Questions reguarding the Sha'ir

[HereBeMonsters]

Is it me or is the spell casting of this class extremely convoluted?
You have a small spells known section ok.. but that takes you 1d4+1 rounds to have the Gen search for them except... why they are you spells known which is indicated as being different then the spells the Gen finds for you.

Other arcane spells take 1d6+1 minute per level for it to find a spell the Sha'ir has seen before and spellcraft checked. And specifically says it does not become a spell learned or known for the purposes for the Gen finding it again.

Then we get the divine spells from the domains it has access to. 1d6+1 Hours per level for the gen to find the domain spells. Now you must make a diplomacy check of DC 20 for each spell with modifiers giving and taking bonuses away as need be.

Are Dragon Compendium stuff OGL? I would much rather show you guys the stuff here. But here is the link to the tools site.
http://dndtools.eu/classes/shair/

Was the point to make the spell gathering system so confusing the Wizard looked like any idiot could play it?
I mean in the case of the domain spells you would have to be prepping spells Days in advanced.

[Psyren]

I summarized the class here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13429667&postcount=14) Let me know if this helps or if you have more questions and I'll try to answer.

[AMFV]

Is it me or is the spell casting of this class extremely convoluted?
You have a small spells known section ok.. but that takes you 1d4+1 rounds to have the Gen search for them except... why they are you spells known which is indicated as being different then the spells the Gen finds for you.


It's not just you.



Other arcane spells take 1d6+1 minute per level for it to find a spell the Sha'ir has seen before and spellcraft checked. And specifically says it does not become a spell learned or known for the purposes for the Gen finding it again.

That's great for finding the right spells and always having good options, particularly with scrying being a thing, you can see many many spells. and your spellcraft should be good, once you get good divinations you should have any spell you need.



Then we get the divine spells from the domains it has access to. 1d6+1 Hours per level for the gen to find the domain spells. Now you must make a diplomacy check of DC 20 for each spell with modifiers giving and taking bonuses away as need be.


The Diplomacy checks aren't that hard to make as you advance in levels unless you're playing in a very low level game I wouldn't optimize it too much, just enough to make the checks as needed, which shouldn't be hard for a Cha based caster.



Are Dragon Compendium stuff OGL? I would much rather show you guys the stuff here. But here is the link to the tools site.
http://dndtools.eu/classes/shair/

Was the point to make the spell gathering system so confusing the Wizard looked like any idiot could play it?
I mean in the case of the domain spells you would have to be prepping spells Days in advanced.

Not days in advance, but hours, probably the night before, also the Sha'ir doesn't need to rest eight hours, he can recuperate spells as he goes. So at night is the perfect time for your divine spell thing. There aren't too many good ones that aren't on your arcane list, but some of them will be situationally great.

[HereBeMonsters]

It made some things more clear thanks but it just doesn't make sense.

It gives you domains and then punishes you heavily for using them Hours...at max a level 1 domain could take 7 hours to prepare, at least 2 hours to retrieve.

The way I see this you could easily be waiting on your Gen while your party mates go off and slay the big bad without you because you have to wait potentially days to get a handful of domain spells and recall each spell requires a different time the Gen goes out. So to fill you're slots you will always be slower then the Wizard or Sorcerer unless you stick to strictly spells known.

Why give these cool benefits just to slam down the judgement of making them all but useless in an actual game?

[The Insaniac]

First, you have access to any spell on the wizard/sorcerer list at any time with a bit of a wait. This means that you can leave a few slots open for later (find a locked door, grab a knock spell, scout reports trolls, get some fire and acid etc.).
Second (and this is the big one), the Sha'ir casts divine spells. That on its own opens up a huge number of prestige classes even if you never cast a domain spell. In addition, you technically have access to a number of domains which means that you can probably find some kind of cheese with that. Finally, you get miracle.

[HereBeMonsters]

I am not saying it has no benefits I am saying the wait for the domain spells is insane. Yes with spells known they are almost instant as rounds take seconds to do and yeah out of combat the DM can rule it in real time or just give you them if he is bored.

But yeah with the domains you get punished for wanting to use them 2-7 hours for a level 1 domain spells and these increase to 3-8 for second level and so forth.

