him in one shot, so you usually don't charge into a group of enemies to get smacked around on their turns.

Also, in the case there are 2 or 3 enemies clustered, is there any way to charge them all? (like round 1, charge and kill, then round 2 somehow get in distance and charge a second one, then repeat)
There is an item in the MIC, Boots of the Battle Charger, which let you make charges as a standard action and ignore allies and difficult terrain, which would let you move action out and standard pounce back in.

On jumping while flying: I am not surprised that RAW is stupid, as always. That's what I get for assuming the rules make sense. ._.

[D4rkh0rus]

Regarding ACFs

trapsense is already taken, for trapkilling. just the thought is enough to take it. even if I dont use it in the entire campaign.

If I end up taking 17 barbarian, or similar, I will take streetfighter, The charge stuff is nice, now to find a way to charge every turn... lol.



I would say that with the Raptoran's Diving Charge, you don't really need to spend the feat on Leap Attack. I would also echo PurpleSocks suggestion about Whirling Frenzy, as getting extra attacks and higher strength is quite nice, along with the boost to AC and Reflex.

Im not sure, but with boots of the battle charger I would be able to do the same yes. flying away still counts as a move action right?

Whirling frenzy, I find it to be kinda meh. Specially cuz I dont think I can use Extra rage/reckless rage/instant rage on it.

[AMFV]

On jumping while flying: I am not surprised that RAW is stupid, as always. That's what I get for assuming the rules make sense. ._.

It does give a new meaning to "flying leap" though. And rim shot.

[GreenETC]

I would really recommend taking a prestige class. Barbarian is one of the most frontloaded classes in the game, and there's a ton of beautiful prestige classes out there. You don't even need to think inside the box and only pick Barbarian PrCs, because you don't even NEED anything for class features outside of full BaB, so grab anything you can get into or want.

Some good PrCs would be: Frenzied Berserker (gives MORE power attack at a high price), Runescarred Berserker (gives spells and rage), Exotic Weapon Master (get a 1h exotic weapon and Uncanny Blow)

[D4rkh0rus]

Well... Strictly by raw, and assuming the GM is a newbie/Braindead/Doesn't care/Throws 5 or 6 tarrasques per encounter...


Dive attack only requires you to charge for 30 feet horizontal, 10 feet vertical.
So, Strictly speaking... Assuming normal charge is 60 feet...

I could Move 30ft, descend 10-20 ft, and the propulsion from the dive should be enough for it to count as a "running start" and even if it doesnt, its only a DC 20 (+10 from raptoran, +8 ranks for Leap attack, +str... yea)


I complete both criteria, thus get bot modifiers, and look totally awesome while doing so.

Im not one to break stuff like that, but its just a cookie for though.

[dantiesilva]

I have used Reckless rage to great success in many of my barbarian builds. With it my Barbarian gets his strength and con into the 40 range, easy as all hell to hit, but when you have over 400hp at level 10 its worth it most days. 150 of that being just from your con score with no items. Sadly you do not have access to Ettencap berserker as it is one of the feats I use for this, however Bear warrior and Berserker are keys to this build I use. Berserker is not in your allowed sources, though Frenzied berserker is.

[HC Rainbow]

It may just be me, But I've always had a soft spot for the frenzied berserker, The IMMENSE strength increase that stacks with rage, the QUADRUPLE power attack, the 5 foot step mid-cleave, all of those things just makes me think of a drunk dude with a giant axe just hacking and sloshing dudes to pieces.

I, Love, Frenzied Berserker.
Hate the feat requirements.

[Andezzar]

On jumping while flying: I am not surprised that RAW is stupid, as always. That's what I get for assuming the rules make sense. ._.Jumping while flying does not work per standard English since jumping is not defined in the rules. To jump you need to push yourself off a solid surface. You cannot do that while flying.

@Freenzied Berserker: Be careful. Unless you have a way to end your frenzy reliably, you are as dangerous to your team mates as to the enemies.

