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View Full Version : Battling a Hydra: Imp. Sunder + Great Cleave = Way too easy?



Indurain
2007-01-17, 02:52 PM
I'm currently running the Red Hand of Doom campaign, and my fighter just happened to take kindly to the Power Attack tree of feats. As such, he has Improved Sunder and Great Cleave. As the last session ended the party was terrified as a 6 headed Hydra burst out of the water, and charged towards them.

My question is, since the Hydra's heads count as weapons and not creatures, can my fighter use his Great Cleave feat to (basically) take out all the heads in one round? Or would he require seperate attacks for each head? I've scoured the books, and am starting to think it'll be my decision in the end, but I also know that sometimes I miss the most glaringly obvious things.

Any thoughts?

Xefas
2007-01-17, 02:57 PM
You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon...

Thats what the SRD says about sundering (as opposed to an Overrun, where they say 'a standard action'), so I'd think you can replace any melee attack you make with a sunder instead...so, yes, I think that would work versus a hydra.

I think...

Could be wrong...

Matthew
2007-01-17, 02:58 PM
I don't think Cleave or Great Cleave would work in this instance, since the Hydra is not actually slain and the Heads are not actually individual creatures. Up to you, though.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-17, 02:59 PM
It'd be like getting Great Cleaves off of Improved Disarm. Doesn't work. You have to actually kill the enemy.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-17, 03:00 PM
By the RAW a Hydra is one creature (the heads are really more like weapons as you say), so Cleave won't work unless you make it work as a house rule.

MrNexx
2007-01-17, 03:03 PM
They cannot. They are not creatures, they simply have HP totals and make attacks.

Spiryt
2007-01-17, 03:04 PM
It won't work anyway: Sunder is always standard action so you can make only one in round ( not counting haste or cheese), oposse to:

Disarm7
Grapple7
Trip an opponent7


7 These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.
Sunder is not precisely "attack" but standard action so won't work with cleave. Sunder will be too powerfull other way.
At least that's how i get those rules

Larrin
2007-01-17, 03:07 PM
i think his point is that you did *kill* (at least destroy) your target. You're cutting off a head. Cut off a goblins head and you can cleave into the goblin standing next to it, so why not with a hydras. Logically it makes sense, mechanically its tough to say. The big question is can you normally cleave off a sunder. Since one of "Combat brutes" abilities is the ability to cleave off a sunder, i'd say normally you can't do it, thus you can't mechanically.

combat brute can be found in Complete warrior or here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Combat_Brute,CW)

Mewtarthio
2007-01-17, 03:12 PM
And even with Combat Brute, you'll only get the extra attack against the Hydra proper (that is, its body).

Spiryt
2007-01-17, 03:15 PM
Sundering Cleave: To use this maneuver, you must destroy a foe's weapon or shield with a successful sunder attempt (see page 158 of the Player's Handbook). If you do so, you gain an immediate additional melee attack against the foe. The additional attack is with the same weapon and at the same attack bonus as the attack that destroyed the weapon or shield.

Yeah but it specifies that you must attack foe's weapon or shield, then you can attack foe. So you could only atack hydra normally, not any other head.

I think that in this part rules are "making good work". It would be extremaly ridiculous to cut more than one of moving, serpent like neck in one attack. And a little too easy too

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-17, 03:15 PM
It won't work anyway: Sunder is always standard action so you can make only one in round ( not counting haste or cheese), oposse to:


Sunder can be substituted for any attack and you do not need to use a standard action.

It was also addressed here:




Is sunder a special standard action or is it a melee
attack variant? It has its own entry on the actions table, but
the text describing it refers to it as a melee attack. Is sunder
a melee attack only in the sense of hitting something with a
melee weapon, or is sunder a true melee attack?

Sunder is a special kind of melee attack. If it were a special
standard action, its description would say so (as the descriptive
text for the Manyshot feat says).
If you make a full attack, and you have multiple attacks
from a high base attack bonus, you can sunder more than once,
or attack and sunder, or some other combination of attacking
and sundering.
Sunder does indeed get its own entry in Table 8–2: Actions
in Combat in the Player’s Handbook. It needs one because
unlike a regular melee attack, sunder provokes an attack of
opportunity (although not if you have the Improved Sunder
feat).
You can also disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or
attack of opportunity).

Spiryt
2007-01-17, 03:25 PM
Sunder can be substituted for any attack and you do not need to use a standard action.


Crap, PLayers Hanbook appears to say that it's an stand act...
Why it's not described as Grapple dis and trip then? Again rules are quite unclear....

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-01-17, 05:10 PM
If you look at the descriptions under Special Attacks you will see that they use similar expressions.

It appears on the table under standard actions (as pointed out in the FAQ), but it does say that it is an attack in the brackets.