So a few domain spells could cost you a day in spell preparing. Another thing is that you lose all these spells you waited hours on after a number of hours equal to your Sha'ir class level so at level 1 your spells fail after 1 hour.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The domains are crap, yeah, but the rest of the mechanism is utterly fantastic. (It helps to think of your "spells known" as rote spells). Prepare about half your spells from the list of "spells known" in case of combat, and leave the other half open for any situations that may arise later.

[HereBeMonsters]

I agree its a good class but it is the wait, and yeah most of the domains suck but they allow access to spells a few levels early in some cases.

So is there any way to speed up the time? Maybe a time spell or planer shifting to a plane with a faster time progression or something?

[Psyren]

Call your divine spells right before bed?

The main benefit to having them on the list though is that you can use scrolls and other items containing those spells since they count as being on the Sha'ir's list. So a Sha'ir can use, say, a scroll of Dictum or Entropic Shield.

[Fouredged Sword]

Really, it's all about spells known selection. Spells known should be spells you will want when you are caught unprepared, or for things you need on short notice.

Mage armor, teleport? Those can be gathered in minuets.

Fireball, color spray? You may want that in a hurry.

[HereBeMonsters]

Well I know that spells known and spell list. are good things, yes having a wand of any spell on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list, so yeah very useful.

Was just curious.

I was planning on using it in a Gestalt so the left without spells is not a huge issue just something I wanted more details on.

Heck a Spirit Shaman/Sha'ir might be fun, one covers for the other.
3/4 BAB 4+INT Good Fort and Will all seem very nice but the familiar thing would be the issue is your guide is considered a familiar.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have considred a Sha'ir 20 / cleric X / Contemplative X

Getting all the elemental domains (there are 5 of them, as far as I can tell) would be really fun. Control a swarm of elementals and genie who obey your commands.

Command an Efreeti at level 20 for free wishes. You can get two, so 6 a day. That is enough for +5 to all stats.

[HereBeMonsters]

Ok that would be a very cool idea for a domain except doesnt the Sha'ir have access to all those domain spells? Or where you looking for the powers too?

[Fouredged Sword]

The domain powers grant the ability to turn or rebuke things with the elemental subtypes. This means rebuking a Efreeti or even some dragons.

Besides, the Sha'ir's ability to cast divine spells is horrid. Be a cloistered cleric and ignore that class feature.

[HereBeMonsters]

Its only good for PrC I get that. Its a worthwhile class for sure. But seriously reduce the time requirements and you have a powerful bad@ss class.

But I can see it working as a powerful Spellcaster offset in Gestalt.
But what class meshes well with the Cha focus?

[IAmTehDave]

Interesting thought: The Sha'ir can qualify as either side of a Mystic Theurge. Or both. It can also obtain the benefit of any +arcane or +divine spellcaster bonus. (The domain spells a Sha'ir can retrieve are specifically called out as divine spells, not as Divine Spells Being Cast As Arcane Spells.)

You can also use Sha'ir to qualify for other divine PrCs as an arcane caster, and get the awesome effects of it. (Dweomerkeeper, for instance. (Get Magic as a bonus domain somehow, first.)) You probably need to figure out how to get Knowledge:Religion (or Nature) as a class skill, or Able Learner, or a 1-level dip in Factotum or something.

Not sure if it was mentioned, but your divine spells should probably be retrieved while you sleep for the night.

I've wanted to play a Sha'ir since I saw the class somewhere, but as I only really have time for one game at a time, and the class wouldn't fit...

Also: Your Gen is a familiar, and the entire basis of your spellcasting ability. Never let anyone else know the name of your Gen.

Edit: A divine spell can be retrieved for you while you sleep for the night.

[HereBeMonsters]

The question I have is. Is this time per round/minute/hour for all spells individual or for collective time?

Meaning if I wanted a level 1 spell and a level 2 spell I would need to wait 1+2-6+2 range for the second level spell but does that cover the 1rst level spell as well or would it have to be 1+1-6+1 for the first level spell the Gen comes back then goes for the second spell.

[IAmTehDave]

The question I have is. Is this time per round/minute/hour for all spells individual or for collective time?

The gen can only retrieve one spell at a time.

Anything else would be a house rule.

Edit:

Once a gen is sent out to fetch a spell, it cannot be recalled; it is gone for the duration of the search.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Its only good for PrC I get that. Its a worthwhile class for sure. But seriously reduce the time requirements and you have a powerful bad@ss class.