[AMFV]

Jumping while flying does not work per standard English since jumping is not defined in the rules. To jump you need to push yourself off a solid surface. You cannot do that while flying.

@Freenzied Berserker: Be careful. Unless you have a way to end your frenzy reliably, you are as dangerous to your team mates as to the enemies.


to spring into the air : leap; especially : to spring free from the ground or other base by the muscular action of feet and legs

It should be fine since the especially is a modifier and not part of the official definition.


push oneself off a surface and into the air by using the muscles in one’s legs and feet

That specifies surface, but not what it is, clouds, the air, those all can qualify as surfaces. As a surface is...


the outside part or uppermost layer of something (often used when describing its texture, form, or extent):

That includes solids, your own body, particularly your own body in this case. So even if you use the more stringent definition it still works, based on the definition of surface, since your skin and feet are surfaces.

[Andezzar]

That specifies surface, but not what it is, clouds, the air, those all can qualify as surfaces. As a surface is...Clouds I can see, but where is the surface of the air. While flying you are in the middle of the air not on its surface. More importantly, where is the pushing motion against the surface




That includes solids, your own body, particularly your own body in this case. So even if you use the more stringent definition it still works, based on the definition of surface, since your skin and feet are surfaces.If the jump would separate you from your skin, I would agree.

[AMFV]

Clouds I can see, but where is the surface of the air. While flying you are in the middle of the air not on its surface. More importantly, where is the pushing motion against the surface



If the jump would separate you from your skin, I would agree.

:smallfrown: You could also carry socks and jump away from them. :smalltongue: That'd work, I don't think there's that much of a problem in letting them stack in a game involving uberchargers, it's thematic and cool.

Also not all English definitions agree with you, so it'd really depend on which dictionary definition you were to utilize.

[Sgt. Cookie]

*Strokes beard*

So, exactly how optimised do you want your Barbarian to be? I ask because Barbarian is probably the only class that can give you flat out immunity to all but two sources of lethal damage. And one of those is debatable.

If you do want to be that optimised, check the spoiler:

So, first things first. You are going to need access to the following books: Savage Species, Monster Manual 3, Sandstorm, Frostburn and Complete Adventurer.

Now, in Savage Species, there is a Template called Symbiote. This Template allows you to combine two creatures into one. Now, what we are going to use it in conjunction with the Dread Blossom Swarm from the Monster Manual 3. This gives you far too many bonuses to list here, so here's a link to them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259833).

After that, you are going to need the feats Frozen Beserker and Blazing Beserker, from Frostburn and Sandstorm respectively. You also want Extra Rage from CA. Which, by the way, your flowery companion can pick up for you.

Now, what this all means is that you gain Regeneration 5 Fire/Cold, but, during a Rage, that Fire/Cold weakness goes away, meaning that you only take Non-Lethal damage from all but two sources, which you then gets healed by 5 points per round.

Those two sources I mentioned? They are: Trollbane and Searing Spell.

Trollbane, that's not up for debate, but it's only good for one attack.

Searing Spell, on the other hand, is. You see, it's a Metamagic spell from Sandstorm that allows you to bypass Fire resistance and immunity.

Now, Frosburn has a similar feat for Cold resistance/immunity, but that one explicitly doesn't affect Cold Subtype creatures. Searing Spell doesn't have that clause, but there is a very good argument that it should.

I hope you enjoy.


If you do open the spoiler or not, I would suggest that you check out the Donjon PA calculator. (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/) It takes a lot of the trouble out of PAing.

[D4rkh0rus]

I'd Like my barbarian optimized. But I would not like him to be half alien/half dragon/half this half that... Just plain old Raptoran. Anything else goes.

[Eldariel]

I saw a Barbarian guide here somewhere. I seem to have misplaced it tho. Anyone?

[pwykersotz]

I saw a Barbarian guide here somewhere. I seem to have misplaced it tho. Anyone?

Yeah, it was somewhere...some guy wrote this guide once that was pretty okay. :tongue:

[D4rkh0rus]

I saw a Barbarian guide here somewhere. I seem to have misplaced it tho. Anyone?

