Making Dervish Awesome?

[KnotKnormal]

Currently I am a scout 5/fighter 2/dervish 3. I would like this character to remain non-magical. so how do I make her better. I thought ranger would help with the favored enemy in place of fighter but I lose too many needed feats. currently can do 20D6 across 4 attacks while duel wielding scimitars. but I want to get bot my damage and attack output higher. I only have access to PHB1&2 and the complete books.

[KnotKnormal]

any know how to get this done?

[Snowbluff]

I would do a Swift Hunter, to be honest. 4 Levels of Ranger gets you a bonus feat (Complete Champion ACF), flanking bonuses versus your opponents (Players Handbook 2), TWF, and qualifies you for Swift Hunter, which allows you to bypass crit immunity for Skirmish.

[gorfnab]

Here is a variant of a basic Dervish Swift Hunter Build I have had some minor success with.

Human
Scout 5/ Ranger (ACF Arcane Hunter, CM) 2/ Barbarian (ACF Spiritual Totem: Lion, CC) 1/ Dervish 9/ Scout 3
Feats:
1. Dodge, Mobility
3. Weapon Finesse
4. B: Combat Expertise
6. Weapon Focus Scimitar
7. B: Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Swift Hunter
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. *Open Feat*
20. B: Improved Skirmish

*Open Feat Options* - Improved Critical Scimitar (meh), Extra Rage (can be a nice boost), Elusive Target (negates Power Attackers), Combat Reflexes (extra attacks, somewhat situational depending on the game), Deadly Defense (combos with Elaborate Parry), or Flay Foe

[KnotKnormal]

any options without going ranger?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Take a 1-level barbarian dip for Pounce-- charge + Full Attack lets you get skirmish damage on all your attacks, and probably the benefits of Improved Skirmish at that. Rage also helps your damage a bit.

[Zombulian]

Ur Priest won the Iron Chef for Dervish, I'd recommend checking out his build. a post of his is in my sig, click the green arrow and you see the full post. His Dervish build is somewhere in his own sig.

[Scow2]

Take a 1-level barbarian dip for Pounce-- charge + Full Attack lets you get skirmish damage on all your attacks, and probably the benefits of Improved Skirmish at that. Rage also helps your damage a bit.As a Dervish, you don't need Pounce to move+Full Attack. Their entire shtick is "Spring Attack On Steroids"

If you dip Barbarian for a Dervish, it's for the free +10' Speed Boost (Giving you more room to play around with your full attack) not Pounce.

Although it required flaws and didn't get me TWF, I've had fun with a Catfolk Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Scout 3/Dervish X. It nets you Improved Uncanny Dodge, Skirmish, All The Speed (60' Movement!), good AC (Take Expeditious Dodge, not normal Dodge - you have enough speed to move 40' before going into melee range and turning into a fuzzy cuisinart). You probably want to use your scimitar two-handed until you get TWF going on, if only for the extra point of damage.

There's a quirk about the Whirling Frenzy Barbarian variant: it doesn't specify that the extra attack granted by the Whirling Frenzy requires a full attack or even any specific action to take: If you make an attack, you get a secondary attack free (Similar to Improved Trip, but doesn't require the first attack to hit)

[Heliomance]

Would help if we knew exactly which bonus feats you need badly enough to want to stick with Fighter - we might be able to help you get them other ways.

[KnotKnormal]

Would help if we knew exactly which bonus feats you need badly enough to want to stick with Fighter - we might be able to help you get them other ways.

I'm using the Fighter Bonus Feats to pick up TWF and Improved TWF. This allows me to pick up Improved Skirmish and Weapon Focus.

It's starting lvl 10 so I want to create the most powerful thing I can early so I'm not suffering at the table early on before my build is complete.

[Heliomance]

I'm using the Fighter Bonus Feats to pick up TWF and Improved TWF. This allows me to pick up Improved Skirmish and Weapon Focus.

It's starting lvl 10 so I want to create the most powerful thing I can early so I'm not suffering at the table early on before my build is complete.

... Ranger gets the twf line for free :smallconfused:

[KnotKnormal]

... Ranger gets the twf line for free :smallconfused:

But not until lvl 6 would i get both of those feats that i can earn in a 2 lvl dip. also i would almost be forced to take swift hunter then which just adds to the feats i already have to squeeze in.