But I can see it working as a powerful Spellcaster offset in Gestalt.
But what class meshes well with the Cha focus?
Battle Dancer 1 gets you Cha to AC. Paladin 2 gets you Cha to saves. Binder likes Cha, and has a whole bunch of nice little bits. Marshal 1 can buff your Diplomacy and Spellcraft checks.

[HereBeMonsters]

Battle Dancer 1 gets you Cha to AC. Paladin 2 gets you Cha to saves. Binder likes Cha, and has a whole bunch of nice little bits. Marshal 1 can buff your Diplomacy and Spellcraft checks.

Wow this would make a very nice combo class.

IAmTehDave: It still does not list how that works. Can you find where it officially says that the Gen can retrieve only one spell at a time. Because if not then it is up to the DM and Player to determine. And to be honest it would make the class much easier to play with level 9 spells costing 1+9 Hours - 6+9 Hours total which would include all his lesser spells he is trying to retrieve as well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

IAmTehDave: It still does not list how that works. Can you find where it officially says that the Gen can retrieve only one spell at a time. Because if not then it is up to the DM and Player to determine. And to be honest it would make the class much easier to play with level 9 spells costing 1+9 Hours - 6+9 Hours total which would include all his lesser spells he is trying to retrieve as well.
The entire section is written in singular tense ("a spell," "the spell," and so on). On the other hand, you may be able to get away with just leaving your familiar a list of spells to grab and going to bed.

[IAmTehDave]

Wow this would make a very nice combo class.

IAmTehDave: It still does not list how that works. Can you find where it officially says that the Gen can retrieve only one spell at a time. Because if not then it is up to the DM and Player to determine. And to be honest it would make the class much easier to play with level 9 spells costing 1+9 Hours - 6+9 Hours total which would include all his lesser spells he is trying to retrieve as well.

A sha'ir decides what spell might be useful and sends out his familiar to retrieve it from the elemental planes. To do this, the sha'ir must summon his gen and tell it the name of the spell he seeks. The gen immediately plane shifts to seek the spell in the elemental planes.

This says that the Sha'ir names a spell, and the Gen immediately goes to chat up the elemental planes to find the spell. How long does this take? Well, it says so just under that:
The gen's success in finding the desired spell depends on the following parameters.
Arcane Spell Known: To retrieve an arcane spell that the sha'ir can normally cast (that is, one within his Spells Known repertoire), the gen must search for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + the spell level.
Arcane Spell Unknown: The sha'ir can cast a spell from the sorcerer/wizard list he does not know but has seen the effects of and identified with a successful Spellcraft check. If the sha'ir seeks to cast such an arcane spell, the gen must search for ld6 minutes + 1 minute per spell level. A spell so retrieved does not become learned or known for the purposes of the gen retrieving it again.
Divine Spell: Retrieving a divine spell, known or not, takes a gen ld6 hours + 1 hour per spell level. The gen can retrieve only divine spells from the domains indicated above.

That means that if the spell is one of their spells "known" (Similar to Sorcerer spells known) it takes 1d4+spell level rounds to find.
If it's a spell the Sha'ir is familiar with (Has identified with a successful Spellcraft check) then it takes 1d6+spell level Minutes to find.
If it's a Divine spell that the Sha'ir is allowed to cast, then it takes 1d6+spell level hours.

Let's give an example now: A Sha'ir of 6th level wants to prepare spells. They can prepare, before ability bonuses, the following:
0th: 5 1st: 4 2nd: 4 3rd: 3

If they prepare 3 0s, 2 1sts, 2 2nds, and 1 3rd, all of spells they know, (and thus leave spell slots open for contingencies) it will take:

0th: (1d4)*3 (1-4 each, or total 3-12)
1st: (1d4+1)*2 (2-5 each, or total 4-10)
2nd: (1d4+2)*2 (3-6 each, or total 6-12)
3rd: 1d4+3 (4-7)
Between 17 and 41 rounds, to prepare half their spells per day with spells known. And I really wouldn't, as a Sha'ir, prepare much more than half my spells/day all at once.

This time will increase, if you're preparing spells not "Known", but you should probably have your actual known spells cover a nice variety of "on the fly" spells

Edit: Bear in mind that there is (AFAIK) no listed action required to send your Gen away. So literally all the time taken to prepare your spells is actually being taken by your Gen. You, yourself, can do other things in all this time. Contrast a wizard, which by the SRD requires 1 hour of study to prepare all of their spells. And I keep seeing 15 minutes thrown around on these boards as the minimum time required to prepare spells, even mid-day. A Sha'ir, on the other hand, can be mid-combat, and while taking a full round of actions, tell their gen to go fetch a useful spell. If it's a known spell, it might even come back in time to have an effect on the current encounter.

