Are Infinite Cantrips Bad?

[gorilla-turtle]

I find it odd that the number of Cantrips one can cast per day does not increase as ability score increases, even though they do not increase in value like most other spells do. In Pathfinder, Cantrips can be cast throughout the entire day at will; how badly abused is this ability, or is this something that could easily be imported to 3.5 with little problem?

The only thing I can think of is that Clerics now have infinite out of combat healing (1 point per action won't do much in battle), but that seems like a trivial concern.

[Talya]

I find it odd that the number of Cantrips one can cast per day does not increase as ability score increases, even though they do not increase in value like most other spells do. In Pathfinder, Cantrips can be cast throughout the entire day at will; how badly abused is this ability, or is this something that could easily be imported to 3.5 with little problem?

The only thing I can think of is that Clerics now have infinite out of combat healing (1 point per action won't do much in battle), but that seems like a trivial concern.

You will note that pathfinder did eliminate the orison "Cure Minor Wounds."

I love at-will cantrips so much...it just feels right for a sorcerer to be able to throw around prestidigitation as much as she wants.

[ryu]

You will note that pathfinder did eliminate the orison "Cure Minor Wounds."

I love at-will cantrips so much...it just feels right for a sorcerer to be able to throw around prestidigitation as much as she wants.

Trivial as that would be as a boon. Healing just isn't really expensive. As a matter of fact it increases the chance that people don't automatically go full healbot with their slots to meet conventional tropes. Why is that good? Cleric as healbot just isn't what most people would call fun.

[Callin]

I agree. At will cantrips should be a thing. Change CMW to Stablize and call it a day.

[BWR]

I got rid of infinite cantrips in my PF game because I got tired of the sorcerer using it for EVERY BLOODY THING SHE COULD POSSIBLY THINK OF!

[Eternis]

And that is why I love the HEDGE WIZZARD (http://merung.net/DandD3.5/3.5%20D&D%20Books/Hedge%20Wizard.pdf).
He is OP :P

[Coidzor]

I agree. At will cantrips should be a thing. Change CMW to Stablize and call it a day.

I would recommend to only do that if you actually have an issue with the ramifications of HP being an inexhaustible resource in the long-term at low levels.


I got rid of infinite cantrips in my PF game because I got tired of the sorcerer using it for EVERY BLOODY THING SHE COULD POSSIBLY THINK OF!

Prestidigitation is known as Least Wish for a reason. XD

[Malimar]

I tried at-will cantrips/orisons in my 3.5e game, leaving CMW in, and discontinued the experiment because I didn't like how it removed HP as a resource to be managed. If I tried it again, I'd do away with CMW.

[Dimers]

"Full caster" is a single class in my 3.X games, with only minimal mechanical differences between (e.g.) priests and shaman and wizards. They basically have bard casting -- small list of spells known, max level 6th.

I give infinite cantrips to full casters at level 8. They're clearly so practiced that the basic practices they learned years ago, they can do as much as they like. I also award infinite 1st-level spells at 14th level and infinite 2nd at 20th.

The infinite spells are a not-insignificant powerup, but between the limited spells known and my double-checking spell picks for abuse, it's not likely to go overboard. I also prevent infinite healing in a different way.

[Chronos]

My group houserules that all cantrips aside from Cure Minor Wounds are at-will, and further that you get access to all of the cantrips on your class list all the time, regardless of spells known or preparation. It hasn't really had any meaningful impact on balance, and does occasionally allow for a fun situation to come up. The only one that really gets spammed is Detect Magic. I'd say it's a good houserule.

[Slipperychicken]

I find that it makes magic-users feel more magical. Also, I think it helps encourage casters to be slightly less miserly about their spells per day.

[AstralFire]

A low-level bard has not lived until they are casting Ghost Sound without any concern for resources whatsoever.

[stack]

I've played low-level pathfinder almost exclusively and it has never been a problem. Heck people still forget they are there after level 2 beyond detect magic.

[lsfreak]

I got rid of infinite cantrips in my PF game because I got tired of the sorcerer using it for EVERY BLOODY THING SHE COULD POSSIBLY THINK OF!
Having prestidigitation for 4 hours a day and at-will are functionally identical, imo. If it becomes that annoying, just write it in that you assume it's being used to assist in various things and otherwise handwave it entirely. No need every time they eat for the sorcerer to make perfectly clear she uses cantrips to move the food onto her fork, wipe her mouth, and call over the waiter.


I tried at-will cantrips/orisons in my 3.5e game, leaving CMW in, and discontinued the experiment because I didn't like how it removed HP as a resource to be managed.
See, I'd rather cut to the chase and give genuine unlimited healing than have the PCs get "unlimited healing" just by hoarding wands of lesser vigor, or worse, going through various hoops to get other methods (like everyone blowing their first feat on Tomb-Tainted Soul). And before you can afford those with some regularity you're solidly in the 1st or 2nd-level rocket tag zone and going into a fight with less than full hit points is tantamount to suicide anyways, slowing pacing to a crawl with a single encounter per day because everyone needs to heal up (which in itself I have no problems with, but if you want it you shouldn't have it relevant the first few levels and then become a total non-issue).

I see nothing wrong with unlimited cantrips.

[The Grue]

I got rid of infinite cantrips in my PF game because I got tired of the sorcerer using it for EVERY BLOODY THING SHE COULD POSSIBLY THINK OF!

Wow. Remind me never to play in anything you GM.

[Chronos]

Quoth AstralFire:

A low-level bard has not lived until they are casting Ghost Sound without any concern for resources whatsoever.
Summon Instrument is even better.

[Rubik]

"Full caster" is a single class in my 3.X games, with only minimal mechanical differences between (e.g.) priests and shaman and wizards. They basically have bard casting -- small list of spells known, max level 6th.

I give infinite cantrips to full casters at level 8. They're clearly so practiced that the basic practices they learned years ago, they can do as much as they like. I also award infinite 1st-level spells at 14th level and infinite 2nd at 20th.

The infinite spells are a not-insignificant powerup, but between the limited spells known and my double-checking spell picks for abuse, it's not likely to go overboard. I also prevent infinite healing in a different way.Yay Versatile Spellcaster?

[gorfnab]

Summon Instrument is even better.
Especially in Pathfinder with the feats Catch Off Guard or Throw Anything.

In a Pathfinder game I played in once casting Guidance on a character before every skill check was called "poking" (basically poke the character and say Guidance).

[The Insanity]

I wouldn't care about the at-will out-of-combat healing for PCs if not for the broader ramifications.

[Crake]

Yay Versatile Spellcaster?

If the free spellcasting works like it does in pathfinder, then the spellslots are still there, they just don't get expended when you cast the spell, but using versatile spellcaster would actually expend your spell slots, so it wouldn't be that great.

[MeeposFire]

Infinite low healing is less of an issue that most think. Heck in 3.X there are at least two ways of doing it just using a straight binder. In any case all it does is that it means you start out nearly all combats at full HP. As a DM this actually has two nice effects.

1. Prolongs the adventuring day. Players are more likely to feel able to continue on when they are not at half life or whatever. Considering that most groups complain about adventuring days being too short rather than too long this can only help (does not eliminate as spell slots are still the most important thing).

2. It makes designing encounters easier. Since you know that the party is going to be at max HP you don't have to try to guess as much where their HP management will be at any given time. You can concentrate fully on their offensive firepower instead.

3. No more hoarding silly low level wands just to fill your HP after combat. Have them buy something interesting instead.

Now while there may be little balance and mechanical reasons to say no some people don't like the thematic changes that this causes. Personally I did not have a problem but some people do.

[Harrow]

I'm throwing my vote in for : it helps, even without limits on CMW.

I feel I should point out that my first experiences with D&D were the Pool of Radiance and Neverwinter Nights games, so I was heartbroken when I learned how slowly hitpoints heal naturally.

If you want some kind of mechanism to wear down you PCs over the course of a day, use something like poison or negative levels.

[MeeposFire]

You could switch to a system of status effects. Be like 4e and make a 1/2 max HP condition called "bloodied" and every time you go from max (or near max) health to bloodied you get a new status effect. They should start minor and be cumulative and be represented as actual injuries to your characters (such as a broken limb or pulled muscle. These conditions could be alleviated by rest, non-unlimited spells, or other special abilities (may not all be magical).

If you know anything about HP historically in D&D then you would know that in all editions HP represents far more than your physical health. in fact at higher levels your physical health is realistically a very small portion, much smaller than most people treat it. By using this system you get the damage balance that HP delivers with consequences that you expect for taking so much damage all the time.

One minus is that it adds another level of complication and another set of effects to keep track of.

[BWR]

Wow. Remind me never to play in anything you GM.

If you think it's fun to annoy the GM, remind me to never let you come to my table.

[Slipperychicken]

If you think it's fun to annoy the GM, remind me to never let you come to my table.

I think it's only fair to ask what the player and PC were doing to earn your ire before jumping to conclusions.

[MonochromeTiger]

If you think it's fun to annoy the GM, remind me to never let you come to my table.

do we get an actual example of what was done or are we just supposed to assume the options of "they went out of their way just to annoy you because reasons and so you cut off an entire mechanic of caster classes in pathfinder" or "you hate people trying to be inventive with what they're given and cut off an entire mechanic of caster classes in pathfinder"?

[Telok]

Bad: Metamagic Reduction.

[The Grue]

If you think it's fun to annoy the GM, remind me to never let you come to my table.

And if your idea of running a game is to knee-jerk ban core class features to spite your players...well, I stand by my previous comment.

[OldTrees1]

Bad: Metamagic Reduction.

Explain. Metamagic Reduction will never drop a higher level spell down to a cantrip and no cantrip is a problem as long as it remains a cantrip(0th level spell in a 0th level slot).

[Greenish]

Dimers: "I removed 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, and prepared casting."
Thread: "Oh, okay."

…

BWR: "I removed infinite cantrips."
Thread: "ARRGHLWARBL!1!11!!!" :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

[Slipperychicken]

Dimers: "I removed 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, and prepared casting."
Thread: "Oh, okay." "Didn't read past 'homebrew spellcasters' kthanks"


Fixed that for 'ya.

[MonochromeTiger]

Dimers: "I removed 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, and prepared casting."
Thread: "Oh, okay."

…

BWR: "I removed infinite cantrips."
Thread: "ARRGHLWARBL!1!11!!!" :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

there's a certain difference between the two. dimers' approach, while I personally wouldn't play it, is clearly defined as an attempt to handle mechanics in a hopefully balanced way. BWR's approach was directly bringing up "a caster used the infinite cantrips repeatedly so I removed them!" without context or a reason WHY he was annoyed to that point.

in short, dimers' approach can be explained clearly before character creation and accounted for. BWR's is hard to explain since simply having infinite cantrips was apparently aggravating enough to cause their removal, so what else will annoy him? what else will be taken away mid-game?

[Coidzor]

Dimers: "I removed 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, and prepared casting."
Thread: "Oh, okay."

…

BWR: "I removed infinite cantrips."
Thread: "ARRGHLWARBL!1!11!!!" :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

Presentation and context are, as always, key.


Bad: Metamagic Reduction.

Yes, Metamagic Reduction is a bit of a problem. As long as one isn't allowing it to be even worse by reducing higher level spells to 0th level slots, there's no issue as far as I'm aware. Even the most hideously metamagic'd cantrip is still a cantrip.

Would you give a few examples of what you're seeing here, please?

[OldTrees1]

BWR's approach was directly bringing up "a caster used the infinite cantrips repeatedly so I removed them!" without context or a reason WHY he was annoyed to that point.

In BWR's defense, he saw a carpenter using a hammer for _everything_ including _sawing_ a board in half. [/analogy] It can get annoying to see someone use the same tool over and over on every problem rather than make use of the diverse tools they have available.

[MonochromeTiger]

In BWR's defense, he saw a carpenter using a hammer for _everything_ including _sawing_ a board in half. [/analogy] It can get annoying to see someone use the same tool over and over on every problem rather than make use of the diverse tools they have available.

if you're given a hammer, and you have fun using the hammer, and the hammer has a built in saw on the back of it making it possible to cut a board, you're going to find chances to use the hammer.

[OldTrees1]

if you're given a hammer, and you have fun using the hammer, and the hammer has a built in saw on the back of it making it possible to cut a board, you're going to find chances to use the hammer.

There was no built in saw in my analogy. It is _possssible_ to saw without a saw blade.

However you are correct that a carpenter with a hammer sees everything as nails, and forgets that saws exist for a reason(sawing).

Now in a Player-DM dynamic where they disagree about whether the "hammer" is being used excessively, ...

