BladeSinger Style Build

[kalos72]

The lead player in my group is now having concerns about his toon and wants to "rebuild" it somehow. I am NOT inclined to do this mid game...

He has an old school fighter/mage and really wants to move it to a Bladesinger style build/class but i have no clue about these builds.

I have found multiple classes called "Bladesinger" but they are different... i had given him alot of slack with the toon leveling and find myself in a spot now that he is bringing up the BladeSinger class.


Suggestions on a build/prestige class?

[infomatic]

What's his current build? And which bladesinger concept has he latched onto?

[Phelix-Mu]

There was a 3.0 Bladesinger PrC and a 3.5 Bladesinger PrC. As I recall, I liked the 3.0 one better, but my system mastery back then was quite inferior to now. The 3.5 one is pretty terrible; big feat tax, paltry benefits, half-casting progression. If he wants gish, there are about a billion better ways to gish.

Duskblade itself is seen as the elven spellcasting warrior, but it's totally different from Bladesinger lore (Bladesingers are mobility-based unarmoured/lightly armoured with one-handed weapons, Duskblade are fully armoured and often have shields or THF).

Your best bet is some Bladesinger homebrew, which can be dangerous territory unless you really have a good sense of what is balanced and what isn't.

Quick Fix: Bladesinger 3.5, crush it into a 5 level class, drop one or two of the pre-req feats. Suggest it come just before or just after or intermixed with Abjurant Champion (one of the gold standards of sword-and-spell style PrCs).

[kalos72]

We play a homebrew...sort of 3.75. Mostly 3.5 with a little 4.0 mixed in as see fit.

He is even more clueless then I am with the options so I am sure I can keep him flexible.

Where are the Duskblade and Abjurant Champion from?

[Phelix-Mu]

We play a homebrew...sort of 3.75. Mostly 3.5 with a little 4.0 mixed in as see fit.

He is even more clueless then I am with the options so I am sure I can keep him flexible.

Where are the Duskblade and Abjurant Champion from?

Duskblade is a base class from Player's Handbook 2 and Abjurant Champion is a PrC from Complete Mage.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Duskblade is a base class from Player's Handbook II while Abjurant Champion is a prestige class that can be found in Complete Mage.

For guides, see here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786)

[kalos72]

I cant get to the guides right now...

But Duskblade seems like an issue...considering you can only get lv 5 spells...and he is a 23rd level mage right now. :(

Abjurant Champion has potential...but no armor?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Abjurant Champion doesn't need armor in the traditional sense, as one casting of Greater Luminous Armor acts as +5 full-plate with none of the drawbacks. If he is looking for enhancements, pick up some +1 twilight mithral chainshirt and slap whatever he wants onto that.

[Icewraith]

Abjurant Champion doesn't need armor in the traditional sense, as one casting of Greater Luminous Armor acts as +5 full-plate with none of the drawbacks.*

*Except the light you continuously shed, making it impossible to hide and attracting all kinds of attention in certain sets of circumstances. In particular, consider carefully before using in the Underdark or Negative Energy plane.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

*Except the light you continuously shed, making it impossible to hide and attracting all kinds of attention in certain sets of circumstances. In particular, consider carefully before using in the Underdark or Negative Energy plane.

Invisibile spell solves that problem.

[kalos72]

I assume the armor would only be cast once you engage so it might not be too much of an issue...

So the suggestion is go 23rd mage/5 or 10 Abjurant Champion?

[kalos72]

I understand this is 3.5 forum but...the 4e bladesinger seems pretty cool?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I assume the armor would only be cast once you engage so it might not be too much of an issue...

So the suggestion is go 23rd mage/5 or 10 Abjurant Champion?

Abjurant Champion is only 5 levels long, so you take those said five levels. Typically, you'd end up going something like Human Paragon 3 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon)/Wizard 3/Eldritch Knight X/Abjurant Champion 5. From there, after you hit level 20 and have at least 16 BAB and 17 CL, you could take Legacy Champion Weapons of Legacy to gain extra effective pseudo-levels in Abjurant Champion.

Also, note that, with Invisible Spell, it won't matter that Greater Luminous Armor is up all day, considering that the spell will last for twice its normal hours per level duration anyhow. Hell, Add Extend Spell to triple it and only cast it only once every three days (six by CL 24).

[kalos72]

But do you think its acceptable to take a 23rd level mage and mash him up into 3-4-5 different classes?

Would the mage side still be as effective?

[Phelix-Mu]

But do you think its acceptable to take a 23rd level mage and mash him up into 3-4-5 different classes?

Would the mage side still be as effective?

