Impress me with a cleric

[Spuddles]

Anyone have any cleric builds floating around that are more complex than buff->pretend to be a fighter?

For that matter, anyone know which spells make cleric T1? Stuff like Guidance of the Avatar or Stone Shape, not another marginal increase to attacks spell.

I'm always at a loss for what spells to prep as a cleric. Spending have my slots and actions to mimic a fighter seems so... wasteful.

[AMFV]

Anyone have any cleric builds floating around that are more complex than buff->pretend to be a fighter?

For that matter, anyone know which spells make cleric T1? Stuff like Guidance of the Avatar or Stone Shape, not another marginal increase to attacks spell.

I'm always at a loss for what spells to prep as a cleric. Spending have my slots and actions to mimic a fighter seems so... wasteful.

Miracle is good, you can optimize Holy Word or Blasphemy to be really good, good domains include Magic, and Spell, which give you quite a variety of other effects. Clerics also have most of the really good fear spells. They have access to a lot of good summoning stuff, not quite as good as druids, but at least on par with wizards. They have a lot of reactive defenses.

The main flaw is that domains are somewhat limiting, once you've picked a domain it does block out several other options that's why spell and magic are so good. Alternatively a gnome cleric with the right domains can enter shadowcraft mage and have that whole bit of cheese right there. Which is pretty good on a cleric chassis.

Clerics have access to many of the good wizard tricks, although not all of them. Also you can DMM Quicken, which is pretty insane for a caster, if you're going primary caster cleric, I'd take DMM Quicken over DMM Persist, it's also less feat intensive. It will definitely let you break the action economy, you could even combine it with RKV, although that's burning a lot of turn attempts.

Also you have more monetary funds than a wizard has, since you don't have to buy spells, which gives you quite a few very useful options, since you now don't need to get flight off a spell, you can use an item, you have many more item options than a wizard does, barring of course economy breaking shenanigans.

And the best part is that even with all of that... you can still play fake fighter if you need to, you can switch your whole strategy from day to day as easy as pie, and you know all, ALL of your spells, that's a pretty swanky thing, no?

[NotScaryBats]

Dark Way is my favorite cleric spell, and is a good example of a utility cleric spell. It makes a bridge, staircase, ramp, etc from one point to another, and can trivialize all sorts of environmental challenges.

Chasm? Pit? Pressure plates? Wall? Need to descend / ascend? This spell can get not only you, but your party around this stuff.

You get up to 20 ft / lvl of bridge to work with, 5 ft wide, and 200 lbs of support / CL. Only lasts 1 round / level, but that's usually enough time.

It is a level 2 spell.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Also, you can set the bridge up vertically to block chokepoints. Granted it's not perfect since enemies can get through if enough of them push up against it (not to mention the low duration), but if you're indoors it can easily help divide and conquer. I love it.

[Spuddles]

Ehhh, if I was going to fret over cleric domains, I'd just play the class that got those spells natively. It's kind of telling how awful the cleric list is when domain optimization is a key part of a build. Though DMM persist tends to just be that good. Funny how all cookie-cutter clerics seem to be wannabe liches. Undeath & planning? I know what you're up to.


Also, you can set the bridge up vertically to block chokepoints. Granted it's not perfect since enemies can get through if enough of them push up against it (not to mention the low duration), but if you're indoors it can easily help divide and conquer. I love it.

Ooh, clever.

[geekintheground]

but if you played the classes that get access to the spells natively, you wouldnt get access to the whole of the cleric list. to me, what makes cleric so awesome is that it CAN mimic the fighter, the wizard, and the druid all core. and you can change daily. AND you can heal. theyre just THAT versatile.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Ehhh, if I was going to fret over cleric domains, I'd just play the class that got those spells natively. It's kind of telling how awful the cleric list is when domain optimization is a key part of a build. Though DMM persist tends to just be that good. Funny how all cookie-cutter clerics seem to be wannabe liches. Undeath & planning? I know what you're up to.

Here's a dirty little secret: Most domain lists are complete crap (heck, there's more than one domain with no spells on it that aren't already cleric spells of the same level or lower!). And even among the domains that aren't crap, there's usually only one or two winners on the spell list and the rest of them are useless chaff. Granted powers generally aren't that much better: Almost all of them are fiddly little fluff abilities that you'll often forget you even have. The best granted powers are the ones that give you bonus feats (like Planning, Undeath, and Elf), and even then mostly so you can meet requirements more easily. This is why Divine Magician is usually a good trade, unless your build needs both of your domain slots for some reason.

All of a Cleric's power comes from the cleric spell list, which, don't forget, is the second most powerful spell list in the entire game. Those sweet offensive and BC options are totally there, you just have to put a bit more effort in looking for them.


Also, Planning and Undeath are totally unnecessary to take advantage of DMM: Persist, they just make things a tad easier (they're only required if you absolutely have to be persisting from level 1 and can't take flaws). You can be an effective Persistomancer with any domains you want.

[AMFV]

Again Undeath and Planning aren't the only options either, as I've pointed out DMM Persist on a straight caster cleric is probably a worse option as compared to DMM Quicken which works extremely well for getting some very juicy casting options out very quickly.

[eggynack]

All of a Cleric's power comes from the cleric spell list, which, don't forget, is the second most powerful spell list in the entire game. Those sweet offensive and BC options are totally there, you just have to put a bit more effort in looking for them.
But it is my desire that you put in the effort for me. Or, y'know, someone who is not you. To be more serious about it, it just feels like there's something about the cleric list that's never really resonated with me in the same way that the druid and wizard lists have. It might have something to do with the fact that, in what is apparently the main cleric handbook, the spell section is literally just a list of spells with no reasoning or explanation.

It's also possible that the lack of resonance is due to the fact that the cleric's style doesn't really match my own, which is to turn all warfare into attrition warfare, and deplete all of the enemy's resources before reaching they reach their inevitable defeat. At least I don't think they do that as well as a druid does. Anyway, the upshot of that is that when folks ask about tier one classes, I tend to give a reasonably long explanation about wizards, a potentially massive explanation about druids, and a shrug about clerics.

[AMFV]

But it is my desire that you put in the effort for me. Or, y'know, someone who is not you. To be more serious about it, it just feels like there's something about the cleric list that's never really resonated with me in the same way that the druid and wizard lists have. It might have something to do with the fact that, in what is apparently the main cleric handbook, the spell section is literally just a list of spells with no reasoning or explanation.

It's also possible that the lack of resonance is due to the fact that the cleric's style doesn't really match my own, which is to turn all warfare into attrition warfare, and deplete all of the enemy's resources before reaching they reach their inevitable defeat. At least I don't think they do that as well as a druid does. Anyway, the upshot of that is that when folks ask about tier one classes, I tend to give a reasonably long explanation about wizards, a potentially massive explanation about druids, and a shrug about clerics.

Well it's possible that you don't like the style of a cleric, I find that they can be played in similar fashion to wizards with the right domains and domain spontaneity. Of course now you might say that this is part of the domain's power, but that is fundamentally a feature of the cleric class.

It really depends on what you're trying to build, a BFC is probably buildable, although potentially it will trail a wizard, depending on how you build it. A debuffer is certainly possible, and you definitely do that in a good fashion, buffer is easy for a cleric. Summoner is pretty amazing as a build for a cleric, again using domain spontaneity.

[Eldariel]

There are lots of great domains. Transformation, Celerity, Time, Spell, Magic, Luck, Travel, etc. There are also lots of great Domain powers: Luck, Pride, Magic, Inquisition, etc. There's a reason Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment gets brought up so often; a Cleric Domain power, when selected well, is almost always worth a feat.

Cleric's power comes from turning, domain + spontaneous domain casting (you can get 5-6 domains with PRCs like Divine Oracle, Contemplative, Radiant Servant, Church Inquisitor, etc.) allowing you a much wider spell selection and Domain Spontaneity feat allows you to spontaneously cast from auxillary Domains too. This makes Cleric able to have a wide variety of spontaneous spells on all levels in addition to having her normal spells. In addition, Cleric's Divine Metamagic and Divine Spell Power allow him to surpass restrictions on spell levels in the class's core chassis with ease.

There are also lots of caster level buffing items primed at divine classes specifically; Ankh of Ascension, Beads of Karma, etc. It's not hard to over double your caster level as a Cleric. Indeed, increasing Cleric caster level is ridiculously easy compared to Wizard (or arcane casters in general) which makes spells like Blasphemy, Spell Resistance & co. stupidly powerful when cast by Clerics.

Evil Clerics also have the option of having an additional Undead-pool with Commanded Undead in addition to Animated Undead which gives you a lot of good underlings (just pick what you get carefully; couple of free fighters never hurt anyone). Also, there's always Consumptive Field if you want insane caster level to one-shot everything not-magic-immune.


Basically, Caster Cleric is frankly on par with Caster Wizard for most part of their career (before ~8th-9th level spells, since there are many good arcane 9s in particular that a Cleric can't replicate easily, while Cleric gets Miracle which is awesome but not really enough to turn the tables alone). Advantages a Cleric gets:
- Easier metamagic
- Easier caster level boosting
- Easy access to spells outside class list (Domains and especially Anyspell, and later Miracle, give Cleric basically free access to almost all spells in the game without tricks with Shapechange/Gate/Simulacrum/etc. which he's also capable of pulling)
- Good basic list

Obviously, Wizard with Uncanny Forethought and Spontaneous Divination is more or less a Sorcerer with infinite spells known and fast spell level progression, while Cleric is more restricted in the spells he can cast easily spontaneously but overall there tend to be cookie-cutter solutions to most problems.

Cleric also has an easy time buffing to be a superfighter and making everyone else in the party much stronger overall; Cleric has lots of key buffs (Spell Immunity, Mass Spell Resistance, Mass Freedom of Movement, Heroes' Feast, Mass Shield of Faith, Recitation, Mass Lesser Vigor/Vigorous Circle, etc.) Basically, Cleric is a massive force multiplier and thanks to the ease of caster level buffing as a Cleric, it's very hard to dispel a Cleric's buffs. Cleric can also take Divine Defiance for action-effective countermagic with ease, and Inquisition Domain sets up good basic shell for that.