Mastrofski
2007-01-17, 06:16 PM
I think it's the DM's discretion. Personally, I'd allow it. I view cleave as a single swinging motion, and the only reason you can't cleave on regular hits is because there is a meat shield standing in your way, however, once you kill the meat shield, your swing can continue onto the next available target. That being said, if you kill a hydra's head, I see no reason why the swing can't be continued. Again, this is just my view on it.

NullAshton
2007-01-17, 06:57 PM
The creature did not, in fact, drop. The creature simply is lacking one of it's heads, and did not drop to the ground. And the hydras head is more of an object.

Hmmm... dealing enough damage to make the creature drop... would tripping someone count as making them drop? :)

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-17, 07:01 PM
Hmmm... dealing enough damage to make the creature drop... would tripping someone count as making them drop? :)
Sure, but does tripping deal damage?
Or more specifically, is any incidental damage you find a way to add to a trip attack the cause of the creature dropping?

NullAshton
2007-01-17, 07:03 PM
Sure, but does tripping deal damage?
Or more specifically, is any incidental damage you find a way to add to a trip attack the cause of the creature dropping?

It does using knockdown attack. Deal 10 damage or more, free trip attempt.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-17, 07:13 PM
Well, in the case of a trip attempt, you don't deal any damage to make them drop - so the amount of damage you needed was 0. Did you deal 0 damage? Yes! So, Cleave away!

...is what I would say if I were an evil munchkin.

Indon
2007-01-17, 07:21 PM
Mechanically, no.

Realistically, if I were DM'ing I might give one such cleave, as a special circumstance and because cleaving two hydra heads off at once would look really cool. More than one would be kind of silly.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-17, 10:03 PM
Well, in the case of a trip attempt, you don't deal any damage to make them drop - so the amount of damage you needed was 0. Did you deal 0 damage? Yes! So, Cleave away!

...is what I would say if I were an evil munchkin.

Most Lupine and some Canine creatures deal damage with the Bite that initiates the Trip. :smallbiggrin:

Indurain
2007-01-18, 01:06 AM
Wow...thanks everyone for the help, it's greatly appreciated. It would seem that by the book, you get one head at a time, though as was mentioned I may allow a second head.

You guys are great, and keep your eyes peeled, I'm sure I'll have a tonne of questions as the campaign progresses.

Thanks,

Indy

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-18, 01:24 AM
You did not kill the hydra, so you do not get Cleave to activate, just like you do not get a free attack after sundering someone's weapon with Cleave.

You can Sunder multiple heads in one turn if you use a full attack option and use all your attacks as sunders, provided you have sufficent BAB to have multiple attacks in a full attack option, have haste, or find some other way of having multiple attacks in one round.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-18, 06:31 AM
Most Lupine and some Canine creatures deal damage with the Bite that initiates the Trip. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, I meant more in the case of a tripping human.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-18, 10:29 AM
It does bring up the interesting possibility of a pack of Worgs with Great Cleave tripping everything that surrounds them each round. :D

OzymandiasVolt
2007-01-18, 11:38 AM
*ruins the fun by pointing out that drop was intended to mean death or unconsciousness (negative HP), not being knocked prone.*

NullAshton
2007-01-18, 11:46 AM
*ruins the fun by pointing out that drop was intended to mean death or unconsciousness (negative HP), not being knocked prone.*

It was INTENDED to mean that, true. Of course, that isn't what is written...

its_all_ogre
2007-01-18, 03:17 PM
advanced worg's with whirlwind attacks.
there is in fact an epic monster very wolf like that does that.
but nastier!

Woot Spitum
2007-01-18, 03:26 PM
That reminds me of a move from Dragon Warrior Monsters called Bigtrip. Basically, it allows you to attemt to trip everyone in the opposing party (3 total) in one move.:smalleek:

Vance_Nevada
2007-01-18, 05:10 PM
I say let him do it. He's spent a lot of feats, and he's probably never going to get to do this sort of thing again (a giant series of sundering cleaves!). It's very cool. Besides, the odds are against him actually making all of them - he still has to hit and do suitable damage with each attack, so more likely he's taking a couple of heads with each attack rather than all of them.

Gamebird
2007-01-18, 05:23 PM
On the other hand, it's supposed to be a fearsome monster and a real threat to the party. A single character shouldn't be able to chop it to pieces on the first round. Run it by the rules. There's no reason to ruin anyone's fun by cheating.

CuthroatMcGee
2007-01-18, 07:31 PM
On the other hand, it's supposed to be a fearsome monster and a real threat to the party. A single character shouldn't be able to chop it to pieces on the first round. Run it by the rules. There's no reason to ruin anyone's fun by cheating.

Seems to me it would be more fun for a fighter to chop off a whole bunch of heads of a hydra all at once (a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity) than to fight a long and drawn-out battle over it. Besides, since the hydra encounter didn't hurt anyone before it died, the DM can just conjure some other monster for them to actually fight. That's how it seems to me.