Again Edit, for One More Thing!: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732 can be a valuable resource for seeing what you can do with a particular stat. Not sure if it's all-encompassing, but there's a lot there. And Cha is the go-to-stat for "add this stat to something else".

[HereBeMonsters]

But again it does not say it can only go 'shopping' for a single spell at one time just that it will not come back without the spell or spells you desire unless it fails to get them.

I see it working out one of three ways:
1. The way you are all saying it works.
I ask for a 1rst level spell and roll a 1+1 Rounds for a known spell then it comes back to me and I get to ask for the second and third spell and so forth with the Gen only able to do one spell at a time.

2. The way I think it may work.
I ask for a 1rst level spell for a known spell, a 2nd level known spell, two 1rst level unknown spells, a 2nd level unknown spell, and finally a 3rd known spell.
I roll a 1 and 2 for the first two meaning 1+1 and 2+2 so a total of 4 rounds, now I roll for my unknown spell of 1rst and second levels I roll a 2 and a 4 so that is 2+1 Minute and 4+2 Minute for a total of 6 minutes, now for my 3rd level known spell I roll a 6 so its 6+3 rounds for a total of 9 rounds.
Now the spell that will take the longest is the 2nd level of an unknown spell list at 6 minutes. Now I do not get any of the spells yet till the 6 minutes are up and the Gen brings back all the spells at the time of the longest spell to be retrieved.

3. The way I hope it doesn't work.
I ask for a level 9 domain spell and roll a 1+9 for 10 hours, I also ask for two 2nd level unknown spells rolling a 1 and a 2 on those for 1+2 and 2+2 Minutes to be added onto my 10 hour wait. Then I ask for a 5th level domain spell rolling a 6 so 6+5 hours making the total 21 hours and 7 minutes before I receive ANY of those spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

It works the first way. The gen brings back the spells one at a time, in the order you asked for them.

[HereBeMonsters]

I would then ask my DM to trade every Domain for a Feat rather then be stuck with a useless class feature.
Level 20 people.
Spells you know cost you 9+1 - 9+6 rounds
Spells you do not know cost you the same in Minutes.
Domain spells cost you the same in Hours and this is for a single spell.
Now yes these are all 9th level spells but thats one spell.

If your campaign does not have a LOT of downtime this class is useless.

[Elderand]

I would then ask my DM to trade every Domain for a Feat rather then be stuck with a useless class feature.
Level 20 people.
Spells you know cost you 9+1 - 9+6 rounds
Spells you do not know cost you the same in Minutes.
Domain spells cost you the same in Hours and this is for a single spell.
Now yes these are all 9th level spells but thats one spell.

If your campaign does not have a LOT of downtime this class is useless.

Your problem is that you are looking at it through the lens of a no downtime campaign.

The divine spell aren't there to be used in combat or in the thick of things. It's there to be used during downtime to fortify a place or raise the cleric if he gets killed.

If you want a divine spell that can be used in combat you are better off getting a scroll of it.

[DeusMortuusEst]

As a caster with access to 9:th level spells you don't need to worry about time either, if you so wish...

[Grod_The_Giant]

If your campaign does not have a LOT of downtime this class is useless.
You're too focused on the (crappy) domains. You have neigh-unrestricted access to the entire sorcerer/wizard list, for no more time than a wizard spends preparing spells. Is that not enough for you? Are you not entertained?

[HereBeMonsters]

No I do get that.

My point is either you have all your useful spells on your spells known and can only reliably cast spells of that because your Gen can fetch them somewhat quickly then why not be a Sorcerer and cut out the extra nonsense.

If you want access to the FULL Wiz/Sorc spell list you have to wait minutes to do it meaning these are spells you may not have wanted to add to your precious spells known list but want handy. However these are not spells you are gonna want on the battle field or even when out wandering the world as Minutes are a long dang time in DND when fights last in comparison maybe a minute or two at most most of the time unless its a boss fight.

But as you said the Domains are BS nonuseful spells for when the Cleric got beat down. However if you need to wait HOURS to fetch the spell and not only that but are losing out on your Gen fetching other worthwhile spells that he could have fetched during those hours then the Domains are worthless.

