double weapons..

[Askeladd]

so how would they work o.O like damage wise, attacking with 2 2 handed or 1 handed weapons? also does anyone know of anything good for them ive been thinking of using one in a friends campaign

[Gale]

A double weapon follows all the same rules as normal two-weapon fighting does for the sake of penalties and feats. Although you are wielding the weapon with two hands you do not gain the normal 1.5 STR bonus on damage rolls and you suffer the same penalties to attack rolls as if you were using a one-handed weapon in your main hand and a light weapon in your offhand. Therefore the penalties would be -4 on the first hit, -6 on the second. This is all explained in the Player's Handbook on page 160.
Two-weapon fighting does not grant you additional attacks if your base attack bonus if high enough. Example: A character with a base attack bonus of 6/1 using two weapons only has 3 attacks on a full round action, not four.
The damage done with a double weapon depends on the actual weapon itself. If it says it does 1d6/1d3 damage then it does 1d6 damage on the first hit and 1d3 on the second.

Generally, two-weapon fighting (or in your case using a double weapon) is a bad idea. To quote Greenish,

The usually cited problems with TWF:

Feat cost: You need TWF, and you probably want ITWF so you don't feel like a sucker for the jumping through the hoops for a single attack. The gloves help, but many people dislike relying on items for core functions.

Use limits: Full attacks only. If you want to attack with both weapons as a standard, that's a (terrible) feat. If you want to attack with both weapons on AoO, that's a feat. Getting pounce or other free movement is pretty key for most melee builds, but none so much as TWF.

Ability score requirements: Not impossible, but other combat style feats (PA, Combat Expertise, etc.) have noticeably lower requirements.

Damage reduction: You're making more attacks at (usually) lower damage, so DR hurts extra. Also,

Cost of two weapons: You need two [material] weapons to pierce a given DR. You have two weapons to enchant up to snuff. (You do get more from the enhancements that, say, add a flat effect on hit.)

Lack of reach: There are exactly two reach weapons that don't require two hands. Both are exotic, and both are somewhat off the beaten path.

Lack of damage: Having a fixed source of extra damage on each attack basically fixes this, but without such, Power Attack (with all its support) just wipes the table with TWF.


There are numerous threads discussing why it's simply inferior to using a two-handed weapon. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319810) Although it is possible to do it well I would suggest avoiding doing so until you have sufficient enough knowledge on it to make sure you do it properly and aren't simply hindering yourself.

Anyways, I need to stop editing this post.

[Greenish]

And here's the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585) on using TWF, if you still decide to do it.

[Epsilon Rose]

Actually, that's one of the things I never got. Double weapons take the same penalties as having two weapons, must have both their halves enchanted separately, and don't get a bonus for being two handed. What is the point of a double weapon? Why would you ever use it over a normal pair of weapons?

[KillianHawkeye]

You can use a double weapon as a two-handed weapon if you don't make any attacks with the second part of it. Essentially, this allows you to make full attacks using TWF but any time you're restricted to a single attack (on a charge, after moving, etc.) you can use it as a two-hander to get that bit of extra damage and/or Power Attack.

[Khedrac]

Actually, that's one of the things I never got. Double weapons take the same penalties as having two weapons, must have both their halves enchanted separately, and don't get a bonus for being two handed. What is the point of a double weapon? Why would you ever use it over a normal pair of weapons?
It remains one item. This means you can take a hand off to cast a spell without dropping anything. It's a single item for picking up after you are stunned etc.
You can hold it in one hand while you throw daggers/do whatever with your other hand.

Personally I think they are nearly uniformly terrible, but those are the reasons you might prefer one.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It also means you can enchant one side with passive enhancements like Warning or Defending and just use it as a two handed weapon otherwise.

[Gwendol]

They have some minor benefits, such as one target for weapon focus and similar feats, giving the benefit of dual wielding one handed weapons while only suffering the penalty of a light off-hand weapon. But other than that they are rather silly and for the most part require an exotic weapon proficiency to use.

[Askeladd]

If i take a prc level into exotic weapon master, couldnt I essentially use - 2 weapon fighting-,- power attack- and take a stunt that allows me to x2 strength when 2 handing? or more specifically for damage rolls counts the weapon as 2 handed (so that includes 2 weapon fighting?) so that i could do alot of damage? it seems to me that it would be a solidly good route for 2 weapon fighting, and if im using ranger to do so, i could kinda dump dex a bit since i dont need to qualify for the 2 weapon fighting and also get some spellcasting?

[johnbragg]

Actually, that's one of the things I never got. Double weapons take the same penalties as having two weapons, must have both their halves enchanted separately, and don't get a bonus for being two handed. What is the point of a double weapon? Why would you ever use it over a normal pair of weapons?

Because it looks awesome.