[Curmudgeon]

A DM tried infinite cantrips/orisons on our group. I played a Cleric. Creatures with darkvision lost their advantage because Light got cast on every wall in the dungeon. Several of us got Guidance, Resistance, and Virtue before going through every single door. After every Sunder attempt weapons and shields got returned to full HP with Mending. Random garbage and enemy corpses got turned into meals with Purify Food and Drink, meaning we didn't need to carry any rations and had more capacity for loot. With healing being free, I had more spells for utility and battlefield control.

All of that was a noticeable power-up for a Tier 1 character at low levels. But the breaking point came when we found a Troglodyte lair. Instead of trying to fight an overwhelming number (many dozens) of Trogs, or running away, the Druid and my Cleric just took up position at the surface opening and started casting Create Water. We were level 5, and with continuous casting all day created something over 150,000 gallons of water to flood the lair. The bulk of the Troglodytes drowned; most of those who made it to the surface were fatigued and had only their natural weapons. The Ranger and Sorcerer picked them off with bow and crossbow as they popped up, 1-2 at a time. We all immediately shot up to 1 XP below level 7, despite being at very low risk throughout the encounter. (I don't think any of our characters took even a single HP of damage.)

That was the end of our DM's experiment with infinite cantrips/orisons.

[Scow2]

I'd try to find other limits on cantrips/orisons, such as "Each one can only be cast once per hour", or "CMW can only be cast on a given target a number of times per day equal to the caster's (Primary Casting Stat) modifier" - allowing it to be used to stabilize people, or "top up" scratch damage.

[Twilightwyrm]

I have more limited experience with Pathfinder (as I've only been in three games, and only one as a caster), but I'm really liking the Cantrips as at-will abilities. I do admit though, it does encourage a "Cantrips first" attitude towards problem solving. As a Druid, I'm most likely to consider any out-of-combat problem first in terms of whether I can work some Orison magic to solve it, and only afterwards consider whether any of my other abilities might be able to do so. For instance, if I want to create a muddy quagmire as a trap for foes, I'll consider casting Create Water dozens of times, before I'd consider using Soften Earth and Stone once. On the one hand, I can see how this would get annoying for a DM looking for their players to use specific capabilities to solve their puzzles, but I'm not sure this mindset is such a bad thing. Creative use of player capabilities, is something that should be encouraged in players, and this is one way to do so.

[MonochromeTiger]

There was no built in saw in my analogy. It is _possssible_ to saw without a saw blade.

However you are correct that a carpenter with a hammer sees everything as nails, and forgets that saws exist for a reason(sawing).

Now in a Player-DM dynamic where they disagree about whether the "hammer" is being used excessively, ...

I added the saw part mostly to point out that cantrips/orisons, if used creatively, can fit most situations fairly well.


A DM tried infinite cantrips/orisons on our group. I played a Cleric. Creatures with darkvision lost their advantage because Light got cast on every wall in the dungeon. Several of us got Guidance, Resistance, and Virtue before going through every single door. After every Sunder attempt weapons and shields got returned to full HP with Mending. Random garbage and enemy corpses got turned into meals with Purify Food and Drink, meaning we didn't need to carry any rations and had more capacity for loot. With healing being free, I had more spells for utility and battlefield control.

All of that was a noticeable power-up for a Tier 1 character at low levels. But the breaking point came when we found a Troglodyte lair. Instead of trying to fight an overwhelming number (many dozens) of Trogs, or running away, the Druid and my Cleric just took up position at the surface opening and started casting Create Water. We were level 5, and with continuous casting all day created something over 150,000 gallons of water to flood the lair. The bulk of the Troglodytes drowned; most of those who made it to the surface were fatigued and had only their natural weapons. The Ranger and Sorcerer picked them off with bow and crossbow as they popped up, 1-2 at a time. We all immediately shot up to 1 XP below level 7, despite being at very low risk throughout the encounter. (I don't think any of our characters took even a single HP of damage.)

That was the end of our DM's experiment with infinite cantrips/orisons.

the infinite healing issue is why in pathfinder, where the infinite orisons and cantrips mechanic is in place, you don't see a cure spell in your 0 level spells. as for the rest of it solving a "I can use this infinitely to guarantee a win" problem is up to the DM's logic, if someone is planning to spam create water to flood a cave or building put in some natural defenses against things like that. make it so that the cave is shaped so that it isn't possible to flood it from the entrance.

[Curmudgeon]

as for the rest of it solving a "I can use this infinitely to guarantee a win" problem is up to the DM's logic, if someone is planning to spam create water to flood a cave or building put in some natural defenses against things like that. make it so that the cave is shaped so that it isn't possible to flood it from the entrance.
The opening was well above the water table and shielded by an overhang to block incoming precipitation. It was only unlimited magic that caused the problem.

[MonochromeTiger]

The opening was well above the water table and shielded by an overhang to block incoming precipitation. It was only unlimited magic that caused the problem.

and in the hours it took to fully flood the cave the inhabitants were just sitting there until the water got too high to deal with? generally getting flooded a few gallons at a time tends to be noticeable and not a surprise requiring sudden 2 at a time evacuation.

[The Grue]

A DM tried infinite cantrips/orisons on our group. I played a Cleric. Creatures with darkvision lost their advantage because Light got cast on every wall in the dungeon.

Light sheds light as a torch in a 20ft radius from the point where you touch the targeted object. Did the caster take two standard actions every 40ft to recast on the dungeon walls as he went along? You mentioned you were level 5; did the entire excursion fall within the 50-minute duration?


Several of us got Guidance, Resistance, and Virtue before going through every single door.

Guidance, Virtue and Resistance are each a standard action with a flat 1 minute duration. How many characters in your party?


After every Sunder attempt weapons and shields got returned to full HP with Mending.

Mending is limited to a single object of 1lb or less. A buckler for a medium-sized character weight 5lb, and a short sword is 2lb. A dagger is 1lb, so it could be repaired. RAW, the spell doesn't say how much or even if item HP is restored, only that it "repairs small breaks or tears in objects", and further clarifies that metal objects can be repaired only "providing but one break exists".


Random garbage and enemy corpses got turned into meals with Purify Food and Drink, meaning we didn't need to carry any rations and had more capacity for loot.

The spell text says it affects "spoiled, rotten, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated food and water", not random garbage; it would actually have to be foodstuffs. Corpses would probably count, though you'd need to flavor them with Prestidigitation. I'll give you this one, but can anyone honestly say they've ever tracked food rations during a dungeon crawl?


With healing being free, I had more spells for utility and battlefield control.

The average 5th-level PC has, what, 20-25 HP? I'm prepared to give you this one as well, though I'll note that if you're spending six seconds per HP to top off the party you might as well just rest since you're clearly not in any immediate danger.


All of that was a noticeable power-up for a Tier 1 character at low levels. But the breaking point came when we found a Troglodyte lair. Instead of trying to fight an overwhelming number (many dozens) of Trogs, or running away, the Druid and my Cleric just took up position at the surface opening and started casting Create Water. We were level 5, and with continuous casting all day created something over 150,000 gallons of water to flood the lair.

I interrupt only to note that this figure is being created at a rate of 20 gallons every six seconds. 150,000 gallons is after about 12.5 hours of casting unless I've done something horribly wrong. The spell text also says the water is "created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large". I think a cave is a tad larger than three times ten gallons.


The bulk of the Troglodytes drowned; most of those who made it to the surface were fatigued and had only their natural weapons. The Ranger and Sorcerer picked them off with bow and crossbow as they popped up, 1-2 at a time. We all immediately shot up to 1 XP below level 7, despite being at very low risk throughout the encounter. (I don't think any of our characters took even a single HP of damage.)

That was the end of our DM's experiment with infinite cantrips/orisons.

The Troglodytes didn't notice that their lair was slowly flooding, and just sat inside for nearly thirteen solid hours waiting to drown? :smallconfused: Didn't come outside to see where the water was coming from, or investigate the noise(Create Water has a Verbal casting component)?

I think it's fair to say your experiences with infinite cantrips has more to do with your DM not reading the rulebooks than being able to cast 0-level spells at will. :smalltongue:

[Hytheter]

and in the hours it took to fully flood the cave the inhabitants were just sitting there until the water got too high to deal with? generally getting flooded a few gallons at a time tends to be noticeable and not a surprise requiring sudden 2 at a time evacuation.

I'm loving the idea of these Troglodytes just sitting around as their lair slowly fills with water.
"Do you hear dripping?"
"Hey, there's a lot of water on the floor back here..."
"My feet are wet!"
"Hey guys should we do something about this water?"
"Nah I'm sure it will stop eventually."
"Up to our knees now..."
"Huh, up to the waist... but I'm sure it'll stop soon."
"Hey guys its up to my ne-"
"YOU CAN SWIM CAN'T YOU?"
"Ok were're literally drowning now, I think we should check this out."
"Ugh, fine..."

[Greenish]

After every Sunder attempt weapons and shields got returned to full HP with Mending.So that's what the PF peeps were thinking of when they changed Mending's casting time to 10 minutes. I wondered about that.

[Curmudgeon]

and in the hours it took to fully flood the cave the inhabitants were just sitting there until the water got too high to deal with? generally getting flooded a few gallons at a time tends to be noticeable and not a surprise requiring sudden 2 at a time evacuation.
The horizontal tunnels were only roughly level, which meant that a fair stretch of tunnel got filled before any water flowed past the last high spot; at that point a pretty good length of swimming was required to get out. (Note that the standard MM Troglodytes have no ranks in Swim.) Plus at most of the forks all of the water went one way only (the lower path) until that one branch was completely filled, meaning there wasn't any problem on the other branch.

The natural geometry of the lair turned this into an environmental "divide and conquer" scenario.

[GreenZ]

That was the end of our DM's experiment with infinite cantrips/orisons.

Most of the problem seems to be inexperience with the cantrips and/or the fact that you possibly are not using Pathfinder cantrips, which are made to be unlimited. (I cannot tell from your post)

Only 1 Light spell can be active per caster, casting it on every wall leaves you with 1 Light spell on the last wall it was cast on.

Mending takes 10 minutes per 1d4 HP of damage. Far too long to be practical during a scenario without downtime.

Guidance, Resistance, and Virtue only last for 1 minute; not 1 minute/level, a flat 1 minute. That is a handful of rounds before they wear off.

Purify Food and Drink doesn't make non-food into food, it simply makes edible food clean. Also, because most towns have access to this cantrip, edible-food garbage should not exist in most towns or cities in large quantities.



The Create Water trick is good, but also a lesson in smart PC's against NPC's being played stupidly. You have to think rationally for creatures with an intelligence score of 8 and a tribe mentality; 8 intelligence isn't turkey retarded, it's only bellow average. This plus the fact that it would take some time for the water to drown the entire cave of Troglodytes. (A sentence in Purify Food and Water sets the scale nicely: 'One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds.')

If I was the GM I would have had them notice the water after a time (judged by die roll + general perception of Troglodytes) and send a small group to investigate the problem. Either they find the PC's flooding the cavern and alert everyone in their tribe or the tribe take further action after the water gets higher.

The PC's would, if I were the GM, likely end up fighting everything in the cave in larger waves than if they had trounced through the cave but in an advantageous starting position in each fight due to their plan.

[Abithrios]

All of that was a noticeable power-up for a Tier 1 character at low levels. But the breaking point came when we found a Troglodyte lair. Instead of trying to fight an overwhelming number (many dozens) of Trogs, or running away, the Druid and my Cleric just took up position at the surface opening and started casting Create Water. We were level 5, and with continuous casting all day created something over 150,000 gallons of water to flood the lair. The bulk of the Troglodytes drowned; most of those who made it to the surface were fatigued and had only their natural weapons. The Ranger and Sorcerer picked them off with bow and crossbow as they popped up, 1-2 at a time. We all immediately shot up to 1 XP below level 7, despite being at very low risk throughout the encounter. (I don't think any of our characters took even a single HP of damage.)

That was the end of our DM's experiment with infinite cantrips/orisons.

If I were DM, I would probably interpret "at will" to mean "too many times per day to be worth counting", not "repeatable every round nonstop for however many hours (days, weeks, etc) you want". While a single swing of a sword or casting of an orison might take a negligible amount of energy, hundreds or thousands in a row should take some toll.

Also, 150,000 gallons is only a bit over 160 five foot cubes. With 10' ceilings, that would be 8x10 squares, which does not seem that big to me. Based on your other comments, the dungeon was perfectly shaped to allow this trick. While "I slowly flood it with water" could be an overpowered strategy in this exact set of circumstances, more often I think it would be ineffective (if there were any natural drainage to speak of) or harmful (if the enemies all realized they were being flooded out and mounted a unified assault).