It was right under your nose! I read it already, twas pretty nice.

[HC Rainbow]

Is this what you're all looking for? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525)

Its probably my favorite guide out of any guide...

[D4rkh0rus]

Yea I liked it too :P

[D4rkh0rus]

Well, I ended with something around these lines...

Barb 3/Fighter 2/Stormtalon 7 so it goes to lvl 12. Problem now is what follows it.

that or Barb 2/fighter 2/ranger 1 (wildshape variant)/stormtalon 7

My DM imposes the Multiclass exp penalty, so I need to choose a Prestige class, but Which one? Is there any prestige class thats good for a charge build/melee build that doesn't require feats? (All of mine are already being used Dragoon chain is feat intensive. at most I can spare 1)

[D4rkh0rus]

after searching for a bit I found black blood cultist. It looks interesting, it also completes my attacks (if have 2 claw attack which I would use, in favour of a 2h weapon, 2 feet natural attacks and a bite attack.)

But BBC only looks useful till like lvl 4 (scent) or 5 (stranglehold)

So far, the build would go like this...

Barb 2/ Fighter 2/ ranger 1/Stormtalon 7/Black blood cultist 5

at lvl 15 I would have all my limbs capable of doing natural attacks... but I would use my hands for a 2h for power attack shenanigans (whee)

Can I full attack with my 2 feet (stormtalon), 2 claws and bite (BBC) and my normal attacks (4, considering 16+ BaB) for 9 attacks in a full attack?

Or is it 2 feet, 1 bite and 4 BaB attacks?



What three levels of prestige classes without any feat requirements could I use to finish this build?


Also, is taking leap attack in a dive build worth the feat? (for the case in which I find myself unable to fly... namely low ceilings)

[Andezzar]

Can I full attack with my 2 feet (stormtalon), 2 claws and bite (BBC) and my normal attacks (4, considering 16+ BaB) for 9 attacks in a full attack?

Or is it 2 feet, 1 bite and 4 BaB attacks?You can't use the claws that are gripping the weapon.

While the 2 for 1 exchange of power attacking with a two-handed weapon is nice, you probably won't need it with 5 natural attacks and 4 unarmed strikes. dealing 5 gazillion points of damage is no better than dealing 10 more damage than the target's HP. Dead is dead.

You may want to look at (improved) multi-attack and/or versatile unarmed strike. With those feats you get 6 attacks at your highest AB and the damage of all of them gets doubled on a dive attack. Also the doubling applies to all of the damage: damage dice, attribute bonus, enhancement bonus other fixed bonuses and power attack, not just power attack as with leap attack.


Also, is taking leap attack in a dive build worth the feat? (for the case in which I find myself unable to fly... namely low ceilings)That very much depends on the DM. How often will you be adventuring in areas with low ceilings.This can go from no need for leap attack to what were you thinking when you tired to optimize the dive attack?

I would start with the ranger level for 8 more skill points.

[D4rkh0rus]

You can't use the claws that are gripping the weapon.

While the 2 for 1 exchange of power attacking with a two-handed weapon is nice, you probably won't need it with 5 natural attacks and 4 unarmed strikes. dealing 5 gazillion points of damage is no better than dealing 10 more damage than the target's HP. Dead is dead.

You may want to look at (improved) multi-attack and/or versatile unarmed strike. With those feats you get 6 attacks at your highest AB and the damage of all of them gets doubled on a dive attack. Also the doubling applies to all of the damage: damage dice, attribute bonus, enhancement bonus other fixed bonuses and power attack, not just power attack as with leap attack.

But dont natural attacks counts as mundane weapons? (no ghost touch/hardness bypass/etc) Is there a way to fix that? (I heard of an amulet, but i forget).
I was thinking of a scythe wielding dive attacker. Coolness factor > All




That very much depends on the DM. How often will you be adventuring in areas with low ceilings.This can go from no need for leap attack to what were you thinking when you tired to optimize the dive attack?

I would start with the ranger level for 8 more skill points.