Cleric can buff while casting. Cleric can also be a superfighter who's impossible to kill while still being a full caster. Superfighter ability comes relatively early and is convenient in that if you face lesser enemies (basically any non-spellcasters), you can kill them without wasting spellslots using mundane tools to conserve the actually relevant resources. Cleric doesn't need underlings or allies to do this (though he's fully capable of producing both and Cleric buffing is at least on par with Bard buffing, doubly so with Divine Metamagic to use an extreme array of party buffs).

[Spuddles]

All of a Cleric's power comes from the cleric spell list, which, don't forget, is the second most powerful spell list in the entire game. Those sweet offensive and BC options are totally there, you just have to put a bit more effort in looking for them.

I see this a lot, but where, where are these Cleric spells that are so great? I see stuff like Prayer or Righteous Wrath of the Faithful or Divine Power, but those are basically the weapon focus of spells.


Also, Planning and Undeath are totally unnecessary to take advantage of DMM: Persist, they just make things a tad easier (they're only required if you absolutely have to be persisting from level 1 and can't take flaws). You can be an effective Persistomancer with any domains you want.

I dont subscribe to nightsticks stacking, so yeah, they're kinda necessary, especially if you plan on derping around as a fighter pre-level 10.

[Eldariel]

I dont subscribe to nightsticks stacking, so yeah, they're kinda necessary, especially if you plan on derping around as a fighter pre-level 10.

A Human, Strongheart Halfling or anyone with Flaws does just fine without 'em; it just means you need to take Extra Turning a bunch of times. Even without stacking, one Nightstick and a Reliquary Holy Symbol is a nice boost and hell, if you happen to have bonus Charisma, that's always extra. There's also Turning Pool stacking if you want to go big.

[Greenish]

couple of free fighters never hurt anyoneDoesn't that defeat the point? :smalltongue:

[nedz]

Most of a Clerics spells are for buffing the party or countering other casters (which are force multipliers) but if you think outside of the usual boxes you can make some interesting characters.

Clerics make excellent summoners or necromancers, if minion control is your thing.

You can make a solid Archer or even an occasional Skillmonkey.

You can have an Illusion theme, if you are creative. Gnome or Illusion domain plus Trickery is good. This works best with Spontaneous Clerics or at least Spontaneous domain casting — otherwise you run out of domain spells.

Elemental themed clerics are weaker, but can be fun.

[Kaeso]

Also you have more monetary funds than a wizard has, since you don't have to buy spells, which gives you quite a few very useful options, since you now don't need to get flight off a spell, you can use an item, you have many more item options than a wizard does, barring of course economy breaking shenanigans.

Except a Cleric doesn't need that. With the feat "animal devotion" a cleric can get on-demand flight for two minutes multiple times a day (1 + his number of Turn Undead uses). In situations where he doesn't need flight he can instead gain an ever useful strength increase, a marginal land speed bonus or a natural bite attack that causes CON damage. And then there's the Air Walk spell, which allows a cleric to walk in the air for 10 min/level, which is effectively the same as flying with normal manouverability, with only one flaw: you can't go straight up.

IMHO an item for flight on a cleric is a waste of money, as he already has numerous options for flight. Actually, a cleric with animal devotion can get flight quicker and more reliably than a wizard. For low level shenanigangs combine this with a reach weapon and fly 10 ft. above your (hopefully medium sized) enemy and you can swat away while they're can't do anything (there aren't many <CR5 monsters/npcs with flight). Even an archer will provoke an attack of opportunity for trying to fire while in melee combat.

[Spuddles]

Animal Devotion is no Alter Self.

Someone's already laid down the dubious "second best spell list claim"- can anyone support this with examples? Ideally a level by level break down would be great, with a side-by-side comparison of wizard and druid.

[strider24seven]

Divine Magician ACF lets you cherry-pick from the wiz/sorc list. Go nuts.

[Gwendol]

Of all the spells at all the levels? Seems tedious, why can't you just drink the cool-aid and be happy with it? This thread looks like a badly disguised "Clerics aren't really T1" trolling attempt.

[sjeshin]

Anyone have any cleric builds floating around that are more complex than buff->pretend to be a fighter?

For that matter, anyone know which spells make cleric T1? Stuff like Guidance of the Avatar or Stone Shape, not another marginal increase to attacks spell.

I'm always at a loss for what spells to prep as a cleric. Spending have my slots and actions to mimic a fighter seems so... wasteful.

Well I have a build for you, as well as some of the spells that make them T1. They are T1 because their spells and class abilities allow them to accomplish any goal another class could, though it may be through different means. You can run melee damage with a lot of them. You can actually disarm traps and search for them as a rogue if you take the kobold domain. You can do it with spells if you don't, you just have to be creative. You can heal once combat is over, remove permanant effects the party will really want removed, and you have some very powerful control / offensive spells. Even at low levels you have good spells for just about every situation, and you can change them daily.

Spells that (I think) make clerics T1 based on how the tier system is defined:

Shatter: Breaks locks, sunders armor, or just breaks the door you want through.

Summon monster: This allows you to send in a copy of a creature to "check for traps", fight in combat, and in some cases help with RP situations.

Ice slick: cleric's version of grease from a supplementals book. Knock enemies prone if they fail, if they don't have balance as a skill they are flat footed even if they make the save.

Miracle:Just read the entry. You can save Pompeii with it.

Vigor: You can heal efficiently with a cheap wand of this. (out of combat of course.)

Close wounds: Keep someone up and fighting, only in combat healing I recommend.

Venom bolt: Line of acid, reflex or damage, fortitude or paralyzed.

Shivering touch: 3d6 dexterity damage. Melee touch no save. Gross with reach metamagic. (I am given to understand a lot of DM's do not allow this spell.)

Lesser Holy transformation: You can str/ and con no big deal... oh, and a fly speed of 60 with good manuverability. MANY problems can be countered by simply being able to fly. Duration not long enough for you? Persist it.


I think if you're tired of trying to melee as hard as the barbarian (which you have to try really hard to do if he's optimized too) you might like this build. Read all the feats carefully as well as the spell anyspell. It does work, if a little cheesed. You will feel like you are useful at ALL times, especially in combat. This is also a really cool build if your DM sends a lot of SLA users and spellcasters at you, and still great if it's only occasional.

My DM / when I DM we play RAW (with a gentleman's agreement that more than one night stick isn't what we want in our game.) with an 80 point buy from 0. Use whatever stats you get and put them in with wisdom top priority, charisma second, then con third. This build is Cleric 3 / Church Inquisitor 5. It does use flaws and one night stick, but you really don't have to if you don't want to quicken a lot of spells.

Human
Str 10, Dex 10, con 14, int 10, wis 20, cha, 18

Domains: Spell, undeath, and then inquisitor from church inquisitor class.

Feats:
lvl1 Quicken Spell
human Divine metamagic Quicken
undeath domain extra turning
flaw 1 inattentive
flaw 2 shaky
flaw feat 1 extra turning
flaw feat 2 extra turning
lvl 3 divine defiance
lvl 6 arcane mastery

Items: One night stick for 4 T/U attempts, and 1 reliquary holy symbol for 2 more T/U attempts. This gives you a total of 21 T/U attempts.

This build allows you to take arcane mastery ONLY if you have the spell domain. The spell domain grants you access to the spell anyspell. Any spell does not replicate an arcane spell, it allows you to prepare an arcane spell, then cast it as an arcane spell.

In short, you can spend 5 T/U attempts to quicken a spell, allowing you to summon a monster / buff, or summon a monster / cast a control spell, ETC all in the same turn. You can also, without readying an action at all, counter any spell and / or spell like ability by spending 1 T/U attempt. You must always keep dispel magic prepared to do this, meaning don't cast it. (much like a reserve feat.)

Because you are using dispel magic as a counter you must make a dispel check to actually counter it. You only have to beat 11 + their caster level. You get to add your caster level (8), inquisition domain power (4) to this, as well as take 10 on the check(arcane mastery). This gives you a "roll" of 24, making the dc of any caster lvl 13 and lower at lvl 8.

You can cast hold person, then shatter another guy's armor on your turn. Then that same round, if a baddy casts a spell, you can just counter it unless you're facing down a lvl 14 caster or better.(Keep in mind if you DO counter a spell this way, you can not quicken a spell on your next turn.) If you want to, you can also prepare dispel magic more than once, and use it in some cases to just remove powerful buffs from baddies with little / no chance of failure. You're also completely immune to compulsion and charm effects. Fighter wannabe's can't do that.

[sjeshin]

I dont subscribe to nightsticks stacking, so yeah, they're kinda necessary, especially if you plan on derping around as a fighter pre-level 10.

Any cleric with a charisma score of 18 can perisist a spell with divine metamagic. You also don't need nightsticks to stack. One nightstick, reliquary holy symbol, +charisma items and buffs, flaws if you want, or even just taking extra turning at lvl 3 if you are a human. It will never be as many turn undead attempts, but it is still reasonable to do it.

For good offensive spells:

Wrack, venom bolt, hold person, shivering touch, necrotic cyst (with reach meta / build specificly for it or RP uses) animate dead, summon monster, conjure ice beast, ice slick, harm, and planar ally are a few. All of those are lvl 4 or below, and off the top of my head.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I see this a lot, but where, where are these Cleric spells that are so great? I see stuff like Prayer or Righteous Wrath of the Faithful or Divine Power, but those are basically the weapon focus of spells.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284509)'s a huge list of great cleric spells: I reference it all the time when I'm looking for ideas as to how to prepare my spell selection.

Though you know, someone really should write an "Offensive Cleric Guide" for players who want to play a cleric who uses BC and save-or-lose spells, complete with explanations as to why each spell is good and spell ratings. Hmm...


I dont subscribe to nightsticks stacking, so yeah, they're kinda necessary, especially if you plan on derping around as a fighter pre-level 10.