The Sorcerer and Wizard do it better without the convoluted rules in the air.

My question is why this class exists in a campaign where a sorcerer or wizard would be? I get its from an older edition but those still had those classes.

The 3rd way I listed is actually how this works except it brings back the spells every time it is done with them. Meaning if you ever sent it out for a 3rd level spell and suddenly needed a 1rst level.. well you dont get it till those minutes or rounds are up either way, then you have to wait the extra time for that requested 1rst level spell to be added.

Basically half the time you are either burning through your quickest to prepare spells (Sorcerer style) or playing the waiting game for the new spells to replace the ones you burnt up while waiting for these.

Also since your spells expire after hour=Class level does this mean you have a constantly renewing spells per day list?

[Elderand]

The Sorcerer and Wizard do it better without the convoluted rules in the air.

That is simply not true, a Sha'ir can get access to every arcane spell on the wizard/sorcerer spell with the only condition being to have seen the thing.
Neither wizard nor sorcerer can do that whitout a rather significant investment of ressource be it through money or prc.

Better still, that ultimate spell the enemy wizard researched on his own and never ever shared with anyone ? He can keep that one safe from other wizards or sorcerers, from a sha'ir ? Not so much. The only way to keep an original spell safe from a sha'ir is to never cast it.

The sha'ir neuter the secret part of secret weapon by simple virtue of being around.

So no, wizard and sorcerers don't do it better, they do what they do more simply but to do what the sha'ir do take them a considerable amount of effort.


My question is why this class exists in a campaign where a sorcerer or wizard would be?

I'm going to answer your question with a question. Why should wizard and sorcerer even exist in any given campaign ? Just because something has been printed doesn't mean it automaticly exist.

Might as well ask why you should bother having wu jen in your game.

The answer is simple, the dm like the idea and put it in.

[HereBeMonsters]

Well you do have a point, I meant more the casting aspect i agree the copy cat aspect is what makes me interested in this along with some other details.

[Fouredged Sword]

I have wanted to make Sha'ir the main arcane caster for a game world. I would allow any Gen, Familiar, and homebrew least dragons to act as familiars. Then, the character can choose their domains they access, and mix and match the skill used to recover spells.

It would provide a great deal of variety in what the caster feels like while using a unified mechanic. Want to be a witch with a raven familiar who taps into plants, animals, evil, and lizards, and intimidates her way to magic, fine. Want to be a scholarly wizard who pulls magic from a extraplaner library of magic, who taps into tons of divination? Sure!

[IAmTehDave]

The third method doesn't actually exist. And as far as being caught off-guard, you should have spells already prepared at the start of the day that can keep you from being screwed over while your gen is retrieving other spells.

Alternatively: Come level 9, you and your allies can grab hands and disappear to the Elemental Plane of Air 1/day as a standard action, where you can hang out for a while. Unfortunately, unless you can cast Plane Shift again, you're stuck there for a day.

Also: Your Gen probably shouldn't be busy fetching a minutes-to-grab spell while you're in danger, unless you have a few ways of getting out of trouble already prepared.

In other news: Minutes are a lot more usable in most games than you seem to be giving credit. A lot of actions that your other party members are going to be doing are probably measured in minutes, also.

On paper, the Sha'ir seems to have a weird skill cap comparable to Batman Mage. Except that you don't have to find somewhere to give yourself 15 minutes to prepare the spells you need, you just mutter then in Auran to your Gen, and it comes back to you in a minute, or a few minutes. During that time, you can have performed 10-150 rounds worth of actions not preparing a spell.

On the other hand: A wizard isn't bargaining for his spells, he's just preparing and casting them. The 2+int skills don't hurt a wizard nearly as bad as they hurt a Sha'ir, since the wizard has int as his spellcasting stat, vs the Sha'ir using charisma.

[HereBeMonsters]

It does suck that you cannot get an improved familiar but its not a total loss when the Gens are around as they can use wands and scrolls.

Ok so I was working on a build for a Sha'ir Gestalt.
Sha'ir 5//Battle Dancer 1/Paladin 2/ (But I have run into a wall.)
So Marshals get the benefits of their auras?

What classes should I apply on that side?

[HereBeMonsters]

Actually the minutes are a long time in most games, especially when it comes to events in the game, yes if you are walking down the hall minutes pass by no problem, heck just hang out and rest and you get those.

