Value of Eldritch Blast

[hymer]

Suppose you want to make a magical item, say a ring or a scepter, which gives you first level Eldritch Blast like a warlock - i.e. at will. How would you value that?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Call it a first level spell, CL 1, at-will... 2000 gold, according to the guidelines.

[Red Fel]

Call it a first level spell, CL 1, at-will... 2000 gold, according to the guidelines.

This, in essence. EB is an SLA, as used by Warlocks, so categorizing it as a spell as cast by a first-level Warlock is fine in my book.

Now, having it scale with level the way a Warlock's would is a big, messy ball of wax. But just being able to use it for an instant 1d6 blast, as a 60-foot single-target ranged touch attack ray, for a standard action at-will, works for me.

If you want more than that, just take levels in Warlock, I guess.

[hymer]

Thanks guys!

[Ramza00]

Eldritch blast does damage similar to magic missile (1d4+1 vs 1d6) . A command word of a spell is spell level*caster level*1800 gp.

1d6 1800 gp
2d6 5400 gp
3d6 9000 gp
4d6 12600 gp
5d6 16200 gp

For each additional 1d6 just add 3600 gp. This item will be balanced as long as you need a caster level of x+2 to craft it where x is the number times 1d6. Remember the damage is single target with only a range of 60ft.

[Drachasor]

Eldritch blast does damage similar to magic missile (1d4+1 vs 1d6) . A command word of a spell is spell level*caster level*1800 gp.

1d6 1800 gp
2d6 5400 gp
3d6 9000 gp
4d6 12600 gp
5d6 16200 gp

For each additional 1d6 just add 3600 gp. This item will be balanced as long as you need a caster level of x+2 to craft it where x is the number times 1d6. Remember the damage is single target with only a range of 60ft.

You are overcharging in one respect. Magic Missile is auto-hit with a much longer range.

It is reasonable for there to be a 1st level spell that does 1d6/level damage (max 5d6) at a range of 60ft on a touch attack. Heck, you could even bump it up to medium range easily enough.

So that's 1800 (1d6), 3600 (2d6), 5400 (3d6), 7200 (4d6), 9000 (5d6).

Frankly, I think that's still too expensive. In terms of actual play, this item would never be worth the cost going by the pricing guidelines. Even if you get it before a Warlock would. Let's keep in mind that 5d6 is just averaging 17.5 damage per round IF you hit. That becomes unimpressive pretty quickly.

It's worse if you want more damage than this, since you'd have to bump it up to a 2nd level spell.

[stack]

Could price it as if it were energy ray. Energy ray offers different damage types and scaling range (25+5/2), but is generally similar.

[Ramza00]

You convinced me Drachasor, looking at the wbl table you can never go too excessive even with Xd6 with where x equals x*1800 gp for if you seriously want more damage at early levels you will be using all your wealth.

I will also keep the same formula if you go past x being greater than 5, small single target damage past level 5 will be a waste of an action.

[Fouredged Sword]

I could see it being worth it for a rogue due to it being a reasonable damage touch attack to sneak attack with.

Then again, I am in favor of a wand of acid splash and alchemists fire/acid/lighting in my rogue's pouch for much the same reason. Trolls son't kill themselves you know.

[hymer]

@ Ramza00 & Drachasor: Thanks for the debate. :smallsmile:

@ stack: Presumably, a first level psionic power would be the same as a 1st level spell, so that fits quite well with what people've been saying.

@ Fouredged Sword: Touch attacks are nice. I was thinking a low level scout might also be interested. Really the whole thing has a fluff reason rather than a practical one, but it's nice if the power isn't utterly useless.

[bekeleven]

Not that Eldritch Blast is a first-level SLA and the warlock's CL equals his class level.

Pricing it according to that would probably be closer to RAW. That is to say, the CL goes up by 2 for every D6 you add.

[Drachasor]

Not that Eldritch Blast is a first-level SLA and the warlock's CL equals his class level.

Pricing it according to that would probably be closer to RAW. That is to say, the CL goes up by 2 for every D6 you add.

