De-optimizing initiative?

[Legendxp]

Challenge for you playground, what's the lowest initiative bonus possible?

Race: Human
Template: ???

??? 16/ Iaijutsu Master 2/ Bayushi Deceiver 2/

Here's what I got so far:

Dex 1 - Initiative is an ability check (-5) Player's Handbook
Credit Legendxp

Cha 1 - Iaijutsu Master 2, Lightning Blade (-5) Oriental Adventures
Credit 7th Son of Sons

Int 1 - Bayushi Deceiver 2, Srike First Strike Last (-5) Oriental Adventures
Credit 7th Son of Sons

Deaf - Condition (-4) Player's Handbook
Credit 7th Son of Sons

Sickened - Condition (-2) Player's Handbook
Credit Legendxp

Torpid - Trait (-2) Unearthed Arcana
Credit Legendxp

Unreactive - Flaw (-6) Unearthed Arcana
Credit Legendxp

Feeble - Flaw (-2) Unearthed Arcana
Credit Legendxp

Hallucinations - Depravity Effect (-6) Heroes of Horror
Credit Talonius

Uncontrollable Seizures* - Taint Effect (-4) Heroes of Horror
Credit Legendxp

Bestow Curse - Spell (-4) Player's Handbook
Credit Hymer

Bestow Greater Curse - Spell (-8) Book of Vile Darkness
Credit TheDarkblade

Dire Curse - Hire a Hexblade 19th (-6) Complete Warrior
Credit Hamste

Mark of Justice - Spell (-4) Player's Handbook
Credit Legendxp

Symbol of Pain - Spell (-4) Player's Handbook
Credit Hamste (This spell is only temporary)

Crushing Despair - Spell (-2) Player's Handbook
Credit Hamste (This spell is only temporary)

Mechanus Gear (Gold/Thistledown/Buoyancy) - Armor (-15) Planar Handbook
Credit Sith_Happens

Don Hastily - Increases Armor check penalty (-1) Player's Handbook
Credit Legendxp

Tower Shield (Gold) x2 - Shields (-26) Player's Handbook
Credit Magnema

Negative Levels (-19) - Gives penalty on ability checks (-19) Player's Handbook
Assuming a level 20 character

Robe of Vermin - Cursed Item (-5) Dungeon Master's Guide
Credit Hamste

Current Record (-135)

Armor made from magically treated Gold or platinum increases the armor check penalty by 3. Magic of Faerun Thistledown padding increases the penalty by 1. Races of the Wild Add the Buoyancy option to get an addtional -1 penalty. Underdark

According to what I've been told, as long as the penalties are untyped and of a different name they stack. Mark of Justice, Bestow Curse, Bestow Greater Curse, and Dire Curse should stack, assuming you can have more than one curse applied (However, this I am unsure of).

These numbers are considering that initiative is an ability check. If this is not how it is done in your campaign you will have to get rid of some of these penalties. Specifically, ones that give a penalty to dex-based checks or ability checks.

Honorable Mentions,

Cha 1 - Marshal 1, Motivate Dexterity (-5) Miniatures Handbook
Credit SNOWBLUFF

Int 1 - Factotum 3, Brains over Brawn (-5) Dungeonscape
Credit The Insaniac

Int 1 - Wizard 5/ Swiftblade 4, Arcane Reflexes (-5) Online Article
Credit AMFV

Int 1 - Lurk, Initiative Boost (-5) Complete Psionic
Credit 7th Son of Sons

Blind - Condition (-4) Player's Handbook
Credit Hamste

Curse of the Fatespurned - Luckstealer Class Feature (-2)
Credit Hamste

Wis 1 - Yondalla's Sense, Feat (-5) Races of the Wild
Credit 7th Son of Sons

Shock and Awe - Spell (-10) Dungeon Masters Guide?
Credit SNOWBLUFF

[Snowbluff]

You can cast Shock and Awe on yourself. -10

[hymer]

If the DM considers initiative a dex check, then bestow curse can inflict -4 as a standard thing. Otherwise, a custom curse ought to make it possible to affect initiative negatively.

[Chronos]

Mark of Justice works "as Bestow Curse", so I don't think the two of those will stack.

But if you're doing things to yourself to drive it down, why not just Delay?

[Piggy Knowles]

An idiot crusader who auto-refreshes White Raven Tactics can constantly set his initiative at just after his current init (assuming he counts as his own ally). So, not only could he theoretically have a -NI initiative, he also would get to take NI turns in a round.