I have no idea, but from what we've been doing so far, combat has been in open spaces. and it looks like it'l stay that way...

also, Dive attack only works with piercing weapons, so If I'm gonna use bludgeoning/slashing ones, leap attack is something to look at.


On the ranger's behalf, sure I get 8 more skill points... not like I can get any skill over 4 at lvl 1,... I guess if I used skill retraining shenanigans... ehrmsh. Sure why not...

[Andezzar]

But dont natural attacks counts as mundane weapons? (no ghost touch/hardness bypass/etc) Is there a way to fix that? (I heard of an amulet, but i forget).Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a), Wyrmfang Amulet and possibly others let the natural attacks count as magic. The former has the added advantage of being able to add all the nifty special abilities to your natural weapons. Throwing and returning are even explicitly mentioned in the item's description. :smallwink:


I was thinking of a scythe wielding dive attacker. Coolness factor > AllA whirlwind of fangs claws, elbows and knees is not that uncool either. But if you want a scythe wielder that is settled.


also, Dive attack only works with piercing weapons, so If I'm gonna use bludgeoning/slashing ones, leap attack is something to look at.Versatile Unarmed Strike allows you to change the Unarmed Strike's damage to slashing or piercing. Bites deal piercing, slashing and bludgeoning damage, claws and talons deal piercing and slashing damage. So all your natural weapons are piercing weapons.

Another great thing about Natural attacks: The maximum penalty you get on them is -5, not -5, -10, -15.

Some things I noticed about your build:

You can't take Shock Trooper as a Fighter bonus feat if the Fighter level is taken before level 6. Shock Trooper requires a BAB of 6.

To take Black Blood Cultist at level 13, you must take Improved Unarmed Strike before that.

I would not bother with Instantaneous Rage. Recklessly Raging outside your turn is not that great. Yes, you get +6 CON, but you also get - 4 AC when the enemy attacks.

I'm not sure what benefit you get from Robilar's Gambit on your build. Your AC will be low very often (reckless rage, shock trooper). So you might not be able to retaliate that often, if the attacker's deal enough damage to drop you. Also your retaliatory attacks are AoOs, you only get a few of those. Combat Reflexes is not that great without reach.

If possible, take Improved Flight and buy a pectoral of maneuverability or let someone cast Wings of Air on you for perfect maneuverability. Add some form of extra movement and denying you your dive attack will be very difficult (except confined spaces).

[D4rkh0rus]

Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a), Wyrmfang Amulet and possibly others let the natural attacks count as magic. The former has the added advantage of being able to add all the nifty special abilities to your natural weapons. Throwing and returning are even explicitly mentioned in the item's description. :smallwink:

A whirlwind of fangs claws, elbows and knees is not that uncool either. But if you want a scythe wielder that is settled.

Versatile Unarmed Strike allows you to change the Unarmed Strike's damage to slashing or piercing. Bites deal piercing, slashing and bludgeoning damage, claws and talons deal piercing and slashing damage. So all your natural weapons are piercing weapons.

Another great thing about Natural attacks: The maximum penalty you get on them is -5, not -5, -10, -15.

First, Yea, I was thinking of a whirlwind of fangs, claws (feet) and a scythe just thrown in for good measure lol.

Does versatile Unarmed Strike apply to my natural weapons? if so then sold, screw the scythe X D.

Also, how would throwing/returning claws/kicks/bites work. I am intrigued.


Some things I noticed about your build:

You can't take Shock Trooper as a Fighter bonus feat if the Fighter level is taken before level 6. Shock Trooper requires a BAB of 6.

To take Black Blood Cultist at level 13, you must take Improved Unarmed Strike before that.

I would not bother with Instantaneous Rage. Recklessly Raging outside your turn is not that great. Yes, you get +6 CON, but you also get - 4 AC when the enemy attacks.

I'm not sure what benefit you get from Robilar's Gambit on your build. Your AC will be low very often (reckless rage, shock trooper). So you might not be able to retaliate that often, if the attacker's deal enough damage to drop you. Also your retaliatory attacks are AoOs, you only get a few of those. Combat Reflexes is not that great without reach.