[Waker]

Bad? Not necessarily. I will say that certain spells become highly annoying when a player has infinite castings. When I ran a PF game, I eventually banned Detect Magic because the party would use it in literally every situation they found themselves in. It became monumentally annoying when they had to inspect every single item, person, wall, rock in the road... I wasn't bothered by giving away secret information or anything, but I tend to run games from the hip more oft than not, so having to bog down a session by determining what is magical, how strong magically, what school of magic became problematic. They refused to be a bit more judicious with the cantrips usage resulted in me banning it, instead requiring a period of study and the spellcraft check to determine any magical properties.

[Curmudgeon]

Most of the problem seems to be inexperience with the cantrips and/or the fact that you possibly are not using Pathfinder cantrips, which are made to be unlimited. (I cannot tell from your post)
D&D 3.5, with unlimited cantrips/orisons as a house rule; thus the Pathfinder rules aren't applicable.

[Aasimar]

D&D 3.5, with unlimited cantrips/orisons as a house rule; thus the Pathfinder rules aren't applicable.

It would seem that adopting the pathfinder version of the cantrips would be a good follow-up to making them infinite. (since obviously, they had to combat some of the same problems you're having)

[Drachasor]

I don't think there's really a problem with 3.5 infinite cantrips. Though I suppose you could do some tweaks. Make Light only work on up to one item per level at a time perhaps. I don't see a big deal with mending in battle, create water, or other spells either.

[strider24seven]

In my experience, PF's limited amount of material is a fantastic balancing factor when it comes to infinite cantrips.

D&D 3.5 has a lot of downright abusive ways to use infinite cantrips.

For example:
-Bestiary of Krynn's Ambient Tempest, which gives "reverse enlarge/widen/extend," i.e. half-effect for -1 spell level. Which, when combined with various methods of metamagic reduction, allows for at-will metamagic'd first level spells. Like Power Word Pain at lower levels, or Hail of Stone at higher levels, i.e. rocks fall everyone dies, especially with Reserves of Strength.
-Gnome Wizard Substitution gives Silent Image as a cantrip, which, when combined with Shadowcraft Mage, gives at-will 9ths of Evocation, Conjuration (Creation), and Conjuration (Summoning). Or all spells of 8th level or lower if you take Arcane Disciple (Luck). With enough metamagic reduction, at ECL 10, or earlier if you use early entry.

I discovered the latter by accident whilst playing a shadowcraft mage and receiving continually refreshing cantrip slots for a limited duration (24 hours) as a quest reward. Best 24 hours of that little gnomes life.

Edit: Those two examples are far from the only ways to (ab)use infinite cantrips in 3.5; they are just from two of the characters I am playing at the moment.

[The Insanity]

When I ran a PF game, I eventually banned Detect Magic
I made it first level.

[Talya]

At level 1, you get two gallons of water per casting.

An american standard sized bathtub is 42 gallons to the overflow drain.
It would take a level 1 cleric, with unlimited orisions, over 2 minutes to fill a bathtub.

Now, a level 20 cleric can almost fill a bathtub in one casting/6 seconds. However, a small 15x15 room would require 16830 gallons to fill it up to 10' high, assuming there's no place for it to drain.

At level 1, that takes a cleric over 14 hours to do. At level 2, that drops to 7 hours. If you've got two characters casting it, you can cut the time in half. Now, 15x15 (225 square feet) feet isn't as big as one person's bedroom -- it's about the size of a cabin on a cruise ship. A small home is about 1500 square feet. If you're talking about a large lair with a lot of troglodytes, we're talking about several thousand square feet, so at that point, even the level 20 cleric is taking several days to fill it up. Of course, this is ignoring that if this cave was, as you say, well above the water table, then natural leakage in any place that isn't intentionally sealed to contain water would drain faster than you could cast.

Exactly what were these troglodytes doing for several days/weeks while you trickled water into their home? Did you take time off to sleep and eat?

[ElenionAncalima]

Most of my experience gaming has been with Pathfinder and I have never found the infinite cantrips to be bad. They all have pretty strict limitations if you read them carefully...and half the time the party forgets they have them. Sure, you can do some cool things with them, but you have to get pretty creative...and I am always in favor of creativity at the gaming table.

The only spell that is sometimes an issue is detect magic. It can slow down the game, much like searching for traps, when the party checks everything with it...and often it Nancy Screws the GM. Also, I imagine that Cure Minor Wounds would be problematic, but that is removed in Pathfinder.

[Talya]

Meh. A pathfinder drow can get permanent "always on" detect magic with Noble Drow feats. it doesn't slow anything down or hurt the game , it's just a neat detection bonus.

[ryu]

People are always saying you need to completely fill a place with water to do any severe damage. This is nonsense. Do any of you know the horrible things even a few inches deep of water can quickly do to the average modern household? Filling is overkill.

[The Insanity]

A cave is not a modern household.

[Chronos]

Quoth MeeposFire:

Infinite low healing is less of an issue that most think. Heck in 3.X there are at least two ways of doing it just using a straight binder.
At least three: Buer, Zceryll summoning Bralani repeatedly, and Tenebrous with the feat Sacred Healing from Complete Divine to convert turning into healing. All three of those are mid-level at least, though, and two of them require significant resource usage (either spending one of your precious vestige slots on Buer to get nothing but healing, or spending a feat that's only usable when you have Tenebrous bound to heal with him). It's a little different when you can accomplish the same thing from first level, with no resource expenditure at all beyond "someone in the party play a cleric or druid".

[ryu]

A cave is not a modern household.

True there's no wiring or easily destroyed dry wall. You still have to worry about erosion of soft rock types, massive bacteria and mold growth, possible danger of many items or even people getting rinsed into the lowest part of the cave depending on amount and force of water... Need I go on? Water is not harmless beyond simply causing drowning dang it.

[Talya]

People are always saying you need to completely fill a place with water to do any severe damage. This is nonsense. Do any of you know the horrible things even a few inches deep of water can quickly do to the average modern household? Filling is overkill.

Defeating the residence is not the challenge. The occupants are.

[Feint's End]

At least three: Buer, Zceryll summoning Bralani repeatedly, and Tenebrous with the feat Sacred Healing from Complete Divine to convert turning into healing. All three of those are mid-level at least, though, and two of them require significant resource usage (either spending one of your precious vestige slots on Buer to get nothing but healing, or spending a feat that's only usable when you have Tenebrous bound to heal with him). It's a little different when you can accomplish the same thing from first level, with no resource expenditure at all beyond "someone in the party play a cleric or druid".

Or you know ... you could always use a Crusader and go stab some trees with your diminutive knife .... or your horses.

[ryu]

Defeating the residence is not the challenge. The occupants are.

Store your created waters magically and dump it out into the cave. If you we're there for treasure you stay and ambush people as they run out. If you're just doing pest control though? Just teleport out as the place is now unlivable and will be empty within the week.

[Kudaku]

Overall I'm a fan of infinite Cantrips/Orisons. It's a neat trick that lets spellcasters feel a little more "magical". Just watch out for possible abuse (Fell Drain Acid Splash) or unintended side effects like the Arcane Mark Spellstrike Magus.

[danzibr]

Were I DM, I would've had some river at the back of the cave. Not that I try to shut down my player's efforts, but I see that as abuse of DM generosity. A couple castings of Mending, a couple dozen or hundred of Light and CMW and Detect Magic, yeah, but several thousand of Create Water? I would not reward my players for that, and I consider myself quite lenient.

EDIT: I totally forgot to mention that I'm currently running a 3.5 campaign with unlimited 0th's and it's a nice convenience.

[Curmudgeon]

However, a small 15x15 room would require 16830 gallons to fill it up to 10' high, assuming there's no place for it to drain.

At level 1, that takes a cleric over 14 hours to do. At level 2, that drops to 7 hours. If you've got two characters casting it, you can cut the time in half. Now, 15x15 (225 square feet) feet isn't as big as one person's bedroom -- it's about the size of a cabin on a cruise ship.
From Cruise Critic: Your Ultimate Cruise Guide (http://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=77):

The studio cabins on Norwegian Epic are the most famous example of this: the 100-square-foot staterooms each contain a full-size bed, nifty lighting effects and a large round window that looks out into the corridor. You're seriously overestimating the space needed for creatures where the adults barely reach 5' high. Why would such creatures require 10' ceilings, laboriously carved out of the Earth, when modern humans fit comfortably in 7' (minimum building code) or 8' (standard) rooms? A 5½' ceiling in a corridor no more than 3' wide would be plenty for Troglodytes. (For perspective, U.S. Fire Codes stipulate a 3' wide access through hallways because that's sufficient room for a couple of paramedics maneuvering a gurney containing a patient.)

You shouldn't confuse D&D grid sizes with actual space requirements.

[jedipotter]

In Pathfinder, Cantrips can be cast throughout the entire day at will; how badly abused is this ability, or is this something that could easily be imported to 3.5 with little problem?


For the Core Cantrips you won't notice much at all. Though you still might want to use the Pathfinder list, not the 3.5E one. But where the problem really starts is all the Cantrips beyond core. You might have a problem with Caltrops or Launch Bolt. So you might need to make a couple cantrips first level.

[stack]

Overall I'm a fan of infinite Cantrips/Orisons. It's a neat trick that lets spellcasters feel a little more "magical". Just watch out for possible abuse (Fell Drain Acid Splash) or unintended side effects like the Arcane Mark Spellstrike Magus.

Arcane mark spellstrike magus is hardly an issue though. One extra attack adding a -2 to all attacks on a medium BAB chassis? Sounds like 3.5 flurry of blows, without scaling. And you have to make a concentration check to cast defensively or lose the bonus attack and still take the penalty. The concentration checks are not trivial at low levels where the trick is the most useful either, especially on a feat-starved dex-magus that can't afford combat casting yet.

[archon_huskie]

The opening was well above the water table and shielded by an overhang to block incoming precipitation. It was only unlimited magic that caused the problem.

Geologically speaking, how would the cave have formed then?

[BWR]

In BWR's defense, he saw a carpenter using a hammer for _everything_ including _sawing_ a board in half. [/analogy] It can get annoying to see someone use the same tool over and over on every problem rather than make use of the diverse tools they have available.

Pretty much this. The hammer in this case Prestidigitation.
To bring the analogy to its absurd and only marignally exaggerated conclusion:

GM: "You see a nail."
Player: "I use my hamer to hammer that nail"
GM: "fine"
Player: "I find other nails that need hammering."
GM: "ok"
Player: "I use my hammer in place of a screwdriver"
GM: "Uh, ok"
Player: "I use my hammer to scratch my back"
GM: "Fine, whatever"
Player: "I use my hammer to knock on the door"
GM: "Seriously?"
Player: "I use my hammer to iron my clothes, to tap people on the shoulder, to stir my soup, to chop firewood, to open doors, to pull on my boots, to comb my hair, to perfume myself, to scrape myself clean, to flavor my food, to mend my clothes to.."
GM: "You know what? Here's a proper tool belt. And the landlord is getting tired of hearing that hammer all the time."

[Kudaku]

Arcane mark spellstrike magus is hardly an issue though. One extra attack adding a -2 to all attacks on a medium BAB chassis? Sounds like 3.5 flurry of blows, without scaling. And you have to make a concentration check to cast defensively or lose the bonus attack and still take the penalty. The concentration checks are not trivial at low levels where the trick is the most useful either, especially on a feat-starved dex-magus that can't afford combat casting yet.

I don't mind the result, it's more that I have a bit of an issue with the route that is taken to get there - Arcane Mark is clearly not intended to be a combat touch spell.

Personally I solved this by not allowing Arcane Mark to qualify for Spellstrike and adding Brand to the magus spell list.

[The Insanity]

At least three: Buer, Zceryll summoning Bralani repeatedly, and Tenebrous with the feat Sacred Healing from Complete Divine to convert turning into healing. All three of those are mid-level at least, though, and two of them require significant resource usage (either spending one of your precious vestige slots on Buer to get nothing but healing, or spending a feat that's only usable when you have Tenebrous bound to heal with him). It's a little different when you can accomplish the same thing from first level, with no resource expenditure at all beyond "someone in the party play a cleric or druid".
Four. Dragon Shaman aura. Vigor something or somesuch.


True there's no wiring or easily destroyed dry wall. You still have to worry about erosion of soft rock types, massive bacteria and mold growth, possible danger of many items or even people getting rinsed into the lowest part of the cave depending on amount and force of water... Need I go on? Water is not harmless beyond simply causing drowning dang it.
Caves are created by water flowing through them for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Getting them wet hardly does anything.

[Talya]

From Cruise Critic: Your Ultimate Cruise Guide (http://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=77):
You're seriously overestimating the space needed for creatures where the adults barely reach 5' high. Why would such creatures require 10' ceilings, laboriously carved out of the Earth, when modern humans fit comfortably in 7' (minimum building code) or 8' (standard) rooms? A 5½' ceiling in a corridor no more than 3' wide would be plenty for Troglodytes. (For perspective, U.S. Fire Codes stipulate a 3' wide access through hallways because that's sufficient room for a couple of paramedics maneuvering a gurney containing a patient.)

