Threatening with ranged attacks?

[Randomocity132]

I've been reading up on flanking and threatening squares for the rogue I'm going to be playing next campaign, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how I can tell if a thrown weapon (such as darts or daggers) or a ranged weapon, for that matter, will qualify for a sneak attack via flanking. I understand the ruling for sneak attacks on flat-footed enemies that have a lower initiative, but what about flanking? If I have an ally who threatens an enemy in melee, can I stand opposite of them at 20 feet and get a sneak attack on that enemy?

[Greenish]

You need to threaten to flank. You can't normally threaten with ranged weapons.

[Icewraith]

For ranged attacks you generally either need surprise (and the target not have uncanny dodge or foresight), the target needs to be flat-footed (usually climbing or balancing with less than 5 ranks in the appropriate skill-bags of marbles are the rogue's friend), or possibly stunned, or you need to be invisible (and the target needs to not have blind-fight, blindsight, or blindsense).

Off the top of my head. A skirmishing ranger/scout swift hunter build generally does ranged precision damage a lot more consistently with Greater Manyshot.

Edit: You may be able to sneak attack grappling targets once you have Improved Precise Shot.

[Greenish]

you need to be invisible (and the target needs to not have blind-fight, blindsight, or blindsense).If you're invisible, creatures with blindsense still lose Dex to AC against you. If you're attacking at range, having Blind-Fight doesn't help your opponents (it's melee only).

[Randomocity132]

Okay, that really helps. It seems that the way we've been using initiative will make it impossible to use ranged weapons to deliver sneak attack, since we've been doing the "roll just one time at the start of combat to determine turn order" kind of initiative.

Following that, my next question is if a rogue can sneak attack during an attack of opportunity, assuming the target is flanked before he begins moving to provoke it.

[Icewraith]

If you're invisible, creatures with blindsense still lose Dex to AC against you. If you're attacking at range, having Blind-Fight doesn't help your opponents (it's melee only).

True. Also note that under normal circumstances you need to be within... 30'?... of the target to sneak attack it, and you can't sneak attack it if it has cover (improved precise shot negates this) or concealment or is immune to critical hits.

Also note that many monsters have blindsense/sight out to 30' or more, so if you can sneak attack it they know where you are. You may be able to get it out to 60'.

Edit: On the first round of combat you can sneak attack anyone you're ahead of in the initiative order (subject to the other restrictions) IIRC. This may only work in surprise rounds however.

Also- throw bag of marbles at target's square, or have your mage buddy grease everything. If nobody has 5 or more ranks in blaance, sneak attack.

[Greenish]

It seems that the way we've been using initiative will make it impossible to use ranged weapons to deliver sneak attack, since we've been doing the "roll just one time at the start of combat to determine turn order" kind of initiative.That's how initiative works. :smallconfused:


Following that, my next question is if a rogue can sneak attack during an attack of opportunity, assuming the target is flanked before he begins moving to provoke it.Yes. AoO happens before the action that provoked it, so if a creature is flanked, and leaves the flanked square, it would provoke, and still be flanked when the AoO occurs.

[Randomocity132]

That's how initiative works. :smallconfused:


Isn't it supposed to be that you roll initiative each turn?

[Icewraith]

If you do that effects that last for one round (like the monk's stunning fist) can be worse than useless if the opponent rolls well on initiative. Generally speaking you preserve the same initiative order from round to round so the players know when their turn is coming up.

You can also have terrible things like...
Dragon surprises PCs.

Dragon solid fogs most of the party on his surprise round. Roll initiative, Dragon goes last. The party responds to the Solid Fog with their turns and maybe attacks the dragon. The dragon full attacks someone or moves and breathes on the party.

Roll initiative. This time the dragon goes first. The dragon full attacks the same character or whoever took damage from the breath without him being able to respond and kills him.

[Randomocity132]

If you do that effects that last for one round (like the monk's stunning fist) can be worse than useless if the opponent rolls well on initiative. Generally speaking you preserve the same initiative order from round to round so the players know when their turn is coming up.

You can also have terrible things like...
Dragon surprises PCs.