Yes you should not be asking for minute spells in combat, but again those would be your spells that you know like a Sorcerer can but without the rounds of waiting. But yes a few rounds 1-3 is nothing but thats likely a 1 or 2 level spell and that is on a good roll.

Yes the class is interesting and has some uses but the higher you go up in spell levels it seems like the worse it is to use anything but your spells known and to not fill out your spells slots. Yes every 4 levels you can switch out a spell known, but that is a handful over a 1-20 career.

EDIT: Hmm upon looking at wording i think your known spells can actually be spells from the domains. Because you get a -6 for an Unknown Divine spell meaning you can know them. Its just Divine spells ALWAYS take hours.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the combat thing. Combat is over in seconds of game-time, and (most) campaigns don't throw you from fight to fight without any time to breathe in between.


Use your spells known to grab combat spells and things you'll need in an emergency.
At the start of the day, fill up about a handful of slots-- enough to slog through an encounter or two-- with combat spells. This will take approximately zero time compared with anyone preparing spells. You can also grab any arcane spells that you know you'll use later at this point.
When you get in a fight, send your gen for a combat spell from your list of spells known, and use your prepared combat spells to fight. If the fight is still going when he gets back, rinse and repeat.
After the fight, retrieve enough spells to cover the next one while everyone is healing up and moving out.
Use your unfilled slots to solve problems that arise along the way. If you're not in a fight, 99% of the time it won't kill you to wait a few minutes won't kill you.

[HereBeMonsters]

Actually that was my point outside of combat this class is even better then thought but inside it gets iffy depending on what happened.

Also I was curious about the spells per day thing since you lose spells after an hour per class or character level so if you where to lose those spells via expiration would you have to wait till the next day to prepare more spells? Or do those spell slots reload each time you re-repair them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Actually that was my point outside of combat this class is even better then thought but inside it gets iffy depending on what happened.

Also I was curious about the spells per day thing since you lose spells after an hour per class or character level so if you where to lose those spells via expiration would you have to wait till the next day to prepare more spells? Or do those spell slots reload each time you re-repair them.
Unclear. Probably you can reuse 'em-- it's spells cast/day, not spells retrieved/day. But a DM might argue otherwise.

[IAmTehDave]

Actually the minutes are a long time in most games, especially when it comes to events in the game, yes if you are walking down the hall minutes pass by no problem, heck just hang out and rest and you get those.

Yes you should not be asking for minute spells in combat, but again those would be your spells that you know like a Sorcerer can but without the rounds of waiting. But yes a few rounds 1-3 is nothing but thats likely a 1 or 2 level spell and that is on a good roll.

Yes the class is interesting and has some uses but the higher you go up in spell levels it seems like the worse it is to use anything but your spells known and to not fill out your spells slots. Yes every 4 levels you can switch out a spell known, but that is a handful over a 1-20 career.

EDIT: Hmm upon looking at wording i think your known spells can actually be spells from the domains. Because you get a -6 for an Unknown Divine spell meaning you can know them. Its just Divine spells ALWAYS take hours.

As a Sha'ir, you have a spellbook, and Sorcerer-style spells known. Your spellbook is the list of all of the spells you've identified with a successful spellcraft check. Those spells, you can pseudo-prepare like a wizard, interspersed throughout the day. (That way you don't have all your spells expiring at the same time at low levels)

Your Spells Known, you can throw in your slots on much shorter notice.

The thing about Sha'ir is you're kind of halfway between a Wizard and a Sorcerer. You have more spells/day than a Wizard, but fewer than a Sorcerer.
The Divine spells are weird icing on the cake.

The Sha'ir is a prepared arcane caster, with spontaneous spell access.

Also:

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the combat thing. Combat is over in seconds of game-time, and (most) campaigns don't throw you from fight to fight without any time to breathe in between.

At the start of the day, fill up about a handful of slots-- enough to slog through an encounter or two-- with combat spells. This will take approximately zero time compared with anyone preparing spells. You can also grab any arcane spells that you know you'll use later at this point.
When you get in a fight, send your gen for a combat spell from your list of spells known, and use your prepared combat spells to fight. If the fight is still going when he gets back, rinse and repeat.
After the fight, retrieve enough spells to cover the next one while everyone is healing up and moving out.
Use your unfilled slots to solve problems that arise along the way. If you're not in a fight, 99% of the time it won't kill you to wait a few minutes won't kill you.


