My friend and I are debating on whether UMD should be CHA based or INT based. [Archive]

eggynack

2013-12-18, 11:14 PM

It seems to me that Charisma in 3.x has very little going for it, and needs at least one powerful skill attached. While Intelligence is the second-worst ability, moving UMD over would make Cha even more of a dump stat.
I don't really know how you figure either of these things. Charisma is weak, but it has some of the most powerful skills in the game, between diplomacy, intimidate, bluff, handle animal, and obviously this. As for intelligence, it's probably around the third best stat, after constitution and dexterity. Charisma is certainly worse, as is wisdom, and with strength it's build dependent. Everyone likes skill points.

Edit:
But that's the way it IS in D&D. Magic seems to be very much a precise and almost scientific thing, largely predictable and studied in schools and taught by knowledgeable, talented instructors. The very fact that INT is tied to arcane casting implies, to me, that any facet of arcane magic should be able to be picked up through sheer INT.
Intelligence isn't always tied to arcane casting. For example, how about that sorcerer? As for UMD in particular, the idea is that while others may use their knowledge and learning to fuel their magic, you're basically just faking it, tricking the item into believing that you're of the right race or alignment.

ryu

2013-12-18, 11:16 PM

As friends, I guess that you respect one another's opinion and can see the merits in the other guy's position. So, perhaps you should agree that it could be either, depending on what is better for game balance?

It seems to me that Charisma in 3.x has very little going for it, and needs at least one powerful skill attached. While Intelligence is the second-worst ability, moving UMD over would make Cha even more of a dump stat.

Wat? Int is like the best or at least second best and cha only slightly worse. They're both ready-made to be applied to pretty much everything, and like two thirds of the time one is linked directly to casting stat...

eggynack

2013-12-18, 11:17 PM

Wat? Int is like the best or at least second best and cha only slightly worse. They're both ready-made to be applied to pretty much everything, and like two thirds of the time one is linked directly to casting stat...
Charisma is a complicated thing. It's probably one of the worst stats out of the box, but you don't necessarily have to take it right out of the box, as it were.

AnonymousPepper

2013-12-18, 11:23 PM

I don't really know how you figure either of these things. Charisma is weak, but it has some of the most powerful skills in the game, between diplomacy, intimidate, bluff, handle animal, and obviously this. As for intelligence, it's probably around the third best stat, after constitution and dexterity. Charisma is certainly worse, as is wisdom, and with strength it's build dependent. Everyone likes skill points.

Edit:
Intelligence isn't always tied to arcane casting. For example, how about that sorcerer? As for UMD in particular, the idea is that while others may use their knowledge and learning to fuel their magic, you're basically just faking it, tricking the item into believing that you're of the right race or alignment.

That's an additional example, not a counter example.

Anyway, I know that's how UMD works, but, I figure there has to be an intellectual art to it. Stupid people can be strong, stupid people can be good swimmers, stupid people can do a barrel roll, stupid people can be a lot of things, but stupid people aren't going to fool anyone or anything.

WbtE

2013-12-18, 11:26 PM

BoutsofInsanity

2013-12-18, 11:26 PM

Why not let it use both? Using two different ways to get the same result. One using intelligence and logic to figure out the password. The other just overrides it with sheer force of will. Then everyone wins.

Bickerstaff

2013-12-18, 11:27 PM

In Pathfinder, there's a trait by the name of "Pragmatic Activator" that lets you use Int instead of Cha for UMD.

So, there's always that.

eggynack

2013-12-18, 11:31 PM

That's an additional example, not a counter example.
No, it is a counter-example. Your argument is that arcane casting is tied to intelligence. It's not. It's tied to either intelligence or charisma (and occasionally something that's neither of those), so precedent isn't a valid argument. That's also ignoring the fact that divine wands are a thing too, which adds wisdom to the setup as a major factor, but then that's occasionally intelligence too. So, magic is not a precise and scientific thing. Sometimes it's a precise and scientific thing, and sometimes it's applying your sheer force of will, and sometimes it's coming from a higher power.

Anyway, I know that's how UMD works, but, I figure there has to be an intellectual art to it. Stupid people can be strong, stupid people can be good swimmers, stupid people can do a barrel roll, stupid people can be a lot of things, but stupid people aren't going to fool anyone or anything.
That's ridiculous. Charisma is your ability to fool someone, as defined in bluff. You don't need to be smart at all to fool someone. You just need to be sufficiently convincing.

Aliek

2013-12-18, 11:31 PM

I believe UMD is CHA-based because you're mostly faking it.
Think about it like this - A wizard uses a wand. He knows the flux of arcane power should go from the bottom half of the shaft to the top in precisely 3.17 seconds, and to keep it stable he should angle it at about 27 degrees, so the excess can flow off and be harmless, and should be moved in a slightly triangular way for best impact.

Someone using UMD doesn't know anything about that. But he knows what a wizard does when he uses the item, and thus copy his exact movements. Kind of like acting. Totally like acting. And I'm pretty sure acting is CHA-based.

Elderand

2013-12-18, 11:32 PM

Remember that in most campaign there is a god or godess of magic.
Keeping that in mind one can therefore say that UMD being cha based is going to have the following result.

"Awww, look at that mortal trying to use a scroll, isn't he adorable ? who's a good mortal ? You are, yes you are. Here have a fireball"

Character with UMD: the campaign equivalent of internet cat videos

ryu

2013-12-18, 11:32 PM

Skill points are a fetish, but that doesn't make Intelligence a good stat. Strength is better by the book than it is in most people's games, because encumbrance is so frequently house-ruled out of existence. Wisdom grants a bonus against save or lose effects, which is better than what Int and Cha offer.

Encumbrance is meaningless because magical storage is cheap. Wisdom is only a thing that matters if you aren't willing to invest in getting something more synergistic to will saves.

eggynack

2013-12-18, 11:35 PM

Skill points are a fetish, but that doesn't make Intelligence a good stat. Strength is better by the book than it is in most people's games, because encumbrance is so frequently house-ruled out of existence. Wisdom grants a bonus against save or lose effects, which is better than what Int and Cha offer.
Skill points can often be quite useful, allowing you to solve combat and non-combat encounters alike. Strength, as it applies to encumbrance, could be replaced by a bag of holding, or even a mule. Not the most relevant thing. Skill points are options, and options are power. Wisdom is nice, but it's ultimately not as important.

The Glyphstone

2013-12-18, 11:35 PM

You can have all the INT you want to try and figure out how a wand/scroll works, but without the actual magical training/talent to activate it, it's just a dead stick/scroll. UMD bypasses that by being so forceful/convincing that the item itself is 'fooled' into believing you do have said training/talent. You're effectively lying to the laws of metaphysics, which is not easy (hence the relatively high UMD DC's), and so relies on CHA.

That's how I see it.

AnonymousPepper

2013-12-18, 11:40 PM

Techwarrior

2013-12-18, 11:41 PM

ryu

2013-12-18, 11:44 PM

What does UMD as cat video mean for the wizard taking it to teach his familiar to use wands and other magic items? I've a guess, but I think it would be interesting to see if everyone comes to the same conclusion.

Elderand

2013-12-18, 11:46 PM

The Glyphstone

2013-12-18, 11:47 PM

Grod_The_Giant

2013-12-18, 11:48 PM

Greenish

2013-12-18, 11:49 PM

The reasoning of "because if your smart enough, you can figure it out" could be applied to most anything.

ryu

2013-12-18, 11:54 PM

Yeah seems about right. Then we get into shenanigans where I give my familiar wizard levels so that it can have a second smaller familiar which uses my UMD by proxy of the two links. Eventually we start getting into recursive cat video loops.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-12-18, 11:57 PM

AnonymousPepper

2013-12-19, 12:02 AM

For the record, the whole reason this discussion got started was because I created a very well-done character for another campaign - a lesser air genasi wizard with 22INT at level 1 - that got aborted. I really liked that guy. And I was thinking about trying out an artificer in another campaign I'm in, and I wanted to keep him mostly as-is with that ridiculous INT score and I was trying to come up with a way to justify not having to deal with my low CHA score as an artificer. More for RPing reasons than anything else, though - I've wanted to play a character like that for a long time, and I've also wanted to play an artificer for a while.

So this argument got started over whether I could justify using my INT for the UMD instead of my relatively low - 12 - CHA to the DM, because an artificer is right out if you've got bad charisma. It turned into a, "yes, your backstory reasons and your logic is sound, but magic just doesn't work that way" versus "I don't see why it can't!" sort of thing.

Fax Celestis

2013-12-19, 12:03 AM

The reasoning of "because if your smart enough, you can figure it out" could be applied to most anything.

...and is readily represented by putting skill points gained from INT into something. People forget the stat mod on a skill doesn't represent your education on the topic, nor does it represent the sum total of what the skill depends upon (those are skill points).

The base stat modifier to a skill represents your natural inclination and talent. Someone who has a strong social presence, is physically attractive, or has an artistic way with words (all things represented by Charisma) is more likely to have their words taken at face value, their lies more easily believed, their social hobnobbery and ladder-climbing surprisingly easier.

Use Magic Device is similar: a high-Charisma-low-ranks character is someone who is naturally talented in the art of deceiving the universe/the weave/unspeakable arcane forces from beyond the stars. Someone who has low-Charisma-high-ranks is a person who struggled to learn an art and overcome a lack of natural talent, but persevered and is now a master of the trade. Even if they both have a total of +10 on their check, how they're getting there differs.

Spore

2013-12-19, 12:05 AM

That's why DSA has such a complex system for that. Because opening a lock isn't only dependant on Dex and your Disable Device. It's dependant on your Int, your Wis. Most "skills" there are dependant on multiple attributes. UMD would be Int/Cha there.

Ultimately D&D is simplifying.

WbtE

2013-12-19, 12:05 AM

Skill points can often be quite useful, allowing you to solve combat and non-combat encounters alike. Strength, as it applies to encumbrance, could be replaced by a bag of holding, or even a mule. Not the most relevant thing. Skill points are options, and options are power. Wisdom is nice, but it's ultimately not as important.

If most skills were a reliable way to solve encounters, I would agree with you. But as this isn't the case, the argument about replacing strength with magic (so that you can have more skill points) doesn't hold up. Strength, like magic, automatically works as a way to solve the problem of hauling treasure, whereas Handle Animal and spending money is still prone to failure.

The relative strength of Wisdom is based on a related point. Rather than give you more unreliable options, a higher Wisdom makes your character less prone to failure.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-12-19, 12:08 AM

Ask to spend a feat to get Int to UMD?

ryu

2013-12-19, 12:09 AM

How are you giving your familiar levels at all?

My personal favorite is true mind switch silliness combined with rather... enigmatic processes.

eggynack

2013-12-19, 12:10 AM

If most skills were a reliable way to solve encounters, I would agree with you. But as this isn't the case, the argument about replacing strength with magic (so that you can have more skill points) doesn't hold up. Strength, like magic, automatically works as a way to solve the problem of hauling treasure, whereas Handle Animal and spending money is still prone to failure.

You don't need most skills to be a reliable way to solve encounters. You just need a few skills to be a reliable way to solve encounters, and they are, and you might need a whole bunch to provide massive utility, because they do. Hauling treasure is really not worth stat points. Seriously. If the stat is good for anything, and it is, it's in its primary utility as a face stabbing engine. You need neither handle animal, nor a significant amount of money for pack animal to be an effective mode of conveyance. Seriously, bags of holding and like items aren't that expensive either, and if you can replace an entire stat with a chunk of change, it's not a good stat.

The relative strength of Wisdom is based on a related point. Rather than give you more unreliable options, a higher Wisdom makes your character less prone to failure.
Marginally, and against a narrow band of threats. You rather underrate how useful skills are, I think.

WbtE

2013-12-19, 12:25 AM

You don't need most skills to be a reliable way to solve encounters. You just need a few skills to be a reliable way to solve encounters, and they are, and you might need a whole bunch to provide massive utility, because they do.

The point on the few reliable skills is non-controversial, but that isn't sufficient to show Intelligence's strength. For the others, what are you measuring this "massive utility" in?

Hauling treasure is really not worth stat points. Seriously. If the stat is good for anything, and it is, it's in its primary utility as a face stabbing engine. You need neither handle animal, nor a significant amount of money for pack animal to be an effective mode of conveyance. Seriously, bags of holding and like items aren't that expensive either, and if you can replace an entire stat with a chunk of change, it's not a good stat.

You don't need to write "seriously". I will assume that you're not joking unless you indicate as much with some kind of emphasis. :smallsmile:

Now, not so seriously - how many bags of holding does a 1st-level character start with? I expect it's similar to the number of staircases he can get a mule to walk down. :smallwink:

ryu

2013-12-19, 12:27 AM

The point on the few reliable skills is non-controversial, but that isn't sufficient to show Intelligence's strength. For the others, what are you measuring this "massive utility" in?

You don't need to write "seriously". I will assume that you're not joking unless you indicate as much with some kind of emphasis. :smallsmile:

Now, not so seriously - how many bags of holding does a 1st-level character start with? I expect it's similar to the number of staircases he can get a mule to walk down. :smallwink:

Actually the pack-mule walks down stairs willingly. He also carries a weapon and is clad in armor. Alternatively druid animal companion.

eggynack

2013-12-19, 12:39 AM

The point on the few reliable skills is non-controversial, but that isn't sufficient to show Intelligence's strength. For the others, what are you measuring this "massive utility" in?
Really depends on the class. In some cases you can pick up the scouting skills: spot, listen, hide, and move silently. In others you can get incidental combat utility, like having high scores in tumble, five ranks in balance, or even by having monster identification knowledges. You could even put extra points into languages, which could come in handy.

You don't need to write "seriously". I will assume that you're not joking unless you indicate as much with some kind of emphasis. :smallsmile:
I am a fan of occasional emphasis. I'm effectively saying that this utility is incredibly low, instead of just less than the stuff I'm mentioning. It's barely even worth consideration.