As long as you have 17 levels that grant spellcasting (18 for a sorcerer progression) then you will get access to 9th level spells. Whether a gish actually needs 9ths is a different question, but more is always better when we are talking Arcane Strike and such. 9ths also open up the highest levels of gamebreaking stuff out-of-combat, such as gate and shapechange, which between them can net one a whole nation/plane if used to their logical extreme by a clever player.

Oh, and ice assassin (Frostburn).:smallsmile:

[Pluto!]

PF's Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) always felt more like the 2e Bladesinger than the Duskblade did, especially with the Kensai (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/kensai) archetype:
1-handed fighting, light armor, a more wizardly spell list than the duskblade's, and the defining features of the 3e Bladesinger without the level delay, bad early levels or conspicuous inefficiency.

[Greenish]

Invisibile spell solves that problem.Invisible Spell doesn't get rid of the light emitted, much like turning invisible doesn't hide the light from your torch, to the best of my knowledge.

[Vanitas]

I stopped reading at 'toon'

[kalos72]

One thing I noticed about the 4e version from the Neverwinter campaign set, no spell list?

[kalos72]

I stopped reading at 'toon'

Thanks for the positive contribution...:/

[Phelix-Mu]

Invisible Spell doesn't get rid of the light emitted, much like turning invisible doesn't hide the light from your torch, to the best of my knowledge.

From Invisible Spell (Cityscape 61):

Benefit: You can modify any spell you cast so that it
carries no visual manifestation. All other aspects of the
spell, including range, area, targets, and damage remain
the same. Note that this feat has no bearing on any components
required to cast the enhanced spell, so the spell’s
source might still be apparent, depending on the situation,
despite its effects being unseen. For example, a fi reball cast
by someone with this feat could be made invisible in the
moment of its detonation, but everyone in the area would
still feel the full effect (including the heat), and any fl ammable
materials ignited by the explosion would still burn
visibly with nonmagical fi re. Those with detect magic, see
invisibility, or true seeing spells or effects active at the time
of the casting will see whatever visual manifestations
typically accompany the spell.
A spell modifi ed using the Invisible Spell feat uses a
spell slot of the spell’s normal level.

The luminous armour description definitely has the light being an effect of the spell, clearly part of the magic, as it dispels darkness spells of certain levels. Thus, it sounds to me like the light is a "spell effect" and a "visual manifestation," and thus is likely to be covered by the ludicrously vague description given by the feat.

I'd be curious to know, if there is no light, do creatures attacking the wearer still take a penalty to melee attacks due to the blinding light? That would be corny as all hell.

Anyway, you could probably find a different way of obscuring the light effect if this was a real gamebreaker. With the benefits of the greater version, the total effect is a bizarre +13 to AC with 5 levels of Abj Champ, and another effective +4 in melee combat (if the light is in play). That's some pretty hefty buffs, especially given the stupidly long duration.

Also note that you don't take the sacrifice damage for casting the spell until after it expires (which stands to be at least a couple days at high level).

[kalos72]

I like the Abjurant Champion feel...so go with 23rd mage/5 Abjurant Champion?

Mage to provide the complete spell list/levels and AC to cover the melee portion?

Have you seen the 4e Bladesinger?

[Xintas]

Light and heat are both manifestations of energy (in varying degrees of effectiveness and nearly always paired).

Just for the sake of argument, if something dimmed the explosion of a fireball but didn't stop the heat, it would not stop the light either.

In this sense, it stops the light from a fireball but not the heat. Precedence in the description seems to indicate that light behaves differently than heat for that spell.

Further complicating the issue, the "effect" of fireball (aka damage) would be caused by the heat (as it is fire damage). This "active" effect is not suppressed, while all of the fluff description is.

In the spell for the armor, the light has an active effect. Just in terms of my game, I would say that all active effects are felt/experienced but anything fluff wise goes away (the armor is not visible, but the clang of hitting the armor is felt and the light is visible).

[HylianKnight]

PF's Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) always felt more like the 2e Bladesinger than the Duskblade did, especially with the Kensai (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/kensai) archetype:
1-handed fighting, light armor, a more wizardly spell list than the duskblade's, and the defining features of the 3e Bladesinger without the level delay, bad early levels or conspicuous inefficiency.

The Elf-specific (which Half-Elves also qualify for) Magus Archetype seems to be blatantly channeling the Blade Singer, to the point where the name itself is a blatant 'wink-wink, please-don't-sue-us.' (Blade/Spell -Singer/Dancer)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf/spell-dancer-magus-elf

[Pluto!]

The Elf-specific (which Half-Elves also qualify for) Magus Archetype seems to be blatantly channeling the Blade Singer, to the point where the name itself is a blatant 'wink-wink, please-don't-sue-us.' (Blade/Spell -Singer/Dancer)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf/spell-dancer-magus-elf
I did not know about that one, but you're right.