You don't need nightsticks to stack either.

Cloistered Cleric (Rebuke Dragons ACF) 7/Sacred Exorcist 1/Dread Necromancer 1

1 - Extend Spell
H - Persistent Spell
F - Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
F - Extra Turning
3 - Extra Turning
6 - Extra Turning
9 - Extra Turning

Assuming 10 charisma and no items at all, here's what your turn attempt progression looks like:

1 - 7 attempts (enough for 1 spell, and you've already got all of your materials online!)
3 - 11 attempts (still 1 spell)
6 - 15 attempts (2 spells)
8 - 30 attempts (4 spells)
9 - 57 attempts (8 spells)

Investing in Charisma and picking up a nightstick and a reliquary holy symbol pushes these numbers even higher, and that's without the planning or undeath domains. And if you keep taking Extra Turning you'll get even more, but honestly 8 persistent spells per day is all a sane build will ever need: Any more and you're heading into TO territory. If you want to go absolutely nuts with turn attempt optimization, pick up Planning and Undeath and get 18 CHA (putting the extra feats this frees up into more extra turning), and your turn attempt progression looks like this:

1 - 19 attempts (2 spells)
3 - 23 attempts (3 spells)
6 - 27 attempts (3 spells)
8 - 54 attempts (7 spells)
9 - 93 attempts (13 spells)

All that nightstick stacking does for you is let you trade investment in feats with investment in gold: Which is a good deal, but unless you're doing a crazy TO build that persists a bajillion spells every day, it's just not necessary. Note also that DMM: Quicken costs only 5 attempts per use (and doesn't require Extend Spell), and is thus easier to optimize than Persist.

[ArqArturo]

'pretend to be a fighter'!?

Does a fighter call down fire and lightning? No. Does a fighter bring entire armies from the brink of death, or rise them in undeath? No. Does a fighter can take a full attack from a balrog, spit back blood at it, and smite it with fiery determination? ... Maybe.

All kidding aside, cloistered cleric is usually the way to go to begin a full-casting cleric. Hell, take an Illumian with the apropriate sigils, either to add a die to your healing, or to transform two turning checks into metamagic effects, grab metamagic feats and become a force of destruction.

[CombatOwl]

Anyone have any cleric builds floating around that are more complex than buff->pretend to be a fighter?

For that matter, anyone know which spells make cleric T1? Stuff like Guidance of the Avatar or Stone Shape, not another marginal increase to attacks spell.

I'm always at a loss for what spells to prep as a cleric. Spending have my slots and actions to mimic a fighter seems so... wasteful.

In Pathfinder, clerics of Madness have a touch ability that allows you to impose a -10 to any two of; attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks. In return, the target gets a +10 to the third choice. Meaning that you can touch someone and give them a -10 to attacks and saves, in exchange for a +10 to skill checks. For three rounds. This ability is usable 3 + Wis mod times a day.

Oh, did I mention it has no save?

This is the core of a tremendously stupid bad touch cleric build. You open with Vision of Madness to reduce saves by -10. You then Greater Bestow Curse them to either decrease saves by -6 more, or make them give up 50% of their actions. You then choose a type-appropriate form of debuffing or outright slaying. At -16 to saves, not many living things will save vs. harm or slay living. Or implosion. There are very few things that can survive two rounds of failed saves vs. implosion--incorporeal things are about it.

[AMFV]

Except a Cleric doesn't need that. With the feat "animal devotion" a cleric can get on-demand flight for two minutes multiple times a day (1 + his number of Turn Undead uses). In situations where he doesn't need flight he can instead gain an ever useful strength increase, a marginal land speed bonus or a natural bite attack that causes CON damage. And then there's the Air Walk spell, which allows a cleric to walk in the air for 10 min/level, which is effectively the same as flying with normal manouverability, with only one flaw: you can't go straight up.

IMHO an item for flight on a cleric is a waste of money, as he already has numerous options for flight. Actually, a cleric with animal devotion can get flight quicker and more reliably than a wizard. For low level shenanigangs combine this with a reach weapon and fly 10 ft. above your (hopefully medium sized) enemy and you can swat away while they're can't do anything (there aren't many <CR5 monsters/npcs with flight). Even an archer will provoke an attack of opportunity for trying to fire while in melee combat.

But you're already using turn attempts to fuel metamagic, and if nightstick stacking is a no-go, burning those on flight is probably not the best decision as far as resource management goes. Items of flight are pretty cheap in any case.

[Eldariel]

Doesn't that defeat the point? :smalltongue:

Touché :smalltongue:

[Kaeso]

This thread looks like a badly disguised "Clerics aren't really T1" trolling attempt.

To be fair, this doesn't have to be a trolling attempt. I think it's pretty clear that clerics are the weakest of all T1 classes, perhaps even weaker than a well built sorcerer (keep in mind that the tier system assumes medium optimization. IMHO the sorcerer is more useful/powerful/capable of breaking the game than a cleric under maximum optimization).

[AMFV]

To be fair, this doesn't have to be a trolling attempt. I think it's pretty clear that clerics are the weakest of all T1 classes, perhaps even weaker than a well built sorcerer (keep in mind that the tier system assumes medium optimization. IMHO the sorcerer is more useful/powerful/capable of breaking the game than a cleric under maximum optimization).

Not even close, a cleric has much better spell list than a druid, much better, and they have domains so they have much greater versatility, a cleric with anyspell can beat out a druid's spell list pretty handily every time. They have access to many more significant options than druids do.

It's generally accepted that Druids are the weakest tier 1 class since their spell list is worse. Sorcerers may be able to beat a cleric at one or two things (direct damage), although clerics are actually better at metamagic games than a sorcerer is, and maybe can even beat them at certain reducing tricks. A Dweomerkeeper Cleric with DMM Quicken can quicken spells using turn attempts for a very small cost and can do some pretty significant damage this way.

[Pluto!]

I can agree with the OP to the extent that the usual "Clerics are Awesome because DMM: Persist + Divine Power" schpiel is pretty unconvincing. That's basically saying that spending 3 feats and a bunch of GP to mirror the Warrior's HP and BA makes an awesome character. And that would make the Samurai bananas.

It's the other stuff that people don't talk so loudly about that makes the Cleric absurd. Because seriously, Clerics are awesome.

Writing a whole handbook in response here is kind of beyond what I'm willing to do, but maybe an outline on why they're so sweet:



The usual: Miracle, Gate, Consumptive Field, Initiate of Mystra, DMM in all its abusable free metamagic glory, etc. You know this stuff and it's boring. It's still really really strong, but boring.


Basic stuff:

+/- Numbers: The Cleric has a million spells that add a bajillionty to his or his allies attacks/saves/AC or that subtract a bunch from his enemies' rolls. These are the usual Recitation, Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar, Divine Power, Righteous Wrath, Wave of Grief and so forth. These are talked to death, but I'm mentioning them because they're there and maybe somebody missed them.

Buffing/support: Again, stuff you probably know. The +numbers stuff, utility effects like flight, additional weapons, burrow speeds, concealment, rerolls, immunities to just about every effect and energy type there is. Probably unsurprisingly, making the party good at stuff and really hard to kill are both fairly useful things to do.

Save-or-suck: The Cleric's list has far fewer multi-target effects than the Wizard and the ones that do exist tend to be less than stellar, usually a -3 penalty to something or hitting a common resistance. But there are some impactful ones like Ice Slick, Nauseating Breath, Mass Curse of Ill Fortune and Greater Command. The Cleric's single-target effects tend to be more devastating, but by their nature aren't as efficient. This might count as a strike against the Cleric, but remember that there are only a handful of Tier 3 or higher classes that can play this game at all.

Clerics even get a couple reasonable blasting effects through spells like Radiant Assault, Cometfall and Summon Monster for Energons.


Oppressive effects that just aren't fair:

Silence: A level 2 spell that's often just better than AMF since you can cast it on your fighter buddy, have him voluntarily fail the save, and then just run around with a radius effect where spellcasting just doesn't work, but his magic gear does. Dampen Magic works in a similar vein, but as an actual AMF castable several levels early.

Dispel Magic: Yeah, every single caster who ever casted can cast this, but Clerics have the domains, turn undead, battlemagic perception and ridiculous abundance of CL-boosting effects to cast it best. Immediate Action counterspelling with [Level+12] bonuses can just break caster duels.

BC: Doomtide means that the Cleric and one of his buddies are the only guys on the battlefield who get to see (which I hear is occasionally useful). Wall of X spells work just as well for the Cleric as other casters, and there are a few unique entries on the Cleric's list like selective aligned walls that can keep enemies out without impeding the PCs.

The notorious Holy Word cycle. You know how these work - caster level directly equates into nasty effects with no save once CL gets high enough, so things get unfair when the Cleric starts dipping into its various degenerate CL boosts (which the Cleric has an abundance of, what with its Consumptive Fields, Divine Spell Power and Divine casting for Beads of Karma).

Save-or-Die: The Cleric doesn't have great ways to press a tactical win with incremental tactical advantage effects like Stinking Cloud or Glitterdust, but it has a ton of ways to keep its opponents one roll away from just dying. Just hitting a bad save with Plane Shift, Slay Living, Hold Person or Shivering Touch (I lied about the Save-or on that one) will either banish or outright kill enemies without having to deal with those parts where the party whittles through a monster's HP or evades its powers. They're huge crapshoots and they tend to do absolutely nothing if they don't outright kill something, but these are the kind of unfair and uninteractive effects that most T3 and lower classes just don't have.


Toolbox effects:

Clerics are big on minions. Summon Monster spells have modes other than "attack" and "flank" and there are a ton of SLAs and special abilities that can be dug up to resolve most problems a party might face, including filling in for some of the weak spots in the Cleric's own spell list, like illusions or low-level multi-target debuffing. Plus the Cleric gets more summoning options than other casters through the unique combination of SM, Summon Desert Ally, Conjure Ice beast and Summon Undead (the SM list is usually the best, but CIB can pack a punch and Summon Undead is a notoriusly easy way of downing, say, the Tarrasque).