You shouldn't confuse D&D grid sizes with actual space requirements.

You're quibbling over 3 feet in height, when you're still talking about standing there for a couple casting cantrips nonstop. Taking 30% off the time doesn't improve the scenario noticeably.

Also, those cabins are incredibly small.

I've been on 5 cruises on Carnival and Royal Caribbean cruise lines. The smallest stateroom I've seen is the carnival standard at 185 square feet.

[The Grue]

True there's no wiring or easily destroyed dry wall. You still have to worry about erosion of soft rock types, massive bacteria and mold growth, possible danger of many items or even people getting rinsed into the lowest part of the cave depending on amount and force of water... Need I go on? Water is not harmless beyond simply causing drowning dang it.

I'll give you the last one, but I don't think erosion and bacteria/mold growth are likely to occur over the timescale of the average dungeon crawl, do you?


Pretty much this. The hammer in this case Prestidigitation.
To bring the analogy to its absurd and only marignally exaggerated conclusion:

GM: "You see a nail."
Player: "I use my hamer to hammer that nail"
GM: "fine"
Player: "I find other nails that need hammering."
GM: "ok"
Player: "I use my hammer in place of a screwdriver"
GM: "Uh, ok"
Player: "I use my hammer to scratch my back"
GM: "Fine, whatever"
Player: "I use my hammer to knock on the door"
GM: "Seriously?"
Player: "I use my hammer to iron my clothes, to tap people on the shoulder, to stir my soup, to chop firewood, to open doors, to pull on my boots, to comb my hair, to perfume myself, to scrape myself clean, to flavor my food, to mend my clothes to.."
GM: "You know what? Here's a proper tool belt. And the landlord is getting tired of hearing that hammer all the time."

This isn't really an issue with being able to cast cantrips at-will. With a duration of one hour, all that stuff can be done with a single casting. Alternatively, learn to say "You can't do that". I think chopping firewood at least might be beyond the scope of the spell, and you could make the same case for tapping people on the shoulder. The rest? Straight out of the spell description. So why not just ban Prestidigitation? And what was the "proper tool belt" you gave your player in exchange for arbitrarily taking away a class feature in the middle of a session?

I'm assuming this is you exaggerating to make your argument more sympathetic. Of course, if you're not and this player was actually sitting there listing off, one after another, all the things they were doing with Prestidigitation, I'm curious why you let them monopolize the game session instead of going "Uh-huh, that's nice, what's [player to your left] doing?"

[ryu]

Four. Dragon Shaman aura. Vigor something or somesuch.


Caves are created by water flowing through them for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Getting them wet hardly does anything.

And liveable caves dried out long before they were inhabited by most creatures. The fact that you and all the things around you are the long processed aftermath of exploding stars doesn't make exploding stars not deadly.

Grue: Oh you'd be surprised. The mold and bacteria can happen over the course of hours. Depending on cave material erosion could be nearly immediately noticeable.

[The Insanity]

And liveable caves dried out long before they were inhabited by most creatures.
... so? Where did I say they didn't? What is your point? :smallconfused: Rock is rock. A little water won't do shiet.

[BWR]

This isn't really an issue with being able to cast cantrips at-will. With a duration of one hour, all that stuff can be done with a single casting. Alternatively, learn to say "You can't do that". I think chopping firewood at least might be beyond the scope of the spell, and you could make the same case for tapping people on the shoulder. The rest? Straight out of the spell description. So why not just ban Prestidigitation? And what was the "proper tool belt" you gave your player in exchange for arbitrarily taking away a class feature in the middle of a session?

I'm assuming this is you exaggerating to make your argument more sympathetic. Of course, if you're not and this player was actually sitting there listing off, one after another, all the things they were doing with Prestidigitation, I'm curious why you let them monopolize the game session instead of going "Uh-huh, that's nice, what's [player to your left] doing?"

It was not just at will spells, it was Prestidigitaion specifically being used for everything. I split Prestidigitation into several different, individually more powerful cantrips to do what the player was trying to get away with using P for. And as the post you just quoted said, not exaggerated so much as condensed. It's hard to get anywhere with RPing if the player always brings up using P for something when I give him the spotlight (I don't ignore players if I can help it). After several sessions of hearing about P a dozen times or so per session, I got tired of it. I was wary of at will abilities for casters when they were introduced in PF and the way they were handled in game only validated my fears, so I removed the at will bit and introduced the 3+mod variant, which still leaves plenty of 0th level spells but did make the player think a bit about what he wanted to use his spells for.
The cleric in the group wasn't quite so bad but that's mostly because he didn't have P.

Edit: and before anyone starts making comments about 'just fix Prestidigitation and leave at will', no. I've said it before and I'll epmhasize it: it was not just P, it was at will, too.

[Drachasor]

It was not just at will spells, it was Prestidigitaion specifically being used for everything. I split Prestidigitation into several different, individually more powerful cantrips to do what the player was trying to get away with using P for. And as the post you just quoted said, not exaggerated so much as condensed. It's hard to get anywhere with RPing if the player always brings up using P for something when I give him the spotlight (I don't ignore players if I can help it). After several sessions of hearing about P a dozen times or so per session, I got tired of it. I was wary of at will abilities for casters when they were introduced in PF and the way they were handled in game only validated my fears, so I removed the at will bit and introduced the 3+mod variant, which still leaves plenty of 0th level spells but did make the player think a bit about what he wanted to use his spells for.
The cleric in the group wasn't quite so bad but that's mostly because he didn't have P.

Edit: and before anyone starts making comments about 'just fix Prestidigitation and leave at will', no. I've said it before and I'll epmhasize it: it was not just P, it was at will, too.

I think we'd actually like to hear examples of what you mean by "everything".

[ryu]

... so? Where did I say they didn't? What is your point? :smallconfused: Rock is rock. A little water won't do shiet.

Rock is quite literally one of the most vulnerable things to water around outside of fire and man made structures. This goes double if we're talking about one of the softer varieties, but that's not strictly necessary.

[Calimehter]

Defeating the residence is not the challenge. The occupants are.

Well, you could be forcing the trogs to spend epic amounts of time filling out insurance paperwork and arguing with their provider, especially if they live in a flood plain and/or didn't pay extra for the 'adventurer' coverage rider. It would almost be like forcing them to go on a sidequest instead of furthering their evil schemes. So it sorta counts.

I think the next time I play d20 Modern, I'm hijacking a Culligan truck to 'defeat' our next set of underground villians.

[OldTrees1]

Pretty much this. The hammer in this case Prestidigitation.

Ah, Least Wish. In the hands of some it becomes a spell list of its own. (Did you know it can grant temporary Immunity to Lava?)

[Somensjev]

(Did you know it can grant temporary Immunity to Lava?)

i need to know how this happens :smallconfused:

[Slipperychicken]

Exactly what were these troglodytes doing for several days/weeks while you trickled water into their home? Did you take time off to sleep and eat?

Perhaps they operated as if controlled by awful video-game AI, whose survival instincts begin and end at "see enemy, kill enemy".


Pretty much this. The hammer in this case Prestidigitation.
To bring the analogy to its absurd and only marignally exaggerated conclusion:

You could probably have done well by just restricting the uses to those outlined in the spell description, and having others fail.

[Vedhin]

-Bestiary of Krynn's Ambient Tempest, which gives "reverse enlarge/widen/extend," i.e. half-effect for -1 spell level. Which, when combined with various methods of metamagic reduction, allows for at-will metamagic'd first level spells. Like Power Word Pain at lower levels, or Hail of Stone at higher levels, i.e. rocks fall everyone dies, especially with Reserves of Strength.


Someday, somehow, I am going to do this.


i need to know how this happens :smallconfused:

Check my sig.

[Dalebert]

Ah, Least Wish. In the hands of some it becomes a spell list of its own. (Did you know it can grant temporary Immunity to Lava?)

Let me guess. This has something to do with the obvious violations of thermodynamics it seems capable of in terms of setting up to 1 lb of material to a specific temperature for the duration, e.g. lots of infinite heat sinks in a pool of lava with large but limited heat.

I remember when the Dragon magazine came out that introduced cantrips. They were specifically limited in such a way as to never provide a use in combat. They were just for fun. At some point they decided to change them into half-level spells, limit their usage but make them mildly useful beyond how they were originally intended.

They were more limited but a lot more fun. Anyone remember bee and mouse? Remember scratch, hiccup, and fart? I think the latter might have been a homebrew.

[GreenZ]

3.5 Prestidigitation Lava Immunity: "Dampen: You leave an object damp to the touch for 1 hour. Damp objects have fire resistance 2 while the effect lasts." + "An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma."

And like I said before. 3.5 cantrips are not made to be at-will, making them at-will will introduce problems. Pathfinder cantrips are specifically not the same as the 3.5 ones because they are meant to be at-will. Simply use the Pathfinder cantrips or adopt their style of changes to fix your cantrip abuse 'problems'.

[Dimers]

Dimers: "I removed 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells, and prepared casting."
Thread: "Oh, okay."

…

BWR: "I removed infinite cantrips."
Thread: "ARRGHLWARBL!1!11!!!" :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

*snerk!* :smallbiggrin:

[Talya]

I use this optional 3rd party handbook for dealing with lava, which fixes the prestidigitation issue:

Fire & Brimstone: A comprehensive guide to lava, magma, and superheated rock (http://www.scratchfactory.com/Resources/LavaBanners/LavaRules.pdf)

[Zirconia]

3.5 Prestidigitation Lava Immunity: "Dampen: You leave an object damp to the touch for 1 hour. Damp objects have fire resistance 2 while the effect lasts." + "An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma."

The problem with that isn't unlimited Prestidigitation, it is the bad wording on lava/magma immunity. I can dampen my boots with a waterskin. And even with limited cantrips, it is likely that someone will have Prestidigitation memorized, as it is one of the more generally handy cantrips.

And to those folks worried about someone using metamagic reducers to reduce higher level spells to 0th level and getting them at-will, is there anywhere in the system that says all spells reduced to 0th level become cantrips? It would not be an unreasonable rules interpretation to say that while all cantrips are (natively) 0th level spells, not all spells reduced to 0th level are cantrips. And while it would be a house rule, I think it would also be a reasonable one to say that if you raise the level of a cantrip via metamagic, it is no longer unlimited use.

Incidently, I am in a campaign with unlimited 1/round out-of-combat healing, and it does seem to work out fine. As was mentioned, it makes it easier for the DM to balance encounters. It is also still possible to provide time constraints in a particular scenario if he wants it, so we don't get time to do it.

[Talya]

And to those folks worried about someone using metamagic reducers to reduce higher level spells to 0th level and getting them at-will, is there anywhere in the system that says all spells reduced to 0th level become cantrips? It would not be an unreasonable rules interpretation to say that while all cantrips are (natively) 0th level spells, not all spells reduced to 0th level are cantrips. And while it would be a house rule, I think it would also be a reasonable one to say that if you raise the level of a cantrip via metamagic, it is no longer unlimited use.


Cantrips/Orisons are 0th level spells. That's it.
If the spell is 0th level, it's a cantrip/orison. If you raise it to a 1st level spell with metamagic, it is no longer a cantrip/orison, as it's no longer a 0th level spell. If you manage to lower the level of a spell to 0th, then it becomes a cantrip/orison.

[Coidzor]

Cantrips/Orisons are 0th level spells. That's it.
If the spell is 0th level, it's a cantrip/orison. If you raise it to a 1st level spell with metamagic, it is no longer a cantrip/orison, as it's no longer a 0th level spell. If you manage to lower the level of a spell to 0th, then it becomes a cantrip/orison.

The principle problem with lowering higher level spells to cantrip level is metamagic reduction itself, since it doesn't need to be infinite to be problematic, and highlighting infinite cantrips as the primary issue seems like kind of a red herring. :smallconfused:


So that's what the PF peeps were thinking of when they changed Mending's casting time to 10 minutes. I wondered about that.

Also when they changed the weight limit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm) to scale (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mending), thus creating that use for the spell for non-fine/diminutive creatures.


A cave is not a modern household.

Nor do they form without some form of drainage without some special wind conditions or the intervention of some creature. Granted, if it's artificial, cave usually isn't quite the term anyway...


For the Core Cantrips you won't notice much at all. Though you still might want to use the Pathfinder list, not the 3.5E one. But where the problem really starts is all the Cantrips beyond core. You might have a problem with Caltrops or Launch Bolt. So you might need to make a couple cantrips first level.