It got errata'd so that the Spell Level equivalent increases too -- though this was primarily for Metamagic and Invulnerability Sphere reasons. So it is bad to use it as a base to go off of.

We should always remember the pricing guidelines are guidelines. A lot of constant effect buffs end up too cheap. However, I've found that a lot of direct attack magic items are too expensive using the guidelines.

[TypoNinja]

Slightly related question, the MIC has a couple of items that increase EB damage, but in general warlock goodies are few. How does one price Bonus EB damage? As in, I'm a warlock and want items that would increase EB damage with no limit on uses per day.

Slightly more complex, can we make Knowstones or Runestaffs for Invocations? Meta-invocation rods?

[Drachasor]

Slightly related question, the MIC has a couple of items that increase EB damage, but in general warlock goodies are few. How does one price Bonus EB damage? As in, I'm a warlock and want items that would increase EB damage with no limit on uses per day.

Slightly more complex, can we make Knowstones or Runestaffs for Invocations? Meta-invocation rods?

Hmm, the Chasuble of Fell Power costs 8000gp for +1d6 or 18000gp for +2d6. Seems overly expensive to little ol' me. Consider that for a weapon +1d6 damage is just a +1 bonus.

I'd be tempted to say that a weapon could be enchanted to enhance Eldritch Blast. Each +1 equivalent spent gives an increase of +1d6 damage. If I were running a game, I'd probably wave the need to enchant the weapon to +1 first. So a Sceptor/Mace/Whatever of +1d6 EB would cost 2k. +2d6 would cost 8k. +3d6 would cost 18k. +4d6, 32k...and so forth. Max of +10d6 for 200k. Hmm, not sure if that max would need to get toned down or not -- probably depends, like many things, on the optimization level of the group. This would not stack with magical items that provide a constant damage increase to EB like the Chasuble.

Seems like that's kind of what they did with the Chasuble, but includes the +1 payment in the price without any benefit. Bit lame, eh?

As for items that let you know addition Invocations. Seems to me like pricing them like you would for equivalent spells would...probably work. That is base it on the Spell Level * Minimum Warlock Level to use. Hmm, then to use it you'd have to expend a use of an equivalent power Invocation -- this prevents non-Warlocks from using it and prevents Warlocks from using it too early.

[hymer]

There's already a kind of item which grants additional invocations: Codex Advocare of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Not OGL, so I can say little more. But it's costly for what it does. Not beyond what a warlock in need of that particular kind of thing could be willing to pay, but surprisingly expensive.

[TypoNinja]

Hmm, the Chasuble of Fell Power costs 8000gp for +1d6 or 18000gp for +2d6. Seems overly expensive to little ol' me. Consider that for a weapon +1d6 damage is just a +1 bonus.

I'd be tempted to say that a weapon could be enchanted to enhance Eldritch Blast. Each +1 equivalent spent gives an increase of +1d6 damage. If I were running a game, I'd probably wave the need to enchant the weapon to +1 first. So a Sceptor/Mace/Whatever of +1d6 EB would cost 2k. +2d6 would cost 8k. +3d6 would cost 18k. +4d6, 32k...and so forth. Max of +10d6 for 200k. Hmm, not sure if that max would need to get toned down or not -- probably depends, like many things, on the optimization level of the group. This would not stack with magical items that provide a constant damage increase to EB like the Chasuble.

Seems like that's kind of what they did with the Chasuble, but includes the +1 payment in the price without any benefit. Bit lame, eh?

As for items that let you know addition Invocations. Seems to me like pricing them like you would for equivalent spells would...probably work. That is base it on the Spell Level * Minimum Warlock Level to use. Hmm, then to use it you'd have to expend a use of an equivalent power Invocation -- this prevents non-Warlocks from using it and prevents Warlocks from using it too early.

Had a similar problem figuring out how to price an epic amulet of natural attack. Turns out its got the added cost for non-slot affinity, EB wonderous items probably have the same.

If memory serves, there is a rod/mace that gives bonus EB damage just on a charges a day method. Suppose I could try reverse engineering that to figure out cost of EB.