Calling effects: Except a couple domains and Malconvokers, Clerics don't get Planar Binding, which is kind of awkward - the Planar Ally and Call X lines are strong, but their effects are outside the player's hands. Still, a 6 HD outsider that a Cleric can call at level 7 is probably more powerful than the party ranger, and an 18 HD Outsider called at level 15 is definitely more powerful than the party fighter. As a rule of thumb, any ability that's limited only by the number of monster manuals available is a broken ability, even if it means a character needs to found an orphanage to make it happen.

Haunt Shift and Animate Dead turn the world into a toolbox where any creature's basic combat stats or movement modes, and any object's size and traits can be taken, animated and put to whatever use the Cleric wants. Maybe that means fighting on the Cleric's side. Maybe it means animating an airship. Maybe it means cleaning up the party's Magnificent Mansion. There are a ton of options here.

Substitute Domain is often overlooked, but essentially gives a Cleric access to all the domain spells his deity grants. Though it varies from deity to deity, that tends to mean a lot of options that are either unique or drawn from other powerful class lists.

Boring utility effects: Nobody cares about Tongues, Water Breathing, Remove Disease or that kind of spell 97% of the time. They're usually that worthless, useless page filler you complain about the book being bloated with that have no bearing on your game. But then you find out that you need to make friends with aquatic syphilitic fishpeople, and the worthless, useless page filler starts seeming like worthless, occasionally-useful page filler. Just about every one of these stupid trivial-looking spells trivializes an issue that a character who isn't a Cleric would need to stop and find a way to deal with.

And for characters where it comes up, spontaneously casting Sanctified or Corrupt spells is useful too. Some of those, like Whatsit's Finger darts, Celestial Aspect and Brilliant Emanation, are legitimately powerful effects.

... That went a bit further than I thought.

[Coidzor]

There's always Cleric -> Divine Oracle -> Malconvoker, I suppose for a more dedicated summoner cleric.

[NotScaryBats]

Re: Sorcerer, don't forget that a cleric can just daily change all of her spells for free, every single day. You don't need to hunt them down, buy them, scribe them, nothing. If you have to cure a lycanthrope, purify a well, revive a dead king, ask your deity for guidance, atone a fallen paladin, whatever you are literally just a day away from praying for the spells and getting them.

That is exactly what Tier 1 is: versatility.

Because the cleric can go from day 1 of "I'm the fighter, but better" to day 2 of "I'll stand around and heal all the wounded and ill villagers in this town" to day 3 of "I'll raise all the enemies we killed as undead" to day 4 of "I need to be a diplomat now" to day 5 of "interrogate this prisoner" and on and on without spending any gold or using anything but powers that regenerate daily, she is a Tier 1, incredibly versatile and powerful class.

[ArqArturo]

Re: Sorcerer, don't forget that a cleric can just daily change all of her spells for free, every single day. You don't need to hunt them down, buy them, scribe them, nothing. If you have to cure a lycanthrope, purify a well, revive a dead king, ask your deity for guidance, atone a fallen paladin, whatever you are literally just a day away from praying for the spells and getting them.

That is exactly what Tier 1 is: versatility.

Because the cleric can go from day 1 of "I'm the fighter, but better" to day 2 of "I'll stand around and heal all the wounded and ill villagers in this town" to day 3 of "I'll raise all the enemies we killed as undead" to day 4 of "I need to be a diplomat now" to day 5 of "interrogate this prisoner" and on and on without spending any gold or using anything but powers that regenerate daily, she is a Tier 1, incredibly versatile and powerful class.

With my illuminan cleric, I usually left a slot open, in case I needed a spell in the day.

[eggynack]

Not even close, a cleric has much better spell list than a druid, much better, and they have domains so they have much greater versatility, a cleric with anyspell can beat out a druid's spell list pretty handily every time. They have access to many more significant options than druids do.

I wouldn't really go anywhere near that far, especially before domains. What are you really missing out on from the druid list that you can't pick up pretty easily? There's a small list, but there also is not a long list, and I think that druids especially have an advantage when it comes to low level spells. I can't think of much that compares to an entangle or impeding stones.

[AMFV]

I wouldn't really go anywhere near that far, especially before domains. What are you really missing out on from the druid list that you can't pick up pretty easily? There's a small list, but there also is not a long list, and I think that druids especially have an advantage when it comes to low level spells. I can't think of much that compares to an entangle or impeding stones.

It depends on what type of thing you're wanting, there are some very good lists further up that several people have compiled. Also when it comes to general debuffing clerics almost always have the advantage, particularly when it comes to non-animal enemies, which are the more common, much of their spell list is anti-undead (much more common than animals), they have many good area buffs (something not many classes get). You can get Entangle at the same level as a Druid if you take the plant domain. So the thing is that if you take the domains away, their list isn't always that great, but it's generally better than the druid list, and including domains they can certainly equal the druid list in pretty nearly every respect.

Again what are you wanting a cleric that's optimized to do? If you let me know that I can tell you what type of spells would be good.

Edit:
Without Domains at 1st Level you get...

Obscuring Mist - while that is available to druids as well it's still a good option.
Command - A no HD cap action steal, that's pretty good for a first level spell
Entropic Shield - Amazing for reducing the risk from ranged attacks.
Sanctuary - A godsend for a caster, and something very few other classes can imitate.
Hide from Undead- Amazing utility, mindless undead are common at higher levels and this is pretty efficient at avoiding them.
Cause Fear - Good low level battlefield control, and since you don't have spells known once it gets to be higher level you can replace it.

The first level spells aren't that amazing, but good domain spells can fill that gap quite nicely, and the first three levels are the ones where clerics tend to have clear advantages over druids, particularly those who are built with wild shape in mind, heavier armor proficiencies, typically better stats, that helps them a lot.

Second Level
Desecrate: Absolutely amazing for minionmancy and creating undead, it lets you buff them easily without any increase to their hit dice.
Enthrall: Battlefield Control up to an hour... that's pretty amazing, although it doesn't allow certain actions it's still an amazing action.
Hold Person: Again good battlefield control.
Silence: An Anti-Magic debuff that allows the fighters to use their magic gear, at level 2.. this is amazing, as was already pointed out.
Sound Burst: Sonic Damage and a stun, sign me up!
Find Traps: In case you wanted to make the rogue feel weak.
Align Weapon: Convenient for DR.
Aid: Temp Hit Points are always nice.
Darkness: Convenient if you want to hide.
Darkbolt: Damage and stun for a round.
Divine Insight: Nice skill check bonuses.

This list is slightly better, and there's more BFC options, which are what I'm focusing on, although again domains just make everything juicier, anything that focuses on the cleric can't ignore them.

3rd Level:
Animate Dead: This with Desecrate is always an amazing trick
Dispel Magic: With the inquisition domain, accessible from an easy no-lose dip, and the fact that divine casters can buff CL much easier than any other, clerics can dispel like no other.
Bestow Curse: 50% chance of losing an action...
Blindness/Deafness: Permanent debuffs, amazing.
Contagion: lots of lovely stat drops, the only things that suck are the fixed DCs. One level earlier than a wizard as well
Invisibility Purge: I shouldn't have to tell you how good this is.
Meld With Stone: This is something wizards can't do... not till around level 8.
Wind Wall: As good for clerics as it is for Wizards.
Daylight: Can sub as a debuff and BFC for when you're fighting Orcs or Drow.


That's only three levels and it's pretty good already. The cleric handbook focuses more on the buffing than the battlefield control options and loses a few good spells, and my list is looking mostly a core and that, so there are likely a few good apples I've missed.

[eggynack]

It depends on what type of thing you're wanting, there are some very good lists further up that several people have compiled. Also when it comes to general debuffing clerics almost always have the advantage, particularly when it comes to non-animal enemies, which are the more common, much of their spell list is anti-undead (much more common than animals), they have many good area buffs (something not many classes get). You can get Entangle at the same level as a Druid if you take the plant domain. So the thing is that if you take the domains away, their list isn't always that great, but it's generally better than the druid list, and including domains they can certainly equal the druid list in pretty nearly every respect.
I don't think I've ever seen a cleric build that uses the plant domain, and druids have a pretty solid number of debuff effects that aren't limited to animals. I mean, the line between BFC and debuff is a thin one, and stuff like entangle, impeding stones, spore field, wall of smoke, kelpstrand, and blinding spittle definitely qualifies as a solid list. It just doesn't feel like you're missing all that much, especially not to the point of the cleric list being "much better". I mean, from that list that Pluto posted, druids can do pretty much everything short of minionmancy, and they even have a couple of options for that if you push things.


Again what are you wanting a cleric that's optimized to do? If you let me know that I can tell you what type of spells would be good.
I'm not really sure. Domains tend to complicate things, to the point where arguments often center around a Schrodinger's cleric, changing domains as the challenges do. What should a cleric be optimized to do?

Edit: Missed the new stuff. I'ma look at that nowabouts.

[AMFV]

I don't think I've ever seen a cleric build that uses the plant domain, and druids have a pretty solid number of debuff effects that aren't limited to animals. I mean, the line between BFC and debuff is a thin one, and stuff like entangle, impeding stones, spore field, wall of smoke, kelpstrand, and blinding spittle definitely qualifies as a solid list. It just doesn't feel like you're missing all that much, especially not to the point of the cleric list being "much better". I mean, from that list that Pluto posted, druids can do pretty much everything short of minionmancy, and they even have a couple of options for that if you push things.


I'm not really sure. Domains tend to complicate things, to the point where arguments often center around a Schrodinger's cleric, changing domains as the challenges do. What should a cleric be optimized to do?

Edit: Missed the new stuff. I'ma look at that nowabouts.

It depends you can certainly wrack up a lot of domains, and Anyspell gives you enough versatility to pull off alot of shenanigans, domain staffs can give you the rest. Also the Cleric Handbook isn't really focused on anything but buffing so it takes some research to create a non-buffing cleric.