Remember that you can do all that preparing spells nonsense...without it taking your time to prepare. You can help with other camp activities while your Gen goes and retrieves your spells.

And the above quote is probably good practice as a Sha'ir, said much more succinctly than mine.

It makes no sense whatsoever to have your expired spells spend the slots. You lose the power to cast the spell, as retrieved by your gen. You don't lose the power to use the spell slot.

[HereBeMonsters]

I am gonna give this a try as mentioned above.
Any idea on a gestalt offset?
I am using Battle Dancer and currently Paladin 2. I need two other levels or a 4 level replacement of the paladin.. the lawful good is kind of a pain lol.

[IAmTehDave]

I am gonna give this a try as mentioned above.
Any idea on a gestalt offset?
I am using Battle Dancer and currently Paladin 2. I need two other levels or a 4 level replacement of the paladin.. the lawful good is kind of a pain lol.

Marshal or Dragon shaman might be a good passive class. Warlock or Dragonfire Adept have some really good social invocations.

As a Charisma based caster, consider that you may very well end up as the party Face.

[Psyren]

I like it because it is the only T1 Cha-based caster.

I also like it because it can cast divine spells, so you can actually combine it with Warlock, ET and ED to get 9th-level spells and Dark invocations without needing Ur-Priest. You can even justify it fluff-wise by having your powers come from an Efreet or Marid.

[HereBeMonsters]

A Sha'ir 20// Warlock 20 is nice.
I do like the battle dancer 1 for the Cha to AC given that nither side can wear armor or at least not anything but light armor and has no weapon profs to speak of that will do much.

[Hangwind]

WAAAAAIIIIITTT!!!!

I think you are all miss-reading how the Sha'ir works! The only limitation on your spells is how many you can cast in a day. How many you retrieve is entirely up to you. Once you hit higher levels (10+) you are basically keeping whatever spells you have for the totality of your day. You can have your gen retrieve your entire spell list and any other potentially useful spells at the beginning of your day, with no limit. Then you continue to have him retrieve spells for the rest of your adventuring day with no real fear of being short a spell.

Congratulations, you have just become the I-Pad of spell-casters. Any possible situation, and there IS a spell for that.

[Psyren]

It's true you can frontload your retrieval like that but every time you cast a spell it does leave your mind and must be retrieved again unless you retrieved multiples. In addition, every spell you retrieved decays at a rate of 1 hr./Sha'ir level. Your gen will have a hard time keeping up with all that entropy which is why in practice it works like daily retrieval.

[HereBeMonsters]

The retrieval bugs me due to that the back and forth aspect, the Gen is almost always going off to pick up spells so it kinda feels like its not really a familiar but it fills that slot and prevents Improved Familiar.

So Psyren how would you do it?

[Hangwind]

Yeah, at the lower levels it can be hard to keep up with, but by the time you hit 10th? You are probably keeping all of the spells for most of the day. It is really easy to refresh your spell list with 10 hours to work with.

[AMFV]

The retrieval bugs me due to that the back and forth aspect, the Gen is almost always going off to pick up spells so it kinda feels like its not really a familiar but it fills that slot and prevents Improved Familiar.

So Psyren how would you do it?

If the DM rules that you can retrieve ad infinitum, I'd take less levels of sha'ir, basically your gen would always be grabbing stuff, but your spell load would be resetting near constantly allowing you to reprepare spells much quicker and be much more prepared in any given scenario.

[Psyren]

So Psyren how would you do it?

If you focus on spells known it should only take you an hour or so to fill all your slots - the same amount of time as a Wizard. Past level 5-8 or so they will stay in your head all day and you won't need to worry about them.

For the rest I would either use items or simply leave a slot or two unfilled, say we really need to solve a mystery or something else situational and I don't have a gizmo for it, I can have the answer in a few minutes to an hour.

[AMFV]

If you focus on spells known it should only take you an hour or so to fill all your slots - the same amount of time as a Wizard. Past level 5-8 or so they will stay in your head all day and you won't need to worry about them.

For the rest I would either use items or simply leave a slot or two unfilled, say we really need to solve a mystery or something else situational and I don't have a gizmo for it, I can have the answer in a few minutes to an hour.

That's why I wouldn't go further than level 8 in Sha'ir provided the DM has ruled it works favorably for the recovering spells. I'd probably go to about level 5, then you could be continually cycling spells and be much more prepared for any given scenario, or at least that's how I'd play it.