There's already a kind of item which grants additional invocations: Codex Advocare of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Not OGL, so I can say little more. But it's costly for what it does. Not beyond what a warlock in need of that particular kind of thing could be willing to pay, but surprisingly expensive.

Not surprised, Knowstones for a sorcerer are hilariously expensive too, but in all honesty I'd say extra invocations are more powerful for a warlock than a spell is to a Sorc. Considering unlimited use a day and limited list, it wouldn't that that much effort to get all invocations.

I just wasn't sure on pricing since there is a feat to get extra known invocations, but that's not a thing for extra known spells until Epic, which too me implied that the designers valued an extra invocation as less than an extra spell, so possibly cheaper than Knowstone/RuneStaff. But then I ran into "If I can make a RuneStaff that grants Invcation uses I can know all of them for hilariously cheap, that can't be right"

My DM has Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, I'll have to give it a look after christmas

[bekeleven]

I just wasn't sure on pricing since there is a feat to get extra known invocations, but that's not a thing for extra known spells until Epic, which too me implied that the designers valued an extra invocation as less than an extra spell

Except, you know, Extra Spell from Complete Arcane.

As for EB: EB's damage is increased through anything that grants an increase to all damage rolls, such as skirmish or knowledge devotion.

[Urpriest]

Here's the thing: if you want it to be Eldritch Blast, rather than just "a magic item that does small amounts of damage at-will", that means you want to exploit synergy with some particular class features and feats. That should probably be worth a surcharge depending on what you want to use it for.

[mabriss lethe]

For the sake of comparison, the Gloves of the Uldra Savant grant Ray of Frost at Will along with other goodies and they cost 3100 gp.

[Darth Stabber]

Big fists full of 6s never add up to as much as it seems like it should. The reason that, aside from mailmen, casters eschew damage in favor of BC, Save or X spells, debuffs, and buffs is because damage is easier and more plentiful for those swinging large bits of metal. You can save a lot of money buy just hitting things with a sword or an arrow, or better yet getting someone big and burly to do it for you.

[Rubik]

Look at the boosts and stances in ToB, then see what you can get with feats and magic items (crown of the white raven, and whatnot). If your UMD is high (and you're a warlock, so why wouldn't it be?), buy a master fiddle for 18k from Savage Species. You can use all the bardic music of a level 9 bard with a DC 25 UMD check, and if you've got the dragonblood subtype (such as from being dragonborn), you can go Dragonfire Inspiration fairly easily.

[bekeleven]

Gestalt Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3 //Scout 3/Ranger 3/Dragon Devotee 5/Highland Stalker 2/Unseen Seer 1/Enlightened Spirit 6 deals 23D6 damage with his blast, without Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion.

Although my favorite use of D6s (outside of shadowrun 4e) is my titan-blooded pixie with greater mighty wallop.

[The Grue]

Frankly, I think that's still too expensive. In terms of actual play, this item would never be worth the cost going by the pricing guidelines. Even if you get it before a Warlock would. Let's keep in mind that 5d6 is just averaging 17.5 damage per round IF you hit. That becomes unimpressive pretty quickly.

I think that's more of a problem with Eldrich Blast than the pricing guidelines.

[SiuiS]

This, in essence. EB is an SLA, as used by Warlocks, so categorizing it as a spell as cast by a first-level Warlock is fine in my book.

Now, having it scale with level the way a Warlock's would is a big, messy ball of wax. But just being able to use it for an instant 1d6 blast, as a 60-foot single-target ranged touch attack ray, for a standard action at-will, works for me.

If you want more than that, just take levels in Warlock, I guess.

Eldritch blast does 1d6 damage. The item that gives you a single free 1d6 damage ranged attack for free every round is around 2000 gold, isn't it? There's the glove of javelins, and there's another one that does the same thing.

Maybe it's five thousand, im AFB.

[Drachasor]

I think that's more of a problem with Eldrich Blast than the pricing guidelines.

It's a general problem with magic items that have direct damage spells in them.