[eggynack]

That's certainly an interesting list, and there's some utility there that I don't think druids get. I don't think your claim of superiority over the first three levels is accurate, owing to the power inherent in an animal companion.

[AMFV]

That's certainly an interesting list, and there's some utility there that I don't think druids get. I don't think your claim of superiority over the first three levels is accurate, owing to the power inherent in an animal companion.

Maybe I would say that the animal companion is not that impressive at that point, and heavy armor is pretty convenient, you could definitely argue either way, in any case that's where the scales tip most in the favor of druids. As we get higher and higher level spells, and potentially Anyspell, it tips the other way. Also there are many good cleric prestige classes that a cleric loses nothing to get into, whereas the druid is stuck and that hurts after a while.

Also druids can't replicate DMM, which is a huge boost to casting, again particularly when combined with quicken, a Dweomerkeeper with DMM Quicken, can Quicken dozens of spells relatively cheaply per round, that's a feat that's very difficult for a druid to replicate.

[eggynack]

Maybe I would say that the animal companion is not that impressive at that point, and heavy armor is pretty convenient, you could definitely argue either way, in any case that's where the scales tip most in the favor of druids. As we get higher and higher level spells, and potentially Anyspell, it tips the other way. Also there are many good cleric prestige classes that a cleric loses nothing to get into, whereas the druid is stuck and that hurts after a while.
A riding dog is pretty highly efficient, especially at levels one and three. They generally run more HP, and maybe even more AC, than most equivalently leveled melee fellow. The straight fighting ability isn't bad either, between the decent attack bonus and tripping. Level four sees an obvious resurgence in power at level four, when fleshrakers happen, and that's where their power plateaus right before wild shape. As for spells, I think druids see a serious dip in quality right after fifth level spells. I mean, you get control winds, call avalanche, blizzard, and a couple of the better SoD's, and the next level isn't much improvement.


Also druids can't replicate DMM, which is a huge boost to casting, again particularly when combined with quicken, a Dweomerkeeper with DMM Quicken, can Quicken dozens of spells relatively cheaply per round, that's a feat that's very difficult for a druid to replicate.
Yeah, those are definite problems. There's very little in the way of metamagic tricks for druids to pull off, and they only get like three prestige classes. Granted, one of them breaks the game in ways that exceed most things in existence, but that's probably worse than if the class just broke the game a little bit. I would generally conclude that clerics have a better time of things at higher levels, while druids have a better time at low levels. It's a tricky comparison to make in general though, I think.

[AMFV]

A riding dog is pretty highly efficient, especially at levels one and three. They generally run more HP, and maybe even more AC, than most equivalently leveled melee fellow. The straight fighting ability isn't bad either, between the decent attack bonus and tripping. Level four sees an obvious resurgence in power at level four, when fleshrakers happen, and that's where their power plateaus right before wild shape. As for spells, I think druids see a serious dip in quality right after fifth level spells. I mean, you get control winds, call avalanche, blizzard, and a couple of the better SoD's, and the next level isn't much improvement.


Yeah, those are definite problems. There's very little in the way of metamagic tricks for druids to pull off, and they only get like three prestige classes. Granted, one of them breaks the game in ways that exceed most things in existence, but that's probably worse than if the class just broke the game a little bit. I would generally conclude that clerics have a better time of things at higher levels, while druids have a better time at low levels. It's a tricky comparison to make in general though, I think.

True and how much the disparity is is very domain dependent, low level clerics with good domain choices and ACFs can be damn good at low levels, and they get better with age, but some choices take longer to build to maturity, it's kind of complex. Really domains will make or break your cleric, that's why it's an important choice to make. They should correspond to your overall build plan, a BFC cleric will want domains that support that, a diviner cleric will be cloistered and not have to worry about it, etc. etc.

[Tysis]

Don't forget a cleric can chaos shuffle. A cleric can switch from DMM to crafting contingent spells and breaking wbl to summoning to leadership abuse to any other type of feat selection just by casting some spells.

Not to mention they can swap their domains around from early levels.

[Spuddles]

Of all the spells at all the levels? Seems tedious, why can't you just drink the cool-aid and be happy with it? This thread looks like a badly disguised "Clerics aren't really T1" trolling attempt.

Do you have anything to add, or...?


Well I have a build for you, as well as some of the spells that make them T1. They are T1 because their spells and class abilities allow them to accomplish any goal another class could, though it may be through different means. You can run melee damage with a lot of them. You can actually disarm traps and search for them as a rogue if you take the kobold domain. You can do it with spells if you don't, you just have to be creative. You can heal once combat is over, remove permanant effects the party will really want removed, and you have some very powerful control / offensive spells. Even at low levels you have good spells for just about every situation, and you can change them daily.

Spells that (I think) make clerics T1 based on how the tier system is defined:

Shatter: Breaks locks, sunders armor, or just breaks the door you want through.

Summon monster: This allows you to send in a copy of a creature to "check for traps", fight in combat, and in some cases help with RP situations.

Ice slick: cleric's version of grease from a supplementals book. Knock enemies prone if they fail, if they don't have balance as a skill they are flat footed even if they make the save.

Miracle:Just read the entry. You can save Pompeii with it.

Vigor: You can heal efficiently with a cheap wand of this. (out of combat of course.)

Close wounds: Keep someone up and fighting, only in combat healing I recommend.

Venom bolt: Line of acid, reflex or damage, fortitude or paralyzed.

Shivering touch: 3d6 dexterity damage. Melee touch no save. Gross with reach metamagic. (I am given to understand a lot of DM's do not allow this spell.)

Lesser Holy transformation: You can str/ and con no big deal... oh, and a fly speed of 60 with good manuverability. MANY problems can be countered by simply being able to fly. Duration not long enough for you? Persist it.


I think if you're tired of trying to melee as hard as the barbarian (which you have to try really hard to do if he's optimized too) you might like this build. Read all the feats carefully as well as the spell anyspell. It does work, if a little cheesed. You will feel like you are useful at ALL times, especially in combat. This is also a really cool build if your DM sends a lot of SLA users and spellcasters at you, and still great if it's only occasional.

My DM / when I DM we play RAW (with a gentleman's agreement that more than one night stick isn't what we want in our game.) with an 80 point buy from 0. Use whatever stats you get and put them in with wisdom top priority, charisma second, then con third. This build is Cleric 3 / Church Inquisitor 5. It does use flaws and one night stick, but you really don't have to if you don't want to quicken a lot of spells.

Human
Str 10, Dex 10, con 14, int 10, wis 20, cha, 18

Domains: Spell, undeath, and then inquisitor from church inquisitor class.

Feats:
lvl1 Quicken Spell
human Divine metamagic Quicken
undeath domain extra turning
flaw 1 inattentive
flaw 2 shaky
flaw feat 1 extra turning
flaw feat 2 extra turning
lvl 3 divine defiance
lvl 6 arcane mastery

Items: One night stick for 4 T/U attempts, and 1 reliquary holy symbol for 2 more T/U attempts. This gives you a total of 21 T/U attempts.

This build allows you to take arcane mastery ONLY if you have the spell domain. The spell domain grants you access to the spell anyspell. Any spell does not replicate an arcane spell, it allows you to prepare an arcane spell, then cast it as an arcane spell.

In short, you can spend 5 T/U attempts to quicken a spell, allowing you to summon a monster / buff, or summon a monster / cast a control spell, ETC all in the same turn. You can also, without readying an action at all, counter any spell and / or spell like ability by spending 1 T/U attempt. You must always keep dispel magic prepared to do this, meaning don't cast it. (much like a reserve feat.)

Because you are using dispel magic as a counter you must make a dispel check to actually counter it. You only have to beat 11 + their caster level. You get to add your caster level (8), inquisition domain power (4) to this, as well as take 10 on the check(arcane mastery). This gives you a "roll" of 24, making the dc of any caster lvl 13 and lower at lvl 8.

You can cast hold person, then shatter another guy's armor on your turn. Then that same round, if a baddy casts a spell, you can just counter it unless you're facing down a lvl 14 caster or better.(Keep in mind if you DO counter a spell this way, you can not quicken a spell on your next turn.) If you want to, you can also prepare dispel magic more than once, and use it in some cases to just remove powerful buffs from baddies with little / no chance of failure. You're also completely immune to compulsion and charm effects. Fighter wannabe's can't do that.


I forgot about lesser holy transformation. That's an insanely good spell. Doesnt work for non-good clerics, but archon subtype is awesome.

Nice builds, thank you. I didnt know there was so much non-nightstick DMM optimization.


Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284509)'s a huge list of great cleric spells: I reference it all the time when I'm looking for ideas as to how to prepare my spell selection.

Though you know, someone really should write an "Offensive Cleric Guide" for players who want to play a cleric who uses BC and save-or-lose spells, complete with explanations as to why each spell is good and spell ratings. Hmm...



You don't need nightsticks to stack either.

Cloistered Cleric (Rebuke Dragons ACF) 7/Sacred Exorcist 1/Dread Necromancer 1

1 - Extend Spell
H - Persistent Spell
F - Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
F - Extra Turning
3 - Extra Turning
6 - Extra Turning
9 - Extra Turning

Assuming 10 charisma and no items at all, here's what your turn attempt progression looks like:

1 - 7 attempts (enough for 1 spell, and you've already got all of your materials online!)
3 - 11 attempts (still 1 spell)
6 - 15 attempts (2 spells)
8 - 30 attempts (4 spells)
9 - 57 attempts (8 spells)

Investing in Charisma and picking up a nightstick and a reliquary holy symbol pushes these numbers even higher, and that's without the planning or undeath domains. And if you keep taking Extra Turning you'll get even more, but honestly 8 persistent spells per day is all a sane build will ever need: Any more and you're heading into TO territory. If you want to go absolutely nuts with turn attempt optimization, pick up Planning and Undeath and get 18 CHA (putting the extra feats this frees up into more extra turning), and your turn attempt progression looks like this:

1 - 19 attempts (2 spells)
3 - 23 attempts (3 spells)
6 - 27 attempts (3 spells)
8 - 54 attempts (7 spells)
9 - 93 attempts (13 spells)

All that nightstick stacking does for you is let you trade investment in feats with investment in gold: Which is a good deal, but unless you're doing a crazy TO build that persists a bajillion spells every day, it's just not necessary. Note also that DMM: Quicken costs only 5 attempts per use (and doesn't require Extend Spell), and is thus easier to optimize than Persist.

