Marvelous Pigments - Getting the most out of it without cheesing

[Randomocity132]

Rolling up a rogue for an upcoming campaign. The DM for this campaign has never been DM before, and he says the campaign will lean more towards role-playing. I'm trying to decide on whether I want to purchase a pot of Marvelous Pigments. I can afford to spend the skill points in Craft (Paint). The text reads as follows:


Marvelous Pigments: These magic emulsions enable their possessor to create actual, permanent objects simply by depicting their form in two dimensions. The pigments are applied by a stick tipped with bristles, hair, or fur. The emulsion flows from the application to form the desired object as the artist concentrates on the desired image. One pot of marvelous pigments is sufficient to create a 1,000-cubic-foot object by depicting it two-dimensionally over a 100-square-foot surface.

Only normal, inanimate objects can be created. Creatures can’t be created. The pigments must be applied to a surface. It takes 10 minutes and a DC 15 Craft (painting) check to depict an object with the pigments. Marvelous pigments cannot create magic items. Objects of value depicted by the pigments —precious metals, gems, jewelry, ivory, and so on— appear to be valuable but are really made of tin, lead, paste, brass, bone, and other such inexpensive materials. The user can create normal weapons, armor, and any other mundane item (including foodstuffs) whose value does not exceed 2,000 gp.

Items created are not magical; the effect is instantaneous.

I recognize that this won't last long if I use it on large items, but I can instead use it to keep a constant supply of smaller items such as tanglefoot bags, alchemist's fire, poisons, throwing knives, thieves' tools, etc.

One question I have is concerning the "objects of value". Could you paint an alchemical silver masterwork dagger, since it is only worth about 304 GP? Or is that considered a precious metal? Cold Iron? What are some legal but useful ways to use this paint? Is it worth having on a rogue?

[bekeleven]

Silver is an object of value, and masterwork is not a normal weapon, so your dagger is twice damned.

Most amusing use of the pigments is probably to paint doors/windows on walls and trapdoors on floors and ceilings. Lots of fun until magical bypasses become common.

All round it's one of the more creative magical items. Sounds perfect for a roleplay-heavy campaign.

[Artillery]

Its great to have for a rogue. It can be anything you need. A coil of rope, a pit trap, a whole in the wall. Or you can use it to make a wall cracked so its easier to get through with less paint. Painting a peephole on a door.

If you are imaginative you can always find a use for it.

[Ravens_cry]

You know, with a good Bluff skill check, you could still sell the paste gems and such as the real deal.

[Eldonauran]

The user can create normal weapons, armor, and any other mundane item (including foodstuffs) whose value does not exceed 2,000 gp.


I'm pretty sure 'normal' and 'mudane' exclude 'masterwork' and 'alchemical' items. At least, this would be my outlook as a DM.

Supporting text:

You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item.

Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail.

Material Component
A tiny piece of matter of the same sort of item you plan to create with minor creation.

This spell functions like minor creation, except that you can also create an object of mineral nature: stone, crystal, metal, or the like. The duration of the created item varies with its relative hardness and rarity, as indicated on the following table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm).

Strong conjuration; CL 15th; Craft Wondrous Item, major creation; Price 4,000 gp.

There is no way I would allow, as a DM, a magical item worth 4,000gp (the pigments) to create items outside the spell's listed specifications, that is used in the creation of said magical item, without specific text in the item's description.

Masterwork alchemical silver dagger? A big NOPE.

[Darrin]

I'm pretty sure 'normal' and 'mudane' exclude 'masterwork' and 'alchemical' items. At least, this would be my outlook as a DM.

Supporting text:


Marvelous pigments do not use the mechanics or restrictions from minor/major creation. At no point are the marvelous pigments casting a spell or spell-like effect. The prereq lists major creation because that's the closest spell effect similar to what the pigments are doing.

Alchemical items are non-magical and non-masterwork, so they work just fine with the pigments. My understanding was most people consider them "mundane" objects for the purposes of pigments/psionic minor creation/shapesand/etc. As far as special materials go... gold, silver, mithral, and adamantine would probably all count as precious metals (although "precious metals" are not explicitly defined anywhere in the rules). I would probably let cold iron slide, because it's still a mundane metal, the extra cost is only incurred when you enchant it, and the pigments can't create a cold iron weapon that is enchantable. All the other special material metals... I'd have to look at those on a case-by-case basis.

The biggest head-scratcher with the pigments is how you interpret the limit on the amount of items it can create. There are actually two mentioned in the item description: up to 100 square feet, or up to 2000 GP. It's not clear if the 2000 GP limit is a per-item limit, or if the total value of all items created by the pigments must not exceed 2000 GP. I kind of waffle back and forth, depending on the item being created. If it's a simple structure, such as a 5' x 20' stone bridge or a 5' x 5' window, then it's easier to use surface area. If it's something where the surface area is too difficult to calculate, like a trombone, then GP works better.