Somensjev

2013-12-19, 01:04 AM

TuggyNE

2013-12-19, 01:22 AM

Anyway, I know that's how UMD works, but, I figure there has to be an intellectual art to it. Stupid people can be strong, stupid people can be good swimmers, stupid people can do a barrel roll, stupid people can be a lot of things, but stupid people aren't going to fool anyone or anything.

Charisma is a mental stat, like Wisdom and Intelligence. Think about that for a bit.

Roog

2013-12-19, 01:36 AM

Anyway, I know that's how UMD works, but, I figure there has to be an intellectual art to it. Stupid people can be strong, stupid people can be good swimmers, stupid people can do a barrel roll, stupid people can be a lot of things, but stupid people aren't going to fool anyone or anything.

It sounds like you think that CHA shouldn't exist as a stat.

Deophaun

2013-12-19, 02:31 AM

But that's the way it IS in D&D. Magic seems to be very much a precise and almost scientific thing, largely predictable and studied in schools and taught by knowledgeable, talented instructors. The very fact that INT is tied to arcane casting implies, to me, that any facet of arcane magic should be able to be picked up through sheer INT.
Just because D&D has historically presented magic as different physics doesn't make it less of an abomination. It just means the error is stubbornly persistent.

Besides, in 3.5, Int based casting is the exception, not the rule. There are far more Charisma based arcane caster classes than Int-based, especially if you include invocation users.

Deophaun

2013-12-19, 02:51 AM

So this argument got started over whether I could justify using my INT for the UMD instead of my relatively low - 12 - CHA to the DM, because an artificer is right out if you've got bad charisma. It turned into a, "yes, your backstory reasons and your logic is sound, but magic just doesn't work that way" versus "I don't see why it can't!" sort of thing.
Let's see. Level 1, four ranks in UMD, +1 from Charisma. Illiterate trait keyed to UMD for another +1. Shape soulmeld (mage spectacles) for +4 (or +6 if Azuran). If you're a human/azurin you grab Skill Focus (UMD) for +3. So that's +13 or 15 UMD at level 1. As regards activating scrolls, you have a +2 from your artificer class feature, and at level 2 you'll have an additional +4 through synergies, meaning at level 2 a human Artificer should never fail to activate a first level scroll with a 12 Charisma.

Charisma is nice on an Artificer, but it's still a tertiary stat at best. .

CIDE

2013-12-19, 04:49 AM

He thinks it should be INT, because if your smart enough, you can figure it out, and I think it should be CHA, because CHA represents raw, innate magic power, and you manipulate said innate power for UMD.

Since we're clearly going for opinions here I think you're both wrong. Also, I fail to see how Cha is as you say "Raw, innate magic power" when Cha is for all intents and purposes simply your personality. In my mind it takes will power (which somehow despite being Wis based some people still tie to Cha) to get the magic device working.

While Intelligence is the second-worst ability, moving UMD over would make Cha even more of a dump stat.

I think this is the only reason UMD was made to Cha. Cha is universally not as good as other stats. Sure, you can get some awesome things out of it with certain class/race combo's. It's just not as universally important as other stats like say Con.

Which is probably there isn't a Con based casting class out there.

Question: How do you figure out magic? "It's magic" is the end of the explanation, not the begining. The real question is why the heck there are wizards using the scientific method to research spells to begin with.

To answer your own question with the content of your question: It's magic. It doesn't have to make sense to us mere mortals.

The other just overrides it with sheer force of will..

So Wis instead of Cha. Yep.

I believe UMD is CHA-based because you're mostly faking it.
Think about it like this - A wizard uses a wand. He knows the flux of arcane power should go from the bottom half of the shaft to the top in precisely 3.17 seconds, and to keep it stable he should angle it at about 27 degrees, so the excess can flow off and be harmless, and should be moved in a slightly triangular way for best impact.

Someone using UMD doesn't know anything about that. But he knows what a wizard does when he uses the item, and thus copy his exact movements. Kind of like acting. Totally like acting. And I'm pretty sure acting is CHA-based.

That particular line of thinking seems like square-peg-in-round-hole type of logic to me. Make something up to make it fit and all.

You can have all the INT you want to try and figure out how a wand/scroll works, but without the actual magical training/talent to activate it, it's just a dead stick/scroll. UMD bypasses that by being so forceful/convincing that the item itself is 'fooled' into believing you do have said training/talent. You're effectively lying to the laws of metaphysics, which is not easy (hence the relatively high UMD DC's), and so relies on CHA.

That's how I see it.

I still don't understand that line of reasoning. That's assuming that some how these metaphysics have the mental capacity to understand what the hell is going on. Which...makes the least bit of sense in regard to UMD here. While I don't think it's either Int or Cha as first choice I'd still pick Int over Cha. It's a device that does a specific thing. Int allows you to figure out how something works even if you don't already know like solving a puzzle. Wis is your will power to mentally force something to work.

This. Use Magic Device is Bluff (Magic Items).

Bluff an inanimate object.

The reasoning of "because if your smart enough, you can figure it out" could be applied to most anything.

Because it makes sense...?

For the record, the whole reason this discussion got started was because I created a very well-done character for another campaign - a lesser air genasi wizard with 22INT at level 1 - that got aborted. I really liked that guy. And I was thinking about trying out an artificer in another campaign I'm in, and I wanted to keep him mostly as-is with that ridiculous INT score and I was trying to come up with a way to justify not having to deal with my low CHA score as an artificer. More for RPing reasons than anything else, though - I've wanted to play a character like that for a long time, and I've also wanted to play an artificer for a while.

So this argument got started over whether I could justify using my INT for the UMD instead of my relatively low - 12 - CHA to the DM, because an artificer is right out if you've got bad charisma. It turned into a, "yes, your backstory reasons and your logic is sound, but magic just doesn't work that way" versus "I don't see why it can't!" sort of thing.

I'm on your side on this one. That said in my own games I allow the player to chose their UMD stat. Which as much as it should be is surprisingly not a big deal since there's really only ever one person that's ever bothered with UMD (we're not a very magically inclined group) and he used Cha for it.

Now, not so seriously - how many bags of holding does a 1st-level character start with? I expect it's similar to the number of staircases he can get a mule to walk down. :smallwink:

I've never been in a party or used a character that was over encumbered at level 1. Maybe level 2 but generally that much gear was never gathered up and the heavy stuff was distributed rather evenly to the characters already naturally inclined to carry it.

Essentially, my point is I don't think weight has ever been a hinderance in games I've played in until after magical storage and carrying was available.

Charisma is a mental stat, like Wisdom and Intelligence. Think about that for a bit.

A mental stat with a physical property to it going by its description. A mental stat that could be 20 while Int and Wis could be at 5. That said I'm not sure I understand your point for bringing this up at all. Even in the context of responding to the other poster with it.

TuggyNE

2013-12-19, 05:16 AM

A mental stat that could be 20 while Int and Wis could be at 5.

Or Int could be 20 and Wis and Cha 5. That's why there are three mental stats, and not one.

That said I'm not sure I understand your point for bringing this up at all. Even in the context of responding to the other poster with it.

My point was that all three of the mental stats are, well, mental stats: they measure "smartness" in different ways. Wis measures how smart you are at decision-making (especially in cases where decisions must be made fast or between incomparables), staying aware of your environment, and so on. Int measures how smart you are at reasoning, calculating, and analyzing. Cha measures how smart you are at dealing with people or personalities, including yourself, and apparently also magic (given UMD, Bard, Sorcerer, Favored Soul, and so on).

Put another way, if you've ever done something really dumb, it was probably a failed Wis check; if you've ever put down a really dumb answer on a test, it was probably a failed Int check; while if you've ever said something really dumb to someone, it was probably a failed Cha check.

Berenger

2013-12-19, 05:23 AM

SowZ

2013-12-19, 05:24 AM

Skill points are a fetish, but that doesn't make Intelligence a good stat. Strength is better by the book than it is in most people's games, because encumbrance is so frequently house-ruled out of existence. Wisdom grants a bonus against save or lose effects, which is better than what Int and Cha offer.

I'd take an extra 5-24 skill points based on level over a five percent chance to resist Will spells that I can get around half of with mind-blank any day.

CIDE

2013-12-19, 05:33 AM

while if you've ever said something really dumb to someone, it was probably a failed Cha check.

....I probably have really ****ty Cha...:sigh:

SowZ

2013-12-19, 05:38 AM

....I probably have really ****ty Cha...:sigh:

Take ten more often, brah.

Seracain

2013-12-19, 05:41 AM

Since we're clearly going for opinions here I think you're both wrong. Also, I fail to see how Cha is as you say "Raw, innate magic power" when Cha is for all intents and purposes simply your personality. In my mind it takes will power (which somehow despite being Wis based some people still tie to Cha) to get the magic device working.

Per the Player's handbook

Wisdom:
Wisdom describes a character's willpower...

Charisma:
This ability represents actual strength of personality...

They're like con and str for the mind, one is your ability to resist and endure, one is your ability to impact others and exert force on them.

Charisma represents your ability to force a magic item to work with your mind's force. Whether by befuddling it into think you meet it's requirements or by overpowering it with brute mental (lol) force.

This is why non-studied arcane magic is from charisma, it represents the brute forcing of magic.

That's how I see it.

Elderand

2013-12-19, 11:55 AM

i was just going to lurk on this thread, but i have to ask, can i sig this? :smallamused:

that is probably the most realistic reason we will ever find

Go right ahead

Psyren

2013-12-19, 12:06 PM

I think a feat to make it Int-based is reasonable.

Scow2

2013-12-19, 12:19 PM

A mental stat with a physical property to it going by its description. A mental stat that could be 20 while Int and Wis could be at 5. That said I'm not sure I understand your point for bringing this up at all. Even in the context of responding to the other poster with it.The physical property is actually a subjective one. The person isn't high CHA because he's attractive - he's attractive because (s)he has a strong force of personality. The physical properties of people who possess high CHA are percieved as more attractive than the physical properties of people who possess low CHA.

Shining Wrath

2013-12-19, 12:32 PM

And I'll throw in a wild card: it should be Wisdom, because you notice things about the device that let you determine how it should be used.

Being "in tune" with the device and perceptive to how it responds to you touching it / manipulating it would be Wisdom based.

If you really wanted to go to town on making Tier 1 / Tier 2 classes even more uber, you could say that any spell casting class understands a magic device through their prime casting attribute; Wizards figure it out, Clerics perceive how to use it, Sorcerers overwhelm it with their own innate power.

The real conundrum, though, is that Rogues have to be good at this because of the Grey Mouser, before whom all D&D Rogues tremble, and he used a combination of intelligence and charisma as I read my Leiber.

Telonius

2013-12-19, 12:35 PM

Here's how I picture it.

Rules of Magic: Okay, you have to be a high enough level caster, it has to be on your spell list, and ... hey, what are you doing?
Rogue: I'm using the scroll.
Rules of Magic: What? No, you're not. I just said that you have to have a caster level of ...
Rogue: Screw that. There's a scroll here, I'm using it, and that's final.
Rules of Magic: ... fine. :smallmad:

Seems more Charisma-based.

Scow2

2013-12-19, 12:39 PM

If you want to be able to use magic items based on INT, take a dip into Wizard and actually learn how to use the magic you're trying to emulate.

The "I know how to use magic items" part of UMD is accounted for by Skill Points, which are already tied to INT. No double-dipping.

Piggy Knowles

2013-12-19, 12:41 PM

Fax Celestis

2013-12-19, 12:45 PM

Fitz10019

2013-12-19, 01:30 PM

See, now, I always envision UMD as the equivalent of the Fonz fixing something by thumping it with his fist. It doesn't start working because he knew the exact right place to thump it; it works because heeeyyyy, he's the Fonz, of course it worked. When someone has that much Charisma, the universe tends to order itself around that person.

So when you roll badly, and the magic item explodes in your face, that's a Magic saying, 'sit on it, Potsie.'
---

For flavor, I much prefer CHA as the route to use of magic. WIS only through a divine power.

For me, INT as the basis for wizardry works only as an explaination of why technology basically stalled after the watermill, the pulley, and the crossbow. Everyone with enough intelligence to invent instead takes the path (to power) of least resistence, wizardry.

I agree that INT to UMD should be available as a feat, a general feat.

Chronos

2013-12-19, 04:08 PM

The only reason Cha is tied to appearance is because people with high Cha are good at getting others to perceive them how they want to be perceived, and most people want to be perceived as good-looking. Take any trait that's considered attractive, and you can find an actor or actress with the exact opposite of that trait, who's still widely regarded as hot (often for reasons the people doing the regarding can't really explain). That's charisma. Alternately, you have high-charisma people like Churchill, who didn't want to be regarded as "hot", but who instead wanted to be regarded as "dignified" or the like... And pulled it off.

Fax Celestis

2013-12-19, 04:31 PM

Deophaun

2013-12-19, 06:01 PM

Alternately, you have high-charisma people like Churchill, who didn't want to be regarded as "hot", but who instead wanted to be regarded as "dignified" or the like... And pulled it off.
I don't know. I have the Parlament Pin-Up calender from 1942, and Prime Minister July rocks that tank top.

Sith_Happens

2013-12-19, 06:13 PM

Aside from the obvious "You're 'acting' like you know how to use the item" explanation, Charisma seems to be the generic "magicy things" stat.

Mutazoia

2013-12-19, 10:16 PM

I'm sorry...but just how do you figure CHARISMA is going to help you use a wand? What are you going to do stroke it and talk dirty to it until it fires?

eggynack

2013-12-19, 10:19 PM

I'm sorry...but just how do you figure CHARISMA is going to help you use a wand? What are you going to do stroke it and talk dirty to it until it fires?
How do you figure intelligence is going to help you use a wand? Do you spontaneously get magical talent when you become smart enough? Charisma is far more often associated with unlearned magical talent, so it makes far more sense as a stat for wand use.