Ah, very nice.


Not even close, a cleric has much better spell list than a druid, much better, and they have domains so they have much greater versatility, a cleric with anyspell can beat out a druid's spell list pretty handily every time. They have access to many more significant options than druids do.

It's generally accepted that Druids are the weakest tier 1 class since their spell list is worse. Sorcerers may be able to beat a cleric at one or two things (direct damage), although clerics are actually better at metamagic games than a sorcerer is, and maybe can even beat them at certain reducing tricks. A Dweomerkeeper Cleric with DMM Quicken can quicken spells using turn attempts for a very small cost and can do some pretty significant damage this way.

As eldarial noted, not much beats a Dweormerkeeper Holy Word build. Unless it's good, I guess.

But I would like to see what on the cleric spell list is so great. You can't just say "cleric has a much better list than a druid" and not tell me what spells they have that are so great! That's the whole point of this thread!


I can agree with the OP to the extent that the usual "Clerics are Awesome because DMM: Persist + Divine Power" schpiel is pretty unconvincing. That's basically saying that spending 3 feats and a bunch of GP to mirror the Warrior's HP and BA makes an awesome character. And that would make the Samurai bananas.

It's the other stuff that people don't talk so loudly about that makes the Cleric absurd. Because seriously, Clerics are awesome.

Writing a whole handbook in response here is kind of beyond what I'm willing to do, but maybe an outline on why they're so sweet:



The usual: Miracle, Gate, Consumptive Field, Initiate of Mystra, DMM in all its abusable free metamagic glory, etc. You know this stuff and it's boring. It's still really really strong, but boring.


Basic stuff:

+/- Numbers: The Cleric has a million spells that add a bajillionty to his or his allies attacks/saves/AC or that subtract a bunch from his enemies' rolls. These are the usual Recitation, Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar, Divine Power, Righteous Wrath, Wave of Grief and so forth. These are talked to death, but I'm mentioning them because they're there and maybe somebody missed them.

Buffing/support: Again, stuff you probably know. The +numbers stuff, utility effects like flight, additional weapons, burrow speeds, concealment, rerolls, immunities to just about every effect and energy type there is. Probably unsurprisingly, making the party good at stuff and really hard to kill are both fairly useful things to do.

Save-or-suck: The Cleric's list has far fewer multi-target effects than the Wizard and the ones that do exist tend to be less than stellar, usually a -3 penalty to something or hitting a common resistance. But there are some impactful ones like Ice Slick, Nauseating Breath, Mass Curse of Ill Fortune and Greater Command. The Cleric's single-target effects tend to be more devastating, but by their nature aren't as efficient. This might count as a strike against the Cleric, but remember that there are only a handful of Tier 3 or higher classes that can play this game at all.

Clerics even get a couple reasonable blasting effects through spells like Radiant Assault, Cometfall and Summon Monster for Energons.


Oppressive effects that just aren't fair:

Silence: A level 2 spell that's often just better than AMF since you can cast it on your fighter buddy, have him voluntarily fail the save, and then just run around with a radius effect where spellcasting just doesn't work, but his magic gear does. Dampen Magic works in a similar vein, but as an actual AMF castable several levels early.

Dispel Magic: Yeah, every single caster who ever casted can cast this, but Clerics have the domains, turn undead, battlemagic perception and ridiculous abundance of CL-boosting effects to cast it best. Immediate Action counterspelling with [Level+12] bonuses can just break caster duels.

BC: Doomtide means that the Cleric and one of his buddies are the only guys on the battlefield who get to see (which I hear is occasionally useful). Wall of X spells work just as well for the Cleric as other casters, and there are a few unique entries on the Cleric's list like selective aligned walls that can keep enemies out without impeding the PCs.

The notorious Holy Word cycle. You know how these work - caster level directly equates into nasty effects with no save once CL gets high enough, so things get unfair when the Cleric starts dipping into its various degenerate CL boosts (which the Cleric has an abundance of, what with its Consumptive Fields, Divine Spell Power and Divine casting for Beads of Karma).

Save-or-Die: The Cleric doesn't have great ways to press a tactical win with incremental tactical advantage effects like Stinking Cloud or Glitterdust, but it has a ton of ways to keep its opponents one roll away from just dying. Just hitting a bad save with Plane Shift, Slay Living, Hold Person or Shivering Touch (I lied about the Save-or on that one) will either banish or outright kill enemies without having to deal with those parts where the party whittles through a monster's HP or evades its powers. They're huge crapshoots and they tend to do absolutely nothing if they don't outright kill something, but these are the kind of unfair and uninteractive effects that most T3 and lower classes just don't have.


Toolbox effects:

Clerics are big on minions. Summon Monster spells have modes other than "attack" and "flank" and there are a ton of SLAs and special abilities that can be dug up to resolve most problems a party might face, including filling in for some of the weak spots in the Cleric's own spell list, like illusions or low-level multi-target debuffing. Plus the Cleric gets more summoning options than other casters through the unique combination of SM, Summon Desert Ally, Conjure Ice beast and Summon Undead (the SM list is usually the best, but CIB can pack a punch and Summon Undead is a notoriusly easy way of downing, say, the Tarrasque).

Calling effects: Except a couple domains and Malconvokers, Clerics don't get Planar Binding, which is kind of awkward - the Planar Ally and Call X lines are strong, but their effects are outside the player's hands. Still, a 6 HD outsider that a Cleric can call at level 7 is probably more powerful than the party ranger, and an 18 HD Outsider called at level 15 is definitely more powerful than the party fighter. As a rule of thumb, any ability that's limited only by the number of monster manuals available is a broken ability, even if it means a character needs to found an orphanage to make it happen.

Haunt Shift and Animate Dead turn the world into a toolbox where any creature's basic combat stats or movement modes, and any object's size and traits can be taken, animated and put to whatever use the Cleric wants. Maybe that means fighting on the Cleric's side. Maybe it means animating an airship. Maybe it means cleaning up the party's Magnificent Mansion. There are a ton of options here.

Substitute Domain is often overlooked, but essentially gives a Cleric access to all the domain spells his deity grants. Though it varies from deity to deity, that tends to mean a lot of options that are either unique or drawn from other powerful class lists.

Boring utility effects: Nobody cares about Tongues, Water Breathing, Remove Disease or that kind of spell 97% of the time. They're usually that worthless, useless page filler you complain about the book being bloated with that have no bearing on your game. But then you find out that you need to make friends with aquatic syphilitic fishpeople, and the worthless, useless page filler starts seeming like worthless, occasionally-useful page filler. Just about every one of these stupid trivial-looking spells trivializes an issue that a character who isn't a Cleric would need to stop and find a way to deal with.

And for characters where it comes up, spontaneously casting Sanctified or Corrupt spells is useful too. Some of those, like Whatsit's Finger darts, Celestial Aspect and Brilliant Emanation, are legitimately powerful effects.

... That went a bit further than I thought.

This is super helpful stuff. Haunt Shift is the sort of game breaking stuff I'm looking for. AFAIK, that level of game breakery doesnt show up on a druid list. Not until you're shapechanging into a Zodar for free wishes.


There's always Cleric -> Divine Oracle -> Malconvoker, I suppose for a more dedicated summoner cleric.

I'm torn about Malconvoker. On the one hand, planar binding is awesome and powerful, on the other hand, losing two caster levels isn't worth it because you could have been a wizard.


Re: Sorcerer, don't forget that a cleric can just daily change all of her spells for free, every single day. You don't need to hunt them down, buy them, scribe them, nothing. If you have to cure a lycanthrope, purify a well, revive a dead king, ask your deity for guidance, atone a fallen paladin, whatever you are literally just a day away from praying for the spells and getting them.

That is exactly what Tier 1 is: versatility.

Because the cleric can go from day 1 of "I'm the fighter, but better" to day 2 of "I'll stand around and heal all the wounded and ill villagers in this town" to day 3 of "I'll raise all the enemies we killed as undead" to day 4 of "I need to be a diplomat now" to day 5 of "interrogate this prisoner" and on and on without spending any gold or using anything but powers that regenerate daily, she is a Tier 1, incredibly versatile and powerful class.

Sorcerers can get like 100 spells known by level 10, and they're better spells known than a cleric. So you can do pretty much all those things on day 1.

For days 4 & 5, what spells would you use? I know for a sorcerer I'd be using Voice of the Dragon. I suppose Guidance of the Avatar all the skill checks?


It depends on what type of thing you're wanting, there are some very good lists further up that several people have compiled. Also when it comes to general debuffing clerics almost always have the advantage, particularly when it comes to non-animal enemies, which are the more common, much of their spell list is anti-undead (much more common than animals), they have many good area buffs (something not many classes get). You can get Entangle at the same level as a Druid if you take the plant domain. So the thing is that if you take the domains away, their list isn't always that great, but it's generally better than the druid list, and including domains they can certainly equal the druid list in pretty nearly every respect.

Again what are you wanting a cleric that's optimized to do? If you let me know that I can tell you what type of spells would be good.

Edit:
Without Domains at 1st Level you get...

Obscuring Mist - while that is available to druids as well it's still a good option.
Command - A no HD cap action steal, that's pretty good for a first level spell
Entropic Shield - Amazing for reducing the risk from ranged attacks.
Sanctuary - A godsend for a caster, and something very few other classes can imitate.
Hide from Undead- Amazing utility, mindless undead are common at higher levels and this is pretty efficient at avoiding them.
Cause Fear - Good low level battlefield control, and since you don't have spells known once it gets to be higher level you can replace it.