[Telonius]

Heroes of Horror: Hallucinating (Moderate Depravity effect). -6 to Initiative.
Heroes of Horror: Uncontrollable Seizures (Moderate Taint effect). -4 to Initiative.

[Legendxp]

Mark of Justice works "as Bestow Curse", so I don't think the two of those will stack.

But if you're doing things to yourself to drive it down, why not just Delay?

Don't worry I checked the rules on this. Even though it does the same thing as a curse, it having a different name allows it to stack. Also, this is just for fun, I'm not actually using this in a campaign.

[Particle_Man]

It makes one pine for the 1st edition Unearthed Arcana "final word" broad swords (they strike last in the round, but they auto hit anyone that hit you that round, up to your limit of attacks per round).

[TheDarkblade]

Instead of Bestow Curse, you could use Bestow Greater Curse from the book of vile darkness which gives a -8 to checks instead of -4.

[Particle_Man]

Give this guy White Raven Tactics and a buddy (or give the Buddy the same thing, plus White Raven Tactics), to move the score down one more in initiative?

Actually, could two guys with WRT move each other down infinitely in initiative?

[Sith_Happens]

Wearing armor with which you aren't proficient applies its armor check penalty to all Strength and Dexterity-based checks, of which initiative explicitly is one.

The highest ACP I know of before templates, materials, and other modifications is Mechanus Gear (Planar Handbook) with -10. Having it made from magically-treated gold or platinum (Magic of Faerun) adds another -3. Replacing the normal padding with Thistledown (Races of the Wild) adds another -1.

So that's -14 altogether. Mechanus Gear also reduces your speed more than normal, so if you somehow still act before one of your enemies you'll be hard-pressed to hit them in melee on your first turn unless you're already in close quarters.

[Snowbluff]

Marshal, Motivate Dex with 1 cha. -5

Also, I should be credited in all caps. That is our way. :smalltongue:

[The Insaniac]

Take three levels of factotum with intelligence 3. Brains over brawn gives you your int mod to all strength and dex based checks.

[Magnema]

Wearing armor with which you aren't proficient applies its armor check penalty to all Strength and Dexterity-based checks, of which initiative explicitly is one.

The highest ACP I know of before templates, materials, and other modifications is Mechanus Gear (Planar Handbook) with -10. Having it made from magically-treated gold or platinum (Magic of Faerun) adds another -3. Replacing the normal padding with Thistledown (Races of the Wild) adds another -1.

So that's -14 altogether. Mechanus Gear also reduces your speed more than normal, so if you somehow still act before one of your enemies you'll be hard-pressed to hit them in melee on your first turn unless you're already in close quarters.

If you're going for ACP, how about wielding two tower shields, modified however possible, for another -20 at least?

As an aside: to a minor extent, I actually built this character as an NPC. He was inattentive and torpid, with a 10 Dex (-8 init); he was a knight, so he didn't want to go first mechanically anyway, so I just added that he was incredibly lazy (and fat, thus his high Con). I wasn't optimizing specifically for minimum initiative, though, I was just trying to get as much out of "nothing" (where losing initiative is nothing) as possible - so no bestow curse or things that have other costs.

[Sith_Happens]

If you're going for ACP, how about wielding two tower shields, modified however possible, for another -20 at least?

-26 if both tower shields are gold or platinum.

[Just to Browse]

mechanus gear has padding?

[Legendxp]

Wow, my faith in you guys wasn't disappointed. Excellent ideas, I'll add them.

[AMFV]

Just get a Dex of zero, paralysis = never acting, that's the equivalent of an infinite negative in initiative. Actually even worse since you still don't get to act at the end.

[7th son of sons]

Deafness is a sweet -4 to Initiative.

[Legendxp]

Where's Deafness from?

[Zombimode]

It's a standard condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#deafened).

[AMFV]

What is the objective here? I mean why not just delay? Is it just a thought exercise? Knowing that may help with the planning thing.

[Legendxp]

Pff! Lol, I thought it was a trait or something. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:Yeah, just a thought exercise. There are other ways to get initiative to -NI. Paralyzed, Petrified, White Raven Tactics, 0 Dex, etc.. This is just for fun.

[Hamste]

What is the objective here? I mean why not just delay? Is it just a thought exercise? Knowing that may help with the planning thing.

Just for fun, they have said they would never use this in a campaign.

[AMFV]

Just for fun, they have said they would never use this in a campaign.

Well I'd imagine not, I was mostly looking for any constraints on what could be included and trying to figure out if -NI was an appropriate answer or not.