Fax Celestis

2013-12-19, 10:19 PM

I'm sorry...but just how do you figure CHARISMA is going to help you use a wand? What are you going to do stroke it and talk dirty to it until it fires?

I take it you didn't actually read the whole thread.

ryu

2013-12-19, 10:24 PM

Plus how on earth do you know it isn't just all romantic with that hunk of enchanted wood? You know reading that a second time I realize this entirely more suggestive than I meant it to sound. It is to brilliant of an accident to edit out though.

Psyren

2013-12-19, 10:28 PM

How do you figure intelligence is going to help you use a wand? Do you spontaneously get magical talent when you become smart enough? Charisma is far more often associated with unlearned magical talent, so it makes far more sense as a stat for wand use.

I take it you didn't actually read the whole thread.

No comment on the subtext? :smalltongue:

ryu

2013-12-19, 10:30 PM

No comment on the subtext? :smalltongue:

Got ya covered.

Mutazoia

2013-12-19, 11:58 PM

How do you figure intelligence is going to help you use a wand? Do you spontaneously get magical talent when you become smart enough? Charisma is far more often associated with unlearned magical talent, so it makes far more sense as a stat for wand use.

"This appears to be a Wand of Fireballs. Traditionally Wands of Fireballs have command words in ancient Galgafrinchian translating to 'Flame' or 'Burning' or other words along that line...perhaps I shall try uttering those while wielding the wand."

as opposed to

"Hey there short, stiff and deadly...why don't you slide into my palm and let me wave you around until you explode...maybe you like the rough stuff...want me to flick you a few times?"

eggynack

2013-12-20, 12:05 AM

Starchild7309

2013-12-20, 12:10 AM

Really its like this. I work with a guy. He is dumb as a brick, never been to school for anything but basic education, dropped out as a junior. I have known him all my life. He is the best mechanic I know. When i say mechanic I mean anything that has moving parts. Things that no one else seems to be able to get running her just makes it happen. Motors, computers, electronics, anything you can take apart and put back together he can do it and it works. It is seriously like he just wills it to work. Could the same thing be said about someone that studies technical manuals all the time...sure, but given enough time almost anyone can figure out almost anything.

An arcane spell caster spent years training to know just how to pronounce the words right, to wave the lil stick in the right motion to make it work. Clerics are willed by their God to have their spells and magic items work. Sorcerers have that natural ability. However for the rest of the classes they have UMD which is CHA based because they are half faking and mimicking and half forcing their will of personality on a magic item that shouldn't work for them.

Sure can a smart person figure something out? Yes, but I see the INT user as being too precise in trying to figure something out while in the heat of battle or when the chips are down the CHA user just grabbing the wand or scroll and making it happen.

Sith_Happens

2013-12-20, 01:14 AM

I'm sorry...but just how do you figure CHARISMA is going to help you use a wand? What are you going to do stroke it and talk dirty to it until it fires?

"Hey there short, stiff and deadly...why don't you slide into my palm and let me wave you around until you explode...maybe you like the rough stuff...want me to flick you a few times?"

Okay, secret's out, that is in fact exactly how UMD works.:smalltongue:

Mutazoia

2013-12-20, 07:24 AM

It takes force of will applied outwards, which is defined by charisma.

Ok...if it takes a force of WILL applied outwards....why wouldn't it be Wisdom based then...as WILL saves are WIS based? Charisma is your force of personality, not force of will.

Making Sorc's CHA based was just plain stupid. Wizards study for years and use INT...Clerics pray and use WIS but Sorc's are suppose to cajole, bluff and con magic into working?

Really its like this. I work with a guy. He is dumb as a brick, never been to school for anything but basic education, dropped out as a junior. I have known him all my life. He is the best mechanic I know. When i say mechanic I mean anything that has moving parts. Things that no one else seems to be able to get running her just makes it happen. Motors, computers, electronics, anything you can take apart and put back together he can do it and it works. It is seriously like he just wills it to work. Could the same thing be said about someone that studies technical manuals all the time...sure, but given enough time almost anyone can figure out almost anything.

There's a difference between formal training and being self taught. Personally I'm a good cook. Never had a lesson in my life. Figured it all out myself. I didn't sweet talk the ingredients together, I used trial and error, and read books in my spare time. The guy you work with isn't as dumb as a brick. He be be less formally educated than you, but he's obviously a better mechanic than you because that's where he focused his efforts. Still INT based.

eggynack

2013-12-20, 07:29 AM

Ok...if it takes a force of WILL applied outwards....why wouldn't it be Wisdom based then...as WILL saves are WIS based? Charisma is your force of personality, not force of will.
Have you really not read this thread at all? It was very much pointed out that wisdom is effectively a defense against the force of will of an enemy, while charisma is the application of your own force of will. For example, you attempt to intimidate an enemy, by using charisma, and you resist the intimidation, by using wisdom. Bluffing takes charisma, while sensing the bluffer's motive takes wisdom.

Making Sorc's CHA based was just plain stupid. Wizards study for years and use INT...Clerics pray and use WIS but Sorc's are suppose to cajole, bluff and con magic into working?
It's an inherent part of themselves. They exert their will, and magic occurs.

prufock

2013-12-20, 08:09 AM

And I was thinking about trying out an artificer in another campaign I'm in, and I wanted to keep him mostly as-is with that ridiculous INT score and I was trying to come up with a way to justify not having to deal with my low CHA score as an artificer. More for RPing reasons than anything else, though - I've wanted to play a character like that for a long time, and I've also wanted to play an artificer for a while.

So this argument got started over whether I could justify using my INT for the UMD instead of my relatively low - 12 - CHA to the DM, because an artificer is right out if you've got bad charisma.

Don't be fooled! Intelligence is the artificer's primary ability score, NOT charisma. Granted you don't want it completely dumped, but a charisma 10-14 is just fine. Max out UMD, build yourself an item of UMD +as high as you can manage and keep upgrading it. Charisma matters most at the lower levels, so grab Skill Focus (UMD) and/or Nymph's Kiss and/or Magical Aptitude and maybe retrain it later if your DM allows that.

Nightraiderx

2013-12-20, 10:20 AM

Well I was going to go into the force of will vs. defense of will argument for cha. But I shall expand on my reasoning why UMD is a cha stat-

Intelligence is like Con, it's how much information you can retain inside you.

Wisdom is like Dex, it's how fast one reacts and senses things around you.

Charisma is like Str, in how one pushes and force their environment to their liking.

Use magic device is willing a thing to work, just because I read the manual to how wand A works, a wizard without the spell is going to have difficulty applying it with as much skill as a person who naturally works with items. For example, the Engineer and the Mechanic, the engineer may have the understanding and design of a machine, but doesn't have as much aptitude as the mechanic working on the machines first hand. As the mechanic understands machines at the base but doesn't have as much the extensive knowledge the engineer has in designing the machine.

Edit: The artificier has a 1st level spell that increases one skill of his choice by a proportion of his caster level for a period of time, you can offset less points in CHA with the spell during item creation to make it easier for yourself.

SiuiS

2013-12-20, 10:22 AM

He thinks it should be INT, because if your smart enough, you can figure it out, and I think it should be CHA, because CHA represents raw, innate magic power, and you manipulate said innate power for UMD.

You should probably split it into two skills to be honest. It serves both as a method for the magic "hacker" to bypass user-end limitations by tapping the mystic program code and inputting operations thereby (int), and a kludge wherein those with sufficient spirit could impose their psychic will on it and forge uses that the item should not really have (Cha).

Nightraiderx

2013-12-20, 10:33 AM

To be honest, instead of splitting it apart, I think changing
the Disable Device skill name to Manipulate Device
and having you be able to use Manipulate Device in place of
UMD or having a synergistic effect may be more realistic.
Also having Knowledge play a synergistic effect on UMD of a certain kind
of spellcasting.

Knowledge(Arcane) 5 ranks +2 UMD Wizard/Wujen items
Knowledge(Divine) 5 ranks +2 UMD Cleric/Favored Soul items
Knowledge(Psionics) 5 ranks +2 Use Psionic Device
Knowledge(Nature) 5 ranks +2 UMD Druid/Ranger items
Bluff 5 ranks +2 UMD Sorcerer only items

Scow2

2013-12-20, 10:36 AM

Ok...if it takes a force of WILL applied outwards....why wouldn't it be Wisdom based then...as WILL saves are WIS based? Charisma is your force of personality, not force of will.

Making Sorc's CHA based was just plain stupid. Wizards study for years and use INT...Clerics pray and use WIS but Sorc's are suppose to cajole, bluff and con magic into working?
Charisma is your ability to impose your will on the world. Wisdom is your ability to resist the will of others.

There are only one or two arcane caster classes that uses INT to cast spells. All others use Charisma. Wizards are the exception, not norm, of the rule when it comes to spellcasting.

If you want to use your intelligence to use magic, you need formal training as a Wizard. UMD is NOT a "Wizardry Correspondence Course"

Chronos

2013-12-20, 11:32 AM

There are only one or two arcane caster classes that uses INT to cast spells. All others use Charisma. Wizards are the exception, not norm, of the rule when it comes to spellcasting.
Wizard, wu jen, beguiler, duskblade, and assassin, at least. Plus warmages, while being mostly Cha-based, get some benefit from Int. And psions, truenamers, and artificers aren't precisely arcane, but also have Int as their primary stat.

Fax Celestis

2013-12-20, 11:40 AM

"This appears to be a Wand of Fireballs. Traditionally Wands of Fireballs have command words in ancient Galgafrinchian translating to 'Flame' or 'Burning' or other words along that line...perhaps I shall try uttering those while wielding the wand."

as opposed to

"Hey there short, stiff and deadly...why don't you slide into my palm and let me wave you around until you explode...maybe you like the rough stuff...want me to flick you a few times?"

That is not how Charisma is defined by the game itself.

Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.

You apply your character’s Charisma modifier to:

Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks. These are the skills that have Charisma as their key ability.
Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
Turning checks for clerics and paladins attempting to turn zombies, vampires, and other undead.
Sorcerers and bards get bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a sorcerer or bard spell is 10 + the spell’s level.

Mutazoia

2013-12-20, 05:18 PM

Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.

You apply your character’s Charisma modifier to:
Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks. These are the skills that have Charisma as their key ability.
Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
Turning checks for clerics and paladins attempting to turn zombies, vampires, and other undead.
Sorcerers and bards get bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a sorcerer or bard spell is 10 + the spell’s level.

"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. " No where does it mention will power which, believe it or not, is very different from force of personality. You would be amazed how many people have strong personalities and very little will power (your average movie start in and out of rehab for drug/alcohol abuse for example). The world is full of people that are charming, very well liked and are total pushovers.

Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, are all social skills...then UMD is tacked on at the end. One of these things is not like the others.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FClGhto1vIg)

It was only with the advent of 3.X that Charisma wound up with anything to do with casting ability. INT was always the arcane stat...you couldn't cast spells above specific levels if you didn't have a high enough Int. You had to have an 18 to be able to cast 9th level spells... Wis was always the divine stat...the wiser the cleric the higher level spells he could cast (representing, I suppose, how devout he was and how in tune with his deity he was). Then along comes Sorcerers and hey look...Charisma is suddenly a magic stat.

eggynack

2013-12-20, 05:32 PM

Charisma needs the boost, and it's a logical thing for the stat to do. By my understanding, it was only with the advent of 3.x that charisma wound up with anything to do with anything. That gain in ability is a good thing, because it means that one stat isn't just horrifically worse than all the others. Charisma is your strength of personality, and your ability to influence others. Extending that to your strength of will and ability to influence the world around you makes a pretty good amount of sense. You say, "Hey reality. It is my desire that you do this," and the world changes to reflect your desire. The same happens with wands.

Fax Celestis

2013-12-20, 05:43 PM

"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. " No where does it mention will power which, believe it or not, is very different from force of personality. You would be amazed how many people have strong personalities and very little will power (your average movie start in and out of rehab for drug/alcohol abuse for example). The world is full of people that are charming, very well liked and are total pushovers.

Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, are all social skills...then UMD is tacked on at the end. One of these things is not like the others.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FClGhto1vIg)

It was only with the advent of 3.X that Charisma wound up with anything to do with casting ability. INT was always the arcane stat...you couldn't cast spells above specific levels if you didn't have a high enough Int. You had to have an 18 to be able to cast 9th level spells... Wis was always the divine stat...the wiser the cleric the higher level spells he could cast (representing, I suppose, how devout he was and how in tune with his deity he was). Then along comes Sorcerers and hey look...Charisma is suddenly a magic stat.

You want the short answer that will solve all of your problems? Fine.

Charisma is linked to spontaneous casting, spell-like abilities, and Use Magic Device because otherwise it would be a completely useless stat for anything other than social skills. In 2e, if you weren't a paladin, Charisma was basically useless.

So the mechanical reason is "so it doesn't suck for everyone except for the people who actually have specific class features that explicitly run off of it"--the creation of Charisma-based spellcasters (and later, invokers, meldshapers, binders, shadowcasters, and manifesters) is built off of this principle: it gives the stat something to do.

Charisma: "Intelligence skills, Wisdom saves, Strength hits, and brotha, I cast things." (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Scout)

Lord Vukodlak

2013-12-20, 06:08 PM

Use Magic Device has always been waving the item around and saying random things and hopping it does something. Its why you have to make the check every time you use a staff even if you've already used it a dozen times before. Its why unlike EVERY OTHER skill in the game a natural 1 is an automatic failure.

Your not forcing the universe into making the item work your charming it into making the item work.

You would be amazed how many people have strong personalities and very little will power Which is why wisdom is linked to willpower and charisma is linked to force of personality.

nyjastul69

2013-12-20, 06:37 PM

... Its why unlike EVERY OTHER skill in the game a natural 1 is an automatic failure. ...

This isn't accurate. It's only if you roll a 1 and still fail that there is a special condition. You can roll a 1 with UMD and still succeed.