To my knowledge, Launch Bolt is no more problematic than ray of frost or acid splash, unless you're allowing over-sized bolts to be created out of nothing or something similarly already suspect. :smallconfused:

[Talya]

The principle problem with lowering higher level spells to cantrip level is metamagic reduction itself, since it doesn't need to be infinite to be problematic, and highlighting infinite cantrips as the primary issue seems like kind of a red herring. :smallconfused:



Agreed. I'm just defining cantrip for someone who wondered if metamagicked cantrips would be considered cantrips.

I am having fun in pathfinder with the trait "magical linneage" applied to a cantrip, "Slapping hand" (3rd party force spell that does 1 point of force damage at range) combined with Toppling Spell +1 metamagic. It remains a cantrip, so she slaps people at range and trips them without limit.

[Abithrios]

Bad? Not necessarily. I will say that certain spells become highly annoying when a player has infinite castings. When I ran a PF game, I eventually banned Detect Magic because the party would use it in literally every situation they found themselves in. It became monumentally annoying when they had to inspect every single item, person, wall, rock in the road... I wasn't bothered by giving away secret information or anything, but I tend to run games from the hip more oft than not, so having to bog down a session by determining what is magical, how strong magically, what school of magic became problematic. They refused to be a bit more judicious with the cantrips usage resulted in me banning it, instead requiring a period of study and the spellcraft check to determine any magical properties.

The major issue here sounds like one of streamlining play. A fairly predefined routine could be helpful. For example, when entering a room with enemies and loot:

1: open door
2: overcome obvious challenges (enemies, etc.)
3: PCs gather loot, search for non-obvious challenges
4: caster says "detect magic"
5: DM tells what is magical and lets players roll spellcraft to identify stuff

Outside of combat, the exact round-by-round breakdown of what find out at what time is not important, so can be glossed over. In combat, the other players would be within their rights to throw the Core Rulebook at the caster who is wasting time (in game time and real time) trying to identify all the magical auras in the room before defeating the monsters in the room.

In my 3.5 game, we allow magic item identification with only a spellcraft check. I do not remember the DC we use, but the result is that we generally know what magic items we find without too much expense or investment. While we may have missed out on some fun activating items blindly, we have avoided the trouble of keeping track of tons of unidentified items and the frustration of finding out later that we had just the tool we needed for a difficult or costly encounter, but had no idea what it was at the time.

[Fitz10019]

If you say Detect(ing) Magic is a trance-like state that makes you flat-footed, it wouldn't be spammed very much.

(and it carries an initiative penalty, and it takes a round or two to tune out your own magical aura before you see anything else, and you are deaf while using it, and your body must be perfectly rigid so your party-mates have to direct you like an over-sized inconveniently shaped bulls-eye lantern, and it makes you smell like bacon...)

[The Grue]

It was not just at will spells, it was Prestidigitaion specifically being used for everything. I split Prestidigitation into several different, individually more powerful cantrips to do what the player was trying to get away with using P for. And as the post you just quoted said, not exaggerated so much as condensed. It's hard to get anywhere with RPing if the player always brings up using P for something when I give him the spotlight (I don't ignore players if I can help it). After several sessions of hearing about P a dozen times or so per session, I got tired of it. I was wary of at will abilities for casters when they were introduced in PF and the way they were handled in game only validated my fears, so I removed the at will bit and introduced the 3+mod variant, which still leaves plenty of 0th level spells but did make the player think a bit about what he wanted to use his spells for.
The cleric in the group wasn't quite so bad but that's mostly because he didn't have P.

Edit: and before anyone starts making comments about 'just fix Prestidigitation and leave at will', no. I've said it before and I'll epmhasize it: it was not just P, it was at will, too.

It may very well be that the problem was not limited to Prestidigitation but Prestidigitation is the only example you're offering for discussion. I can't speak for anyone else in this thread, but that's the reason I'm focusing on it.

If you want to talk about the reasons at-will casting is itself broken, present some more examples and I'd be thrilled to have a comprehensive discussion. But if all you're going to present is Prestidigitation, then that's all I'm going to talk about no matter how many times you say "Seriously guys, just trust me".

[Curmudgeon]

Geologically speaking, how would the cave have formed then?
Wind erosion formed the chamber below the big rock overhang, but most of it was excavated. It was probably dug by miners and then abandoned, later to be used and modified by the Troglodytes. Trogs like to live near Humanoid settlements (for raiding opportunities), and most such settlements aren't near naturally-occurring caverns.

[Coidzor]

Agreed. I'm just defining cantrip for someone who wondered if metamagicked cantrips would be considered cantrips.

I am having fun in pathfinder with the trait "magical linneage" applied to a cantrip, "Slapping hand" (3rd party force spell that does 1 point of force damage at range) combined with Toppling Spell +1 metamagic. It remains a cantrip, so she slaps people at range and trips them without limit.

Ah, got'cha. :smallsmile:

Indeed, while problematic in general, metamagic reduction does offer up a number of fun little things like that. Even better if you could refluff it to being a flick on the nose that knocks people onto their butts. XD

[TuggyNE]

Rock is quite literally one of the most vulnerable things to water around outside of fire and man made structures. This goes double if we're talking about one of the softer varieties, but that's not strictly necessary.

That's not saying much, ryu, you're killing us here with overestimation. "Rock is teh vulnerables to water! Why, if you leave it alone with water running over it for a coupla hundred thousand years, IT ALL DISAPPEARS!"

Sure, OK, you do that. I'll be over here clearing out a dungeon in less than a day. Or else using up all my regular spell slots, resting, and doing it all over again.

[ryu]

That's not saying much, ryu, you're killing us here with overestimation. "Rock is teh vulnerables to water! Why, if you leave it alone with water running over it for a coupla hundred thousand years, IT ALL DISAPPEARS!"

Sure, OK, you do that. I'll be over here clearing out a dungeon in less than a day. Or else using up all my regular spell slots, resting, and doing it all over again.

You are aware that there are vastly different types of rock right? Some of them like weakly cemented sandstone are so weak and soft that you can crush them in your hands. Need I get out the middle-school science level hardness data sets and show a few of the other weak ones? If I sound a bit more chaffed than usual it's because I'm really not a fan of being accused of not doing basic fact checking by people while also having my entire position exaggerated to appear stupid and simple.

[The Grue]

You are aware that there are vastly different types of rock right? Some of them like weakly cemented sandstone are so weak and soft that you can crush them in your hands.

Then what do you need water for?

[ryu]

Then what do you need water for?

Breaking it safely and at a distance without direct involvement. It also doesn't have to be that extremely weak of a rock type to be pertinent on the erosion topic.

[TuggyNE]

You are aware that there are vastly different types of rock right? Some of them like weakly cemented sandstone are so weak and soft that you can crush them in your hands.

Sure. I've seen degenerated granite (DG) around here that you can squish with your foot and it'll come apart into coarse grains about twice as large as normal sand. You might even, conceivably, be able to cover most of a cave's walls with that, although DG at that end is (to my knowledge) mostly on the surface after many years of erosion and lichen/plant degeneration, rather than underground and structural. What I can't figure out, though, is how you'd have a cave that a) has been lived in for years, and b) is so vulnerable to water that a slow flood not only dissolves the stone wall surfaces, but collapses the entire cave on its inhabitants.

(In point of fact, DG doesn't really dissolve well in anything less than a concentrated stream of water directed on it; if you leave a chunk of DG in water for a day, it's still a chunk of DG, just with maybe a few extra pieces fallen off. So yeah, if you were doing hydraulic mining you'd have something to go with, but create water is far too slow and undirected for that.)

[MonochromeTiger]

You are aware that there are vastly different types of rock right? Some of them like weakly cemented sandstone are so weak and soft that you can crush them in your hands. Need I get out the middle-school science level hardness data sets and show a few of the other weak ones? If I sound a bit more chaffed than usual it's because I'm really not a fan of being accused of not doing basic fact checking by people while also having my entire position exaggerated to appear stupid and simple.

don't take it personally, intentionally hyping up what the other person says to ridiculous levels to make their point look invalid is a forum past-time.

I think in this case it's assumed that the cave is made out of one of the harder and more structurally sound types of stone. personally I'm still curious as to the exact layout of the cave that the inhabitants didn't notice a huge amount of water until they were drowning and how at no point the water didn't simply even out and start spilling outside of the cave instead of filling the entire thing. heck if everything is downhill from the entrance they would have even more reason to notice the water and send a sizable group to investigate.

on metamagic feats my group just doesn't allow them on cantrips or orisons, really with most of the simpler ones there's no point to them and with the damage dealing ones all they really are is a means of attacking normally that doesn't risk being in melee or running out of ammo, and even then it's a way that does less damage than most normal weapon attacks and is only used once a round.

I personally feel that a big reason why cantrips and orisons are balanced in pathfinder is because they're set up with infinite uses in mind and there are several higher level spells that simply outperform them. can repeated use be annoying? yes, but that doesn't mean the only option is to remove the unlimited uses. simply discouraging the overuse of an ability or agreeing that use of a specific cantrip is just expected to happen (for instance it could be pretty simple to assume a group's spellcaster will run detect magic when they do a perception check to look around a room) will do wonders for stopping that constant "I use detect magic". if it's a cantrip that is done for in character comfort or ease like using spark to start the campfire instead of using personal resources just ask the players if they want to use that as the default and run with it.

[ryu]

Sure. I've seen degenerated granite (DG) around here that you can squish with your foot and it'll come apart into coarse grains about twice as large as normal sand. You might even, conceivably, be able to cover most of a cave's walls with that, although DG at that end is (to my knowledge) mostly on the surface after many years of erosion and lichen/plant degeneration, rather than underground and structural. What I can't figure out, though, is how you'd have a cave that a) has been lived in for years, and b) is so vulnerable to water that a slow flood not only dissolves the stone wall surfaces, but collapses the entire cave on its inhabitants.

(In point of fact, DG doesn't really dissolve well in anything less than a concentrated stream of water directed on it; if you leave a chunk of DG in water for a day, it's still a chunk of DG, just with maybe a few extra pieces fallen off. So yeah, if you were doing hydraulic mining you'd have something to go with, but create water is far too slow and undirected for that.)

Who said anything about the entire bloody cave collapsing? You don't need total destruction of the entire living area with no trace but rubble to render it unlivable in short order Tuggy. Would you like me to find you some video of the horrors people come back to find in a completely structurally sound house that was partially submerged?

[TuggyNE]

don't take it personally, intentionally hyping up what the other person says to ridiculous levels to make their point look invalid is a forum past-time.

Depending on exactly how you do it (and who's talking about it), it's called satire, reductio ad absurdum, or misrepresentation, and has a long and (sort of) glorious history. For example, Jonathan Swift did nothing but, and is now assigned in English classes.

I do try to make my satire reasonably on point and minimize mean-spiritedness, though, so if I mess that up, go ahead and call me out on it. But if I'm making an actually-invalid point look invalid through satire, well, them's the breaks.


Who said anything about the entire bloody cave collapsing? You don't need total destruction of the entire living area with no trace but rubble to render it unlivable in short order Tuggy. Would you like me to find you some video of the horrors people come back to find in a completely structurally sound house that was partially submerged?

Oh, do you want it to be super unpleasant to live in? Sure, no problem, that's easy. Go ahead and make them find a new home at their leisure.

… actually killing its inhabitants is a far sight more impressive, and is the point in question. Obviously, killing dozens of over-level enemies with one cantrip used endlessly would be rather impressive, but making them move out is … pretty much par for the course. With a day of manual labor, you could probably do that to most lowish-level creatures in D&D or elsewhere, no spells required.

[The Insanity]

Trogs have 8 Int. I don't think they're stupid enough to live in a cave that might collapse on their heads any moment.
Also, again, caves are not houses.
Also, the point is to kill the inhabitants, not to make them move lairs.

[ryu]

That was brought up as the alternative. If you want them dead you now have a process of forcing them out and directly into ambush tactics at your leisure. If they don't ever come out they actually will be drowned. If they do though? The mage casting all the water doesn't have to be in easy view of the entrance from the point of view of those inside and neither does the party. I think a single resource with no cost to use completely changing the way encounters work for that day to suit the party is nothing to sneeze at no?

If you just want them gone, but don't want to spend actual effort flood and skip out.

Insanity: Again no one in favor of the water plan was even suggesting that.

[TuggyNE]

That was brought up as the alternative. If you want them dead you now have a process of forcing them out and directly into ambush tactics at your leisure.

OK, cool. At best, you turn it from "deathtrap, the trogs will kill you if you go inside" to "pick them off as they exit, disordered, and hope your clever trick can even the odds".

But that's not what was stated: the stated example had most of the trogs drowning, for some reason, and then the rest came out all willy-nilly and were picked off.