There was also someone on these boards who had a pretty spot-on Duskblade variant homebrew in their sig which took a lot less squinting and turning your head funny to see as the old-school bladesinger than the typical Duskblade. I'd definitely take one of those approaches instead of fighting the rules to make the stock class work.

[WhamBamSam]

But do you think its acceptable to take a 23rd level mage and mash him up into 3-4-5 different classes?

Would the mage side still be as effective?PrCing out into other classes that progress spellcasting is actually superior to sticking to straight Wizard. Losing caster levels is bad, but there's really no disadvantage to something like Abjurant Champ once you've already qualified for it.

When it comes to gishy PrCs, I'm rather fond of Jade Phoenix Mage (Tome of Battle), it's only 8/10 casting, but it might be spot on for the feel the player is going for.

Since you have 23 levels to work with, you could go with something like...

Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5/Swordsage 1/Crusader 1

Enough pre-Epic BAB for a 4th iterative, 18 effective Wizard levels for 9th level spells, 9th level maneuvers, free Quicken and Empower without needing the feats whenever you smack an enemy with a martial strike, and more besides.

[Coidzor]

kalos: 4e doesn't have spells, so that's one reason why there wouldn't be any spell list for a 4e class. It has powers and rituals which may replicate/translate some spell effects.



With 23 levels, that means there's 6 that could be used for something other than caster levels and still get 9th level spells, so one can choose to have a better BAB or more skills or more different PrC abilities than just casting progression.

Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 10 becomes a bit more attractive due to being able to still get 9th level spells thanks to those 3 extra levels. Wizard 4/[Full BAB] 1/Swiftblade 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade+9 gets 18 BAB at 20th level and 15th level casting, after 20th level, BAB works differently, so it's less of a focus. +3 levels of a full casting PrC of one's choice or even Sacred Exorcist/Knight Phantom/Eldritch Knight and you've got 9ths on a more standard gish build.

:smallsigh: Ech.

Wizard 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/X 1 gets 18th level casting, BAB 17, plus whatever you plug in for X.

edit:Swiftblade would sorta fit with Bladesinger.

I suppose a Bardblade or Bardsader might sorta fit with the general concept of a musical warrior, typically something like Bard 4/Warblade 16/Bard +3 or Bard 6/Warblade 14/Bard+1/Sublime Chord 2, with Song of the Raven and inspire courage optimization, maybe dragonfire inspiration.

Straight Bard 13/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 5 or Bard 14/Sublime Chord 9 might work, even, with a bard built for melee combat, especially with the Snowflake Wardance feat.

Could do a variant on the theme, get Bard 7/Virtuoso 1/Warblade 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8/Warblade +3 for 9th level spells and 7th level maneuvers.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 10 becomes a bit more attractive due to being able to still get 9th level spells thanks to those 3 extra levels. Wizard 4/[Full BAB] 1/Swiftblade 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade+9 gets 18 BAB at 20th level and 15th level casting, after 20th level, BAB works differently, so it's less of a focus. +3 levels of a full casting PrC of one's choice or even Sacred Exorcist/Knight Phantom/Eldritch Knight and you've got 9ths on a more standard gish build.

I'm not seeing how a fourth level wizard is gaining entry into Swiftblade, what with the not being able to cast haste and all. If instead you used some sort of BAB-booster, you could get in with Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 1 before taking Swiftblade, but otherwise, no go.

[Urpriest]

One thing I noticed about the 4e version from the Neverwinter campaign set, no spell list?

Yes, just like the Dog in Monopoly lacks a bite attack. Different games aren't really meaningfully comparable.

[Coidzor]

I'm not seeing how a fourth level wizard is gaining entry into Swiftblade, what with the not being able to cast haste and all. If instead you used some sort of BAB-booster, you could get in with Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 1 before taking Swiftblade, but otherwise, no go.

Ahh, brainfart, sorry. x.x

[vhfforever]

If you want to keep it simple, and as close to just 'fighter and caster' you should allow him the Otherworldly feat from Player's Guide to Faerun (which gives him the outsider type, and thus all martial weapon proficiency) and have the build...

Wizard 6, Eldritch Knight 10, Abjurant Champion 5, Eldritch Knight +2

This gives +17 BAB pre-Epic and 22 Caster Level with Abjurations that will last far longer than he should need.

[Vaz]

Kung Fu Genius Monk 2/Duskblade 13+ does a Bladesinger but better.

[Draz74]

PF's Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) always felt more like the 2e Bladesinger than the Duskblade did,

Except maybe with the homebrew Elf Duskblade Substitution Levels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179198).