Kid Jake

2013-12-20, 06:50 PM

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xAGIqVzu6k) is how I've always imagined UMD. Granted that was a poor roll.

Hytheter

2013-12-20, 06:54 PM

Wizard, wu jen, beguiler, duskblade, and assassin, at least.

Don't forget Factotums. :P

Piggy Knowles

2013-12-20, 06:59 PM

It's worth pointing out, while we're talking about whether or not Charisma should determine raw magical power, that Charisma also powers basically every inherent supernatural and spell-like racial ability, from the enslaving of an aboleth to the doom of a zovvut.

Aquillion

2013-12-20, 07:02 PM

Wat? Int is like the best or at least second best and cha only slightly worse. They're both ready-made to be applied to pretty much everything, and like two thirds of the time one is linked directly to casting stat...WbtE means innately, disregarding your class features. Obviously Int is vital if you're a Wizard or Factotum or other Int-based class (just like any stat is vital if your class is built around it.)

But if you don't have a class feature that relies on Int, all it gives you are skill points and bonuses to (mostly less useful) skills. These things are nice, but compare to the other stats:

Strength: Melee accuracy, melee damage, carrying capacity. Vital to classes that need accuracy (although it's a dump stat if you don't, so I might say WbtE is wrong here.)

Dexterity: AC, especially touch AC, which is vital to everyone without exception. Initiative, vital to everyone. Also Reflex saves; they're generally the least important saves, but they're still a save.

Constitution: Hit points and fort save. Enough said. The only time Constitution isn't vital is if you're playing something that doesn't have it.

Wisdom: Will save, which is vital to everyone. Several important skills, including many 'passive' ones that are useful to have a good modifier for even if you're not the main expert in your party and even if you're using them untrained. Not quite as vital as Dex or Con, but you don't want to dump it if you can avoid it.

...compared to these, most classes just don't really need too many skill points, and the skills int improves generally aren't very universally-useful. So if you're not a caster or factotum, int is a very common dump stat.

Charisma, meanwhile, is only useful for skills, class abilities, and other special-case powers. If you don't intend to use Charisma skills (which, aside from UMD, are generally of the sort where you only need one person who has them in your party; and UMD is hard to do anything with untrained), and aren't playing a class with Charisma-based features, it is totally useless to you. There's a reason why it's infamous as a dump stat and why we use "munchkin" (small ugly humanoids!) to refer to powergamers.

(Sure, there's a lot of powers out there that use Charisma, but that's precisely because it has no other use, so the game forces you to invest in it as a balancing factor for magical might or the like. If you don't have one of those powers and aren't using diplomacy skills, it's still pretty useless.)

ryu

2013-12-20, 07:10 PM

WbtE means innately, disregarding your class features. Obviously Int is vital if you're a Wizard or Factotum or other Int-based class (just like any stat is vital if your class is built around it.)

But if you don't have a class feature that relies on Int, all it gives you are skill points and bonuses to (mostly less useful) skills. These things are nice, but compare to the other stats:

Strength: Melee accuracy, melee damage, carrying capacity. Vital to classes that need accuracy (although it's a dump stat if you don't, so I might say WbtE is wrong here.)

Dexterity: AC, especially touch AC, which is vital to everyone without exception. Initiative, vital to everyone. Also Reflex saves; they're generally the least important saves, but they're still a save.

Constitution: Hit points and fort save. Enough said. The only time Constitution isn't vital is if you're playing something that doesn't have it.

Wisdom: Will save, which is vital to everyone. Several important skills, including many 'passive' ones that are useful to have a good modifier for even if you're not the main expert in your party and even if you're using them untrained. Not quite as vital as Dex or Con, but you don't want to dump it if you can avoid it.

...compared to these, most classes just don't really need too many skill points, and the skills int improves generally aren't very universally-useful. So if you're not a caster or factotum, int is a very common dump stat.

Charisma, meanwhile, is only useful for skills and class abilities, fullstop. If you don't intend to use Charisma skills (which, aside from UMD, are generally of the sort where you only need one person who has them in your party; and UMD is hard to do anything with untrained), and aren't playing a class with Charisma-based features, it is totally useless to you. There's a reason why it's infamous as a dump stat and why we use "munchkin" (small ugly humanoids!) to refer to powergamers.

Except with even moderate levels of system mastery it becomes blatantly obvious that either of those stats can be applied to literally whatever you want. This can be HP, saves, AC, And an entire host of generally useful things across the system. As a matter of fact int is the only stat I absolutely refuse to dump entirely unless I'm using similar tricks for cha.

eggynack

2013-12-20, 07:10 PM

WbtE means innately, disregarding your class features. Obviously Int is vital if you're a Wizard or Factotum or other Int-based class (just like any stat is vital if your class is built around it.)

But if you don't have a class feature that relies on Int, all it gives you are skill points and bonuses to (mostly less useful) skills. These things are nice, but compare to the other stats:

Strength: Melee accuracy, melee damage, carrying capacity. Vital to classes that need accuracy (although it's a dump stat if you don't, so I might say WbtE is wrong here.)

Dexterity: AC, especially touch AC, which is vital to everyone without exception. Initiative, vital to everyone. Also Reflex saves; they're generally the least important saves, but they're still a save.

Constitution: Hit points and fort save. Enough said. The only time Constitution isn't vital is if you're playing something that doesn't have it.

Wisdom: Will save, which is vital to everyone. Several important skills, including many 'passive' ones that are useful to have a good modifier for even if you're not the main expert in your party and even if you're using them untrained. Not quite as vital as Dex or Con, but you don't want to dump it if you can avoid it.

...compared to these, most classes just don't really need too many skill points, and the skills int improves aren't very useful. So if you're not a caster or factotum, int is a very common dump stat.

Charisma, meanwhile, is only useful for skills and class abilities, fullstop. If you don't intend to use Charisma skills (which, aside from UMD, are generally of the sort where you only need one person who has them in your party; and UMD is hard to do anything with untrained), and aren't playing a class with Charisma-based features, it is totally useless to you. There's a reason why it's infamous as a dump stat and why we use "munchkin" (small ugly humanoids!) to refer to powergamers.
Skill points can be greatly important, depending on what your list looks like. I'd probably put the intrinsic value of intelligence at second or third as a result. Con is definitely more important, dex is about equal, and wisdom is somewhat lower. However you rank it, intelligence is definitely not a bad stat to put points in, and it certainly doesn't deserve such pity that you should assign skills to it as a result.

Aquillion

2013-12-20, 07:12 PM

"This appears to be a Wand of Fireballs. Traditionally Wands of Fireballs have command words in ancient Galgafrinchian translating to 'Flame' or 'Burning' or other words along that line...perhaps I shall try uttering those while wielding the wand."That's not intelligence, that's knowledge, which is represented by the fact that a wizard doesn't need UMD to activate items with wizard spells in them.

(Granted fiction confuses intelligence and knowledge all the time, so it wouldn't be that surprising to allow a high Int mod to let you play Sherlock Holmes.)

Scow2

2013-12-20, 07:15 PM

"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. " No where does it mention will power which, believe it or not, is very different from force of personality. You would be amazed how many people have strong personalities and very little will power (your average movie start in and out of rehab for drug/alcohol abuse for example). The world is full of people that are charming, very well liked and are total pushovers.

Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, are all social skills...then UMD is tacked on at the end. One of these things is not like the others.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FClGhto1vIg)

It was only with the advent of 3.X that Charisma wound up with anything to do with casting ability. INT was always the arcane stat...you couldn't cast spells above specific levels if you didn't have a high enough Int. You had to have an 18 to be able to cast 9th level spells... Wis was always the divine stat...the wiser the cleric the higher level spells he could cast (representing, I suppose, how devout he was and how in tune with his deity he was). Then along comes Sorcerers and hey look...Charisma is suddenly a magic stat.Force of Will is not Willpower. They can be total pushovers - but they're also people who can push others over. CHA is Mental Strength, while Wisdom is Mental Fortitude, and INT is mental flexibility.

Lord Vukodlak

2013-12-20, 07:23 PM

Force of Will is not Willpower. They can be total pushovers - but they're also people who can push others over. CHA is Mental Strength, while Wisdom is Mental Fortitude, and INT is mental flexibility.
Ohh that's a good comparison.

Faily

2013-12-20, 07:24 PM

Remember that in most campaign there is a god or godess of magic.
Keeping that in mind one can therefore say that UMD being cha based is going to have the following result.

"Awww, look at that mortal trying to use a scroll, isn't he adorable ? who's a good mortal ? You are, yes you are. Here have a fireball"

That is priceless, and will forever be the best explanation on how UMD works in my mind. :smallbiggrin: Hat off to you, sir.

The Glyphstone

2013-12-20, 10:57 PM

Knowing that Wands of Fireballs traditionally have command words in ancient Gallifringian and trying random Gallifringian words until it shoots fireballs is ranks in UMD. Waving the wand around and yelling 'WORK, DAMMIT' and other incoherent gibberish until you accidentally say the right word in ancient Gallifringian it shoots fireballs is a high Charisma modifier. Combine them (ranks+Cha mod) and you're swearing in ancient Gallifringian while you try out random words.

Thiyr

2013-12-20, 11:27 PM

Aquillion

2013-12-21, 12:16 AM

This just reminds me of why the more i think about it, the more I feel divine casters should be Cha based and spont-arcane should be wis based. Cha is all about force of personality. Convincing people of stuff. "Hey Pelor, you should TOTALLY give me that miracle spell. I'll make great use of it!"

Wis is the stat of intuition. What better stat to represent someone who simply has power and knows what to do with it? Or, in the case of UMD, to just figure out what to do. To guess accurately based on random tidbits that they're probably not aware they know of. Guessing better than the other guy. Alas, the weight of precedent outrules me.Look at it like this. As a cleric, you don't have back-and-forth conversations with your deity, generally; to get their favor and invoke their powers, you have to understand them and their teachings on a deep personal level. You're not haggling, you're invoking a long-established contract by exhibiting a detailed understanding of the deity, their philosophy, and their teachings (or, if you're a cleric of a philosophy, you're just using your understanding of the philosophy directly) -- that's Wisdom.

Clerics and Druids are about how well they understand the world (or some aspect of it, or some or entity within it), so they can benefit from that understanding via implicit or explicit contracts with higher powers. They're not about forcing the universe to their will with a mathematically precise understanding of its laws like a Wizard or with their personal force like a Sorcerer.

Notice that there is a class with a direct personal relationship with their higher power; that's the Favored Soul, and they do use Charisma-based casting. But druids and clerics are more like, say, an old man who can read the weather well enough to turn it to his advantage, rather than someone who directly bargains with storms.

Elderand

2013-12-21, 11:40 AM

Notice that there is a class with a direct personal relationship with their higher power; that's the Favored Soul, and they do use Charisma-based casting.

Note that favored soul don't use just Cha but also Wis for their casting. But that can be explained easily.

How many spells you get is based on your charisma, essentialy it's a masure of how big a crush the god who give you your spells has for you. The higher the Cha the bigger the crush, the more spells you get.

Wisdom determine how hard your spells are to resist. That's your understanding of your god and how it's energies affect the world.

Being a favored soul is like having a stalker who leave gifts for you and to use those gifts you need to solve a riddle that only make sense once you understand how your stalker relate to the world.

ninjamaster1991

2013-12-25, 11:35 AM

I, myself, have a different explanation. I think the mental stats line up with the physical stats like:

INT -> STR
WIS -> CON
CHA -> DEX

Int is raw mind-power as well as conscious use, WIS is how you defend against others' mind-power, and CHA is unconscious stuff like confidence and people skills, much like Dexterity is your subconscious movements, like reflexes. UMD is more the magical equivalent of Disable Device or Open Lock; you don't know how it works, but you know that if you use your innate magic to caress it juuust right, you can make a wand do what you want it to do.

Scow2

2013-12-25, 12:07 PM

Note that favored soul don't use just Cha but also Wis for their casting. But that can be explained easily.

How many spells you get is based on your charisma, essentialy it's a masure of how big a crush the god who give you your spells has for you. The higher the Cha the bigger the crush, the more spells you get.

Wisdom determine how hard your spells are to resist. That's your understanding of your god and how it's energies affect the world.

Being a favored soul is like having a stalker who leave gifts for you and to use those gifts you need to solve a riddle that only make sense once you understand how your stalker relate to the world.And because Favored Souls don't have Knowledge(Religion) as a class skill, they have no idea who their stalker is.

Dalebert

2013-12-26, 12:21 PM

Character with UMD: the campaign equivalent of internet cat videos

I'm late to this thread, obviously, and I know it's been said many times now, but before I even read all those, I already knew I had to tell you this was sig-worthy.

See, now, I always envision UMD as the equivalent of the Fonz fixing something by thumping it with his fist.

I love that imagery. Now I'm going to have to have some NPC do exactly that on some weird magic item.

You would be amazed how many people have strong personalities and very little will power (your average movie start in and out of rehab for drug/alcohol abuse for example). The world is full of people that are charming, very well liked and are total pushovers.

Which fits perfectly with what's been said many times now--how CHA seems to be about manipulating the world around you and WIS seems to be about resisting outside influences.

Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, are all social skills...then UMD is tacked on at the end.

But it is like the others. It's about being manipulative.

It was only with the advent of 3.X that Charisma wound up with anything to do with casting ability. INT was always the arcane stat...you couldn't cast spells above specific levels if you didn't have a high enough Int. You had to have an 18 to be able to cast 9th level spells... Wis was always the divine stat...the wiser the cleric the higher level spells he could cast (representing, I suppose, how devout he was and how in tune with his deity he was). Then along comes Sorcerers and hey look...Charisma is suddenly a magic stat.