Whether trogs are actually stupid enough to succumb to even the more limited ambush tactic depends, I suppose; most competent leaders would think "someone is flooding us, keep together at the exit" and there's your advantage gone already.

[awa]

It looks like this particular cave had near perfect conditions for being flooded
sufficiently tiny that it could be done with out spending days working. Formed in such a way that the entire thing could be flooded with out the trogs becoming aware of it. No natural drains of any kind. and trogs who just sit in a single room ignoring any funny sounds like rushing water.

This specific example is sufficiently unlikely if not contrived that i feel it has no real weight on the discussion.

[The Insanity]

It was a "rocks fall, everyone dies" "water flows, everyone drowns", but reversed (not done on players, but BY players).

[ryu]

OK, cool. At best, you turn it from "deathtrap, the trogs will kill you if you go inside" to "pick them off as they exit, disordered, and hope your clever trick can even the odds".

But that's not what was stated: the stated example had most of the trogs drowning, for some reason, and then the rest came out all willy-nilly and were picked off.

Whether trogs are actually stupid enough to succumb to even the more limited ambush tactic depends, I suppose; most competent leaders would think "someone is flooding us, keep together at the exit" and there's your advantage gone already.

Keep in mind that I am not, and at no point have been, the OP of this thread. I never argued that drowning was legitimately likely. I just said that flooding wasn't harmless and didn't need all that destructive power to be stupidly effective. Further the little fools want to bunch up together in a relatively small hallway sloping towards the entrance eh? That just means we can more effectively martial our area based BFC resources. Do you have any idea the unholy hell that can be brought up in such a perfect bottle-neck with even low level BFC? Especially if it's not just a wizard doing it?

[The Insanity]

I never argued that drowning was legitimately likely. I just said that flooding wasn't harmless and didn't need all that destructive power to be stupidly effective.
Being highly contrived in the flood's favor does that, aye.

[Augmental]

I use this optional 3rd party handbook for dealing with lava, which fixes the prestidigitation issue:

Fire & Brimstone: A comprehensive guide to lava, magma, and superheated rock (http://www.scratchfactory.com/Resources/LavaBanners/LavaRules.pdf)

Those lava rules don't account for different types of lava or phenocysts at all!

[ryu]

Being highly contrived in the flood's favor does that, aye.

Nah my plan works with any significantly large cave. The niche situation as played out made the drowning viable. I said it was unlikely, not impossible.

[Coidzor]

Those lava rules don't account for different types of lava or phenocysts at all!

Phenocrysts? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenocryst) :smallconfused:

[The Insanity]

Nah my plan works with any significantly large cave. The niche situation as played out made the drowning viable. I said it was unlikely, not impossible.
No, your plan works only with a cave that's made out of gravel and the trogs being stupid.

[Slipperychicken]

No, your plan works only with a cave that's made out of gravel and the trogs being stupid.

"Stupid" is an understatement. It's more like video-game AI levels of suicidal idiocy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToLive).

[ryu]

No, your plan works only with a cave that's made out of gravel and the trogs being stupid.

At no point did I out and out require the caves destruction. Why do people always jump to that conclusion whenever any sort of damage to the environment short or long term is brought up? Further the trogs have two options that involve a chance of not dying. They can send a trog out to scout the danger of the enemy and come back with a report to determine likely group tactics likely basing those tactics on the trog not coming back, or they can rush the exit as a large group because they have no chance alone. Then BFC shenanigans happen.

[The Insanity]

At no point did I out and out require the caves destruction.
Good, because I didn't say anything of that sort.

[cakellene]

Trogs have 8 Int. I don't think they're stupid enough to live in a cave that might collapse on their heads any moment.
Also, again, caves are not houses.
Also, the point is to kill the inhabitants, not to make them move lairs.

Defeating an encounter doesn't have to mean killing things, as long as the goal is accomplished. Assuming the goal wasn't to kill off the beasts.

[ryu]

Good, because I didn't say anything of that sort.

Literally the only reason the cave being gravel would be relevant would be if I wanted it destroyed. Rendering it a mold-encrusted, bacterial spawning ground with regular fairly deep pools of stagnant water fills the uninhabitable goal HARD.

[MeeposFire]

You know this actually isn't that unique as groups used to do stuff like this all the time WITHOUT using magic and it was trivially easy. Look around and you will find stories about people using smoke to do much the same thing and it did not require magic at all and is probably quicker.

IN those times such strategies were actually praised rather than looked at as being a problem. Straight up combat was to be avoided if you could be clever instead.

[Coidzor]

Literally the only reason the cave being gravel would be relevant would be if I wanted it destroyed. Rendering it a mold-encrusted, bacterial spawning ground with regular fairly deep pools of stagnant water fills the uninhabitable goal HARD.

Wouldn't the Underdark basically be uninhabitable by that metric? :smallconfused:

Or even most/all caves due to them typically being kinda damp to begin with unless they're in an arid region and wind-carved?

[The Grue]

You know this actually isn't that unique as groups used to do stuff like this all the time WITHOUT using magic and it was trivially easy. Look around and you will find stories about people using smoke to do much the same thing and it did not require magic at all and is probably quicker.

IN those times such strategies were actually praised rather than looked at as being a problem. Straight up combat was to be avoided if you could be clever instead.

I too am of the school that if you're rolling to attack, you've already mucked up the encounter. :smallbiggrin:

[schoklat]

You know this actually isn't that unique as groups used to do stuff like this all the time WITHOUT using magic and it was trivially easy. Look around and you will find stories about people using smoke to do much the same thing and it did not require magic at all and is probably quicker.

IN those times such strategies were actually praised rather than looked at as being a problem. Straight up combat was to be avoided if you could be clever instead.

See OOTS 858 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html) / 859 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html) :smallbiggrin:

In PF the free cantrips work out pretty damn well. And even Detect Magic at will is much more a feature than a bug at our table.

The rest comes down to player / PC vs DM / NPC intelligence, and the dreaded "common sense" epic level encounter. Go figure...

[ryu]

Wouldn't the Underdark basically be uninhabitable by that metric? :smallconfused:

Or even most/all caves due to them typically being kinda damp to begin with unless they're in an arid region and wind-carved?

By humans without magical assistance or some serious racial and cultural adaptation? Yeah pretty uninhabitable. That place is far more unforgiving and full of dangerous wildlife than the average above-ground city. Heck just to carve out Menzobaranzan, or however the hell that place is spelled, the dark elves apparently had to murder a beholder who had carved out the entire chamber himself.

Further most caves being kinda damp isn't the same as even mild flooding. While they will have more mold and bacteria to worry about than usual it will not likely be to the same extreme as what we're talking about and especially near the surface. Kinda damp is not the same as the entire floor of the cave being submerged one foot deep in water. It's a matter of severity.

[SarmKahel]

I wouldn't be so bold as to say that infinite cantrips in 3.5 are bad, but I can definitely see where they would be a problem in many campaign settings, specifically the lower magic ones. It doesn't matter how many restrictions you put on these, if you're playing in a setting where scrolls are rare and you can't just walk into a shop any buy whatever magic item you're looking for this is going to completely destroy any semblance of magical rarity. It can also be a problem in many group types. Its much like the warlock class, which can take several spell like abilities at will as invocations. Once in place, the DM must now ensure that an infinite number and combination of these abilities cannot solve challenges which are not time constrictive, or else one of the parties casters can just use these abilities for everything. I love a creative solution to problems as much as the next guy, but the DM's number one job is to make sure that the players are having fun. If you have players that enjoy running around town constantly tricking commoners into believing their hats have spontaneously transformed into gold in between quests, then I can see this working out for you, but I know many players will quickly tire of prestidigitation and detect magic being used on every non combat challenge.

[gorilla-turtle]

This thread got a bit more out of hand than i thought it would.

Concerning Cure Minor Wounds, it is a joke at high levels to consider that an issue, and at mid levels it is a help more than it is a hinderance. At low levels, it might be two strong, given how little hp everything at that level has, and for the sake of verlmicitude, that the entire world has priests that never run out of healing is not something I like. Perhapse infinite cantrips available at a certain caster level would be better, to keep such a power out of access of low level npcs. A nice treat for the pcs and for anone magical enough to deserve it.

Concerning Prestidigitation, is it not supposed to be able to do anything that another spell, even another cantrip, actually can do? For some reason, I was under the assumption that it could not imitate any affect that another spell specifically already governs. This would also eliminate using it to gain fire resistance, because that is the stupidest rule I have ever seen in my entire life, and no way in the world would I allow a cantrip to make the one who uses it immune to a volcano. Even if that is not the case, I might still make it a permanent houserule of mine all the same, because that is seriously ridiculous.

Concerning Metamagic Abuse, Metamagic Abuse is always a threat in games, and hopefully the PCS can hold back on it themselves. If needed, actively applying a metamagic to a 0th level spell expends that spell slot entirely for the day.

And concerning Troglodyte Flooding, to say that scenario honestly speaks volumes about that Dungeon Master and his playing style is putting it mildly. To let a group sit and flood a structure for over the run of a noticable chunk of a day, doing absolutely nothing else, and not have them ambushed by a scouting group on their way back, or through the members of the lair having an alternative exit and having evacuated during the flood, would be unthinkable for me. Is there really any more that needs to be said on that subject?

[Coidzor]

This thread got a bit more out of hand than i thought it would.

The mark of a fairly successful thread. :smallbiggrin: I think. :smallconfused: Usually. :smallcool: Maybe. :smalleek:

[MonochromeTiger]

The mark of a fairly successful thread. :smallbiggrin: I think. :smallconfused: Usually. :smallcool: Maybe. :smalleek:

always. always a successful thread if an anecdote to try and show an opinion on the original point is debatable enough that people use it as ammo for further arguments on the topic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Literally the only reason the cave being gravel would be relevant would be if I wanted it destroyed. Rendering it a mold-encrusted, bacterial spawning ground with regular fairly deep pools of stagnant water fills the uninhabitable goal HARD.

That depends on what's trying to inhabit the place.

Trogs are sporting a +5 fort modifier on average and the diseases that such conditions result in are filth fever (DC 12) and blinding sickness (dc 16). The former requires injury and the latter requires that the fetid water be ingested or inhaled as an aerosol.

Also, note that mold doesn't grow very well in cool conditions such as most of a cave system that stretches more than a dozen or two feet into a rock face.

Such conditions would be entirely livable by troglodyte standards.

[ryu]

So what you're telling me is that you think trogs would willingly live in a place which causes fairly large swaths of their population to go completely blind permanently, weaker, as well as a fair chance of being less dextrous and fortitude heavy? And that assuming that a disease can never reapply upon someone who has successfully made the save. Yeah. Liveable. And that's nerfing real life disease potential to boot.

[Drachasor]

Pretty sure those molds and fungus that are really bad don't just grow spontaneously anywhere. Most molds and fungus aren't dangerous just by being near them. It's a little silly to assume any mold or fungus that grows is going to be one in the DMG. The DMG even says plenty are innocuous and implies only a few types are dangerous.

And nothing says they can't clean up mold before it becomes a problem. Of course, if Troggs tend to live in such areas, they'd probably have a much higher resistance. Easy for stat blocks to forget that sort of thing.

I suppose a party could develop a convoluted fungus plan to disable the Troggs over time or something. As a DM I'd be...well, creeped out by that, but allow it.

[sjeshin]

Presentation and context are, as always, key.



Yes, Metamagic Reduction is a bit of a problem. As long as one isn't allowing it to be even worse by reducing higher level spells to 0th level slots, there's no issue as far as I'm aware. Even the most hideously metamagic'd cantrip is still a cantrip.

Would you give a few examples of what you're seeing here, please?


Explain. Metamagic Reduction will never drop a higher level spell down to a cantrip and no cantrip is a problem as long as it remains a cantrip(0th level spell in a 0th level slot).

This can be a problem because you can get enough reducers for a sorcerer to slap fell drain on acid splash, and it still take up a level 0 spell slot. Free negative levels on enemies for a touch attack all day. You can do this at level 8, maybe even 7 with 6 levels of sorcerer and 1 of encantatrix.

As a side note though, the best solution I have seen was from my favorite DM. In his 3.5 campaigns your cantrips are *unlimited. If you have it prepared as an orison or cantrip, or can spontaneously cast it, you can cast it as many times as you want. At what he feels is a reasonable number, usually around 6-10 uses depending on when you use them, you make a fort save against a number the DM adjusts to be about a 50/50 pass fail for your character. If you fail you are fatigued. Fail again, exhausted, and unable to continue using that 0 level spell.

[ryu]

Pretty sure those molds and fungus that are really bad don't just grow spontaneously anywhere. Most molds and fungus aren't dangerous just by being near them. It's a little silly to assume any mold or fungus that grows is going to be one in the DMG. The DMG even says plenty are innocuous and implies only a few types are dangerous.

