Anthropomorphic Bat vs Raven

[GhengisConrad]

Looking over those two anthros in SS.

Seriously, why play as a raven? Bats get favorable stats, better flight, and blindsight as well Spot and Listen Bonuses....

Base Speed is 5 less flight speed is 10 less and dex is traded to strength... but this is worth losing maneuverability, blindsight, charisma, and wisdom?

I'm slapping feral on either of them, so being 'blind as a bat' isn't an issue either as I'll be gaining dark-vision 60...

I like the roleplaying of a Raven more. So much evermore cooler than a silly old rat with wings... but my slavery to Role-Playing can only go so far...

Thoughts? Derisive comments?

[AMFV]

All anthropomorphic animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

[SowZ]

Looking over those two anthros in SS.

Seriously, why play as a raven? Bats get favorable stats, better flight, and blindsight as well Spot and Listen Bonuses....

Base Speed is 5 less flight speed is 10 less and dex is traded to strength... but this is worth losing maneuverability, blindsight, charisma, and wisdom?

I'm slapping feral on either of them, so being 'blind as a bat' isn't an issue either as I'll be gaining dark-vision 60...

I like the roleplaying of a Raven more. So much evermore cooler than a silly old rat with wings... but my slavery to Role-Playing can only go so far...

Thoughts? Derisive comments?

You have a good race either way, picking Raven for your concept is a good idea. Picking pre determined crunch limits allows you to optimize with less guilt. A concept like, "Gray Orc Wizard" is actually good for someone who wants to build a powerful character. Because the tables are slightly turned against them from the get go so they shouldn't have to reign it in for the groups sake quite so much.

[Pluto!]

Balance? In Savage Species?

(That's the cue to start laughing wildly)

[GhengisConrad]

I know there is no balance; but I am hoping for some convoluted explaination, or some Raven ablity small detail I missed, or something that leads me to pick the raven!

[Chronos]

I like the roleplaying of a Raven more. So much evermore cooler than a silly old rat with wings...
Correction: So much nevermore cooler.

And I think that the races in Savage Species were balanced on the basis of how good a fighter they'd make. Because, you know, we have to keep fighters from getting any more overpowered than they already are.

[Red Fel]

A simple explanation.

A group of bats is vengeance. They are the night. They are crippled by a Silence spell.

A group of ravens, though? That's just unkind.

The actual answer is flavor. With Savage Species, the answer is always either "flavor" or "because it's so awesomely broken." Or both.

[GhengisConrad]

A simple explanation.

A group of bats is vengeance. They are the night. They are crippled by a Silence spell.

A group of ravens, though? That's just unkind.

The actual answer is flavor. With Savage Species, the answer is always either "flavor" or "because it's so awesomely broken." Or both.

With Feral's Darkvision I mean... not so crippled by silence anymore eh?

btw, nevermore and unkind jokes. Classic!

For flavor I play a Shadowlord Melee Chracter. For flavor I insist on building that shadowlord with a feral half-minotaur and a 'small' base (so as to play a medium).

Now the Gods of flavor want me to betray the Gods of optimization for dark purple wings and a bunch of awesome puns and Poe references?!

[Red Fel]

With Feral's Darkvision I mean... not so crippled by silence anymore eh?

btw, nevermore and unkind jokes. Classic!

For flavor I play a Shadowlord Melee Chracter. For flavor I insist on building that shadowlord with a feral half-minotaur and a 'small' base (so as to play a medium).

Now the Gods of flavor want me to betray the Gods of optimization for dark purple wings and a bunch of awesome puns and Poe references?!

"No man can serve two masters." You may offer some service to the King of Flavor, and some service to the Optimized One, but only one of them may command your loyalty.

As for me? I'm a rebel. I optimize for flavor.

Also, raven motifs are totally more wicked than bat ones. I mean, sure, Batman is creepy and all, until you realize how lame bats look when compared with a flock of cawing, massive birds with nothing but death in their eyes. Watching, always watching. Throw on a black cape, raven familiar, vanish in a cloud of black feathers... Ravens have style, chief.

[GhengisConrad]

Also, raven motifs are totally more wicked than bat ones. I mean, sure, Batman is creepy and all, until you realize how lame bats look when compared with a flock of cawing, massive birds with nothing but death in their eyes. Watching, always watching. Throw on a black cape, raven familiar, vanish in a cloud of black feathers... Ravens have style, chief.

and I like to flavorize the optimum...

BTW, such a badass purpletext... You're torturing me!

I even thought, hey! Lets update the animal characteristics to 3.5 animal stats... but you see, the table's stated level adjustments are based on 3.0 animal stats, right? So if I updated to 3.5 Raven stats, then I'd have to recalibrate? Right?

[GhengisConrad]

Aha! Weapon Finesse (Claws). Ravens get to have and keep that... Bats do not.

So... now I have some kind of a reason...

thing is, being half-minotaur and feral, I'm really more of a strength build...

any RAW precedent for switching one feat for another someway some how?

[Red Fel]

Aha! Weapon Finesse (Claws). Ravens get to have and keep that... Bats do not.

So... now I have some kind of a reason...

thing is, being half-minotaur and feral, I'm really more of a strength build...

any RAW precedent for switching one feat for another someway some how?

PHB II outlines feat retraining. Whether it's allowed varies by table, but many DMs are okay with it provided you comply with the rules.

Although, if Weapon Finesse (Claws) is given to Ravens because it's inherently Raven-y as opposed to simply training with their agile little pricklers, a DM might rule that it's not retrainable.

[ko_sct]

That would be like an elf retraining his weapon proficiency feats, not allowed by RAW. (though, it make more sense for the elf to be able since they clearly come from some kind of training)

You can always dark chaos shuffle it though.