So I presented my player with three apprentices.

[killem2]

LG Deathless Wizard

CG Hadooze Wizard

LN Talsoi Wizard

Any particular tips on handing out apprentices? Anyone every have a player who wanted to be a mentor?

[cakellene]

Am I missing a subtext here?

[Shining Wrath]

Did he take Leadership?

Or is this purely a role-playing thing?

I'd say the PC will need to spend a large amount of time teaching.

[killem2]

No, this is the apprentice/mentorship feat from DMG2

http://dndtools.eu/feats/dungeon-masters-guide-ii--40/mentor--3267/

http://dndtools.eu/feats/dungeon-masters-guide-ii--40/apprentice--3265/

It's got an entire subtext for how it is handled.

[AMFV]

Which job category? Also did you include organizational things, because that seems like a good way to go with that.

[cakellene]

No, this is the apprentice/mentorship feat from DMG2

http://dndtools.eu/feats/dungeon-masters-guide-ii--40/mentor--3267/

http://dndtools.eu/feats/dungeon-masters-guide-ii--40/apprentice--3265/

It's got an entire subtext for how it is handled.

I had written my reply before you edited OP. All you had at time was the 3 options with no detaiils, so it confused me a bit.

[killem2]

I had written my reply before you edited OP. All you had at time was the 3 options with no detaiils, so it confused me a bit.

My bad. You are very quick then :P.


These are spellcasters. The mentor is a wizard so they are going to be wizards.

[AMFV]

I would definitely give the player some nice stuff, he's basically taking an adventure hook thing for you, where you can have him have to save his apprentice, or help his apprentice, or what-not. And he's paying a feat to do it. I might even consider giving it to him for free.

[killem2]

Which job category? Also did you include organizational things, because that seems like a good way to go with that.

Where was that at?

I didn't see anything about organization.

If there is, it would probably be the the following:

These are your recruits, sent to you from the Free City Academy of Misfits and Outcasts. Please choose one for your Mentorship, and have the guards return the others.


I would definitely give the player some nice stuff, he's basically taking an adventure hook thing for you, where you can have him have to save his apprentice, or help his apprentice, or what-not. And he's paying a feat to do it. I might even consider giving it to him for free.


She wanted to do this, I didn't force her. I just had to accommodate the choices.

[Garagos]

Killem, I have no useful info for your post. I just wanted to say I love the Dragonstrike avatar!

[killem2]

Killem, I have no useful info for your post. I just wanted to say I love the Dragonstrike avatar!

FIGHT VALIANTLY, I SHALL RETURN.


Also, according to the rules, she gets to build this character outside of the alignment/race/gender. The rest is upto her. items and all. :smallcool:

[AMFV]

Where was that at?

I didn't see anything about organization.

If there is, it would probably be the the following:

These are your recruits, sent to you from the Free City Academy of Misfits and Outcasts. Please choose one for your Mentorship, and have the guards return the others.


I was suggesting you could add something to that effect, it could make it more flavorful, or less I'm not sure, it was a general suggestion, not a requirement of the feat in general.



She wanted to do this, I didn't force her. I just had to accommodate the choices.

I know, I was saying she's making a sub-optimal choice, that really benefits you, for flavor reasons, so some backscratching may be in order. I would in any case try to help out a character that did.

[killem2]

Oh I get ya now :).

I'm pretty generous with my stuff, so, we'll see how it goes.

[Red Fel]

FIGHT VALIANTLY, I SHALL RETURN.


Also, according to the rules, she gets to build this character outside of the alignment/race/gender. The rest is upto her. items and all. :smallcool:

What rules say that?

As I read the text, it says the player takes an NPC on as an apprentice.

Not a Cohort or Follower, and not an additional PC - an NPC Apprentice.

That means two things.

First: The apprentice is an NPC. That means build and control remain in the hands of the DM. The player can't say, for instance, "I want an efreeti apprentice with levels of Wizard followed by Rainbow Servant who wears a Cloak of Resistance 2 and holds a Spellsword." All up to the DM. Nor can the player say "I want my apprentice to fire Magic Missile while we're in combat." Up to the DM. Don't give up control of this character so easily.

Second: The apprentice is not the same as a cohort or follower. For example, combat is not required. Look at the "Expectations of the Apprentice" section of the Apprentice feat. There are, in essence, three expectations: Pay a tithe Study hard Perform minor tasksAs a rule, I find that risking life and limb is hardly a minor task. Combat is not required, and the apprentice has neither motivation nor obligation to fight alongside the PC. So keep that in mind.

As an aside, you didn't mention that your player had already been an Apprentice (including having the feat). Did you waive this, or has it happened?

Finally, consider the consequences to the player. To wit: What happens if the PC gets the apprentice killed? Adventurers' lives are fraught with peril. If you permit the PC to drag an apprentice into danger, and the apprentice dies, what happens to the PC?

[killem2]

More Stuff. It may clear up your questions.