The first level spells aren't that amazing, but good domain spells can fill that gap quite nicely, and the first three levels are the ones where clerics tend to have clear advantages over druids, particularly those who are built with wild shape in mind, heavier armor proficiencies, typically better stats, that helps them a lot.

Second Level
Desecrate: Absolutely amazing for minionmancy and creating undead, it lets you buff them easily without any increase to their hit dice.
Enthrall: Battlefield Control up to an hour... that's pretty amazing, although it doesn't allow certain actions it's still an amazing action.
Hold Person: Again good battlefield control.
Silence: An Anti-Magic debuff that allows the fighters to use their magic gear, at level 2.. this is amazing, as was already pointed out.
Sound Burst: Sonic Damage and a stun, sign me up!
Find Traps: In case you wanted to make the rogue feel weak.
Align Weapon: Convenient for DR.
Aid: Temp Hit Points are always nice.
Darkness: Convenient if you want to hide.
Darkbolt: Damage and stun for a round.
Divine Insight: Nice skill check bonuses.

This list is slightly better, and there's more BFC options, which are what I'm focusing on, although again domains just make everything juicier, anything that focuses on the cleric can't ignore them.

3rd Level:
Animate Dead: This with Desecrate is always an amazing trick
Dispel Magic: With the inquisition domain, accessible from an easy no-lose dip, and the fact that divine casters can buff CL much easier than any other, clerics can dispel like no other.
Bestow Curse: 50% chance of losing an action...
Blindness/Deafness: Permanent debuffs, amazing.
Contagion: lots of lovely stat drops, the only things that suck are the fixed DCs. One level earlier than a wizard as well
Invisibility Purge: I shouldn't have to tell you how good this is.
Meld With Stone: This is something wizards can't do... not till around level 8.
Wind Wall: As good for clerics as it is for Wizards.
Daylight: Can sub as a debuff and BFC for when you're fighting Orcs or Drow.


That's only three levels and it's pretty good already. The cleric handbook focuses more on the buffing than the battlefield control options and loses a few good spells, and my list is looking mostly a core and that, so there are likely a few good apples I've missed.

This is absolutely amazing, thanks for the list. However, I'm not seeing much here that doesn't have a druidic analogue, other than animate dead of course, but as long as we're paying gp for minions, druid could just buy animals. Sanctuary is very handy for a caster, true that, and Find Traps works well in conjunction with Guidance of the Avatar, but given that a search check is required for every 5 ft square of a dungeon, plus any interesting objects, why the would you want to waste spell slots emulating a rogue?


Maybe I would say that the animal companion is not that impressive at that point, and heavy armor is pretty convenient, you could definitely argue either way, in any case that's where the scales tip most in the favor of druids. As we get higher and higher level spells, and potentially Anyspell, it tips the other way. Also there are many good cleric prestige classes that a cleric loses nothing to get into, whereas the druid is stuck and that hurts after a while.

Also druids can't replicate DMM, which is a huge boost to casting, again particularly when combined with quicken, a Dweomerkeeper with DMM Quicken, can Quicken dozens of spells relatively cheaply per round, that's a feat that's very difficult for a druid to replicate.

There's actually a druid ACF that gives them turn undead at 13th level, and Keld has a bone talisman build that gets the druid as many turning attempts as he can afford.


Don't forget a cleric can chaos shuffle. A cleric can switch from DMM to crafting contingent spells and breaking wbl to summoning to leadership abuse to any other type of feat selection just by casting some spells.

Not to mention they can swap their domains around from early levels.

chaos shuffle, that's a good one!

[Know(Nothing)]

I'm surprised we've gone this far without a mention of Pronouncement of Fate. It's not so much a Save-or-Suck as much as a Save-and-you'll-probably-still-suck.

[Coidzor]

IIRC, one advantage that undead minions have over animals is the action economy of directing them versus directing animals using handle animal.

[SiuiS]

Ehhh, if I was going to fret over cleric domains, I'd just play the class that got those spells natively. It's kind of telling how awful the cleric list is when domain optimization is a key part of a build. Though DMM persist tends to just be that good. Funny how all cookie-cutter clerics seem to be wannabe liches. Undeath & planning? I know what you're up to.

Quote the opposite, isn't it? The cleric is still powerful enough to be tier one, but is harder to outright break and has limited 'trees' to shape their development. That's like, the number one design choice to fix wizard if you think their power is excessive.

The cleric list ostensibly forces you to pick a specialization like dread necro, warmage, beguiler, etc. Instead of being a batman wizard.




Ostensibly.

[eggynack]

This is super helpful stuff. Haunt Shift is the sort of game breaking stuff I'm looking for. AFAIK, that level of game breakery doesnt show up on a druid list. Not until you're shapechanging into a Zodar for free wishes.
Does haunt shift really do all that much? I'm pretty interested, cause someone mentioned using that in a combo with ghost companion, and if turning yourself or an animal companion into a ghostly presence is game breaking, then that could be interesting.


I'm torn about Malconvoker. On the one hand, planar binding is awesome and powerful, on the other hand, losing two caster levels isn't worth it because you could have been a wizard.
Two?


There's actually a druid ACF that gives them turn undead at 13th level, and Keld has a bone talisman build that gets the druid as many turning attempts as he can afford.
I can't see one on my list. Is it from a Dragon magazine or something?

[Spuddles]

Not even close, a cleric has much better spell list than a druid, much better, and they have domains so they have much greater versatility, a cleric with anyspell can beat out a druid's spell list pretty handily every time. They have access to many more significant options than druids do.

It's generally accepted that Druids are the weakest tier 1 class since their spell list is worse. Sorcerers may be able to beat a cleric at one or two things (direct damage), although clerics are actually better at metamagic games than a sorcerer is, and maybe can even beat them at certain reducing tricks. A Dweomerkeeper Cleric with DMM Quicken can quicken spells using turn attempts for a very small cost and can do some pretty significant damage this way.


Does haunt shift really do all that much? I'm pretty interested, cause someone mentioned using that in a combo with ghost companion, and if turning yourself or an animal companion into a ghostly presence is game breaking, then that could be interesting.


Two?


I can't see one on my list. Is it from a Dragon magazine or something?

Malconvoker's just one lost CL? That's not nearly as bad as I thought. 1 is pretty manageable. Still not sure if it's worth it, though.

Haunt Shift opens up all sorts of crazy stuff, from having a flying ship to a haunted item that casts a buttload of spells per turn via spellstitching or an undead with innate casting. Like sticking 100 necropolitan wizards in a ring. You can now take all those followers you got via leadership mechanic with you everywhere. Stuff like that. It's an insane mechanic.

And yeah, it's a dr mag variant. Cant remember what it's called. It trades 2 skill points for more spontaneous casting options and turn undead at 13th, I believe.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248720

[Emperor Tippy]

The big thing with a Cleric is that at lower levels, where melee tends to be the better choice, a Cleric can keep up quite well while at later levels the Cleric transitions into being a full on caster with the second best general purpose spell list in the game.

A Cleric 19/ Ardent 1 with the Magic Mantle can use Miracle to emulate Psychic Reformation and now he can totally respec all of his feats, skill points, and spells on a daily basis. It's not as good as what a Wizard can pull off but what it does mean is that on any day when the Cleric has at least a general idea what he is going to be facing he can be built specifically for dealing with those challenges.

The Cleric list (even without domains) can do most everything. Minion master, battlefield control, blasting, healing, party and self buffs, save or die/loose/suck, debuffs, and utility are all decently well covered by the Cleric list.

This gets back to the hard part about talking about Tier 1 (and even to a lesser extent, Tier 2) classes. The defining trait of Tier 1 is sheer versatility. Your Cleric can go from a guy who buffs himself up to be Super Fighter to a guy who is dropping 300 HP damage and a negative level on 20 characters each round as a standard action on a days notice.

[NotScaryBats]

"Sorcerers can get like 100 spells known by level 10, and they're better spells known than a cleric. So you can do pretty much all those things on day 1.

For days 4 & 5, what spells would you use? I know for a sorcerer I'd be using Voice of the Dragon. I suppose Guidance of the Avatar all the skill checks?"

Is the counter argument to that, I guess, but I don't see how a sorcerer can buff himself and allies as well as a cleric or heal wounded and ill people. Clerics can double their undead control pool by Commanding some and Controlling others.

As for diplomacy and interrogation, Zone of Truth is a level 2 spell, True Seeing a level early, Calm Emotions, Speak with Dead, and Guidance of the Avatar.

[Spuddles]

Are clerics a little light on skill buffing? Prayer helps for a short time, and there's always guidance of the avatar, but what else is there? Find Traps is pretty much useless unless you invest considerable resources into search. I suppose kobold domain works, but then you dont even need the spell and that's a domain eaten up. Even rogues have trouble finding traps, after all.

[Emperor Tippy]

Are clerics a little light on skill buffing? Prayer helps for a short time, and there's always guidance of the avatar, but what else is there? Find Traps is pretty much useless unless you invest considerable resources into search. I suppose kobold domain works, but then you dont even need the spell and that's a domain eaten up. Even rogues have trouble finding traps, after all.

Depends on the level.

Guidance of the Avatar + Surge of Fortune is a guaranteed 40 on any skill check. Throw in Moment of Prescience (Luck Domain 8) and at CL 20 you can guarantee a 60 on a skill check.

If you want skill boosts that are sustained over a period of time greater than rounds/level then the pickings get real sparse, although they are pretty sparse for most every class.

[Gwendol]

On the kind of critters summoned/controlled by clerics vs druids: animals are sucsceptible to Wild Empathy, while summoned monsters are typically less so, while undead are immune.

Last (?) time this analysis was carried out it was noted druids are typically better blasters and get more BFC, while clerics have more buffs, protections, and debuffs/single target spells. They are also more likely to force failed saves thanks to CL boosting.

Also, turn undead: as soon as you get DMM it is used for that, but earlier on undead can be a real pain to deal with and clerics have a lot of ways to deal with them. A party below level six will fare a lot better having a cleric on board than one that doesn't when facing undead.