If your DM rules that the 2000 GP limit is per-item limit rather than the total value of all items, then the best way to maximize the pigments is a 10' x 10' x 10' room full of vials of poison where each dose costs 2000 GP, such as Raeliss Smoke from Arms & Equipment Guide or Luhix/Lifebane from Book of Vile Darkness. Assuming a vial of poison is about an ounce and 1 cubic foot = 957 fluid ounces, 1000 cubic feet x 957 x 2000 GP = 1,914,000,000 GP worth of poison. As no sane DM would allow this, you're probably stuck with both the 100' square feet and 2000 GP limit for all items.

[Eldonauran]

There is no way I would allow, as a DM, a magical item worth 4,000gp (the pigments) to create items outside the spell's listed specifications, that is used in the creation of said magical item, without specific text in the item's description.

The item gives specific texts on what it can create, which does exceed the listed powers of major creation. So, it can create items that appear to be valuable but are really not. I stand by my opinion that alchemical items are not normal nor mudane. I am also of the mind that I would not allow a character to create more thean 2,000gp worth of items using the entire volume of pigment. Whether or not the character can sell the created items for more than that is entirely possible.

[Corinath]

Oh man, I'd never heard of this item before. This sounds awesome. Some straight Wily E. Coyote shenanigans going on here.

What is this from? MIC?

[Ravens_cry]

Oh man, I'd never heard of this item before. This sounds awesome. Some straight Wily E. Coyote shenanigans going on here.

What is this from? MIC?
Nope, it's in the DMG and SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#marvelousPigments), and it's, yes, Looney Tunes, Tex Avery, awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[Randomocity132]

I understood items of value to mean things that aren't used for really anything but selling. I say this because I assume the intent of including that rule was to make it so you can't just paint up a hoard of treasure and then sell it for a profit after only spending 4k on the pigments. This is me attempting to understand the reason that rule was included. Otherwise you could argue that a greatsword made out of solid iron can't be made because iron is a valuable material that you can sell or whatever.

[Icewraith]

The 2k limit appears to be per item, and the usage appears to be governed by the amount of square footage used to paint the item.

[Randomocity132]

The 2k limit appears to be per item, and the usage appears to be governed by the amount of square footage used to paint the item.

That's what I understand it to be.

[unseenmage]

The item gives specific texts on what it can create, which does exceed the listed powers of major creation. So, it can create items that appear to be valuable but are really not. I stand by my opinion that alchemical items are not normal nor mudane. I am also of the mind that I would not allow a character to create more thean 2,000gp worth of items using the entire volume of pigment. Whether or not the character can sell the created items for more than that is entirely possible.

It was my understanding that the terms "mundane" and "magical" were used primarily to differentiate magic items from things that are not magic items.

With that in mind Alchemical items are in fact mundane. Which is supported in the rules by their being made with a craft check and not a spell.

But I completely understand that some DMs want more magic in their alchemy, it's understandable. However, to my mind, in a world where spells and magic exist alchemy that was magic would just be called magic with no separate process or terms for it.

[Icewraith]

I sort of expect a character with the Pigments to mostly be painting holes in doors or floors, or whipping up mundane consumables, so I'm usually not too worried about the gp value of what the characters are making.

As for selling things... "Look, it may work perfectly fine, but it looks like my six-year old kid made that full plate. No sale."

[Randomocity132]

As for selling things... "Look, it may work perfectly fine, but it looks like my six-year old kid made that full plate. No sale."

Unless perhaps your PC gets a 30 on his Craft (Painting) Check.

[Eldonauran]

It was my understanding that the terms "mundane" and "magical" were used primarily to differentiate magic items from things that are not magic items.
I find alchemical items skirt the border of non-magical and magical. Thats close enough to not fitting the "ordinary: commonplace, not unusual, and often boring" criteria I use for defining mudane. Using this criteria, I easily cut the 'make tons of high grade poison with my paint' issue right out.


With that in mind Alchemical items are in fact mundane. Which is supported in the rules by their being made with a craft check and not a spell.
Supported, yes. Defined, no.

[unseenmage]

I find alchemical items skirt the border of non-magical and magical. Thats close enough to not fitting the "ordinary: commonplace, not unusual, and often boring" criteria I use for defining mudane. Using this criteria, I easily cut the 'make tons of high grade poison with my paint' issue right out.


Supported, yes. Defined, no.

Still though that smacks of houserule to me. Which again, is fine.

Other things that aren't magic items but can/could/should often be houserules as magic are special materials, esp Livewood (ECS), Living Metal (MoF), and Thinaun Steel (CWa). Not to mention stuff made by spells/powers like Quintessence (RAW after it's made it's no more magic than a Wall of Stone's wall).

There are so many gray areas that I prefer the more RAW standpoint of, 'If it's not a magic item of a Permanent duration magic effect then it's not magic.' (This being a not all-inclusive paraphrasing. There are surely some technically "magic" things which I've forgotten.)

This is also because it's more fun for me when weird magical effects can be placed on technically nonmagic things like Animate Objects on Alchemical Items and Shrink Item on Quintessence.

That's where my fun lies so take my approach as you will.

[Randomocity132]

Still though that smacks of houserule to me. Which again, is fine.

