Only 1 Cohort? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

PraxisVetli

2013-12-18, 10:50 AM

AMFV

2013-12-18, 10:52 AM

So, I'm building a character that, ideally, will run a nation (think Obould Many Arrows).
Obviously, I need Leadership. However, while I could run around with a cohort and followers, I'm wondering if there is a way to just have more cohorts.
I want there to be me, my two Second-in commands, and gradually descending from there.
The problem is, with Leadership, there's Me, someone almost as cool as me (Cohort), and 50,000 level 1's.
How does one run a Kingdom? How do I get a Second in Command, an Elite guard, some decently leveled warriors 5-7th lvl, and then 50,000 farmers?
I think I'm just looking for an extra cohort feat I can take once or twice. I've looked, but I fear my Google-fu is weak.
Or, worse, does such a thing not exist, and how would I go about it?

There's the Orc Warlord, that fits pretty well, Thrallherd grants at least two Cohorts. If your Kingdom is a standard size one you can definitely build an army based on the demographics there. You could combine Thrallherd, Leadership, and Undead Leadership, to have as many as four cohorts, possibly more. You can hire mercenaries. If you gather a horde (as per the Orc Warlord you'd get some lieutenants as well)

PraxisVetli

2013-12-18, 10:59 AM

There's the Orc Warlord, that fits pretty well, Thrallherd grants at least two Cohorts. If your Kingdom is a standard size one you can definitely build an army based on the demographics there. You could combine Thrallherd, Leadership, and Undead Leadership, to have as many as four cohorts, possibly more. You can hire mercenaries. If you gather a horde (as per the Orc Warlord you'd get some lieutenants as well)
Where is Orc Warlord, I might be able to get my DM to refluff it.

my fluff is a Liardfolk that had hid tribe wiped out by hobgoblins. So of course, when I post asking how to rebuild said tribe, its a Hobgoblin Warblade that shows up to help. The irony is corporeal.

AMFV

2013-12-18, 11:01 AM

Where is Orc Warlord, I might be able to get my DM to refluff it.

Races of Faerun. Also published online: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a. There you go that should help some, you could potentially combine that with Thrallherd for two pools of followers, and if you had that, Thrallherd, and Leadership, you'd have three cohorts and two pools of followers, if you add undead leadership and dragon leadership, that'd give you two more. How does that suit you?

You could also add in some levels of that really bogus Skymage class, which gets a mount that can get pretty ridiculous also.

PraxisVetli

2013-12-18, 11:06 AM

Races of Faerun. Also published online: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a. There you go that should help some, you could potentially combine that with Thrallherd for two pools of followers, and if you had that, Thrallherd, and Leadership, you'd have three cohorts and two pools of followers, if you add undead leadership and dragon leadership, that'd give you two more. How does that suit you?

You could also add in some levels of that really bogus Skymage class, which gets a mount that can get pretty ridiculous also.
Well, Undead Leadership's iffy, (fluffwise), and I'd have to look at Thrallherd.
The mount, not so much, and I think my DM would make me earn Dragon Leadership.

Palanan

2013-12-18, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by PraxisVetli
The problem is, with Leadership, there's Me, someone almost as cool as me (Cohort), and 50,000 level 1's.

From a leader's perspective--especially a paranoid horde leader's perspective--this is a good thing. Having too many high-level lieutenants would mean a flock of ambitious challengers, all too close and waiting for a mistake.

Just one cohort, who's clearly subordinate and dependent on you, can be the Marc Antony to your Caesar, a natural second-in-command. A whole group of them would all too easily form an alliance to take you down. They would fracture and turn on each other afterwards--but you'd be gone by then.

For practical character purposes, there's no reason why your uppermost followers can't be the leaders of your elite guard. And you don't need followers to be farmers--those come with the kingdom.

:smalltongue:

Deadline

2013-12-18, 11:09 AM

Well, you might want to double check the wording in the Leadership rules. IIRC, it's a little ambiguous, and leaves room for you to have multiple cohorts, assuming your DM is ok with it.

AMFV

2013-12-18, 11:11 AM

Well, Undead Leadership's iffy, (fluffwise), and I'd have to look at Thrallherd.
The mount, not so much, and I think my DM would make me earn Dragon Leadership.

Did I mention the mount could be a Pit Fiend? Just have the Undead guy, be from your village, still loyal to the lizardman cause. And even if you have to earn it the dragon is probably worthwhile.