If possible, take Improved Flight and buy a pectoral of maneuverability or let someone cast Wings of Air on you for perfect maneuverability. Add some form of extra movement and denying you your dive attack will be very difficult (except confined spaces).

I'm taking Shocktrooper at lvl 6 and probably ditching leap attack for the Versatile unarmed strike // Improved unarmed strike

Does reckless rage work for whirling frenzy?

Robilar's gambit is just because of that. My Ac will be so low, ill pretty much be auto hit. So might as well rape him before he rapes me. I was thinking of getting evasive reflexes at lvl 15, so I could step back 5ft every time some1 attacks me, nulling a full attack.


Flight stuff is taken care, 7 lvls in stormtalon = 3 bonus feats from their list (Multiattack and Improved flight x2, I find all the others kinda meh... maybe flyby attack...)

[Andezzar]

Does versatile Unarmed Strike apply to my natural weapons? if so then sold, screw the scythe X D.No, but your bite already deals all three types and the claws and talons deal piercing and slashing.


Also, how would throwing/returning claws/kicks/bites work. I am intrigued.It's magic. Honestly I have no idea and find the combination pretty ridiculous. It is effective though.


Does reckless rage work for whirling frenzy? No, Reckless Rage requires Rage, not Whirling Frenzy.


Robilar's gambit is just because of that. My Ac will be so low, ill pretty much be auto hit. So might as well rape him before he rapes me.You may want to reread Robilar's Gambit:
Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack.


I was thinking of getting evasive reflexes at lvl 15, so I could step back 5ft every time some1 attacks me, nulling a full attack.That's a lot of feats to solve a problem you created yourself.

Unless the attacker has taken a 5 ft step before he attacked, one 5 ft step won't get you out of Full Attack range. He could simply use his 5 ft step to catch up. By then you cannot use another 5 ft step because you are still subject to the normal rules for 5 ft steps:
you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distanceSo using it after the reckless charge is impossible as well.


Flight stuff is taken care, 7 lvls in stormtalon = 3 bonus feats from their list (Multiattack and Improved flight x2, I find all the others kinda meh... maybe flyby attack...)Feats don't stack with themselves unless the feat explicitly says so. No version of Improved Flight I know has such a rule.

Consider Ranger 1/Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Stormtalon 5/Black Blood Cultist 10 possibly in different order, that way you get all your natural attacks all day long, not just while raging. If you can live without the two Fighter Feats take Ranger 1/Barbarian 2/Stormtalon 7/Black Blood Cultist 10. Forget that last suggestion. You cannot qualify for either PrC by level 3

[D4rkh0rus]

No, but your bite already deals all three types and the claws and talons deal piercing and slashing.

So effectively I dont even need Versatile Unarmed strike, just improved unarmed strike...



No, Reckless Rage requires Rage, not Whirling Frenzy.

Ok rage it is.




You may want to reread Robilar's Gambit:

That's a lot of feats to solve a problem you created yourself.

Unless the attacker has taken a 5 ft step before he attacked, one 5 ft step won't get you out of Full Attack range. He could simply use his 5 ft step to catch up. By then you cannot use another 5 ft step because you are still subject to the normal rules for 5 ft steps:So using it after the reckless charge is impossible as well.

Evasive reflexes just says a 5 ft step whenever Id get an aoO, so first attack, it hits, dmg, i move back. he moves in, second attack, i move back. I only ate up 2 attacks. Or I could attack him as he attacks me, so either I take full dmg or he dies before he manages that.



Feats don't stack with themselves unless the feat explicitly says so. No version of Improved Flight I know has such a rule.

I did not know that. Hmmm I thought that since the feat specifies it makes your maneurability 1 step higher (clumsy -> poor, etc...)

It would just go like this. 1st Imp man. average -> good
2nd Imp man. good -> perf



also Id like to have stormtalon 7, that way I get my foot claw attacks even if I'm grounded.