Training an Apprentice
Apprentices advance with training. Each week, a mentor
is expected to dedicate at least 8 consecutive hours to
training with her apprentice. Meeting this minimum
amount of training allows the apprentice to advance and
keeps the mentor’s own skills honed. If she neglects her
apprentice, not only does she take a penalty to her mentor
score, but she also loses her skill check bonuses until she
spends time with her apprentice.
With adequate training, the apprentice gains a level each
time the mentor gains a level. He also acquires equipment
appropriate to an NPC of his class (see Chapter 4 of the
Dungeon Master’s Guide).
When the apprentice reaches 5th level, he graduates
and follows the mentor as a cohort, as if she had the
Leadership feat.

Favors from an Apprentice
Periodically, a mentor might need a favor from her apprentice.
To determine if the favor is granted, make a mentor
check by rolling 1d20 and adding the mentor score. A small
favor, such as assisting in the creation of a magic item or
guarding a location for a day, is a DC 15 check. A large favor,
such as asking the apprentice to accompany the mentor
on a short, relatively safe adventure or guarding a location
for several weeks is a DC 25 check. A huge favor, such as
asking for the apprentice to accompany the mentor on an
extended adventure or asking him to make the mentor a
magic item, is a DC 40 check. Each time the mentor asks
a favor of her apprentice, her mentor score goes down by
1, regardless of whether or not the favor is granted.

Losing an Apprentice
If a mentor’s score ever drops to 0 or lower, the mentor’s
apprentice grows dissatisfied and leaves. The mentor
immediately loses the bonuses to her associated skills.
The mentor can also choose to expel her apprentice at
any time; the results are identical to when an apprentice
voluntarily leaves. If her apprentice dies, she can choose
to have the apprentice raised from the dead, at which
point he might leave, depending on the circumstances
of his death.
The mentor can seek out a new apprentice once a month
has passed. If she gains a new apprentice, her mentor score
is reset to its base value, –1 per previous apprentice lost. If a
mentor loses too many apprentices, she’ll quickly fi nd that
no one wants to become her student due to the reputation
she’s gained.
At the DM’s option, relocating to a new, distant location
can remove the penalties for losing apprentices.
Finally, once the apprentice reaches 5th level and
graduates from his apprenticeship, he becomes a cohort,
as if the mentor had the Leadership feat. The mentor
can dismiss him, if she wishes, with no ill effect or hard

[Hangwind]

I... I want this feat! Shepherd an NPC through a few levels to gain a cohort? DEAL!

Once one has graduated, is the mentor free to get another apprentice?

[Red Fel]

More Stuff. It may clear up your questions.

Training an Apprentice
Apprentices advance with training. Each week, a mentor
is expected to dedicate at least 8 consecutive hours to
training with her apprentice. Meeting this minimum
amount of training allows the apprentice to advance and
keeps the mentor’s own skills honed. If she neglects her
apprentice, not only does she take a penalty to her mentor
score, but she also loses her skill check bonuses until she
spends time with her apprentice.
With adequate training, the apprentice gains a level each
time the mentor gains a level. He also acquires equipment
appropriate to an NPC of his class (see Chapter 4 of the
Dungeon Master’s Guide).
When the apprentice reaches 5th level, he graduates
and follows the mentor as a cohort, as if she had the
Leadership feat.

Favors from an Apprentice
Periodically, a mentor might need a favor from her apprentice.
To determine if the favor is granted, make a mentor
check by rolling 1d20 and adding the mentor score. A small
favor, such as assisting in the creation of a magic item or
guarding a location for a day, is a DC 15 check. A large favor,
such as asking the apprentice to accompany the mentor
on a short, relatively safe adventure or guarding a location
for several weeks is a DC 25 check. A huge favor, such as
asking for the apprentice to accompany the mentor on an
extended adventure or asking him to make the mentor a
magic item, is a DC 40 check. Each time the mentor asks
a favor of her apprentice, her mentor score goes down by
1, regardless of whether or not the favor is granted.

Losing an Apprentice
If a mentor’s score ever drops to 0 or lower, the mentor’s
apprentice grows dissatisfied and leaves. The mentor
immediately loses the bonuses to her associated skills.
The mentor can also choose to expel her apprentice at
any time; the results are identical to when an apprentice
voluntarily leaves. If her apprentice dies, she can choose
to have the apprentice raised from the dead, at which
point he might leave, depending on the circumstances
of his death.
The mentor can seek out a new apprentice once a month
has passed. If she gains a new apprentice, her mentor score
is reset to its base value, –1 per previous apprentice lost. If a
mentor loses too many apprentices, she’ll quickly fi nd that
no one wants to become her student due to the reputation
she’s gained.
At the DM’s option, relocating to a new, distant location
can remove the penalties for losing apprentices.
Finally, once the apprentice reaches 5th level and
graduates from his apprenticeship, he becomes a cohort,
as if the mentor had the Leadership feat. The mentor
can dismiss him, if she wishes, with no ill effect or hard

Okay. So...

1: It can become a cohort. Fine. But it's not one now. It's an apprentice. And the rules further state that asking the apprentice to follow you on a dangerous mission is basically the biggest thing you can ask. Asking the apprentice to actively engage in combat? Unthinkable. So the player has no control, and until it dings level 5, no combat minion.