PraxisVetli

2013-12-18, 11:23 AM

Well, you might want to double check the wording in the Leadership rules. IIRC, it's a little ambiguous, and leaves room for you to have multiple cohorts, assuming your DM is ok with it.

I'm not sure how you get that...?

Uncle Pine

2013-12-18, 11:24 AM

I could swear I've seen a feat like "Extra Cohort" somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. Without such a feat, if you want to avoid things like the Trallherd and Undead Leadership, I think you have to stick with Leadership. Which means only one cohort.
Such a cohort would be a good second-in commands and he could take Leadership to net you a third-in commands (the cohort's cohort) which would be 4 levels weaker than you. However, both Heroes of Battle and Dragon Magazine #346 have some feats that could solve this issue.
Heroes of Battle has Improved Cohort, Dragon has Close Cohort. They do exactly the same thing: they raise your cohort level cap up to your level -1. The former has a Cha 15 prerequisite, the latter doesn't. Unfortunately by RAW they don't stack because they don't raise your cohort level cap by 1: they just modify it up to the same value (but ask your DM, he might allow them to stack). Anyway they both raise your cohort level by 1 and your cohort's cohort level by 2, which is handy.
Moreover, both Heroes of Battle and Dragon Magazine #346 have a bunch of other nifty leadership-related feats.

PraxisVetli

2013-12-18, 11:59 AM

Having my Cohorts have Cohorts seems like more inviting of a Coup than having multiple cohorts..

Deadline

2013-12-18, 11:59 AM

I'm not sure how you get that...?

A character of 6th level or higher can start attracting cohorts and followers by taking the leadership feat.

There are no limits on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohorts, nor limits to the number of cohorts who can be employed by a character.

Note that cohorts is plural in the first quote, and the second quote seems pretty explicit. Of course, there are several other places where cohort is listed singularly, so it's not the most solid argument, but one could be made. And if your GM is down with it, you are good to go with just Leadership.

As was mentioned earlier, cohort chaining is the quick and easy route to multiple cohorts of varying degrees of power. There is also the relatively easy route of just hiring people.

PraxisVetli

2013-12-18, 12:33 PM

Ooooh, I might be able to get him to run it off a modifier. probably Cha.

Heliomance

2013-12-18, 01:27 PM

Pretty sure there's an Extra Cohort feat in Heroes of Battle.

The Insaniac

2013-12-18, 05:19 PM

There's also the Dreadmaster from Faiths and Pantheons. You get another cohort at levels nine and ten, a bunch of buffs to leadership score and best of all, Fanatical Loyalty. Basically, once you hit level eight, your followers are permenantly dominated and don't get to resist even if you give them self-destructive of morally objectionable commands.

Uncle Pine

2013-12-18, 05:23 PM

Pretty sure there's an Extra Cohort feat in Heroes of Battle.

I can't seem to find it, although I remember something similar too. :smallfrown:
But I did find this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/general-feats/extra-cohort) Pathfinder feats googling "Extra Cohort d&d feat".

Slipperychicken

2013-12-18, 05:34 PM

You don't need the Leadership feat if the character actually runs a nation. Just tell the GM that your character gets his army together. On that scale, your Leadership minions are probably just your personal retinue anyway, with other NPCs serving as regular soldiers.

For mechanics of running nations, I've heard good things about Pathfinder's Kingmaker rules. Also, you could look to ACKS for inspiration. D&D 3.5 does very poorly when you try to scale it up like that.

Having my Cohorts have Cohorts seems like more inviting of a Coup than having multiple cohorts..

If you're trying to run a state in D&D, that will just be one problem among thousands.

Chadamantium

2013-12-18, 05:35 PM

Are cohorts able to take Leadership? Or is that too cheesy?

Slipperychicken

2013-12-18, 05:36 PM

Are cohorts able to take Leadership? Or is that too cheesy?

Yes on both counts.

Jormengand

2013-12-18, 05:39 PM

Having my Cohorts have Cohorts seems like more inviting of a Coup than having multiple cohorts..
Yes on both counts.
Yo dawg, I heard you liked leadership...

Nettlekid

2013-12-18, 05:44 PM

I was going to suggest the Cohorts taking Leadership, and people already have. What I don't see mentioned is that the Dragon Cohort feat allows you to pick a Dragon as a Cohort and treat is as though its ECL is three less than it is. So you can pick a Dragon with an ECL equal to your ECL. And it can take Dragon Cohort, getting another Dragon of your ECL. Infinite dragon chain.