Other things that aren't magic items but can/could/should often be houserules as magic are special materials, esp Livewood (ECS), Living Metal (MoF), and Thinaun Steel (CWa). Not to mention stuff made by spells/powers like Quintessence (RAW after it's made it's no more magic than a Wall of Stone's wall).

There are so many gray areas that I prefer the more RAW standpoint of, 'If it's not a magic item of a Permanent duration magic effect then it's not magic.' (This being a not all-inclusive paraphrasing. There are surely some technically "magic" things which I've forgotten.)

This is also because it's more fun for me when weird magical effects can be placed on technically nonmagic things like Animate Objects on Alchemical Items and Shrink Item on Quintessence.

That's where my fun lies so take my approach as you will.

That's about where I stand. Magic items are defined fairly clearly in the DMG and PHB, and alchemical silver doesn't find itself listed there. As far as being of value, it only costs a few gp to have it applied, so I feel as though it's not a "valuable substance" considering they tacked a 2000gp limit on creation.

[The Random NPC]

With that in mind Alchemical items are in fact mundane. Which is supported in the rules by their being made with a craft check and not a spell.

They can only be made by spell casters, so there's support for it being magic.

[Randomocity132]

They can only be made by spell casters, so there's support for it being magic.

Silvered weapons can't overcome monsters with DR/magic, they don't show up with Detect Magic, and they don't have a limited duration. I think that says it right there.

[The Random NPC]

Silvered weapons can't overcome monsters with DR/magic, they don't show up with Detect Magic, and they don't have a limited duration. I think that says it right there.

I was pointing out that it needing a craft check is not sufficient for it being mundane, as that craft check can only be performed by spellcasters. I do believe they are mundane, you just have to say more than, "It's a craft check, therefore it's mundane."

[Randomocity132]

I was pointing out that it needing a craft check is not sufficient for it being mundane, as that craft check can only be performed by spellcasters. I do believe they are mundane, you just have to say more than, "It's a craft check, therefore it's mundane."

No, it's more along the lines of "It hasn't proved to be magical, therefore it is mundane by default." All items are considered mundane until they are determined to be magical. A silvered dagger has no characteristics of a magical item.



Silver, Alchemical

A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes.

Also, I see nothing here that says you need a spellcaster. I'd say you needed a metalsmith.

[The Random NPC]

No, it's more along the lines of "It hasn't proved to be magical, therefore it is mundane by default." All items are considered mundane until they are determined to be magical. A silvered dagger has no characteristics of a magical item.



Also, I see nothing here that says you need a spellcaster. I'd say you needed a metalsmith.


To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster. If you are working in a city, you can buy what you need as part of the raw materials cost to make the item, but alchemical equipment is difficult or impossible to come by in some places. Purchasing and maintaining an alchemist’s lab grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks because you have the perfect tools for the job, but it does not affect the cost of any items made using the skill.
As you can see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) under the Special section, you must be a spellcaster to use Craft: Alchemy. What you may be thinking of is a regular silver dagger, not an alchemically silvered dagger. Alchemically silvered weapons do the same damage as the regular item, IIRC silver weapons do -1 damage.

[TuggyNE]

As you can see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) under the Special section, you must be a spellcaster to use Craft: Alchemy. What you may be thinking of is a regular silver dagger, not an alchemically silvered dagger. Alchemically silvered weapons do the same damage as the regular item, IIRC silver weapons do -1 damage.

"Silver" and "alchemical silver" are different terms for the same thing, and it is nowhere stated explicitly that alchemical silver requires Craft: Alchemy checks to forge (although it seems like it probably should, but then C: Alchemy probably shouldn't require being a spellcaster, so common sense is no guide here).
Silver Dagger, Masterwork
This masterwork alchemical silver dagger is nonmagical. As a masterwork weapon, it has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

No aura (nonmagical); Price 322 gp.
Silver, Alchemical
A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes.

On a successful attack with a silvered weapon, the wielder takes a -1 penalty on the damage roll (with the usual minimum of 1 point of damage). The alchemical silvering process can’t be applied to nonmetal items, and it doesn’t work on rare metals such as adamantine, cold iron, and mithral.

Alchemical silver has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 8.

[The Random NPC]

"Silver" and "alchemical silver" are different terms for the same thing, and it is nowhere stated explicitly that alchemical silver requires Craft: Alchemy checks to forge (although it seems like it probably should, but then C: Alchemy probably shouldn't require being a spellcaster, so common sense is no guide here).

First: You're right, I must have mis-remembered.
Second: If we aren't talking about Craft:Alchemy, then alchemical silver doesn't really have anything to do with the conversation.

[TuggyNE]

If we aren't talking about Craft:Alchemy, then alchemical silver doesn't really have anything to do with the conversation.

No, it doesn't, does it? I think, though, that it was originally suggested as being a potential candidate for the pigments, even though that fails on account of being MW.

[Randomocity132]

No, it doesn't, does it? I think, though, that it was originally suggested as being a potential candidate for the pigments, even though that fails on account of being MW.

Yeah, I've cut the idea of purchasing the pigments. This more turned into a discussion of what people think the pigments can actually do.