I built my first 3E character around the Orc Double-Axe, while staying a base human. I ended up learning optimization through role-playing--at CL 3, he took Wizard 1 instead of Fighter 3 because casting Shield made him a better tank than +1 BAB and some more hit points. Eventually, I regretted taking the double-axe over the quarterstaff because it cost my character a feat, but the doubleaxe was my character's trademark.

Sometimes I used TWF, sometimes I "swung away" two-handed for the x1.5 STR bonus plus Power Attack. If I'd played the character longer, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip would have come into play, together with Enlarge Person and reach weapon shenanigans.

[Greenish]

If i take a prc level into exotic weapon master, couldnt I essentially use - 2 weapon fighting-,- power attack- and take a stunt that allows me to x2 strength when 2 handing?No, Uncanny Blow specifically only works one one-handed exotic weapons, and double weapons are two-handed (barring a few poorly thought-out Dragon Magazine weapons).


or more specifically for damage rolls counts the weapon as 2 handed (so that includes 2 weapon fighting?) so that i could do alot of damage?Most interpret double weapons to work as a one-hander and light weapon pair in all respects, when using two-weapon fighting.

The capstone of Revenant Blade (PGtE PrC) allows you to treat both ends of the Valenar Double Scimitar as two-handed weapons, though.

[Xervous]

One of my favorite examples of double weapon use is with the monk archetype.

Ingredients:


3 levels of shou disciple
1 level of shiba protector
1 or 2 levels of monk
intuitive attack (feat)
as many TWF feats as you please, gloves of the balanced hands can help here if you only want TWF and are worried about MAD (which you should be)
snap kick (feat)
power attack (feat), can be gotten from the first level of monk
pounce, because why not?


So the monk makes a leaping charge at his enemy, whirling his quarterstaff and kicking his enemy's teeth out in his spare time.

Your options: mix and match as you please among the letters

A. Two weapon fighting or two handed fighting with the quarterstaff
B. Two weapon fighting with the unarmed strike
C. Flurry of blows with the unarmed strike
D. Charging
E. Power attacking

So yes, you can be two handed fighting while you two weapon fight while you flurry while you power attack while charging... And you'll actually be doing a respectable amount of damage for a melee character. Mind you, it does eat up a lot of your feats for prereqs but there are ways to deal with that.

[ranagrande]

No, Uncanny Blow specifically only works one one-handed exotic weapons, and double weapons are two-handed (barring a few poorly thought-out Dragon Magazine weapons).

There is an easy way around that though. You can use a double weapon designed for a creature one size category smaller than you at a -2 penalty as a one-handed weapon.

[bekeleven]

Disagreement:

Double weapons clarify that when fighting with both hands, you use the penalties to attack rolls associated with two-weapon fighting using a one-handed and a light weapon.

Nowhere is it stated that damage is changed to use TWF rules.

Therefore, since both sides are strikes from a weapon you are holding in both hands, both sides get +1.5x Str to damage and grant 2:1 Power Attack Returns.

This was a multipage argument (just start in the middle here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304817&page=20)) in the dysfunctional rulebook. Simply put, the damage modifications of THW, or lack thereof, were never explicitly clarified in the PHB. My interpretation (which is totally right) is above. But frankly, the situation is ambiguous enough that it basically comes down to GM call.

If your GM is giving you flak on it, just TWF using a spiked chain and spiked armor. (which has its own (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16643154#post16643154) issues.)

[Techwarrior]

Disagreement:

Double weapons clarify that when fighting with both hands, you use the penalties to attack rolls associated with two-weapon fighting using a one-handed and a light weapon.

Nowhere is it stated that damage is changed to use TWF rules.

Therefore, since both sides are strikes from a weapon you are holding in both hands, both sides get +1.5x Str to damage and grant 2:1 Power Attack Returns.

Sadly this part isn't true. Power Attack explicitly deals damage as a one handed and light weapon.

We tend to houserule otherwise though.

[bekeleven]

Sadly this part isn't true. Power Attack explicitly deals damage as a one handed and light weapon.

We tend to houserule otherwise though.

Power attack is intended to deal damage as a one handed and a light weapon, but by RAW this is what it says:


If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls....[Snip] Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.

Note that the second clause seems to contradict the first.

However, the second clause is so dysfunctional that the only reasonable way to interpret it as a rule is to discard it:


If I and holding a two-bladed sword with a locked gauntlet in my right hand, and someone disarms me of my "light weapon", they are now holding the other end of the sword and can run away with it.
Ergo, the second clause clearly doesn't mean that you treat a double weapon as 1H+Light in all situations.
Ergo, the feat says only what it explicitly states. Which is (a) that two-handed weapons deal double, that (b) double weapons are considered 1H/Light in some circumstances, which we already knew, and that (c) two-handed weapons, wielded with one side, behave exactly like you'd expect.


The two-weapon fighting section of the SRD, meanwhile, makes no statement about double weapon damage.

[Techwarrior]

Looking back over the feat again, I can see your point. It isn't worded well at all. I could have sworn it was more explicit. Seems that houserule was unnecessary. Carry on.