2: The apprentice has an obligation to work hard with the mentor. That means the mentor also has this obligation. Is the player willing to dedicate that in-character time?

3: If it dies, the penalties are mostly the loss of feat benefits. That's kind of tame, actually. I'd suggest imposing greater penalties, because otherwise there's a very serious breakage risk here: All the mentor has to do is take a new apprentice. Further, this feat, in essence, gives a mentor infinite cohorts. Level up an apprentice, take cohort, repeat. That's kind of huge considering that all you have to do is work with the apprentice, get paid, and not kill them off.

As a DM, you should be thinking about these things. First, you choose the apprentice, not the player - the player may only accept or reject the apprentice you offer. Second, you also play the apprentice - it's your NPC, not the player's. Third, at least until graduation, the apprentice should not be engaging in combat. Fourth, I'd advise imposing more stringent penalties than those offered by the feat if the player gets her apprentice killed off. And finally, be aware that her goal may be infinite spellcasting cohorts. Don't let that be a thing.

[Modran]

Remember that the mentor has to gain 5 level in order for the apprentice to become a cohort. So gaining infinite cohorts would be challenging.

[Greenish]

What sort of Deathless is that one apprentice? Does BoED have a Deathless race/template I've missed?

Also, are the Hadooze and Talsoi related to the hadozee and the tasloi races? :smalltongue:

[Hangwind]

Remember that the mentor has to gain 5 level in order for the apprentice to become a cohort. So gaining infinite cohorts would be challenging.

Yeah, except there is nothing that says an apprentice loses levels when you do. So, all you have to do is have a Resurrection shuffle between level 6 and 7.

You go up a level, your apprentice does. You get yourself killed and resurrected. You go up a level, your apprentice does. Repeat until they are level 5. Now they are a cohort (2 levels below you). Attract a new apprentice, start all over again. You gain an army of fifth level characters

[Honjuden]

That trick only works if killem allows it to.

[Hangwind]

Well, yes. Rule Zero always applies.

If you mean by RAW though, it definitely works.

[Honjuden]

Pure RAW allows a lot of dumb things. They rarely make it through in practice though.

[killem2]

I don't think that trick is even remotely close to my player's radar :)

[Hangwind]

The question is why they are all Wizards. The apprenticeship seems to be based on skill-checks instead of actual abilities so why not toss in a few other classes.

(I find the idea of a barbarian apprenticed to a wizard amusing.)

[killem2]

The reason they are all wizard, is because the mentor is a wizard, and the RAW on this feat says the classes must match at least 1 level worth, and since they start at level 1, wizard it is :)

[Hangwind]

Can you get me a quote on that? I've looked it over several times and... I can't find that. In fact, the table of finding a master specifically states that having the same race and class as your mentor is a +1 modifier. I really can't see the requirement anywhere.

[ranagrande]

DMG 2, p. 179


An apprentice is similar to a cohort, except that the
apprentice doesn’t accompany the mentor on adventures
as a standard rule. A new apprentice is always a 1st-level
character. The apprentice’s race and gender can vary, but
his class must be identical to one the mentor possesses at
least one level in. Likewise, the apprentice must have the
Apprentice feat.

[Hangwind]

Huh. I was using D and D tools to get my reading, so I guess you're right. Still, does that mean the Apprentice can take the Mentor feat too?

[Red Fel]

Huh. I was using D and D tools to get my reading, so I guess you're right. Still, does that mean the Apprentice can take the Mentor feat too?

When he graduates, yes. Mentor requires Apprentice as a prereq. So, you could trigger the Infinite Leadership trick with this, with each Apprentice becoming a Cohort and a Mentor taking an Apprentice of his own, who becomes a Cohort and a Mentor and takes an Apprentice...

[ranagrande]

Yeah, except there is nothing that says an apprentice loses levels when you do. So, all you have to do is have a Resurrection shuffle between level 6 and 7.

You go up a level, your apprentice does. You get yourself killed and resurrected. You go up a level, your apprentice does. Repeat until they are level 5. Now they are a cohort (2 levels below you). Attract a new apprentice, start all over again. You gain an army of fifth level characters

I just saw that this won't work anyway:


In the case of the death or loss of a mentor, an ally or associate
of the prior mentor (who is of an equal level to the
original mentor) typically takes the place of the original.
The benefits gained from the Apprentice feat are not altered.


When he graduates, yes. Mentor requires Apprentice as a prereq. So, you could trigger the Infinite Leadership trick with this, with each Apprentice becoming a Cohort and a Mentor taking an Apprentice of his own, who becomes a Cohort and a Mentor and takes an Apprentice...
There's even an optional rule that allows people to switch the Apprentice feat for the Mentor feat upon graduation.

[Hangwind]

True, but typically does not mean always which would make resurrecting one of the more obvious exceptions. And that is viewed from the side of a PC Apprentice not an NPC Apprentice. The two have very different mechanics as shown by the leveling system.