2.0 is largely looked upon in hindsight as horribly broken with little effort toward balance. 3.5, while still having issues, tried to balance out a lot of things and is largely seen as a vast improvement by most. I'm sure there are fans of 2.0 over 3.5 around, but I get the feeling it's because they want to take advantage of all the potential exploits to do broken things. Similar reasoning seems to be behind fans of 3.5 over PF. PF fixed a lot of potential exploits. People who have learned how to make 3.5 their bitch don't want to give that power up.

killem2

2013-12-26, 12:40 PM

I didn't read through the entire thread, so I apologize if I am repeating the same thing someone else has already said.

I like to think of the CHA based UMD as the correct way, because you are basically "bluffing" what otherwise would be the command word to activate the spell.

Dalebert

2013-12-26, 01:05 PM

I like to think of the CHA based UMD as the correct way, because you are basically "bluffing" what otherwise would be the command word to activate the spell.

Several times now, people have mentioned command words for items that are probably spell trigger items. Those aren't command word items. Command word activation items are usually usable by anyone without UMD, at least once you know the command word. A lot of wondrous items are described as such.

Talya

2013-12-26, 01:10 PM

As for UMD in particular, the idea is that while others may use their knowledge and learning to fuel their magic, you're basically just faking it, tricking the item into believing that you're of the right race or alignment.

This is the key. In order for you to figure out how to use a magic device academically, requires study and ability. You get that by taking levels in a casting class that has access to the spells required to use the wand/scroll/staff. If it's a wondrous item or something, you can do it with spellcraft and knowledge (arcana) which are both INT skills.

Using UMD has nothing to do with knowledge, or experience. It's about using the raw force of your personality to convince the item that you have that prerequisites and therefore let you activate it.

Thiyr

2013-12-26, 01:15 PM

Look at it like this. As a cleric, you don't have back-and-forth conversations with your deity, generally; to get their favor and invoke their powers, you have to understand them and their teachings on a deep personal level. You're not haggling, you're invoking a long-established contract by exhibiting a detailed understanding of the deity, their philosophy, and their teachings (or, if you're a cleric of a philosophy, you're just using your understanding of the philosophy directly) -- that's Wisdom.

Clerics and Druids are about how well they understand the world (or some aspect of it, or some or entity within it), so they can benefit from that understanding via implicit or explicit contracts with higher powers. They're not about forcing the universe to their will with a mathematically precise understanding of its laws like a Wizard or with their personal force like a Sorcerer.

Notice that there is a class with a direct personal relationship with their higher power; that's the Favored Soul, and they do use Charisma-based casting. But druids and clerics are more like, say, an old man who can read the weather well enough to turn it to his advantage, rather than someone who directly bargains with storms.

While I can kinda see that, in a traditional cosmology I find that, even if its not a direct haggling, it comes down to the source of the power. Divine magic is almost 100% sourced from a deity. The cleric asks, and the gods provide. As it is wholly external, understanding doesn't make a whole ton of difference, nor do the things that typically restrain arcane casters (like spell failure). Even if they aren't actively trying, then, the gods grant more of their power to those who are more compelling. There is a personification on the other end of it to BE convinced in the first place. spont arcane casters, on the other hand, are bringing up power from within themselves. There's nobody to cajole or talk to about lobbing that fireball, just a lot of willpower and, as i mentioned before, intuition as to how it all works. Both of these are things associated with wisdom, so its kinda a solid match in my eyes.

Not to say I can't justify other ways of looking at it. I could probably justify str based casting if i tried. But the easiest way to do it for me is that flop around.

Samalpetey

2013-12-26, 01:22 PM

Talya

2013-12-26, 01:26 PM

Scow2

2013-12-26, 01:35 PM

2.0 is largely looked upon in hindsight as horribly broken with little effort toward balance. 3.5, while still having issues, tried to balance out a lot of things and is largely seen as a vast improvement by most. I'm sure there are fans of 2.0 over 3.5 around, but I get the feeling it's because they want to take advantage of all the potential exploits to do broken things. Similar reasoning seems to be behind fans of 3.5 over PF. PF fixed a lot of potential exploits. People who have learned how to make 3.5 their bitch don't want to give that power up.Actually, 2.0 was much better in terms of balance than 3.0/3.5, excluding the untested "Players Options" line.

Fighters had Nice Things - Plenty of attacks/round that didn't do obscene damage, Con-to-HP, tax-free combat options that 3.5 restricted to Feat Only, and the best Save Progression in the game. Mages, while they possessed a similar amount of raw power as they do in 3.0 (Minus a lot of broken spells like Celerity), their biggest/most game-breaking spells had self-inflicted save-or-sucks attached to discourage them from routine use, and while they had a large number of spell slots (Much smaller than 3.5's wizards, though), the amount of time needed to prepare spells meant that you DIDN'T want to blow through all your prepared spells in one day - and, spellcasting generally ensured you always went last in a round.

Thieves... well, no edition has been able to handle rogues well.

Mutazoia

2013-12-26, 02:05 PM

But it is like the others. It's about being manipulative.

Using UMD has nothing to do with knowledge, or experience. It's about using the raw force of your personality to convince the item that you have that prerequisites and therefore let you activate it.

Ok...I'll bite.

How do you bluff an inanimate object, with no intelligence what so ever, into working?

let's try an experiment. Close your bedroom door. Now bluff, cajole, con or otherwise talk it into opening with out touching it (or getting some one else to open it for you).

DeusMortuusEst

2013-12-26, 02:11 PM

Ok...I'll bite.

How do you bluff an inanimate object, with no intelligence what so ever, into working?

let's try an experiment. Close your bedroom door. Now bluff, cajole, con or otherwise talk it into opening with out touching it (or getting some one else to open it for you).

You don't in the real world, because magic does not happen here. You do in D&D because magic happens there.

Besides, you can't cajole your non-magical bedroom door to opening in D&D either, unless you use magic. The difference is only where the magic resides, in you or in the item.

Scow2

2013-12-26, 02:16 PM

Ok...I'll bite.

How do you bluff an inanimate object, with no intelligence what so ever, into working?

let's try an experiment. Close your bedroom door. Now bluff, cajole, con or otherwise talk it into opening with out touching it (or getting some one else to open it for you).Magic is not an inanimate, inert force. It is alive, primal, and sympathetic, and reacts to the the whims of the world and all its creatures, places, and things.

Fax Celestis

2013-12-26, 03:10 PM

Ok...I'll bite.

How do you bluff an inanimate object, with no intelligence what so ever, into working?

let's try an experiment. Close your bedroom door. Now bluff, cajole, con or otherwise talk it into opening with out touching it (or getting some one else to open it for you).

Your assumption that magic is unintelligent is unfounded.

We have every indication that it is, including UMD's cha-centriticty, the presence of cha-based casters, and the existence of intelligent magic items (and in the case of legacy items, developing intelligence over time).

Talya

2013-12-26, 03:13 PM

To be fair, I don't think a typical +1 item has "intelligence" the way we think of characters. That's why Intelligent Items are enumerated separately.

However, they do have a will and life of sorts. (And, in fact, they are entitled to their own saving throws.)

killem2

2013-12-26, 05:11 PM

Several times now, people have mentioned command words for items that are probably spell trigger items. Those aren't command word items. Command word activation items are usually usable by anyone without UMD, at least once you know the command word. A lot of wondrous items are described as such.

I wasn't claiming that rings and other magic items use or don't use spell triggers and wands/scrolls ect do or don't, I was just trying to get the point across.

You and many others are trying to place a sense of logic into this, and that never turns out well.

I'm not sure what it is called when you meet the requirements to make a spell go POP from a wand, call it wicked vudu juju, for all I care, point is, that scroll or wand wants its wicked vudu juju before it allows you to use it, and charisma is faking it out.

Thiyr

2013-12-26, 05:13 PM

Yes, the gods don't need convincing to give you magic. As a cleric, you are their instrument. They use you, you don't use them. You need wisdom to understand and apply the boons they provide you with to accomplish their will. It's not about force of personality.

Who's to say its an active thing though? What I'm saying is less "Oi Pelor, fork over that sunny' mojo" and more "I need to dispense my power across the lands. All these prayers for Sunburst. Should I give it to ol' Shady Johnny, or should I give it to that dapper young up-and-coming member of my clergy?". Shady Johnny may still get the spell, as he's still present in his deity's eyes, but the other guy, by nature of just seeming more important, gets pelor's favor. On the other hand, that description of wisdom makes it seem like those gifts are there for every cleric (heck, every person, assuming anyone can become a cleric), but you're being denied them until you understand them enough, which seems odd for me. If it isn't the cleric's power, just them acting as a conduit for the deity's power, why do they need to understand what they're doing?

(also, given that the bulk of issues with my thinking are on the side of "here's why clerics should be keyed off of wis", what on the thoughts for sorcs being based on wis?)

Curmudgeon

2013-12-26, 06:37 PM

Any skill which has an Activate Blindly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm#activateBlindly) use shouldn't be INT-based; that's entirely inconsistent with reasoning as the way to get items to function. You might argue for DEX, WIS, or CHA, but INT is a really bad fit for the skill as written.

Talya

2013-12-26, 06:43 PM

Who's to say its an active thing though? What I'm saying is less "Oi Pelor, fork over that sunny' mojo" and more "I need to dispense my power across the lands. All these prayers for Sunburst. Should I give it to ol' Shady Johnny, or should I give it to that dapper young up-and-coming member of my clergy?". Shady Johnny may still get the spell, as he's still present in his deity's eyes, but the other guy, by nature of just seeming more important, gets pelor's favor. On the other hand, that description of wisdom makes it seem like those gifts are there for every cleric (heck, every person, assuming anyone can become a cleric), but you're being denied them until you understand them enough, which seems odd for me. If it isn't the cleric's power, just them acting as a conduit for the deity's power, why do they need to understand what they're doing?

Except you're a god, and you have a clergy, it's no skin off your back to grant it to all of them. It's what you do. You don't even need to think about it. That's what your clergy is for. Now, Julie over there, she's got charisma out the wazoo, and she impresses you with her dedication to your ideals, and draws your attention with her massive t... umm...incredibly strong force of personality. You favour her soul, and send her magic differently than your clergy. (Although she still needs wisdom to use it well...favored souls have a split casting stat.)

(also, given that the bulk of issues with my thinking are on the side of "here's why clerics should be keyed off of wis", what on the thoughts for sorcs being based on wis?)

Why would we want to ruin sorcerers? They're perfect where they are. They tell reality to sit down and shut up, and reality is either impressed enough, or intimidated enough to listen to them.

Charisma is the one stat I never completely dump on any character...I want MORE charisma-based abilities, not fewer. You can be a tier 1 batman-god wizard, but without charisma, you're just a putz. Heroes are larger than life, eye-catching, imagination-grabbing paragons of personality.

Jlerpy

2013-12-26, 08:36 PM

Nananananananana, Batputz!

Thiyr

2013-12-26, 09:16 PM

Except you're a god, and you have a clergy, it's no skin off your back to grant it to all of them. It's what you do. You don't even need to think about it. That's what your clergy is for. Now, Julie over there, she's got charisma out the wazoo, and she impresses you with her dedication to your ideals, and draws your attention with her massive t... umm...incredibly strong force of personality. You favour her soul, and send her magic differently than your clergy. (Although she still needs wisdom to use it well...favored souls have a split casting stat.)

Why would we want to ruin sorcerers? They're perfect where they are. They tell reality to sit down and shut up, and reality is either impressed enough, or intimidated enough to listen to them.

Charisma is the one stat I never completely dump on any character...I want MORE charisma-based abilities, not fewer. You can be a tier 1 batman-god wizard, but without charisma, you're just a putz. Heroes are larger than life, eye-catching, imagination-grabbing paragons of personality.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take away cha-based goodies. But again, coming from largely the fluff end of it all, it seems odd that someone can alter reality just by being that darn convincing. That's actually where this whole line of thought came from for me. As magic wells up from within, coursing out, you determine how it is released. not by instinct, but by intuition, a natural-born arcanist. That's all wis.

(and in regards to the god giving power to all their clerics evenly, why don't gods, especially those that seek to inspire their followers, give out their power more broadly then? It doesn't cost them anything, and can only help to bring in a greater degree of faith, potentially more converts as well? It doesn't mesh there, so I'd figure there has to be at least some kind of limit to it. If there's a limit, then the god is going to if not do it him/herself, at least delegate the task of diverting his power off to the proper channels. And from there, being the one to seem most important/most in need would start making a difference, I'd think.)

Jlerpy

2013-12-26, 09:50 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take away cha-based goodies. But again, coming from largely the fluff end of it all, it seems odd that someone can alter reality just by being that darn convincing.

Other way around. You are convincing because of the power you project by your words.

That's actually where this whole line of thought came from for me. As magic wells up from within, coursing out, you determine how it is released. not by instinct, but by intuition, a natural-born arcanist. That's all wis.

Again, understanding is not power. Wisdom lets you access the power of the divine by intuitive feeling of a deity. Charisma let's you push your own will onto world.

(and in regards to the god giving power to all their clerics evenly, why don't gods, especially those that seek to inspire their followers, give out their power more broadly then? It doesn't cost them anything, and can only help to bring in a greater degree of faith, potentially more converts as well? It doesn't mesh there, so I'd figure there has to be at least some kind of limit to it. If there's a limit, then the god is going to if not do it him/herself, at least delegate the task of diverting his power off to the proper channels. And from there, being the one to seem most important/most in need would start making a difference, I'd think.)

They don't hand out power equally. It's limited by the mortal's grasp of the divine: Wisdom and Cleric level.

Dalebert

2013-12-26, 10:01 PM

In Pathfinder, there's a trait by the name of "Pragmatic Activator" that lets you use Int instead of Cha for UMD.

You should talk to your DM about whether he'll allow it in 3.5. Here's the reference: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/pragmatic-activator

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take away cha-based goodies. But again, coming from largely the fluff end of it all, it seems odd that someone can alter reality just by being that darn convincing.