[Andezzar]

So effectively I dont even need Versatile Unarmed strike, just improved unarmed strike...Without it your Unarmed Strike deals only bludgeoning damage, and thus cannot be used on a dive charge. With it you get 4 more attacks, which all deal double damage.
With Versatile Unarmed Strike and Multi-Attack your Full Attack looks like this:
-0 Unarmed Strike, -2 Claw, -2 Claw, -2 Bite, -2 Foot Claw, -2 Foot Claw, -5 Unarmed Strike, -10 Unarmed Strike, -15 Unarmed Strike

With Improved Multi-Attack the -2 for the natural attacks goes away.

Unfortunately all claws and the bite are considered secondary attacks in combination with the Unarmed strike and thus only deal 0.5*STR modifier damage, but STR probably is not your biggest damage dealer on the charge. Not using the Unarmed strike would only give the claws on the hand STR damage.


Evasive reflexes just says a 5 ft step whenever Id get an aoO, so first attack, it hits, dmg, i move back. he moves in, second attack, i move back. I only ate up 2 attacks. Or I could attack him as he attacks me, so either I take full dmg or he dies before he manages that.No.
A 5 ft step is a specific (non-)action with a couple of rules. Unless those rules are explicitly changed by the feat all of them still apply.
Here is what would happen:
You go into the Robilar's Gambit "stance" and do whatever else you want on your turn.
The enemy attacks you and provokes an AoO.
You take a 5 ft step.
The enemy takes a 5 ft step towards you (because you can take a 5 ft step during your other actions) and attacks, provoking another AoO.
You cannot take another 5 ft step because you cannot take a 5 ft step if you move any distance during the same round.

If on your turn you moved any distance, you couldn't even take the first 5 ft step after the attack.

This most likely is not RAI, so ask your DM if you can take a 5 ft step with Evasive Reflexes even if you already moved during that turn.


also Id like to have stormtalon 7, that way I get my foot claw attacks even if I'm grounded.Two Foot claws while grounded vs. two claws and one bite all day long. The latter is one more attack. Additionally you get rending with the claws.

[D4rkh0rus]

Without it your Unarmed Strike deals only bludgeoning damage, and thus cannot be used on a dive charge. With it you get 4 more attacks, which all deal double damage.
With Versatile Unarmed Strike and Multi-Attack your Full Attack looks like this:
-0 Unarmed Strike, -2 Claw, -2 Claw, -2 Bite, -2 Foot Claw, -2 Foot Claw, -5 Unarmed Strike, -10 Unarmed Strike, -15 Unarmed Strike

With Improved Multi-Attack the -2 for the natural attacks goes away.

Unfortunately all claws and the bite are considered secondary attacks in combination with the Unarmed strike and thus only deal 0.5*STR modifier damage, but STR probably is not your biggest damage dealer on the charge. Not using the Unarmed strike would only give the claws on the hand STR damage.

Wait I don't get it. you're saying that If I grab versatile unarmed strike, I can attack with my 4 base attacks, both my claw and talon attacks and my bite attack? If i added snap kick and whirling frenzy...

you're saying I would get 11 attacks? (4 from bab, 1 from snap kick, 1 from WF, 5 from natural assorted attacks)

Can someone clarify? cuz if i cant do unarmed attacks AND claw attacks at the same time, im better off getting a weapon, arent I? or is this because it'll be cheaper in the long run with the amulet of natural attacks?




Two Foot claws while grounded vs. two claws and one bite all day long. The latter is one more attack. Additionally you get rending with the claws.

also, id prefer permanent talon attacks, seeing as my rage, by the time i get BBC, would be about 9-10 rounds per use, with 3 (4 by the time i get bite) uses per day....

[Andezzar]

Wait I don't get it. you're saying that If I grab versatile unarmed strike, I can attack with my 4 base attacks, both my claw and talon attacks and my bite attack? If i added snap kick and whirling frenzy...Normally you don't need that, you can use Unarmed Strike and all your other natural attacks on a Full Attack, but the Diving Charge only works with piercing weapons. Versatile Unarmed strike makes your unarmed strike a piercing weapon. I assume you use the Spiritual Lion Totem ACF to get pounce. Now you can use a Full Attack on a Charge. A Diving Charge works like a Charge.


you're saying I would get 11 attacks? (4 from bab, 1 from snap kick, 1 from WF, 5 from natural assorted attacks)Yup. No Reckless rage with Whirling Frenzy though.