Dragon solid fogs most of the party on his surprise round. Roll initiative, Dragon goes last. The party responds to the Solid Fog with their turns and maybe attacks the dragon. The dragon full attacks someone or moves and breathes on the party.

Roll initiative. This time the dragon goes first. The dragon full attacks the same character or whoever took damage from the breath without him being able to respond and kills him.


So are people only flat-footed during the very first round in combat?

[Siosilvar]

So are people only flat-footed during the very first round in combat?

That's correct. Sneak attack with ranged weapons is hard(er).

[Undertucker]

Yep, everyone is only flat footed until they first act in the combat. This is why a rogue should generally find a way to hide from their target to get the surprise round when they start the fight and then hopefully win initiative with their high Dex, netting them a standard + full round with a flat footed opponent.

As for ranged sneak attacks...
There is a feat called Ranged Threat that lets you threaten squares to 15ft with a ranged weapon, this should allow flanking and will let you take a single AoO up to 15ft (even if you have more normally).

If you're wanting to be further away you can get the Crossbow Sniper feat to take sneak attack range up to 60' with a crossbow you have Weapon Focus for, plus add 1/2 Dex bonus to damage.

For long range you might want to find a way to benefit from the Sniper's Shot spell (on a wand, or eternal wand, with UMD is quite easy); level 1 spell, swift action cast, lasts 1 round and lets you sneak attack to max range. With this you can hide at 1-2 range increments giving the spotter a distance penalty to see you sniping them, helping you catch them flat footed.

[Slipperychicken]

So are people only flat-footed during the very first round in combat?

People are flat-footed until they take actions, yes.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has Improved Snap Shot which will let you threaten squares within 15 ft. and thus flank/SA with a ranged weapon.

[Piggy Knowles]

A reminder: grease does not immediately make enemies flat-footed.

If you balance without 5 ranks in the Balance skill, you are flat-footed. However, grease only forces someone to balance if they attempt to move while in the area:


A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).

So, if you cast grease on an enemy but they don't try to move, they aren't actually balancing and therefore are not flat-footed.

Marbles are less clear, as the A&EG description says that enemies must make Balance checks if they move or fight in the area. That is a broader set of parameters than the grease spell, so that might work even if they stand still. Note that there is no listed action for spreading marbles, so check with your DM.

[Psyren]

Another easy way for ranged SA in Pathfinder is with one-sided concealment. If you can find a way to gain total concealment yourself while your enemy has none from you, you can SA them. Ninjas can do this via the Greater Invisibility ninja trick; another way is to be an Ifrit with the Firesight feat firing from within smoke. (A smoke bomb, smokestick or eversmoking bottle will work for this.)

[Randomocity132]

Yep, everyone is only flat footed until they first act in the combat. This is why a rogue should generally find a way to hide from their target to get the surprise round when they start the fight and then hopefully win initiative with their high Dex, netting them a standard + full round with a flat footed opponent.

As for ranged sneak attacks...
There is a feat called Ranged Threat that lets you threaten squares to 15ft with a ranged weapon, this should allow flanking and will let you take a single AoO up to 15ft (even if you have more normally).


What book is Ranged Threat from?

And that makes Haley's choice to be a bow-based rogue even more perplexing.

[Fax Celestis]

Pathfinder has Improved Snap Shot which will let you threaten squares within 15 ft. and thus flank/SA with a ranged weapon.

Oh myyyy.

I need to use this with Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker.


As a swift action, you designate a single opponent as the target of this feat. When you are adjacent to the chosen target, you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent.

[Undertucker]

What book is Ranged Threat from?

I believe it's in Dragon Mag' #350, so may be subject to DM approval.

[Randomocity132]

I believe it's in Dragon Mag' #350, so may be subject to DM approval.

Oh, yeah that's a no-go.

Cool feat, but I can see why it didn't make it into any hardback books.

[Psyren]

And that makes Haley's choice to be a bow-based rogue even more perplexing.

She tends to get creamed in melee (even when using a melee weapon,) so it's not that perplexing really.