A lot of things are "odd" in a fantasy setting. One big one is that magic exists, making the impossible possible. The rules of magic are completely made-up and part of the made-up rules is that CHA is the mental factor that has to do with manipulating magic through force of will. So in this particular world with these particular magic rules, that's how it's done. It's fairly arbitrary but it's also fairly consistent.

That's actually where this whole line of thought came from for me. As magic wells up from within, coursing out, you determine how it is released. not by instinct, but by intuition, a natural-born arcanist. That's all wis.

But as has been made clear, WIS isn't all of it. It's only the passive, defensive side of will and intuition. The aggressive, more manipulative side of it is CHA.

It doesn't cost them anything, and can only help to bring in a greater degree of faith, potentially more converts as well? It doesn't mesh there, so I'd figure there has to be at least some kind of limit to it.

I imagine there's a cost but one that's pretty trivial to a god. And there is a limit. There's only so much power that a mortal can channel through their body and mind and it goes up as they get better at it, i.e. as they level.

Thiyr

2013-12-26, 11:22 PM

But as has been made clear, WIS isn't all of it. It's only the passive, defensive side of will and intuition. The aggressive, more manipulative side of it is CHA.

Except that if we go by the descriptions of these stats, that isn't the case.

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

Wisdom is explicitly about willpower, common sense, and intuition. Not "defensive intution" or "willpower to resist", but willpower in general. Charisma is purely a measure of interaction. It has nothing about willpower (you can have a tremendous force of personality and a lack of willpower), and nothing about intuition. The only way that you can get to the idea is in an attempt to justify the way they used the two stats. And while they're consistent, and I'm not gonna walk into a game and ask "Hey, can I swap these stats", nor am I going to do that in the game I'm gonna be running shortly (because really, it's not worth the effort remembering it, to be honest), I still find that given these base definitions, plus the description of sorcerer's typical backgrounds in the phb (They don't know what they're doing until they either chance onto a mentor to help them understand, or they "eventually...understand the power that he has been wielding unintentionally") and a blurb in their alignment "For a sorcerer, magic is an intuitive art" (emphasis mine), it fits their description of wisdom to a T.

Also, going over the class descriptions in the PHB again, "A cleric uses the power of his god to make his god's will manifest." Doesn't sound as much like the god is using the cleric as much as the other way around. Plus, that fits a bit easier with the idea of the cleric choosing the spells they have prepped. That said, looking back, it does state that clerics get their spells "through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration". These seem to suggest either WIS (strength of faith sure sounds like willpower to me) or CHA (divine inspiration means you had to have convinced something divine to inspire you).

As far as "Its fantasy so it can be odd", I still tend to like applying some kind of rationale to the _why_ of it all. I don't tend to see a whole lot of examples of cha working as a source of magical might outside of situations where bargaining is going on in other media. Cha could make you better at furycrafting in Alera (as the only example i can think of offhand), but typically it's otherwise going to be how well you know your rituals, or how much raw will you're throwing at the metaphysical wall. It may be consistent as far as their mechanics, but consistent argumentation from a flawed premise is still flawed.

Scow2

2013-12-27, 02:28 AM

georgie_leech

2013-12-27, 02:42 AM

Thiyr, what does "Force of Personality" actually mean to you? I think that might be where the disconnect is occurring.

Talya

2013-12-27, 08:14 AM

Mutazoia

2013-12-27, 12:08 PM

in usage, intelligence is mental dexterity: it is about using finesse and physics (or in this case, metaphysics) to ensure things move in the direction you want them to. wisdom is me mental constitution: it is having the toughness to endure, both the mental assaults of others, and the debilitating glory of a divine presence. charisma is mental strength: it is the force of personality that allows you to change the minds of others, or even brute force the whims of magic, bending existence to your own will, with merely the strength of your being.

But by every definition (PHB included) Wisdom is all about willpower...and you can't divide willpower into offensive and defensive. Willpower is willpower is willpower. Charisma may be force of personality..but personality has nothing to do with willpower. You can be the most charismatic person in the world and still lack willpower. Think of Dr. Smith from (the original) Lost in Space. The man could talk the Robinson's into a lot of stuff, but he had no willpower...he backed down easily, was a total coward, and often tried to sell the others up the river when his own life was at stake. Every episode he would talk Will into doing something that Will knew was wrong...and then totally go to pieces and run when things went south.

Or take Charlie Sheen. Charismatic, popular, good looking....and how many times has he been in and out of rehab?

Charisma has nothing to do with willpower...it's not your source of "offensive willpower" It's social interaction only. They tacked UMD on to Charisma because it didn't have any other skills linked to it that were not totally social based. They threw it a bone.

Talya

2013-12-27, 12:48 PM

But by every definition (PHB included) Wisdom is all about willpower...and you can't divide willpower into offensive and defensive. Willpower is willpower is willpower.

Nowhere do I call it "offensive willpower," because that would be confusing (although in vernacular English, Willpower can be defined like that.) I will quote myself.

"Charisma is mental strength: it is the force of personality that allows you to change the minds of others, or even brute force the whims of magic, bending existence to your own will, with merely the strength of your being."

Charisma (Cha)

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

So once again, Charisma is to Strength, as Wisdom is to Constitution.

Thiyr

2013-12-27, 01:23 PM

Willpower is entirely defensive. All "offensive" uses of willpower amount to the mental equivalent of blocking punches with your face until the opponent breaks his fist against it.

Force of Personality and Personal Magnetism are where Charisma gets "On the offensive" and pushing magic around.

See, but that doesn't follow. Willpower is not "entirely defensive", as was demonstrated above. (and Talya, I think this is where the whole offensive willpower thing came up.) Even within the mechanics of d&d, active uses of willpower are oftentimes tied to wis. An afflicted lycanthrope's Control Shape skill is keyed off of wis. Autohypnosis, the practically iconic "mind over matter" skill, is wis based. Shapesand and chaos flasks both work off of wis checks. Lucid dreaming is wis based. And a great deal of these are described as exerting your will/doing these feats by way of willpower.

Thiyr, what does "Force of Personality" actually mean to you? I think that might be where the disconnect is occurring.

...Thank you. And normally I'm the one calling for definitions to help clear stuff up, so its mildly embarrassing that I did this myself. That said, force of personality is, in my eyes, a somewhat self-explanatory term. It is, in a sense, the footprint that someone's personality has. Oddly, the first example of this I can think of offhand would be Jay and Silent Bob as characters. Jay is loud, talkative, and in general, what he does oftentimes gets ignored by other individuals. Bob, on the other hand, may not talk often, but if he does, people listen. It is a passive thing, the gravity that your words and actions have when perceived by others.

in usage, intelligence is mental dexterity: it is about using finesse and physics (or in this case, metaphysics) to ensure things move in the direction you want them to. wisdom is me mental constitution: it is having the toughness to endure, both the mental assaults of others, and the debilitating glory of a divine presence. charisma is mental strength: it is the force of personality that allows you to change the minds of others, or even brute force the whims of magic, bending existence to your own will, with merely the strength of your being.

Except that there are all sorts of exceptions to this, and the mental ability scores tend to be a lot more fluid than the physical ones. The uses of wis earlier in this post sure don't feel like endurance, as much as they do an exertation of mental force. Cha as mental strength seems (to me) to be hinged on casting (which would start making this argument circular. cha is mental strength because casting, casting is based on cha because mental strength), as otherwise it all goes back to social dealing, which I find more often is more comprable to dex, maneuvering people with your words into feeling or acting how you want them to. In regards to the bit you posted from the srd there, that seems more to say that your cha won't go up if you get really good PR. A celebrated hero won't have a higher cha. Personality =/= will.

Even int, the most cut-and-dried of the mental stats as I've seen, is murky. Ones ability to brute-force problems (be they math, riddles, etc), is governed by int. And ones ability to retain information is typically governed by int, which feels like a long-term mental endurance (except when its governed by wis, that is, in the form of autohypnosis). And int lacks any default defensive abilities that would be associated with dex. It is almost pure offense there. They're all so muddy that there is no clear parallel. Its why I can work with the standard array of how it works, even if I think it makes more sense in another arrangement.

edit: also, interesting note. When attempting to see if there is a standard definition of "force of personality" outside of d&d, google gave me...a bunch of d&d stuff. maybe its just basing it on my search tendencies, but if not I find it interesting that we're pretty much on our own to come up with a solid, common definition...which bodes ill for me I suppose. D:

Talya

2013-12-27, 01:29 PM

Personality =/= will.

Clarification on terminology: "Will" is just your desires, what you wish to achieve. It is only tangentially related to willpower. Willpower is the ability to maintain that will in the face of things that would subvert it and change it. For instance, it may be your will that you lose weight. Willpower is what allows you to keep going to the gym and to avoid fatty snacks while you attempt to accomplish your will.

Personality very much has strength. it's the strength of your being - it's who you are and how much of an impact your identity has on the world around you. This can be indirect, such as through acts requiring a level of skill (such as bluff, diplomacy, or intimidate - modified by your strength of personality), or directly through having that personality itself grab hold of the problem and wrestle/beat it into submission.

Ones ability to brute-force problems (be they math, riddles, etc), is governed by int. And ones ability to retain information is typically governed by int, which feels like a long-term mental endurance (except when its governed by wis, that is, in the form of autohypnosis). And int lacks any default defensive abilities that would be associated with dex. It is almost pure offense there. They're all so muddy that there is no clear parallel. Its why I can work with the standard array of how it works, even if I think it makes more sense in another arrangement.

Anyone who is good at math knows that there's no way to brute-force a mathematical problem*. Being able to do complex equations in one's head (or even on paper) is an excersize in mental agility. It's dexterous manipulation of numbers and functions in distinct brainspace, a mental juggling of information and then when you stop, ensuring all the pieces fall where they should.

*-Edit: I really should not state absolutes. There are ways to brute force a mathematical problem. They involve plugging in every possible value into an equation until you find one that fits. This does not require intelligence, just perseverence.

Mutazoia

2013-12-27, 04:35 PM

Thiyr

2013-12-27, 04:40 PM

Clarification on terminology: "Will" is just your desires, what you wish to achieve. It is only tangentially related to willpower. Willpower is the ability to maintain that will in the face of things that would subvert it and change it. For instance, it may be your will that you lose weight. Willpower is what allows you to keep going to the gym and to avoid fatty snacks while you attempt to accomplish your will.

Personality very much has strength. it's the strength of your being - it's who you are and how much of an impact your identity has on the world around you. This can be indirect, such as through acts requiring a level of skill (such as bluff, diplomacy, or intimidate - modified by your strength of personality), or directly through having that personality itself grab hold of the problem and wrestle/beat it into submission.

Alternatively, Willpower is a synonym of the word Will, a noun meaning "the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action" (as in, "an effort of will"). And even if we use will in the form you bring up, my definition of willpower still meshes (your will is the motive, where your willpower is your capability to follow through). It is the method by with they start action, how they make their desires manifest, which is an active thing. Only if the desire is passive/defensive is willpower defensive. On the light end, it is a measure of how well somebody will drive themselves. On the strongest end, it can become a tangible force which manifests to enact your desires.

Personality is that collection of traits and qualities which all add up to an individual. Your will can and is influenced by your personality, but the personality itself doesn't do the lifting. It is the adjectives which add color to the canvas of a person. It is how these traits manifest in how one acts which is the force of one's personality, the method by which one applies their willpower. Two people can both seek to reveal a truth, but it is the details in how they do it which reveal their personality, which can make or break how one is perceived, or even if anyone perceives them in the first place. The force of one's personality is the gravity that these details have, how easily they are recognized. And while this has a power of its own, especially if one is capable of molding their personality to suit a situation, it still is reliant on action to be brought out.

Anyone who is good at math knows that there's no way to brute-force a mathematical problem*. Being able to do complex equations in one's head (or even on paper) is an excersize in mental agility. It's dexterous manipulation of numbers and functions in distinct brainspace, a mental juggling of information and then when you stop, ensuring all the pieces fall where they should.

*-Edit: I really should not state absolutes. There are ways to brute force a mathematical problem. They involve plugging in every possible value into an equation until you find one that fits. This does not require intelligence, just perseverence.

I will grant you that, though I admit I was more on the end of how an individual could get beyond the known and into the unknown, which would require at least some amount of brute force, in that they don't know the steps needed to move forward. But I admit that this was a poor choice of example, if only because I find that it covers more than either an analogue to str or dex. I still hold to the premise that the mental stats are very much vague in this regard, however.

Also, I find myself wishing that there WAS a clear analogue. Kinda missing the ease of getting the stats in WoD for this kind of a discussion, makes it all so simple.

Talya

2013-12-27, 04:45 PM

None of which have one whit to do with Charisma....snip...
All of which would be covered by INT (obviously).

I agree. A the beginning I am discussing wisdom. At the end I am discussing intelligence. I believe that was clear.

However, in the middle, the strength of your personality absolutely IS charisma. Charisma is that ability to pound reality with your very being and put it down.

Wisdom gives you the ability to withstand it when reality pounds back.

Scow2

2013-12-27, 06:59 PM

See, but that doesn't follow. Willpower is not "entirely defensive", as was demonstrated above. (and Talya, I think this is where the whole offensive willpower thing came up.) Even within the mechanics of d&d, active uses of willpower are oftentimes tied to wis. An afflicted lycanthrope's Control Shape skill is keyed off of wis. Autohypnosis, the practically iconic "mind over matter" skill, is wis based. Shapesand and chaos flasks both work off of wis checks. Lucid dreaming is wis based. And a great deal of these are described as exerting your will/doing these feats by way of willpower.I have not seen a single instance of Willpower advertised where it does anything other than "Not fold under pressure."

Someone who has a high CHA but low WIS is the mental equivalent of a Glass Cannon.

Someone with a high Strength but low constitution can put out a lot of hurt and push hard, but can't be pushed. Autohypnosis is all about resisting/noping-away effects. A Lycanthrope's "Control Shape" is about maintaining control of one's mind under heavy physical trauma and mental duress. Lucid Dreaming is entirely about awareness.