Can someone clarify? cuz if i cant do unarmed attacks AND claw attacks at the same time, im better off getting a weapon, arent I?You most certainly can use your Unarmed Strike with your other natural weapons. The other natural weapons then are all secondary though. The only possible problem is the Diving charge as outlined above.


or is this because it'll be cheaper in the long run with the amulet of natural attacks?Unless you want weapon special abilities with your natural weapons, an Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofMightyFists) will be cheaper. The problem with the Necklace of Natural Attacks is that you have to pay for each natural weapon that gets augmented. You have 6.

[D4rkh0rus]

Normally you don't need that, you can use Unarmed Strike and all your other natural attacks on a Full Attack, but the Diving Charge only works with piercing weapons. Versatile Unarmed strike makes your unarmed strike a piercing weapon. I assume you use the Spiritual Lion Totem ACF to get pounce. Now you can use a Full Attack on a Charge. A Diving Charge works like a Charge.

But, is it superior to just wielding a scythe/other piercing weapon in both claws?

I did some simple math. (I am using a piece of wood as a test subject, so no DR, resistance, etc. this would be pure, raw, output.) (I am also assuming that all the negative from Power attack goes to AC (shocktrooper) meaning -19 AC, aka Kamikaze rush.
Ill also save the trouble of not taking into account the weapon's d4-d8 dmg, too much of a hassle.


Unarmed/versatile method (whirling frenzy, snap kick)
gets 11 Attacks. Given around +15 from str (starting with 16 + 5 lvl + 5 tome + 6 item +4 from various sources + 4 from whirling frenzy), lvl 20 (19 BaB from having taken 4 lvls of BBC) and a +5 mighty fists ammy
The to hit should be around these lines...
35(*)/35(*)/35/33/33/33/33/33/30(*)/25(*)/20(*) * being the unarmed strikes

Now, considering everything hits. it would deal around 415 dmg, without any dive / valorous enchantment modifiers. just multiply by 4 and cry.


Afterwards, same thing, but this time... using a scythe. or a piercing 2handed weapon for that matter instead of the 2 claw attacks, but still using the bite attack, also considering that I did not take snap kick because bludgeoning doesn't work for a dive attack.

Given same circumstances as above, It would look like this:
35(*)/35(*)/33/33/33/30(*)/25(*)/20(*) 8 attacks, not as many. But with 40 dmg from power attack for 5 attacks, thats pretty powerful.

again, considering everything hits, it would deal around 491 dmg

Thats like 75 more dmg. And I have 2 extra feats (from not taking versatile Unarmed Strike and snap kick) which I can spend on extra toys.

Now, 75 x 4 is a big difference, and even though both are overkill, Ill take the + 300 dmg any day, because in actual games, a DM is likely to put stuff that hates piercing/is immune/resists it/etc.

Also... who doesnt like an angel of death swooping down from the skype to slice all infidels in half with his scythe of damnation.

I sure do.


Then again, I may be making some grave mistake or error/etc in my calcs. Is there anything specifically wrong?

this is the way that I see it, how would others see it?

[pwykersotz]

Is anyone here of the opinion that Whirling Frenzy and Ettercap Berserker stack for wonderful things?

The relevant part of Ettercap is:
When raging, you gain a +6 bonus to Constitution.
and
Prerequisite - Ability to rage

The relevant part of Whirling Frenzy is:
A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage.

Thus, Whirling Frenzy is still rage, and Ettercap explicitly gives you a +6 Con bonus during rage, now in addition to +4 Str, +2 dodge to AC, and +2 to Reflex. You lose the +2 to Will though. Possibly make that up with Steadfast Determination.

Thoughts?