[Nightraiderx]

I don't think it was mentioned but a lvl 1 Cleric* can grab turn/rebuke undead and incarnum/rebuke dragons for three separate turning pools and using the alts for the Sun and Necromancy Domains. Grabbing the magic domain through a prestige and going into Dweomerkeeper gives you the ability to Chaos schuffle at least twice a day.

I tend to use Clerics as beatsticks, but there is some control they have, you
just have to use the right metamagic. Fell frighten can make the Cleric's boom spells into Cleric mass debuff and damage. Fell frighten can turn mooks into undead followers to further uneven the fight. Clerics can also be good elemental blast/gish due to prestiege classes like Winterhaunt of Igoboru. A Cleric can also become a blaster with relative ease using Darkfire persisted/quickened to blast and stack fell frighten damage.

Born of three thunders is awesome and cleric can grab the immunity to stun through his spells so for no cost can throw and toss people around.

The cleric's ability to mitigate Metamagic through DMM allows for builds that would be more limited on a wizard relying on a few spells or incantatrix chese.

Summoner Metamagic that is also awesome:
Imbue Summons. Now your summons get some of your nice buffs.

[Urpriest]

Another take on the question:

Cleric's unique Tier 1 attributes (as opposed to non-unique ones like summoning/calling) are Divination and Immunities.

Clerics get some of the best Divination spells. In particular, they get the most spells that actually forecast the future. They get Augury, Commune, Divination, Discern Location, Find the Path, Scrying, Greater Scrying...plus a lot of non-core stuff and plenty of situational spells (which, being Tier 1, are usage-friendly).

They also get some of the best immunity-granting buffs. Remember, a big part of Tier 1 is the ability to solve an encounter with just one ability. Things like Death Ward and Sheltered Vitality "solve" an encounter with Incorporeal Undead just as decisively as an AOE-SOD would, while Hell Hounds can be solved with any of the spells that grant Fire Resistance. Clerics get Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity and Spell Resistance, Energy Immunity...basically, take a look at the Cheater of Mystra's buff list.

These two strengths are especially powerful in combination. Divination lets you know what you're going to face, letting you choose the proper immunities for the fight. You don't have to worry about Death Ward and Sheltered Vitality being useless, because you used Divination and Scryed on your target and you know the area has lots of incorporeal undead.

[Gwendol]

Urpriest: Yes, that was the other aspect of cleric casting I was thinking of but forgot to actually write. Divinations come early as well, which is really cool.
Immunities are incredibly powerful against the right enemy, trivializing them in many cases, and they aren't easily countered.

[Vortenger]

I don't subscribe to nightsticks stacking, so yeah, they're kinda necessary, especially if you plan on derping around as a fighter pre-level 10.

Do you mind the Reliquary Holy Symbol? It grants up to 3 turns per day and is slotted, so you can pay a modest fee above the 1,500g value of the item and add it as a lesser enchant to all your other slots as well. Even if you don't spend the feat to get the third turn attempt from the symbol that's 2x 10(ish) body slots for 20 extra turn attempts per turning pool, no feats or nightsticks involved. 30 if you did spend the feat.

[Zweisteine]

The best (read: only) thing I've done with a cleric is had a living meatshield.

As a thrall for a level 20 psion I made, I had an 18th-level cleric. He took the Animal domain, and every day, he persistent shapeshifted himself into a Living Breastplate, which the psion would wear. From that comfortable position, he could heal the psion at all times. He would also persist a few other buffs, but, as I was not allowed to stack nightsticks, his other turn attempts were used to persist spells (tongues and girallon's blessing, I believe) that allowed him to cast spells while shapeshifted.

[blueteam5]

It depends on what type of thing you're wanting, there are some very good lists further up that several people have compiled. Also when it comes to general debuffing clerics almost always have the advantage, particularly when it comes to non-animal enemies, which are the more common, much of their spell list is anti-undead (much more common than animals), they have many good area buffs (something not many classes get). You can get Entangle at the same level as a Druid if you take the plant domain. So the thing is that if you take the domains away, their list isn't always that great, but it's generally better than the druid list, and including domains they can certainly equal the druid list in pretty nearly every respect.

Again what are you wanting a cleric that's optimized to do? If you let me know that I can tell you what type of spells would be good.

Edit:
Without Domains at 1st Level you get...

Obscuring Mist - while that is available to druids as well it's still a good option.
Command - A no HD cap action steal, that's pretty good for a first level spell
Entropic Shield - Amazing for reducing the risk from ranged attacks.
Sanctuary - A godsend for a caster, and something very few other classes can imitate.
Hide from Undead- Amazing utility, mindless undead are common at higher levels and this is pretty efficient at avoiding them.
Cause Fear - Good low level battlefield control, and since you don't have spells known once it gets to be higher level you can replace it.

The first level spells aren't that amazing, but good domain spells can fill that gap quite nicely, and the first three levels are the ones where clerics tend to have clear advantages over druids, particularly those who are built with wild shape in mind, heavier armor proficiencies, typically better stats, that helps them a lot.

Second Level
Desecrate: Absolutely amazing for minionmancy and creating undead, it lets you buff them easily without any increase to their hit dice.
Enthrall: Battlefield Control up to an hour... that's pretty amazing, although it doesn't allow certain actions it's still an amazing action.
Hold Person: Again good battlefield control.
Silence: An Anti-Magic debuff that allows the fighters to use their magic gear, at level 2.. this is amazing, as was already pointed out.
Sound Burst: Sonic Damage and a stun, sign me up!
Find Traps: In case you wanted to make the rogue feel weak.
Align Weapon: Convenient for DR.
Aid: Temp Hit Points are always nice.
Darkness: Convenient if you want to hide.
Darkbolt: Damage and stun for a round.
Divine Insight: Nice skill check bonuses.

This list is slightly better, and there's more BFC options, which are what I'm focusing on, although again domains just make everything juicier, anything that focuses on the cleric can't ignore them.

3rd Level:
Animate Dead: This with Desecrate is always an amazing trick
Dispel Magic: With the inquisition domain, accessible from an easy no-lose dip, and the fact that divine casters can buff CL much easier than any other, clerics can dispel like no other.
Bestow Curse: 50% chance of losing an action...
Blindness/Deafness: Permanent debuffs, amazing.
Contagion: lots of lovely stat drops, the only things that suck are the fixed DCs. One level earlier than a wizard as well
Invisibility Purge: I shouldn't have to tell you how good this is.
Meld With Stone: This is something wizards can't do... not till around level 8.
Wind Wall: As good for clerics as it is for Wizards.
Daylight: Can sub as a debuff and BFC for when you're fighting Orcs or Drow.


That's only three levels and it's pretty good already. The cleric handbook focuses more on the buffing than the battlefield control options and loses a few good spells, and my list is looking mostly a core and that, so there are likely a few good apples I've missed.

I'm very curious as to what higher level spells you would recommend as these do show a lot of versatility a cleric has. I'm looking at the pros and cons of Druid and Cleric and they both have definite ups and downs when it comes to the types of spells they have and other prestige class options. I'm looking for a list of what the better higher level spells would be based on the same criteria your list is based on. The handbooks don't go into too much detail of very many spells so it leaves me with no direction to really look to.

[Gullintanni]

LN Caster Cleric of Wee Jas

Cloistered Cleric 18/Church Inquisitor 1/Divine Oracle 1
Domains - Magic, Planning, Knowledge, Inquisition, Oracle
ACF - Spontaneous Domain Casting (Magic Domain)
ACF - Divine Magician (Trade Knowledge Domain away for access to a selection of wizard Necromancy, Abjuration and Divination spells, grab some necromancy debuffs for fun and profit)
Rebuke/Command Undead

Useful Feats
Extend Spell - Bonus Feat
Divine Metamagic - Extend
Divine Defiance (FCII)
Fell Drain
Divine Metamagic - Fell Drain

Useful Items
Phylactery of Undead Turning
Lyre of the Restful Soul
Rod of Defiance
Scepter of the Netherworld


Using this core kit, your Cleric is a master necromancer, able to raise up armies of undead minions (as per usual), while throwing out some of the most powerful wizard debuffs around (waves of exhaustion, enervate).

Domain spontaneity allows you spontaneously convert spell slots into spells from the magic domain. The gem in this selection? Dispel Magic. Spontaneous Dispel Magic + Divine Defiance + Church Inquisitor means you can counterspell any magic as an immediate action with an untyped +4 to your dispel check, that allows you to exceed the usual caster level cap.

The magic domain also permits you to trivially activate wizard scrolls and automatically activate all wizard wands with no problem at all. Versatility!

With spontaneous Fell Drain, all your damage spells are draining levels from your enemies. Now, one of the most populous enemy groups in the game are undead. Your negative energy blasts will be useless! Fortunately for you, you rebuke/command undead as a level 43 cleric.

Since you're not persisting anything, your pool of rebuking and commanding will be relatively free for converting spontaneous dispel magics, fell drains and for actually dominating undead. You've got casting covered. With access to powerful divination magic, you'll always have a decent idea what you'll be up against, so you can prepare the appropriate alignment blasts (Holy Word, Blasphemy et. al.) as necessary.

But the best part? You're a team player. Your undead make valuable flankers for your allies. Your instant counterspelling shields brainless meat-sacks from untoward casters trying to charm and dominate them. If they succeed? Dispel magic is always at your fingertips. Your energy draining and debuffing will make your warriors feel as though they're cutting down weary school children rather than trolls and ogres.

And if you need to cheese it up to squeak your way out of a tough scenario? Shivering Touch is automatically on your list. As is Miracle.

Clerics who fight? Please. You've got more competent things to do with your time. :smallwink:

EDIT: One other perk of this cleric is that just about everything is modular. You don't need to play a cleric of Wee Jas, or be a cloistered cleric. If something in the build is not to your flavor? Cut it! You've got 18 levels of cleric in there! Find something more creative to do with them, or don't because they advance your mastery over undead. Options!