Again you are confusing a strong personality with a strong will. I have several time's given you examples of people with strong personalities but not much willpower. You conveniently ignore them. You on one hand list all the usual uses of a strong personality, but then seem to think that those methods can also be used on inanimate objects and forms of pure energy. By your logic my PC should be able to blind an opponent bending light with his dazzling smile, or swing his sword at some one by simply sweet talking it. You're the one confusing Willpower and Personality. Force of Personality is the ability to throw a mental punch, while Willpower is the ability to take a mental punch. Its why CHA increases and WIS decreases with loss of sanity. Can you please, please give a single example of Willpower that has to deal with making something happen to something/someone else, as opposed to resisting something that's trying to happen to you?

There is no logical reasoning for being able to use social skills to manipulate inanimate objects.Which is why we're not using any social skills to manipulate inanimate objects - We're using personal force (Not personal resilience) to influence and manipulate an omnipresent sympathetic stream of energy/force. Please, without physically touching or interacting with a door, get it to open by thinking at it. Charisma is style.

(Yes magic items have saves...fort saves. As does every other item in the game but you can't use Charisma to talk a door into opening itself.)Which is why you use Charisma to interface with a living, VERY animate sympathetic power surrounding the door and willing it to interact with the physical object and swing it open.

TuggyNE

2013-12-27, 07:04 PM

Yes magic items have saves...fort saves. As does every other item in the game

That's not correct. Magic items have independent Fort, Reflex, and Will saves, which they can use whenever those are higher than their owner's or when they are unattended. Non-magical items get precisely none of those, unless they are in the possession of some creature, in which case they can use only the creature's saves.

In other words, magic items have saves of their own, and non-magical do not. It's really that simple.

Elderand

2013-12-27, 07:05 PM

Which is why you use Charisma to interface with a living, VERY animate sympathetic power surrounding the door and willing it to interact with the physical object and swing it open.

Mystra comes along and se a sorcerer waving fingers at a door
"Awww, little mortal want to go outside ? Alright then, but if you want to go out you go out, don't stand in the door for hours or try to come back inside whithin five minutes"

Mutazoia

2013-12-27, 08:03 PM

I have not seen a single instance of Willpower advertised where it does anything other than "Not fold under pressure."

will·pow·er or will pow·er (wlpour)
n.
The strength of will to carry out one's decisions, wishes, or plans.

Not always defensive...

Someone who has a high CHA but low WIS is the mental equivalent of a Glass Cannon.

Again you labor under the false assumption that Charisma has anything to do with willpower. I have to assume at this point that you are the "well it says it in the PHB so that's how it is everywhere" type.

Someone with a high Strength but low constitution can put out a lot of hurt and push hard, but can't be pushed.

Yes...very good. Constitution IS all about physical durability. Charisma isn't about durability (or strength) at all.

Autohypnosis is all about resisting/noping-away effects.

You should probably learn a bit about hypnosis before sounding off here. (And before you ask yes I've been doing stage hypnosis for years.)

A Lycanthrope's "Control Shape" is about maintaining control of one's mind under heavy physical trauma and mental duress.

Yes...I believe his point was that it was will based.

Lucid Dreaming is entirely about awareness.

Lucid Dreaming is not about awareness...it is about controlling your dreams..basically about being "awake" while still in REM state. Basically....using your will to affect your dream state...and in an active, not defensive way.

You're the one confusing Willpower and Personality. Force of Personality is the ability to throw a mental punch, while Willpower is the ability to take a mental punch.

Charisma has never had anything to do with shooting mind bullets. In the hundreds of years since the concept of Charisma was born nobody has ever claimed to be able to throw a mental punch with his/her Charisma. They HAVE, however, claimed to (for example) bend spoons through sheer force of will. (Not by charming it.)

Its why CHA increases and WIS decreases with loss of sanity.

Yes..because acting like a raving lunatic, drooling, barking and claiming to be Napoleon is ALWAYS super attractive and the recommended way to get dates on the weekend.

Can you please, please give a single example of Willpower that has to deal with making something happen to something/someone else, as opposed to resisting something that's trying to happen to you?

So you've never heard of a contest of wills?

Which is why we're not using any social skills to manipulate inanimate objects - We're using personal force (Not personal resilience) to influence and manipulate an omnipresent sympathetic stream of energy/force. Please, without physically touching or interacting with a door, get it to open by thinking at it. Charisma is style.

Again...personal force and force of personality are two separate concepts. One is mental and one is entirely social. The idea that you are using "style" to activate an inanimate object (yes...I hate to break it to you but items (unless otherwise enchanted) are inanimate objects with no mind of their own to be influenced.) You still can't use Charisma to open a door...you can't use it to "trick" a magic item into working. There's nothing to trick. So sorry.

Which is why you use Charisma to interface with a living, VERY animate sympathetic power surrounding the door and willing it to interact with the physical object and swing it open.

Yes...you use Charisma to talk some one into opening the door for you. You don't use Charisma to get the door to open by itself. Magic is not alive, is not sentient, cannot be influenced. It is an energy source pure and simple. Just like electricity.

Scow2

2013-12-27, 08:28 PM

will·pow·er or will pow·er (wlpour)
n.
The strength of will to carry out one's decisions, wishes, or plans.

Not always defensive...To carry out - which is ALWAYS against resistance that pushes back. Willpower resists the adversity faced by carrying out one's decisions, wishes, and lans.

Again you labor under the false assumption that Charisma has anything to do with willpower. I have to assume at this point that you are the "well it says it in the PHB so that's how it is everywhere" type.I have not used the phrase "Willpower" once... though there are feats in 3.5/pathfinder that allow you to use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will saves against mind-affecting spells, amounting to your character being able to say "Sorry, I can't hear what you're wanting me to think over the sound of my own awesomeness"

Yes...very good. Constitution IS all about physical durability. Charisma isn't about durability (or strength) at all.Charisma IS about strength, but not durability. Charisma is presence and personal magnetism, and the ability to make things work. Magic is not a Science - it is a unique, responsive and empathic force. It's not intelligent, but neither is a bug. It reacts based on how it feels, and Charisma is the ability to change how something feels.

You should probably learn a bit about hypnosis before sounding off here. (And before you ask yes I've been doing stage hypnosis for years.)We're not talking about normal hypnosis. We're talking autohypnosis - applying it to the self. Hypnosis is also a state of hyperawareness(Wisdom). Wisdom is the ability to allow yourself to be hypnotized and make more of it (Or resist unwanted attempts to hypnotize). Hypnotizing someone else is CHA-based. Hypnotizing the self is WIS-based.

Lucid Dreaming is not about awareness...it is about controlling your dreams..basically about being "awake" while still in REM state. Basically....using your will to affect your dream state...and in an active, not defensive way.It's about realizing you're dreaming, and being able to change what you're dreaming of through your understanding of what's going on.

Charisma has never had anything to do with shooting mind bullets. In the hundreds of years since the concept of Charisma was born nobody has ever claimed to be able to throw a mental punch with his/her Charisma. They HAVE, however, claimed to (for example) bend spoons through sheer force of will. (Not by charming it.)I wasn't referring to physical acts. I was referring to getting your way. Charisma is the ability to get your way. Wisdom is the ability to handle NOT getting your way - and if you have high wisdom, you can out-endure other's.

Yes..because acting like a raving lunatic, drooling, barking and claiming to be Napoleon is ALWAYS super attractive.Meh. There are far more charismatic forms of insanity. Such as megalomania.

I've listed two previously...please read them.You have listed ways to out-endure adversity. Dreaming is entirely self-contained, so you're not forcing yourself on anything but yourself while doing so. You haven't listed any form of willpower that isn't about

Again...personal force and force of personality are two separate concepts. One is mental and one is entirely social. The idea that you are using "style" to activate an inanimate object (yes...I hate to break it to you but items (unless otherwise enchanted) are inanimate objects with no mind of their own to be influenced.) You still can't use Charisma to open a door...you can't use it to "trick" a magic item into working. There's nothing to trick. So sorry.You keep treating "Inanimate" to mean the same as "Nonmagical". I hate to break it to you, but sorry - magic is an empathic (But not necessarily intelligent) force. There IS something there to be influenced/tricked - the objects magical nature.

Yes...you use Charisma to talk some one into opening the door for you. You don't use Charisma to get the door to open by itself.Unless the door is magical, in a field of magical energy, that you are sensitive to, and it is sensitive to you, in which case the ambient magic reacts to your personal presence and aura(Charisma), and opens for you.

You keep arguing as though magic is not a thing in D&D because it's not something in our world - But magic is VERY much something alive (Or at least as alive as an Undead or Construct) and sympathetic in D&D.

Mutazoia

2013-12-27, 10:07 PM

To carry out - which is ALWAYS against resistance that pushes back. Willpower resists the adversity faced by carrying out one's decisions, wishes, and lans.

I have not used the phrase "Willpower" once... though there are feats in 3.5/pathfinder that allow you to use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will saves against mind-affecting spells, amounting to your character being able to say "Sorry, I can't hear what you're wanting me to think over the sound of my own awesomeness"

Which goes back to one of my original arguments, that Charisma had nothing to do with magic until WOTC got a hold of it.

Charisma IS about strength, but not durability. Charisma is presence and personal magnetism, and the ability to make things work. Magic is not a Science - it is a unique, responsive and empathic force. It's not intelligent, but neither is a bug. It reacts based on how it feels, and Charisma is the ability to change how something feels.

You are correct right up to "the ability to make things work". "Things" that do not have an intellect cannot be influenced one way or the other. In order to be influenced, a preference would be necessary. A preference is not possible with out being able to reason, even on a small scale. Please quote me the reference that states magic is either intelligent or "empathic".

We're not talking about normal hypnosis. We're talking autohypnosis - applying it to the self. Hypnosis is also a state of hyperawareness(Wisdom). Wisdom is the ability to allow yourself to be hypnotized and make more of it (Or resist unwanted attempts to hypnotize). Hypnotizing someone else is CHA-based. Hypnotizing the self is WIS-based.

Again...please learn more about the subject before sounding off. "Autohypnosis" and "Self Hypnosis" are synonymous and function the exact same way as hypnosis, which is not a state of hyper-awareness but, is in fact the opposite. Hypnosis is a state of extreme concentration...concentration on one thing (the induction process) to the exclusion of all other stimuli, leaving the subconscious to mind the farm so to speak.

It's about realizing you're dreaming, and being able to change what you're dreaming of through your understanding of what's going on.

Yeah...that's pretty much what I just said.

I wasn't referring to physical acts. I was referring to getting your way. Charisma is the ability to get your way.

Through social manipulation.

Wisdom is the ability to handle NOT getting your way - and if you have high wisdom, you can out-endure other's.

That's called maturity.

Meh. There are far more charismatic forms of insanity. Such as megalomania.

Yes...which is why everybody LOVES a meglomaniac.

You have listed ways to out-endure adversity. Dreaming is entirely self-contained, so you're not forcing yourself on anything but yourself while doing so. You haven't listed any form of willpower that isn't about

Read again...you must have missed the Dr. Smith reference....

You keep treating "Inanimate" to mean the same as "Nonmagical". I hate to break it to you, but sorry - magic is an empathic (But not necessarily intelligent) force. There IS something there to be influenced/tricked - the objects magical nature.

Again...please quote your source of reference that states magic is empathic. Other wise I have to continue to believe that you are simply justifying your comments by WOTC's creation of Sorcerers and UMD all dependent on CHA as the gospel.

Unless the door is magical, in a field of magical energy, that you are sensitive to, and it is sensitive to you, in which case the ambient magic reacts to your personal presence and aura(Charisma), and opens for you.

Still not seeing how you are rationalizing magic being empathic or otherwise able to be influence by social skills.

You keep arguing as though magic is not a thing in D&D because it's not something in our world - But magic is VERY much something alive (Or at least as alive as an Undead or Construct) and sympathetic in D&D.

No...I'm arguing that magic is not a living thing in D&D, that is able to be tricked into functioning. After all, if all it took to use magic was to trick it, then why the hell would mages spend years studying musty old tomes and gathering exotic ingredients to make it work?

eggynack

2013-12-27, 10:15 PM

Again...please learn more about the subject before sounding off. "Autohypnosis" and "Self Hypnosis" are synonymous and function the exact same way as hypnosis, which is not a state of hyper-awareness but, is in fact the opposite. Hypnosis is a state of extreme concentration...concentration on one thing (the induction process) to the exclusion of all other stimuli, leaving the subconscious to mind the farm so to speak.

Seriously? He's talking about autohypnosis. As in, the skill autohypnosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/autohypnosis.htm). As in, the skill which lets you overcome various status conditions, and also memorize stuff.

Scow2

2013-12-27, 10:23 PM

Which goes back to one of my original arguments, that Charisma had nothing to do with magic until WOTC got a hold of it.

You are correct right up to "the ability to make things work". "Things" that do not have an intellect cannot be influenced one way or the other. In order to be influenced, a preference would be necessary. A preference is not possible with out being able to reason, even on a small scale. Please quote me the reference that states magic is either intelligent or "empathic".Sympathetic is the better term than Empathic, and magic is sympathetic by the common, non-game term concept of the term.

Again...please learn more about the subject before sounding off. "Autohypnosis" and "Self Hypnosis" are synonymous and function the exact same way as hypnosis, which is not a state of hyper-awareness but, is in fact the opposite. Hypnosis is a state of extreme concentration...concentration on one thing (the induction process) to the exclusion of all other stimuli, leaving the subconscious to mind the farm so to speak.And concentration is part of awareness. Wisdom is not entirely willpower - it encompasses a number of things.

Yeah...that's pretty much what I just said.I was pointing out that it's tied to Wisdom(Understanding), not the ability to force yourself onto the real world.