[Flickerdart]

I can just imagine it - a drooling moron stumbles around the world wearing more gold than a treasury and carrying more dark magic than a sack of witches, lashing out very slowly at imaginary threats.

[Legendxp]

Ooh, that just gave me an idea. Are there any cursed items we could look into? What about negative levels, does that work?

EDIT: ZOMG! Negative levels work! :smallbiggrin:

[Hamste]

Forgot to mention blind like deafened gives a penalty to dex checks (-4)

[AMFV]

Factotum with a negative intelligence lets you take that negative against your initiative as a dex check. It doesn't actually say that it limits it to positive changes or has a minimum value, so that should work for you.

[Legendxp]

I'm not quite sure if I want to include blind as well. It says "most" dexterity checks. Also, that would generate infinite surprise rounds.

[AMFV]

I'm not quite sure if I want to include blind as well. It says "most" dexterity checks. Also, that would generate infinite surprise rounds.

It say intelligence as a modifier on Strength checks, dexterity checks, and skill checks. So that should work.

[Hamste]

Flask of curses gives negative 2 skill checks not ability checks never mind

Robes of Vermin give a negative 5 (not sure the item wearing rules and if you can wear a robe and armor)

[nedz]

Optional extra for your Armour
Buoyancy Und p65 +1 ACP

[Legendxp]

It say intelligence as a modifier on Strength checks, dexterity checks, and skill checks. So that should work.

Sorry, I was replying to someone else, I should have mentioned that. I already added in factotum though. Thanks for the input.

[AMFV]

Sorry, I was replying to someone else, I should have mentioned that. I already added in factotum though. Thanks for the input.

Dagnabbit I was ninja'd. If you were a cha-based caster though and took the number of levels in Swiftblade, then had your Charisma cut, that should get you another -5. You could probably even combine that with the Factotum method, of course you'd have to get the ability damage at a later point, but that should be another -5.

Edit: Or you could use the Trapsmith thing, then lower your Int, actually you don't have to be able to cast haste, you just have to used your third level spell slots to do nothing else, so you should qualify for trapsmith... then you'd get the -5 twice from the swiftblade ability and the factotum ability.

[Legendxp]

I just added swiftblade to the list.

[AMFV]

I just added swiftblade to the list.

You can also get into it from Factotum into Trapsmith... Thus doubling the negative penalty to a -10. The skill prereqs would be hard if you start with int 1, but not unreachable... I think you'd be better of getting your int dropped at a later point though.

[Hamste]

Being panicked, frightened or shaken can lower your initiative by 2 (do not stack with each other though)

Symbol of pain give negative 4

Crushing despair gives negative 2

Hexblade curse gives negative 2

Luckstealer gives negative 2

If many more classes or spells are found you might need leadership to get a cohort who focuses solely on casting.

[7th son of sons]

Wisdom of 1 Plus Yondalla Sense = Another -4

2 lvls of Iajutsu Master is another -4 thanks to our 1 charisma

Bayushi 2 nets use one more -4, But we need a way to be Both a Halfling and a Human to get into this and to get Yondalla's sense

[nedz]

Well Greater Hexblade curse gives negative 4, but we already have a curse.

[Bavarian itP]

Neither the Factotum nor the Marshal works, because the rules talk explicitly about bonus, not modifier. And the marshal even says "charisma bonus (if any)". It's pretty clear only positive modifiers are bonuses.

[Legendxp]

Yeah I just found out the swiftblade doesn't work either. If you lower your casting score to less than 13 you can no longer cast haste, and can't meet the prerequisites of the class. You then lose the Arcane reflexes class feature.

[Particle_Man]

The weird thing is, no matter how low the initiative gets, this person reacts within 6 seconds of some high-initiative person, and indeed, gets to act for the first time before the high-init person acts for the second, and gets to act for the second time before the high-init person acts for the third, etc.

So, assuming that no one else is trying to "de-optimize" I would say that once you have achieved -20 or so you have done all that needs to be done.

[nedz]

Actually it would be quite funny if you were to do all of this, for everyone else to then turn around and delay until after you.

[AMFV]

Yeah I just found out the swiftblade doesn't work either. If you lower your casting score to less than 13 you can no longer cast haste, and can't meet the prerequisites of the class. You then lose the Arcane reflexes class feature.

Not so, it's not a complete warrior class. Which are the only classes to which that particular issue is a problem. No other classes lose prestige class benefits if they suddenly lose prerequisites.

[Legendxp]

Not so, it's not a complete warrior class. Which are the only classes to which that particular issue is a problem. No other classes lose prestige class benefits if they suddenly lose prerequisites.