[Heliomance]

But not until lvl 6 would i get both of those feats that i can earn in a 2 lvl dip. also i would almost be forced to take swift hunter then which just adds to the feats i already have to squeeze in.

OTOH, you could take a lot less scout, as swift Hunter makes Ranger progress Skirmish.

[KnotKnormal]

OTOH, you could take a lot less scout, as swift Hunter makes Ranger progress Skirmish.

That is true. I would still lose one feat to swift hunter but if I lvl in scout next I get it back. It would increase my BAB and my fort and ref saves as well.

I'm going to have to drop spring attack to pick up swift hunter, but i can move while attacking anyway so not a huge deal. turns out i get spring attack for free.

I currently have
Combat Expertise (required for Dervish)
Dodge (required for Dervish)
Mobility (required for Dervish)
Weapon Focus Scimitar (required for Dervish)
Spring attack (Free)
Track (Free)
TWF (Free)
Improved TWF
Weapon Finesse
Improved Skirmish

What do i drop to pick up swift hunter?

This might just work, I'll see what i can do with this and repost later... Thanks

[KnotKnormal]

If I wait to get swift hunter I only lose 4D6 over my full attack string.
If I switch swift hunter and Improved Skirmish I lose 8D6 until I level up.
I think I'll wait to get swift hunter.

Your thoughts?

So far the build is
scout 3/range r2/fighter 2/dervish 3
Combat Expertise (required for Dervish)
Dodge (required for Dervish)
Mobility (required for Dervish)
Weapon Focus Scimitar (required for Dervish)
Spring attack (Free)
Track (Free)
TWF (Free)
Improved TWF
Weapon Finesse
Improved Skirmish

str 15
dex 17
con 15
int 16
wis 11
cha 16

dual wielding scimitars
leather armor

[Darrin]

If I wait to get swift hunter I only lose 4D6 over my full attack string.
If I switch swift hunter and Improved Skirmish I lose 8D6 until I level up.
I think I'll wait to get swift hunter.


Scout 4 gets a bonus feat, which can be used to grab Swift Hunter or Improved Skirmish.

If you need more skirmish damage, Highland Stalker 2 will give you +1d6 after only two levels, which is generally quicker than waiting for another 4 levels of scout or ranger.

Dragon Devotee and Unseen Seer can also be used to advance skirmish damage more quickly.

[Talderas]

But not until lvl 6 would i get both of those feats that i can earn in a 2 lvl dip. also i would almost be forced to take swift hunter then which just adds to the feats i already have to squeeze in.

Scout has partial BAB and not full BAB. Scout 5 / Fighter 2 / Dervish 3 only permits entry to Dervish at Lv8 and the earliest you may take ITWF is Lv8 with your Dervish class. which means you actually get ITWF at level 9.

Basically, if you want ITWF at level 6 you must take 6 full BAB class levels. Ranger 6 is the most straight forward since you get TWF and ITWF for free without requiring the Dex and it plays towards Scout/Swift Hunter.

Swift Hunter requires Ranger 1 and Scout 3. So with Ranger 3 / Scout 3 you meet the BAB requirement for Dervish and Ranger 3 / Scout 3 / Dervish 4 you meet the BAB requirement for ITWF but you don't have a bonus feat granted at lv7 to take it.

[KnotKnormal]

Scout has partial BAB and not full BAB. Scout 5 / Fighter 2 / Dervish 3 only permits entry to Dervish at Lv8 and the earliest you may take ITWF is Lv8 with your Dervish class. which means you actually get ITWF at level 9.

Basically, if you want ITWF at level 6 you must take 6 full BAB class levels. Ranger 6 is the most straight forward since you get TWF and ITWF for free without requiring the Dex and it plays towards Scout/Swift Hunter.

Swift Hunter requires Ranger 1 and Scout 3. So with Ranger 3 / Scout 3 you meet the BAB requirement for Dervish and Ranger 3 / Scout 3 / Dervish 4 you meet the BAB requirement for ITWF but you don't have a bonus feat granted at lv7 to take it.

It's a starting level 10 campaign so I'm not horribly concerned with the progression of levels up until that point. I'm more concerned with how to make it powerful starting so I'm not suffering through a crap build at the table, waiting to level up so I can complete the build.
I'm not sure how long the character will last, the suspected turn over of characters is about 3 sessions, for this new campaign.