Through social manipulation.Only in a world without a reactive force governing and influencing everything else.

That's called maturity.Maturity and wisdom are synonymous.

Yes...which is why everybody LOVES a meglomaniac.Yes, yes we do. They can be VERY persuasive, charming, and awesome.

Again...please quote your source of reference that states magic is empathic. Other wise I have to continue to believe that you are simply justifying your comments by WOTC's creation of Sorcerers and UMD all dependent on CHA as the gospel.Common non-D&D definition of magic is sympathetic and reactive. In previous editions, it took INT to know how to harness and use the rituals to gain the favor and results of the magical forces.

Still not seeing how you are rationalizing magic being empathic or otherwise able to be influence by social skills.Why are you talking about social skills? Magic cannot be influenced by skill ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, or Intimidate. Charisma is a measure of how Awesome a character is.

No...I'm arguing that magic is not a living thing in D&D, that is able to be tricked into functioning. After all, if all it took to use magic was to trick it, then why the hell would mages spend years studying musty old tomes and gathering exotic ingredients to make it work?Because 'trickery' isn't reliable, and they lack innate magical power? A level 1 wizard has a 100% chance of casting Magic Missile if he prepares it or tries to cast it from a scroll. A level 1 person trained in UMD has a 15% chance to cast Magic Missile from a scroll (+2 CHA, +2 CC UMD), and cannot cast it on his own.

Also... did you seriously ask why someone would rather want to be a Tier 2 class with gimped spell progression instead of a Tier 1 demigod?

The Insanity

2013-12-28, 01:05 AM

Cha to UMD makes sense to me.

Cha to Will makes more sense than Wis to me.

Magic is mysterious. Maybe it's alive and can be fooled, maybe it's not. Maybe it's midichlorians.

Mutazoia

2013-12-28, 11:57 AM

Sympathetic is the better term than Empathic, and magic is sympathetic by the common, non-game term concept of the term.

Sympathy implies intellect. Magic is not self-aware.

And concentration is part of awareness. Wisdom is not entirely willpower - it encompasses a number of things.
I was pointing out that it's tied to Wisdom(Understanding), not the ability to force yourself onto the real world.
Only in a world without a reactive force governing and influencing everything else.

You can most certainly become aware of a thing with out concentrating on it...but this line of discussion really has little to do with the topic at hand.

Maturity and wisdom are synonymous.

You've never heard the term "You old fool." ? Maturity is not synonymous with wisdom...you can have one with out the other.

Yes, yes we do. They can be VERY persuasive, charming, and awesome.

Haven't spent much time with a real Meglomaniac have we? Think Sheldon Cooper....he sure is charming isn't he?

Common non-D&D definition of magic is sympathetic and reactive. In previous editions, it took INT to know how to harness and use the rituals to gain the favor and results of the magical forces.

You didn't gain the favor of the magical forces...you manipulated and controlled them through study.

Why are you talking about social skills? Magic cannot be influenced by skill ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, or Intimidate. Charisma is a measure of how Awesome a character is.

Seriously? We've been debating charisma, a social stat, being used to influence magic. You now say it cannot influence magic, but go on to argue that it can....make up your mind please.

Because 'trickery' isn't reliable, and they lack innate magical power? A level 1 wizard has a 100% chance of casting Magic Missile if he prepares it or tries to cast it from a scroll. A level 1 person trained in UMD has a 15% chance to cast Magic Missile from a scroll (+2 CHA, +2 CC UMD), and cannot cast it on his own.

Which is kind of my point. A wizard trains and learns to control magic. A person who has not trained cannot use charisma to use the scroll. As a inanimate object with no intelligence or "empathy" as you keep calling it, a scroll cannot be used via charisma. You can try to sound out the worlds phonetically, but that has nothing to do with charisma. Int yes...Wis possibly, Cha, not a chance.

Also... did you seriously ask why someone would rather want to be a Tier 2 class with gimped spell progression instead of a Tier 1 demigod?

No...I asked why a wizard would bother studying if he could just con magic into working for him. My statement had nothing to do with broken game mechanics.

Magic is mysterious. Maybe it's alive and can be fooled, maybe it's not. Maybe it's midichlorians.

*gibbs slap* Magic is not the Force :smallwink:

Basically this whole debate boils down to "WOTC made charisma a magic stat so now we are going to invent ways to justify it." At this point I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree as some of you are going to great pains to avoid logic to justify social aptitude as a means to use/control an energy source, and I'm never going to buy Charisma as anything other than a social stat that has nothing to do with magic despite WOTC's shoe-horning the sorcerer into the game.

Talya

2013-12-28, 12:05 PM

Haven't spent much time with a real Meglomaniac have we? Think Sheldon Cooper....he sure is charming isn't he?

Let's not confuse megalomania with Asperger's Syndrome. They are not remotely related.

Dalebert

2013-12-28, 12:05 PM

I feel like a few people mentioned this analogy of how magic items are tricked or cajoled or whatever and some people locked onto that and are obsessing over it. If that's bugging you, just think of manipulating people as being similar to how magic is manipulated on the fly vs. studiously trained.

Think about a charismatic person. They're confident, creative, imaginative, spontaneous... That person might be able to convince others that they're a great mathematician or scientist using sheer bullpoop. Such a person might be able to carry on a conversation and fill in the gaps in their knowledge with fancy words and careful dodging of any direct answer to complicated questions. Think of politicians who manage to seem smarter than they are but never really say anything of substance to the interviewer because they didn't bother even reading the 300 page bill they just voted for.

Now, instead of obsessing over this notion as presented by some that they're doing the EXACT same thing to a mindless item, just think of the manipulation of magic on the fly as involving similar talents--confidence, creativity, imagination, spontaneity. Why? Because the game designers said so. A few people are carrying on as if this is absolutely absurd. I don't see why.

Talya

2013-12-28, 12:11 PM

I think what's being missed here is what charisma represents.

Charisma is not the ability in itself to sway others with words... that's what diplomacy, bluff and intimidate skills are. While Charisma influences them, you can be an excellent diplomat with training alone and a 10 charisma.

The D&D concept behind charisma is that one's personality -- their very being -- who they are -- has strength. That strength of personality has the ability to make it's owners will into reality, creating things like personal magnetism. It assists in influencing people and even magic itself with its power. Charisma is that force of personality. Charisma is the raw power of your being, and its ability to influence the world around you.

In the real world, that is hogwash. Because the real world has no magic: the real world appears entirely physical, not metaphysical. D&D is not the real world. In a world where magic exists, where people are more than a temporarily self-sustaining chemical reaction on legs, this makes perfect sense.

And I like it.

Mutazoia

2013-12-28, 12:12 PM

Let's not confuse megalomania with Asperger's Syndrome. They are not remotely related.

Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger disorder (AD) or simply Asperger's, is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. It differs from other autism spectrum disorders by its relative preservation of linguistic and cognitive development. Although not required for diagnosis, physical clumsiness and atypical (peculiar, odd) use of language are frequently reported

Megalomania is a psychopathological disorder characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence. "Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs.

While Sheldon displays some of the traits of Asperger's (difficulties in social interaction) he fails to manifest the other traits, while in turn showing all the signs of Meglomania. His difficulties with social interaction most likely stem from his meglomania distancing him from "normal" social interaction from an early age, thus hampering his development of normal social skills.

sheldon's mom: Now you listen here. I have been telling you since you were four, "It's okay to be smarter than everybody else but you can't go around point it out!"
sheldon: Why not?
sheldon's mom: BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE IT!!!

:smallbiggrin:

Talya

2013-12-28, 12:16 PM

While Sheldon displays some of the traits of Asperger's (difficulties in social interaction) he fails to manifest the other traits, while in turn showing all the signs of Meglomania. His difficulties with social interaction most likely stem from his meglomania distancing him from "normal" social interaction from an early age, thus hampering his development of normal social skills.

(1) Which of the traits of Asperger's that you listed do not represent Sheldon Cooper? Everything you described is Sheldon to an absolute T:
significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication - check
restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests - check
relative preservation of linguistic and cognitive development - check
physical clumsiness and atypical (peculiar, odd) use of language - check

(2) I didn't say he couldn't be both. I'm saying Sheldon's wonderful, winning personality is a result of his Asperger's Syndrome, not any Narcissistic Personality Disorder traits he may possess.

eggynack

2013-12-28, 12:18 PM

Sympathy implies intellect. Magic is not self-aware.
Do you actually have any indication of that? Moreover, it's magic. It can respond to people in ways that inanimate thing don't in reality, because it's a different thing. Maybe asking the universe nicely can create fireballs, if you are sufficiently talented.

Haven't spent much time with a real Meglomaniac have we? Think Sheldon Cooper....he sure is charming isn't he?
I'm not going to use any specific examples, cause rules, but how's about you look up the rises of various dictators and tyrants throughout history. That might key you in to how megalomania can be charismatic.

Seriously? We've been debating charisma, a social stat, being used to influence magic. You now say it cannot influence magic, but go on to argue that it can....make up your mind please.
Those specific skills cannot influence magic, because they deal with living beings. You need to influence magic in a different way.

Which is kind of my point. A wizard trains and learns to control magic. A person who has not trained cannot use charisma to use the scroll. As a inanimate object with no intelligence or "empathy" as you keep calling it, a scroll cannot be used via charisma. You can try to sound out the worlds phonetically, but that has nothing to do with charisma. Int yes...Wis possibly, Cha, not a chance.

You can't use the scroll through sheer force of personality alone, no. It's just a major factor in your success.

No...I asked why a wizard would bother studying if he could just con magic into working for him. My statement had nothing to do with broken game mechanics.

Because conning magic into working for you can actually be harder, especially if the character isn't charismatic. Because going the hard route actually leads to more power. Because maybe it's actually impossible for some people to be sorcerers.

Basically this whole debate boils down to "WOTC made charisma a magic stat so now we are going to invent ways to justify it." At this point I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree as some of you are going to great pains to avoid logic to justify social aptitude as a means to use/control an energy source, and I'm never going to buy Charisma as anything other than a social stat that has nothing to do with magic despite WOTC's shoe-horning the sorcerer into the game.
The problem with your argument is that it's not that hard to justify at all. You're convincing reality to be something different, and if you're convincing enough then it works. Social aptitude can't be used as a means to use an energy source in this world, because we're not magic. You not liking the justification doesn't make the justification illogical. The fact of the matter is, you might think that magic works in one way, where it's as unaffected by someone's choice of words as a table, but the game actively disagrees with you. There could be a universe where it's impossible to do that, but this isn't that universe.

Mutazoia

2013-12-28, 12:19 PM

(1) Which of the traits of Asperger's that you listed do not represent Sheldon Cooper? Everything you described is Sheldon to an absolute T.
(2) I didn't say he couldn't be both. I'm saying Sheldon's wonderful, winning personality is a result of his Asperger's Syndrome, not any Narcissistic Personality Disorder traits he may possess.

Yes technically he could suffer from both. (I was referring to the physical clumsiness, use of atypical language...common attributes of Asperger's).

But that's off topic.

Dalebert

2013-12-28, 12:26 PM

It's certainly possible to be both Aspy and Mego and that may describe Sheldon. I think the point was simply that there may be a lot of overlap between high CHA and megalomania. Someone who is extremely charismatic will tend to convince the people around them that they're awesome and so may come to believe it themselves, particularly if they're weak in other areas psychologically.

Sheldon really is brilliant (maybe? I don't watch the show.) and everyone seems stupid to him so maybe that contribute to him being a mego. He's just not charismatic so he fails at convincing others that he's awesome.

Talya

2013-12-28, 12:27 PM

Yes technically he could suffer from both. (I was referring to the physical clumsiness, use of atypical language...common attributes of Asperger's).

Of which Sheldon suffers from both!

Thiyr

2013-12-28, 02:36 PM

*whistles* So much fun happened while I was gone. Huzzah differing viewpoints!

Only thing I have to contribute while I'm waking up atm:

I have not seen a single instance of Willpower advertised where it does anything other than "Not fold under pressure."

Someone who has a high CHA but low WIS is the mental equivalent of a Glass Cannon.

Someone with a high Strength but low constitution can put out a lot of hurt and push hard, but can't be pushed. Autohypnosis is all about resisting/noping-away effects. A Lycanthrope's "Control Shape" is about maintaining control of one's mind under heavy physical trauma and mental duress. Lucid Dreaming is entirely about awareness.

You're the one confusing Willpower and Personality. Force of Personality is the ability to throw a mental punch, while Willpower is the ability to take a mental punch. Its why CHA increases and WIS decreases with loss of sanity. Can you please, please give a single example of Willpower that has to deal with making something happen to something/someone else, as opposed to resisting something that's trying to happen to you?

To carry out - which is ALWAYS against resistance that pushes back. Willpower resists the adversity faced by carrying out one's decisions, wishes, and lans.

Two points:
a) As examples of willpower being used on an external object to make it do something, i will repeat shapesand and chaos flasks. I will repeat lucid dreaming (http://dndtools.eu/skills/lucid-dreaming/), which is more than JUST awareness due to dreamscapes being a tad more tangible in this context. In counterpoint, can you give any examples of ways where force of personality is more tangible than a mere social force, without bringing up magic/umd (to clarify, other skills? Items that work without UMD? I'm lumping SLAs in with magic here.)

b) To say that willpower is always resistance against adversity in in carrying out adversity is....not making it a purely defensive thing. Its the same thing as saying "Physical might is always resistance against the physical forces holding your limbs." OBVIOUSLY strength isn't a defensive stat. It is proactive despite by its nature being a thing which works against adversity. Wisdom is the same. Take out resistance and you don't need str/will to do anything.

that all said, I think I can agree with the sentiment if not the specifics of what Mutazoia said: I feel as though Cha, and the concept of force of personality as you are describing it, was shoehorned/retroactively-justified into the role it has in the system. It can be made to make sense, but it takes some doing. It may be best to agree to disagree.