Are you certain? I had thought that the complete warrior restriction was applied to all prestige classes, not just the ones in the book.

[Sith_Happens]

Are you certain? I had thought that the complete warrior restriction was applied to all prestige classes, not just the ones in the book.

It can't, because it contradicts the DMG rules on the same subject. Also, trying to apply them generally leads to Schrodinger's Dragon Disciple/Ur-Priest.

[Boci]

It can't, because it contradicts the DMG rules on the same subject.

No it doesn't, the DMG says nothing about the subject, so there is nothing for CW to contradict.


Also, trying to apply them generally leads to Schrodinger's Dragon Disciple/Ur-Priest.

That's the DM and players problem, not RAW.

[AMFV]

No it doesn't, the DMG says nothing about the subject, so there is nothing for CW to contradict.



That's the DM and players problem, not RAW.

However the rule is never brought up again, and it specifically refers to the prestige classes in that book, so being that it is not a general rule it should only apply to the prestige classes in the book.

Furthermore since several prestige classes as published wouldn't function without a written exception, and there is none provided, even in books that follow after the complete warrior ones, we must infer that the rule only applies to those classes.

[Boci]

However the rule is never brought up again, and it specifically refers to the prestige classes in that book, so being that it is not a general rule it should only apply to the prestige classes in the book.

No, it doesn't mention any specific PrC, all it says is "a prestige class" and never gets more specific. And a rule doesn't need to be repeated.


Furthermore since several prestige classes as published wouldn't function without a written exception, and there is none provided, even in books that follow after the complete warrior ones, we must infer that the rule only applies to those classes.

Not RAWs problem. And besides, I'd rather add a specific "this does not cause them to lose access to the PrC" to those PrC then have all PrC stay once preqs are no longer met.

[AMFV]

No, it doesn't mention any specific PrC, all it says is "a prestige class" and never gets more specific. And a rule doesn't need to be repeated.



Not RAWs problem. And besides, I'd rather add a specific "this does not cause them to lose access to the PrC" to those PrC then have all PrC stay once preqs are no longer met.

This has been pretty heavily argued and generally it's come down to being that it only affects the Complete Warrior PrCs, mostly because it's in the section on them, because the Complete Warrior is not an authority on PrCs other than it's own and that text does not occur elsewhere. As such it doesn't have the authority to override or change the rules for other prestige classes, particularly those in books that don't include that text, which includes many books published later.

[Boci]

This has been pretty heavily argued and generally it's come down to being that it only affects the Complete Warrior PrCs, mostly because it's in the section on them, because the Complete Warrior is not an authority on PrCs other than it's own and that text does not occur elsewhere. As such it doesn't have the authority to override or change the rules for other prestige classes, particularly those in books that don't include that text, which includes many books published later.

Meh, each to their own. I've never seen it proved either way, and I prefer Complete Warrior approach, with exemptions made for those who would automatically disqualify themselves.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Shock and Awe won't work unless he has a way to act in a surprise round while flat footed.

Why not use Girralon's Grasp or a graft to wield more tower shields?

[nedz]

Why not use Girralon's Grasp or a graft to wield more tower shields?

Oh, this is going to turn into how many arms can we get isn't it ?

This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0) should offer some ideas, if we can't break -1,000 using these tricks I'll be disappointed.

[Sith_Happens]

Oh, this is going to turn into how many arms can we get isn't it ?

All the best threads do.:smallwink:

[Flavel]

How about the character in question being Venerable. I think that might reduce the dex a bit.

A failed save versus flesh to stone might affect the victim's initiative.

[Legendxp]

I'm probably going to limit the arms to two, since most humanoids have only two arms (Otherwise, it will get a bit too crazy for my liking). As for the prerequisites, I'm not sure, so I'm not going to include the class.

[Sith_Happens]

How about the character in question being Venerable. I think that might reduce the dex a bit.

We're already assuming DEX 1.

[Hytheter]

It's a shame Trick Room is not available in this game.

[Slipperychicken]

Does it help if we penalize Spot and Listen checks so you're guaranteed not to act in surprise rounds?

[7th son of sons]

6 Levels of Lurk would let us add our Intelligence yet again to our Initiate, giving us yet another -4

[Legendxp]

Unfortunately, it has to say modifier. Otherwise there's a good chance that it won't work.

EDIT: Found out that the hexblade's curse does stack with the other curses, but you cannot curse yourself, it has to be a foe. You'll have to hire a 19th level hexblade to hit you, which might cost a lot of money.