[gorfnab]

This may be of use to you:
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Two) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a)
Rules of the Game: All About Sneak Attacks (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a)

The Whisperknife (Races of the Wild) prestige class has a 9th level ability that allows it to flank with a ranged weapon.

The Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233) lists some options for a ranged Rogue.

As some have suggested for ranged precision damage a Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103) build is usually better than a Rogue based ranged build.

[RolandDeschain]

Oh, yeah that's a no-go.

Cool feat, but I can see why it didn't make it into any hardback books.

You might find the spell Arrow Mind interesting, but bear in mind that it places you squarely in the middle of melee combat, thus negating one of the biggest advantages of ranged combat.

[bekeleven]

You might find the spell Arrow Mind interesting, but bear in mind that it places you squarely in the middle of melee combat, thus negating one of the biggest advantages of ranged combat.

Yep. An item of continuous Arrow Mind would be 4k slotted (According to the item creation guidelines in the DMG). Allows a bow user to threaten adjacent squares and not provoke AoOs when firing.

[Pickford]

Randomocity132:

To sneak attack:
1) Flank Target(or)
2) Target would be denied Dex to AC

Case 1: Flanking requires

Case 2: Things that normally deny Dex to AC: (absent any special ability to negate this)
1) Flat-Footed (which includes Aware Combatants who have yet to act and Unaware Combatants; also Balancing, Climbing)
2) Attacker being Invisible
3) Target is Blinded
4) Target is Cowering
5) Target is Grappling (But attacker is not)
6) Target is Helpless (such as paralyzed, sleeping, bound, unconcious, or otherwise as your mercy)
7) Target is Pinned
8) Target is Stunned

[Baroknik]

You need to threaten to flank. You can't normally threaten with ranged weapons.

Actually, that's not true... Flanking only requires that a line connecting you and an opponent that threatens pass from one face to the opposite face of the space the target takes up. I'm unsure of how this plays with ranged attacks, but it does allow whips to flank.

The caveat is that while a whip user may flank their opponent, they cannot give a flanking bonus in return to their ally.

Sauce: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm

[Heliomance]

Actually, that's not true... Flanking only requires that a line connecting you and an opponent that threatens pass from one face to the opposite face of the space the target takes up. I'm unsure of how this plays with ranged attacks, but it does allow whips to flank.

The caveat is that while a whip user may flank their opponent, they cannot give a flanking bonus in return to their ally.

Sauce: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm

A whip is not a ranged weapon. It's a reach weapon. You cannot flank with ranged attacks, absent a specific effect that allows you to.

[Baroknik]

I was not saying that ranged weapons could flank, simply pointing out that threatening is not required to flank (at least on the attackers part). If you could make your ranged attack count as a melee attack, then lack of threatened squares would not stop sneak attack dice.

This could be an interesting approach to BSB -- ranged flanks for SA dice.

[Randomocity132]

Actually, that's not true... Flanking only requires that a line connecting you and an opponent that threatens pass from one face to the opposite face of the space the target takes up.
Sauce: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm

That's what I thought allowed bows to be used in combat to sneak attack. You would gain the flanking bonus if you had an ally behind the enemy you were aiming at since HE is threatening the target, but he wouldn't gain the flanking bonus on his attack since YOU are not threatening the target.

Is this not correct?

[Baroknik]

That's what I thought allowed bows to be used in combat to sneak attack. You would gain the flanking bonus if you had an ally behind the enemy you were aiming at since HE is threatening the target, but he wouldn't gain the flanking bonus on his attack since YOU are not threatening the target.

Is this not correct?

No unfortunately flanking explicitly calls out that it must be a melee attack.

However if you can go thrown rather than bow, Bloodstorm Blade 2 could do that for you (swift action: all thrown attacks count as melee attacks this turn).

BSB would only require a one level WB dip to qualify if you already have PBS

[Heliomance]

That's what I thought allowed bows to be used in combat to sneak attack. You would gain the flanking bonus if you had an ally behind the enemy you were aiming at since HE is threatening the target, but he wouldn't gain the flanking bonus on his attack since YOU are not threatening the target.

Is this not correct?

Nope. All that happens is you get an attack penalty for spring into mêlée.