And nothing says they can't clean up mold before it becomes a problem.

Even though mold and fungi can and will happen near the surface, the bacteria and incredible amounts of still water are the real concerns. Quite frankly the DMG diseases are a step down from what I'd expect in such an area especially given any significant amount of time.

[Slipperychicken]

This can be a problem because you can get enough reducers for a sorcerer to slap fell drain on acid splash, and it still take up a level 0 spell slot. Free negative levels on enemies for a touch attack all day. You can do this at level 8, maybe even 7 with 6 levels of sorcerer and 1 of encantatrix.


One negative level for a standard action (Full-Round action since it's a metamagic-ing Sorcerer) isn't a great trade at level 7. You could one-shot commoners and goblins, but you've been able to do that since level 3. In combat, it'll take you quite a few turns to bring down even weak enemies, and those turns could be better spent casting real spells like buffs and CC so your team's fighters can do the job better.

It does make a good alternative to the crossbow, though. And firing a black viscous blob at people is.. interesting imagery :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

So what you're telling me is that you think trogs would willingly live in a place which causes fairly large swaths of their population to go completely blind permanently, weaker, as well as a fair chance of being less dextrous and fortitude heavy? And that assuming that a disease can never reapply upon someone who has successfully made the save. Yeah. Liveable. And that's nerfing real life disease potential to boot.

You're overestimating.

Filth fever is mostly a non-issue. +6 natural armor means that minor scratches are an extreme rarity. Even in the case of exposure there's only a 30% chance of contracting the disease in the first place and the same chance for each instance of potential ability damage. Of those that contract the disease, almost half will shake it off without taking any ability damage at all. It will be very rare for anyone to ever die of the disease.

Blinding sickness is a bit dodgier but exposure is almost as unlikely as for filth fever. The air in a cave system moves -slowly- most of the time. Much too slowly for tainted water to readily aerosolize and the only other chance for exposure is if the fool things are dumb enough to drink from the puddles left behind by this attack, rather than wherever they were getting their water before it. Even then blindness has poor odds of happening. Two failed saves, a high damage roll, and a third failed save to trigger immediately. At even odds throughout (dc 16 vs +5 mod and 3 or 4 on the d4) that's about 6.25% odds that they'll go blind on a given exposure; hardly "large swaths."

Intel 8 is low enough that the correlation between dirty living conditions and disease is unlikely to occur in a small, tribal society especially given their naturally oily bodies and horrid stench.

[Drachasor]

This can be a problem because you can get enough reducers for a sorcerer to slap fell drain on acid splash, and it still take up a level 0 spell slot. Free negative levels on enemies for a touch attack all day. You can do this at level 8, maybe even 7 with 6 levels of sorcerer and 1 of encantatrix.

As a side note though, the best solution I have seen was from my favorite DM. In his 3.5 campaigns your cantrips are *unlimited. If you have it prepared as an orison or cantrip, or can spontaneously cast it, you can cast it as many times as you want. At what he feels is a reasonable number, usually around 6-10 uses depending on when you use them, you make a fort save against a number the DM adjusts to be about a 50/50 pass fail for your character. If you fail you are fatigued. Fail again, exhausted, and unable to continue using that 0 level spell.

Why have it be a fort save if it is just 50/50? Seems weird.

I think the problem is the metamagic in this instance, not the unlimited cantrip. Level drain can be very crazy. I'd focus on that. But this is really only a problem with certain metamagics, not the vast majority of material or spells.

Possibly Pathfinder had the right idea with their cantrips, but I think they probably went overboard on limiting things. Their Devs are waaaay too cautious about unlimited use minor abilities.* I think some minor changes might be good, but overall nothing major.

Frankly, Cantrips could be given a number of buffs and still be fine, such as damaging ones using your casting mod for attack and damage.

*They'd never make something like the Warlock for instance. Damage is something they especially avoid being unlimited except for swords and whatnot.

[Know(Nothing)]

So in an attempt to once again move things away from (ridiculous)single-situation examples...

Particularly in an All-Tier-3 campaign that I'm currently in, but really in all the games that I've played this way, limitless cantrips have been nothing but fun. They're that fantastic kind of thing that is weak, yet powerful if applied creatively and situationally. It's been implied that similar consequences to sjeshin's will occur if casting so many of them that you fatigue or exhaust yourself, but it's also been applied that as character level increases, so does your undefined limit.

As always it comes down to situational circumstances. If the DM is letting infinite basic cantrips be game breaking, it will probably mean less fun. If the players are trying to break things with Metamagic-reduced 0-level Fell Drained Chained Acid Splashes, then it will probably mean less fun.

It all comes down to the table in question. I know that doesn't answer the question at the core of the thread, but really the only answer is a question-- what can your dm/players handle?

[OldTrees1]

This can be a problem because you can get enough reducers for a sorcerer to slap fell drain on acid splash, and it still take up a level 0 spell slot. Free negative levels on enemies for a touch attack all day. You can do this at level 8, maybe even 7 with 6 levels of sorcerer and 1 of encantatrix.

Fighters get it at-will by 6th. (Soul Eater)

[Psyren]

Fixed that for 'ya.

Yeah, that.


It would seem that adopting the pathfinder version of the cantrips would be a good follow-up to making them infinite. (since obviously, they had to combat some of the same problems you're having)

This. 3.5 cantrips are simply not balanced around being infinite; the PF versions are, so things like flooding dungeons and infinite healing at all levels and invalidating sunder mid-fight were already addressed.

This is of course the problem with simply changing the rules without doing research first, even the very rudimentary research of seeing how other games handle it.

[Darkz0r]

Amazing how people overcomplicate simple stuffs.

I just make cantrips infinite except for the potentially "game breaking" ones already discussed here: cure minor, create water, purify, etc.
Those actually have to be prepared or use up 1 cast.

There, problem solved.
Getting a mature group that have 0 interest in breaking the game also makes things easier.

[Psyren]

Getting a mature group that have 0 interest in breaking the game also makes things easier.

Reading these boards, this is indeed my greatest source of gratitude :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

It just occurred to me, but if you're going to give casters infinite cantrips, you might consider giving Dread Necromancers cantrips, too.

[Coidzor]

It just occurred to me, but if you're going to give casters infinite cantrips, you might consider giving Dread Necromancers cantrips, too.

Casters without 0th level spells always sort of weirded me out, I must admit. PrCs that added casting to non-casters like Knight of the Weave and Suel Arcanamach a little less so, though.

[Slipperychicken]

Casters without 0th level spells always sort of weirded me out, I must admit.

I sort of felt like excluding cantrips was (much like only giving 4 spell levels) a sort of admission that a class isn't considered a "real" spellcaster, like Rangers and Paladins.

[OldTrees1]

I sort of felt like excluding cantrips was (much like only giving 4 spell levels) a sort of admission that a class isn't considered a "real" spellcaster, like Rangers and Paladins.

And Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer?

[Kelb_Panthera]

And Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer?

Beguilers and Warmages do get cantrips. :smallconfused:

[OldTrees1]

Beguilers and Warmages do get cantrips. :smallconfused:

Huh.
Then I am confused at the lack of cantrips for Dread Necromancers.

[MeeposFire]

THey probably did not think there was enough to really make a catrip list that fit the necro theme. Granted I think it would still work but that may have been the thinking.

[Dalebert]

Or maybe DNs got enough other perks that they felt like they should have to give them up in compensation. Disclaimer: I'm clueless about DNs. This is just a maybe; not my belief.

[Chronos]

How about just giving them Inflict Minor Wounds, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Idiocy, Detect Magic, Read Magic, and Detect Poison? Maybe also toss in Resistance and Virtue.

[Know(Nothing)]

The ones my tables give the DN are Bleed, Disrupt Undead, Ghost Sound, Touch of Fatigue, Detect Magic, No Light, Shadow Play, Detect Poison, Inflict Minor Wounds, and Read Magic.

[Drachasor]

I'd toss in Prestidigitation, because...why not? Plenty of uses in necromatic work and it is kind of an arcane staple. Imho, you need a good reason to not give it to an arcane full caster. Lacking that, they should get it.

I was going to mention Ghost Sound too, but you beat me to it.

[Fishman]

The only spell that is sometimes an issue is detect magic. It can slow down the game, much like searching for traps, when the party checks everything with it...and often it Nancy Screws the GM.Why are you allowing this to slow down the game? After the first few iterations, just ask them if they want to make it SOP, and if they say yes, just include the magic detection into the description when you do it. This applies to any action that players constantly do. If they constantly search for traps, just start treating them as always searching for traps, and adjust their rate of movement accordingly to account for it. And tell them if they find a trap doing it. Why would this slow down the game?

[Drachasor]

Unlimited detect magic can be a real boon too. Since it can reveal bits and pieces of info on enchantments and whatnot. You can leverage this for story purposes pretty easily.


Regarding some stuff like create water. Rather than limited uses per day, I could see having a Caster Level based limit on amount of water generated per day. Toss in that you can generate any smaller amount than normal per cast and that sorts out that spell pretty well. Not that I think there's a real problem with it normally. It just raises some world issues if there's unlimited water.

Hmm, actually this could be the basis of a lot of retuning. I could see Magic Missile being changed similarly. Say 5 missiles per Caster Level per day per Magic Missile prepared. You can cast the spell again and again until you exhaust that limit. Standard limit on how many you get per cast.

[Maginomicon]

I use a variant of the UA Spell Points system. In my variant, resting for an hour or drinking a Mana Restoration potion recovers all 0-level spells as a side-effect. This makes them not "infinite", just effectively infinite, and without any of the problems described in this thread. This policy can be easily adapted to non-spell-point systems by simply house-ruling that an hour of rest recovers all 0-level spells.

In-practice, this has absolutely no significant impact on practical gameplay whatsoever. They're still just as limited at any given time, but if they really want their cantrips back they can rest for an hour. In a normal game, resting for an hour may not be a big deal, but if you use random encounters or a short campaign time limit, it quickly becomes impractical to rest for trivial things like cantrips.

If anyone wants to see the full text of my Spell Points variant, PM me.

[Firechanter]

Funny, I was considering to allow unlimited cantrips in my 3.5, but reading this thread kinda swayed me in the conservative direction. Though I wouldn't mind, say, doubling the daily allotment of cantrip slots.

And it's not even CMiW that I have any beef with. Out of combat healing may very well be free. In my experience, HP are a more limiting factor than spell slots.

One thing that may be desirable is the "magic standard attack", such as those 1d3 energy attack cantrips. In 3.5, it is generally a bad idea to waste your cantrip slots for these. In PF, a Wizard can still feel like a Wizard even after spending all their main spell slots (and you always have a tool handy to kill off a disabled Troll).

Keep in mind that 3.5 already has a mechanism for "infinite magic", in the form of Reserve Feats.

[Coidzor]

Funny, I was considering to allow unlimited cantrips in my 3.5, but reading this thread kinda swayed me in the conservative direction. Though I wouldn't mind, say, doubling the daily allotment of cantrip slots.

And it's not even CMiW that I have any beef with. Out of combat healing may very well be free. In my experience, HP are a more limiting factor than spell slots.

So what is the problem then? :smallconfused: People actually using prestidigitation? The ability to try to flood caverns instead of smoke them out? Problem Players? Metamagic reducers?


Regarding some stuff like create water. Rather than limited uses per day, I could see having a Caster Level based limit on amount of water generated per day.

Or even at one time, not counting water that is consumed by drinking/watering plants.


Toss in that you can generate any smaller amount than normal per cast and that sorts out that spell pretty well. Not that I think there's a real problem with it normally. It just raises some world issues if there's unlimited water.

There's already unlimited water if you're using standard planar cosmology. PF added the limitation that the water goes away after 24 hours if it's not consumed, to prevent stockpiling of water or creating artificial lakes.


Hmm, actually this could be the basis of a lot of retuning. I could see Magic Missile being changed similarly. Say 5 missiles per Caster Level per day per Magic Missile prepared. You can cast the spell again and again until you exhaust that limit. Standard limit on how many you get per cast.

Interesting idea, though I think you would have to instead give the spell a duration and uses within that duration rather than give multiple castings to the spell slot without some... rather clever wording to get around the magic system. :smallconfused:

[Dalebert]

In my game, before I saw what PF was doing with cantrips, I at least was allowing people to get their spell bonus from stats toward cantrips and I was allowing them double the number of however many 1st level spells they got.

[Giddonihah]

Why do people want to buff low lvl spellcasters again? Not like they arnt good enough.. whatev.