[KnotKnormal]

Scout 4 gets a bonus feat, which can be used to grab Swift Hunter or Improved Skirmish.

If you need more skirmish damage, Highland Stalker 2 will give you +1d6 after only two levels, which is generally quicker than waiting for another 4 levels of scout or ranger.

Dragon Devotee and Unseen Seer can also be used to advance skirmish damage more quickly.

I plan on level in scout my next chance so I can pick one of those up, but it's starting lvl 10 so this is the starting build.

the highland stalker and scout get skirmish at the same rate but with ranger I also get favored enemies.

I really like the dragon Devotee, I might put some levels in that down the road, but there is no room to squeeze it in, in my current build.

[Talya]

I've always had an irrational love for the Dervish PrC. It's really not that good, but I love them. Most of my early attempts at optimization involved trying to do fun things with Dervish.

Now, the thing with dervish that you want is as much bonus damage as possible. The dervish is going to be taking a high number of attacks.

As others have mentioned, you do NOT want to sacrifice BAB here. It affects your number of attacks and the chance of you hitting. As such, you probably don't want scout. But I can see the appeal! Skirmish damage seems MADE for dervish.

The other way of getting skirmish is the Highland Stalker PrC, which is full BAB, but makes your feat-starved build even more hungry. Plus it needs existing skirmish (unavailable without scout) OR sneak attack. To keep full bab, you'd need to go into it with sneak attack fighter, which starves you even more of those oh-so-needed feats.

I'm not sure if it's worth it for the skirmish class feature. Other options for bonus damage? Glad you ask:

(1) 3 levels of swashbuckler. Don't knock it. Weapon Finesse for free (which you already want.) Int to damage (more bonus damage is good.) Full BAB, good fortitude save, 4 skills/level, it's not horrible.
(2) leadership and a bard cohort. (Assuming there's no bard in your party.)

I usually suggest trying to get dex to damage, but Champion of Corellon or shadow blade are both in books you don't have.

[Heliomance]

The nice thing about Ranger is that it lets you get the TWF chain without needed obscenely high dex.

[KnotKnormal]

I've always had an irrational love for the Dervish PrC. It's really not that good, but I love them. Most of my early attempts at optimization involved trying to do fun things with Dervish.

Now, the thing with dervish that you want is as much bonus damage as possible. The dervish is going to be taking a high number of attacks.

As others have mentioned, you do NOT want to sacrifice BAB here. It affects your number of attacks and the chance of you hitting. As such, you probably don't want scout. But I can see the appeal! Skirmish damage seems MADE for dervish.

The other way of getting skirmish is the Highland Stalker PrC, which is full BAB, but makes your feat-starved build even more hungry. Plus it needs existing skirmish (unavailable without scout) OR sneak attack. To keep full bab, you'd need to go into it with sneak attack fighter, which starves you even more of those oh-so-needed feats.

I'm not sure if it's worth it for the skirmish class feature. Other options for bonus damage? Glad you ask:

(1) 3 levels of swashbuckler. Don't knock it. Weapon Finesse for free (which you already want.) Int to damage (more bonus damage is good.) Full BAB, good fortitude save, 4 skills/level, it's not horrible.
(2) leadership and a bard cohort. (Assuming there's no bard in your party.)

I usually suggest trying to get dex to damage, but Champion of Corellon or shadow blade are both in books you don't have.

Ok, what if I take one more level in scout and ranger, this would only lose me 1 on my total BAB and still grants me the extra skirmish damage with that extra scout swift hunter bonus feat. this means I would only star dervish at level 10 but I could just keep leveling in dervish as apposed to trying to squeeze in what I can.
to be clear I would be a scout4/ranger3/fighter2/dervish1 with a BAB of +9/+4, 2 favored enemies, +2D6/+2AC, All the feats listed before +swift hunter, and I think all my saves go up as well... I'll have to re cajigger the math.

If I want more skirmish damage down the line I'll have to get it through ranger or other means.

What do you think?

[morkendi]

My favorite dervish I played was cobra strike monk 2/ fighter 2/ pally 2 into dervish. I went vop, but turned out very fun. Cobra strike monk gave dodge and mobility. I took versatile unarmed strike to make my hands count as slashing weapons. Also, elusive target is awesome in dervish builds. Ac and saves were very high, plus evation. It was very hard to hit me with melee or spells that gave a save.