[Askeladd]

what if i have weapon finesse? does that mean that i treat my offhand attack with my dex if its higher? since afterall your turning the 2 handed weapon into a "light and one handed weapon" right? i saw the discussion but saw no one post weapon finesse for the sake of rules dysfunction, o.O

[Askeladd]

No, Uncanny Blow specifically only works one one-handed exotic weapons, and double weapons are two-handed (barring a few poorly thought-out Dragon Magazine weapons).

Most interpret double weapons to work as a one-hander and light weapon pair in all respects, when using two-weapon fighting.
i dont get it though, so i cant gain benefits from using it as a one hander and light weapon when two weapon fighting for other feats or things like uncanny blow, but when i wanna use it for strength or power attack its now not a 2 handed weapon its a one handed and light weapon, people use the same arguement and contradict themselves o.O???????? wouldnt that be one or the other? cus if im wrong, its only about one of them then
what if i use weapon finesse? do i get it for the light weapon? how does that work,



The capstone of Revenant Blade (PGtE PrC) allows you to treat both ends of the Valenar Double Scimitar as two-handed weapons, though. does tat mean i get like -4 /-6 to attack with it then? or that i instatly cant wield the weapon since its two, two handed weapons and i need both hands to wield each one.

[Piggy Knowles]

My best guess is that the designers thought that a slightly larger weapon size was SO POWERFUL that they built in a bunch of drawbacks to double weapons, such as those mentioned here.

Because dang, it would be pretty overpowered to use a double sword and deal a whopping 1d8 damage with my offhand, instead of the 1d6 that those schmucks who are stuck with short swords are dealing. I mean, dang, that's like an extra point of damage every full attack! Watch out! Better make a bunch of really confusing rules and add an additional feat tax to keep this baby from taking over everyone's game.

[bekeleven]

My best guess is that the designers thought that a slightly larger weapon size was SO POWERFUL that they built in a bunch of drawbacks to double weapons, such as those mentioned here.

Because dang, it would be pretty overpowered to use a double sword and deal a whopping 1d8 damage with my offhand, instead of the 1d6 that those schmucks who are stuck with short swords are dealing. I mean, dang, that's like an extra point of damage every full attack! Watch out! Better make a bunch of really confusing rules and add an additional feat tax to keep this baby from taking over everyone's game.

The real issue is if I'm a level 11fighter/1Barb with power attack, leap attack, shock trooper and TWF. I have gloves of the balanced hand for ITWF. Let's be conservative and assume my strength is 26 when raging. If I want to go at someone swinging, I have 4 attacks. If my +1/+1 double sword is counted as two-handed:

4 attacks
+12 Damage on each hit due to Str
-12 AC per power full attack (Shock trooper)
+12 damage (base), * 2 (Leap attack), * 4 (attacks), * 2 (two-handed weapon).

So ignoring damage dice, enhancement, crits, etc (AKA the actual weapon), I hit 4 times and deal 12(Str) + 48 (PA) per hit. That's a total damage of 240.

Let's calculate the same if my weapons are 1H and light.

4 attacks
+8 Damage on two, +4 damage on the other two due to Str
PA deals +12 Damage, *2 (Leap Attack), *2 (Attacks that get the PA buff), *1 (1H weapon multiplier).

My primary hand hits and deals 8 (Str) +24 (PA) per hit, and my off-hand deals 4 damage per hit. Total damage per attack: closer to 72. Obviously I'm not including crits, weapon damage dice, enhancements, etc. But it's still quite a difference.

[Techwarrior]

The real issue is if I'm a level 11fighter/1Barb with power attack, leap attack, shock trooper and TWF. I have gloves of the balanced hand for ITWF. Let's be conservative and assume my strength is 26 when raging. If I want to go at someone swinging, I have 4 attacks. If my +1/+1 double sword is counted as two-handed:

4 attacks
+12 Damage on each hit due to Str
-12 AC per power full attack (Shock trooper)
+12 damage (base), * 2 (Leap attack), * 4 (attacks), * 2 (two-handed weapon).

So ignoring damage dice, enhancement, crits, etc (AKA the actual weapon), I hit 4 times and deal 12(Str) + 48 (PA) per hit. That's a total damage of 240.

Let's calculate the same if my weapons are 1H and light.

4 attacks
+8 Damage on two, +4 damage on the other two due to Str
PA deals +12 Damage, *2 (Leap Attack), *2 (Attacks that get the PA buff), *1 (1H weapon multiplier).

My primary hand hits and deals 8 (Str) +24 (PA) per hit, and my off-hand deals 4 damage per hit. Total damage per attack: closer to 72. Obviously I'm not including crits, weapon damage dice, enhancements, etc. But it's still quite a difference.

That's much more an example of shock trooper being broken than the double weapon rules being broken. If you have to deal with the actual drawback of power attack it is a much smaller difference.