If you're talking about an army, I suggest the Necromancer route. I love Master of Shrouds for it, but any good Rebuker will do the job. Rebuke a (Greater) Shadow, a (Dread) Wraith, an Allip, a Wight, whatever you want. (Or use Undead Leadership to have a high level Undead guy do it for you.) Use them to spawn more of themselves. All the spawn are 100% loyal to the Undead, who is 100% loyal to you. The weak point is the first Undead, who if killed makes all the others go wild, but you can protect it well.

Slipperychicken

2013-12-18, 05:58 PM

molten_dragon

2013-12-18, 06:03 PM

You could combine Thrallherd, Leadership, and Undead Leadership, to have as many as four cohorts, possibly more.

Thrallherd specifically bans you from taking leadership.

AMFV

2013-12-18, 06:09 PM

Thrallherd specifically bans you from taking leadership.

So it does... Although you could still take the Dragon Cohort, and Undead Cohort feats I imagine.

Coidzor

2013-12-18, 06:12 PM

Pathfinder has some rules for making and running Kingdoms that aren't too shabby if you're not allergic to Pathfinder material. IIRC, a fair amount (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building)of it is available online.

There's Extra Followers in Heroes of Battle as well as Improved Cohort(lets the cohort be one level closer to your PC).

I'd swear there was an Extra Cohort feat somewhere, but it might be Dragon Magazine content.

Thrallherd, of course, gives 2 thralls, eventually.

Dragon Cohort might give a second cohort. Even better if you can get it expanded to other dragons, say Steel Dragon (Spellhoarding) (Loredrakes).

Heliomance

2013-12-18, 06:45 PM

I can't seem to find it, although I remember something similar too. :smallfrown:
But I did find this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/general-feats/extra-cohort) Pathfinder feats googling "Extra Cohort d&d feat".
My bad, it's Extra Followers and Improved Cohort.

I was going to suggest the Cohorts taking Leadership, and people already have. What I don't see mentioned is that the Dragon Cohort feat allows you to pick a Dragon as a Cohort and treat is as though its ECL is three less than it is. So you can pick a Dragon with an ECL equal to your ECL. And it can take Dragon Cohort, getting another Dragon of your ECL. Infinite dragon chain.

I swear the normal limit on Leadership is 2 below your ECL. So with Dragon Cohort you can in fact have a dragon with an ECL one higher than yours. And that dragon can have a cohort with an ECL one higher still. And so on.

Seer_of_Heart

2013-12-18, 07:05 PM

Where is the dragon cohort feat? :smallconfused: I was researching it before but couldn't find it.

Heliomance

2013-12-18, 07:08 PM

Draconomicon, I think.

Coidzor

2013-12-18, 07:09 PM

Draconomicon page 104 for Dragon Cohort, if googling is to be believed.

Yep, while regular Leadership devolves to having enough ECL 6+ Followers with sufficiently high leadership scores to get more ECL 6+ Followers for its infinite chains, Dragon Cohort allows one to go further and further, barring a limiter, like no Epic characters.

Sadly I don't think it's possible to get a real loop going for Wild Cohorts, even if you go so far as to allow animal companion feats, such as Exalted Companion to effect them, which would open up (Vow of Poverty >) Exalted Companion + Wild Cohort for them.

Nettlekid

2013-12-18, 07:46 PM

My bad, it's Extra Followers and Improved Cohort.

I swear the normal limit on Leadership is 2 below your ECL. So with Dragon Cohort you can in fact have a dragon with an ECL one higher than yours. And that dragon can have a cohort with an ECL one higher still. And so on.

"So hey...why are we following this human, anyway?"

Slipperychicken

2013-12-18, 08:07 PM

"So hey...why are we following this human, anyway?"

*BLAM*
"Questioning the God Emperor of Dragonkind is HERESY! Praised be his blessed name!"

Hangwind

2013-12-18, 08:12 PM

There is the option of taking an apprentice for a free cohort. There is also raise cheese that will allow you infinite cohorts.

PraxisVetli

2013-12-18, 10:57 PM

You don't need the Leadership feat if the character actually runs a nation. Just tell the GM that your character gets his army together. On that scale, your Leadership minions are probably just your personal retinue anyway, with other NPCs serving as regular soldiers.

For mechanics of running nations, I've heard good things about Pathfinder's Kingmaker rules. Also, you could look to ACKS for inspiration. D&D 3.5 does very poorly when you try to scale it up like that.

If you're trying to run a state in D&D, that will just be one problem among thousands.

Well, I'm starting solo, and want to end with a nation.
DM's having me do it through Leadership