[KnotKnormal]

My favorite dervish I played was cobra strike monk 2/ fighter 2/ pally 2 into dervish. I went vop, but turned out very fun. Cobra strike monk gave dodge and mobility. I took versatile unarmed strike to make my hands count as slashing weapons. Also, elusive target is awesome in dervish builds. Ac and saves were very high, plus evation. It was very hard to hit me with melee or spells that gave a save.

that actually sounds really cool... Ill have to check that out, dont think it will work for what i want here though.

[Urpriest]

Ur Priest won the Iron Chef for Dervish, I'd recommend checking out his build. a post of his is in my sig, click the green arrow and you see the full post. His Dervish build is somewhere in his own sig.

Won't really work for this poster though, unfortunately. Sanavakri is a THF Dervish, and mobility is sort of a sidenote to the build, so it doesn't really do anything the OP seems to be looking for.

[cakellene]

It was IC XXII, if you wanted to check the various builds.

[KnotKnormal]

I think I'm going to settle on scout 4/ ranger 3/ fighter 2/ dervish 1.
I get all the starting feats I need, and it also leaves me the option of going in ranger to get an animal companion (probably a hawk) or continuing with Dervish. I think this build leaves me with the most options to work with and not become stagnate at the table.

please let me know what you guys think.

[Urpriest]

I think I'm going to settle on scout 4/ ranger 3/ fighter 2/ dervish 1.
I get all the starting feats I need, and it also leaves me the option of going in ranger to get an animal companion (probably a hawk) or continuing with Dervish. I think this build leaves me with the most options to work with and not become stagnate at the table.

please let me know what you guys think.

I might get another level of Ranger instead of that Fighter level. Ranger 4 gets you a bonus feat if you trade out your spellcasting (it's an ACF in Complete Champion). Chances are there's one on that level you could use.

[KnotKnormal]

I might get another level of Ranger instead of that Fighter level. Ranger 4 gets you a bonus feat if you trade out your spellcasting (it's an ACF in Complete Champion). Chances are there's one on that level you could use.

can I do two different ACFs? because I was going to be the Arcane Hunter from Complete Mage (I think)

Do remember what the name of the one in complete champion is?
nevermnd... found it. Champion of the Wild

[Grod_The_Giant]

can I do two different ACFs? because I was going to be the Arcane Hunter from Complete Mage (I think)

Do remember what the name of the one in complete champion is?
nevermnd... found it. Champion of the Wild
As long as the ACFs don't trade out the same feature, you can take as many as you can fit.

[KnotKnormal]

As long as the ACFs don't trade out the same feature, you can take as many as you can fit.

Thank you I had no Idea you could do that... that changes a few things for a character in my campaign.

[Feint's End]

If it hasn't been suggested yet get Acrobatic Strike from PHB II. It gives you +4 to hit after you avoided an AOO from moving but now comes the kick ... since you are permanently moving through enemy squares and you can take 10 on tumble (dc 25 should be easy to beat for full speed movement) you basically get +4 on EVERY single attack you make. Just make sure to always move at least through 1 threatened square of every enemy.

The synergy between Dervish Dance and the feat make it pretty much a must have.

Personally I'm a big fan of using Elven Courtblade and Dervish in Conjunction for ridiculous results (two handed weapon? Yes please!) but sadly it isn't an option for you due to limited books available.

Just take Acrobatic Strike and go to down. Maybe ask your DM to allow Piranha Strike from PF?

[KnotKnormal]

If it hasn't been suggested yet get Acrobatic Strike from PHB II. It gives you +4 to hit after you avoided an AOO from moving but now comes the kick ... since you are permanently moving through enemy squares and you can take 10 on tumble (dc 25 should be easy to beat for full speed movement) you basically get +4 on EVERY single attack you make. Just make sure to always move at least through 1 threatened square of every enemy.

The synergy between Dervish Dance and the feat make it pretty much a must have.

Personally I'm a big fan of using Elven Courtblade and Dervish in Conjunction for ridiculous results (two handed weapon? Yes please!) but sadly it isn't an option for you due to limited books available.

Just take Acrobatic Strike and go to down. Maybe ask your DM to allow Piranha Strike from PF?

That's actually really awesome, I was going to do elusive target but that is perfect for what I'll be doing. thanks for the tip.

[Feint's End]

No problem man ... that's what we are here for ... aren't we?