If you are going for the low level magic is easy route, just vastly increase the progression of 0 lvl spells, so you end up with a far larger pool of cantrips, perhaps making it so that each casting stat mod adds +2 to cantrips per day or something.
That way a high level spellcaster has a ton of 0lvl spells while a low lvl still has limited pool.

But infinite cantrips at lvl 1 messes with any setting that isnt High Magic unless you remove several problematic cantrips.(or upgrade them to lvl1 spells) or just use Pathfinder cantrips, cause they are made with being infinite in mind.

[Amphetryon]

Most of my experience gaming has been with Pathfinder and I have never found the infinite cantrips to be bad. They all have pretty strict limitations if you read them carefully...and half the time the party forgets they have them. Sure, you can do some cool things with them, but you have to get pretty creative...and I am always in favor of creativity at the gaming table.

The only spell that is sometimes an issue is detect magic. It can slow down the game, much like searching for traps, when the party checks everything with it...and often it Nancy Screws the GM. Also, I imagine that Cure Minor Wounds would be problematic, but that is removed in Pathfinder.

Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) cast on, say, 5% of the treasure found will go a long way to mitigating the problem of messing with the DM's plans.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Concerning Prestidigitation, is it not supposed to be able to do anything that another spell, even another cantrip, actually can do? For some reason, I was under the assumption that it could not imitate any affect that another spell specifically already governs. This would also eliminate using it to gain fire resistance, because that is the stupidest rule I have ever seen in my entire life, and no way in the world would I allow a cantrip to make the one who uses it immune to a volcano. Even if that is not the case, I might still make it a permanent houserule of mine all the same, because that is seriously ridiculous.

Granting fire resistance is explicitly something Prestidigitation can do (check under Dampen (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707)) - you'd be better changing the rule on any fire resistance at all granting immunity to lava damage. But that's just how I'd rule it, if I were going for a house rule.


Why are you allowing this to slow down the game? After the first few iterations, just ask them if they want to make it SOP, and if they say yes, just include the magic detection into the description when you do it. This applies to any action that players constantly do. If they constantly search for traps, just start treating them as always searching for traps, and adjust their rate of movement accordingly to account for it. And tell them if they find a trap doing it. Why would this slow down the game?

This exactly. It's not like they have to roll to disbelieve (as in days of old), it's just a twelve second wait (and an eighteen second wait and a roll per item come some downtime).

Most of the issues that it might cause (save it not being appropriate for a low-magic campaign setting) are issues with the magic system generally (metamagic reduction shenanigans, magic obviating encounters, &c.) rather than with giving casters more cantrips. Giving at-will cantrips is nice, it lets your casters do (a limited version of) their thing all day long, and the harm it causes is minimal. So I would say, no, infinite cantrips aren't bad (except in ways the magic system is already prone to hacks). And hey, if they make things more fun at your table, they can even be good.

[Slipperychicken]

Or even at one time, not counting water that is consumed by drinking/watering plants.


If I run a mage's guild game, I'm totally including magical water-fountains :smallbiggrin:

Maybe each individual fountain/toilet/etc is fed from a higher-CL machine, which pumps water over to them?

[MonochromeTiger]

If I run a mage's guild game, I'm totally including magical water-fountains :smallbiggrin:

Maybe they're fed from a higher-CL machine, which pumps water over to them?

....magic water fountain... the water delivery and processing unions have some words for you.

[ryu]

....magic water fountain... the water delivery and processing unions have some words for you.

One does not simply oppose the local mage's guild.

[Slipperychicken]

One does not simply oppose the local mage's guild.

This sounds like an amusing background thing in high-magic D&D game: a dispute between the Mage's Guild and Water Union about whether magical utilities are in compliance with union laws.

[Telok]

One thing I dislike about infinite cantrips for the standard vancian casters is it's effect on the players (other than things like unlimited Fell Drain Sonic Snaps).

It lures players into a "all magic, all the time" mindset where they expect to cast spells for everything. Every round of combat they cast one or more spells, every problem is to be solved by spells, all travel is accomplished by spells, everything is spells, spells, spells. And when the character is out of spells then suddenly everyone has to stop for the day so the caster can recharge, or if the casted doesn't have the right spell to solve something it's the GMs fault for giving them a challenge that they can't do anything with or it's the GMs fault for not providing the caster with access to the spell.

The "all magic, all the time" mindset reduced the character to AC, HP, saves, attack bonus, and the spell list. All equipment that doesn't make spells better is ignored, all non-magic skills are ignored, race and social class become irrelevant. The player stops doing anything but casting spells and whining or zoning out of the game if they can't use spells for something. They stop using or even carrying weapons, ignore basic adventuring gear like pry-bars and rope, and don't care about the environment unless they need to cast Endure Elements. While other PCs are tossing enemies off balconies, jumping across rooftops, and trying to rescue hostages the spell casters is just buffing themsleves and throwing Acid Fog over everything before Teleporting back to the king and dumping his dead daughter at his feet saying "Just take the cost of the Raise Dead out of my reward."

Infinite cantrips is a side effect of turning magic into a commodity or a button on a power bar in your game.

[Rubik]

One thing I dislike about infinite cantrips for the standard vancian casters is it's effect on the players (other than things like unlimited Fell Drain Sonic Snaps).

It lures players into a "all magic, all the time" mindset where they expect to cast spells for everything. Every round of combat they cast one or more spells, every problem is to be solved by spells, all travel is accomplished by spells, everything is spells, spells, spells. And when the character is out of spells then suddenly everyone has to stop for the day so the caster can recharge, or if the casted doesn't have the right spell to solve something it's the GMs fault for giving them a challenge that they can't do anything with or it's the GMs fault for not providing the caster with access to the spell.

The "all magic, all the time" mindset reduced the character to AC, HP, saves, attack bonus, and the spell list. All equipment that doesn't make spells better is ignored, all non-magic skills are ignored, race and social class become irrelevant. The player stops doing anything but casting spells and whining or zoning out of the game if they can't use spells for something. They stop using or even carrying weapons, ignore basic adventuring gear like pry-bars and rope, and don't care about the environment unless they need to cast Endure Elements. While other PCs are tossing enemies off balconies, jumping across rooftops, and trying to rescue hostages the spell casters is just buffing themsleves and throwing Acid Fog over everything before Teleporting back to the king and dumping his dead daughter at his feet saying "Just take the cost of the Raise Dead out of my reward."

Infinite cantrips is a side effect of turning magic into a commodity or a button on a power bar in your game.And how is this different than it usually is?

[Slipperychicken]

The "all magic, all the time" mindset

That comes up in 3.5 (which does not have infinite cantrips). I think the real cause of that mindset is that magic in 3.5 and Pathfinder is simply the most effective means of solving any problem. If magic was more limited in scope, then people would have to focus on nonmagical solutions instead.

[Coidzor]

....magic water fountain... the water delivery and processing unions have some words for you.

Ok, you made me legitimately "lolwut" at that. XD


That comes up in 3.5 (which does not have infinite cantrips). I think the real cause of that mindset is that magic in 3.5 and Pathfinder is simply the most effective means of solving any problem. If magic was more limited in scope, then people would have to focus on nonmagical solutions instead.

And just lay down and die if they weren't able to get access to a magic-only solution to a problem that lacks nonmagical solutions.


This sounds like an amusing background thing in high-magic D&D game: a dispute between the Mage's Guild and Water Union about whether magical utilities are in compliance with union laws.

Sounds like putting the cart before the horse to me.

[ryu]

Ok, you made me legitimately "lolwut" at that. XD



And just lay down and die if they weren't able to get access to a magic-only solution to a problem that lacks nonmagical solutions.



Sounds like putting the cart before the horse to me.

I'm assuming there as a typo there. If there are no magical solutions, and no non-magical solutions there are no solutions unless you get really semantic about ex abilities or psionics are different. Further there's no such thing as a problem magic cannot solve. This includes the entire natural world and all physical, non-living objects emanating anti-magic fields to thirty feet radii. Also yes that's a word. English plurals are WEIRD sometimes.

[Coidzor]

I'm assuming there as a typo there. If there are no magical solutions, and no non-magical solutions there are no solutions unless you get really semantic about ex abilities or psionics are different. Further there's no such thing as a problem magic cannot solve. This includes the entire natural world and all physical, non-living objects emanating anti-magic fields to thirty feet radii. Also yes that's a word. English plurals are WEIRD sometimes.

If you take away their access to magical solutions to force them to rely more on nonmagical solutions and then throw a situation which can only be solved by magic, their only recourse is to lay down and die in game. Out of game on the other hand...

[ryu]

If you take away their access to magical solutions to force them to rely more on nonmagical solutions and then throw a situation which can only be solved by magic, their only recourse is to lay down and die in game. Out of game on the other hand...

In that case it's literally a jerk move as you've by definition handed them an unsolvable problem, as I'm assuming the magic access denial is fiat-based. In that situation the appropriate response is to throw ALL the PHBs at the DM.

[Coidzor]

In that case it's literally a jerk move as you've by definition handed them an unsolvable problem, as I'm assuming the magic access denial is fiat-based. In that situation the appropriate response is to throw ALL the PHBs at the DM.

I was trying to highlight that if one wants to de-emphasize magic in 3.5, then one also has to actually give non-magical options to deal with various problems/monsters or just not use them, mostly.

[ryu]

I was trying to highlight that if one wants to de-emphasize magic in 3.5, then one also has to actually give non-magical options to deal with various problems/monsters or just not use them, mostly.

Fair enough. Can we agree upon response in worst-case scenarios?

[schoklat]

One thing I dislike about infinite cantrips for the standard vancian casters is it's effect on the players [...].

It lures players into a "all magic, all the time" mindset where they expect to cast spells for everything. [...] And when the character is out of spells then suddenly everyone has to stop for the day so the caster can recharge, or if the casted doesn't have the right spell to solve something it's the GMs fault for giving them a challenge that they can't do anything with or it's the GMs fault for not providing the caster with access to the spell.

[...]

Infinite cantrips is a side effect of turning magic into a commodity or a button on a power bar in your game.

One problem is the players being sissies/uncreative/bullies/allofit, the other is the DM letting them get away with it.
Call me repetitive, but in-game problems that are purely a reflection of social problems can rarely solved by "game rules" and almost always by a good talk between the actual players.

[Slipperychicken]

And just lay down and die if they weren't able to get access to a magic-only solution to a problem that lacks nonmagical solutions.

I think that's just the way players are trained to think about problems in dnd 3.5, since for every problem, there's a spell for it. Perhaps a player who started in a different system (one which isn't a "magic tea party") would have an easier time employing lateral thinking or coming up with nonmagical solutions?

[Drachasor]

I think that's just the way players are trained to think about problems in dnd 3.5, since for every problem, there's a spell for it. Perhaps a player who started in a different system (one which isn't a "magic tea party") would have an easier time employing lateral thinking or coming up with nonmagical solutions?

And frankly if a spell solves the problem with minimum fuss...it's kind of stupid IC not to use it.

Though, I don't see the massive problems infinite cantrips will generally solve. Maybe some highly specialized ones, but not ones that come up very often.

[Talya]

If I'm playing a sorcerer-type character (one of my favorite classes), I absolutely want magic to be used in every scenario. that's her whole schtick...a sorcerer doesn't do anything EXCEPT for magic.

[Drachasor]

If I'm playing a sorcerer-type character (one of my favorite classes), I absolutely want magic to be used in every scenario. that's her whole schtick...a sorcerer doesn't do anything EXCEPT for magic.

But then you give up fighting crime with your moustachioed mundane cheesewheel named "Bob" if everything is magic!

[Coidzor]

But then you give up fighting crime with your moustachioed mundane cheesewheel named "Bob" if everything is magic!

As long as they're friends it works. Because Friendship, Dear Readers, IS Magic. :smallamused:

[Talya]

{{scrubbed}}

[Spore]

{{scrubbed}}

Hooves make it impossible to practice magic. Hence, friendship can never create magic!

[Rubik]

Hooves make it impossible to practice magic. Hence, friendship can never create magic!And psionics comes to save the day!

[Talya]

Hooves make it impossible to practice magic. Hence, friendship can never create magic!

The celestial charger would like to have a word with you.

[Drachasor]

Hooves make it impossible to practice magic. Hence, friendship can never create magic!

Actually, with the Somatic Friendship Feat, you can get around that.

[Slipperychicken]

Hooves make it impossible to practice magic. Hence, friendship can never create magic!

Unicorns get to cast cure spells and neutralize poison.

A Horse Druid could have taken Natural Spell to use somatic components in horse form.

Centaur magicians can cast spells just fine.

[The Insanity]

Surrogate Spellcasting, Savage Species.

[Jlerpy]

As long as they're friends it works. Because Friendship, Dear Readers, IS Magic. :smallamused:

Live. Live now, in a rainbow.