Weapon Finesse as a Prerequisite

[GhengisConrad]

Can anyone think of anything, any class or any feat for which 'Weapon Finesse" is a prerequisite?

Is there any strict RAW precedent for swapping or modifying this specific feat even when it is a racial bonus feat? 192 on PHB II outlines retraining feats; but unless some eratta somewhere or something specifies differently, it seems pretty clear retraining needs to be something you choose, as appose to something inherent to a class or race.

[Boci]

As of 3.5, Weapon Finesse (X) doesn't exist, just Weapon Finesse, which now applies to all light weapons, natural attacks and other non-light weapons called out as eligible.

As for retraining, Dark Chaos Shufflle (requires Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the DC from Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss) will work on any feat you have, regardless of the source. They are relatively high level spells however, and I think one has a small XP cost.

Edit: Both has a 250 XP cost.

[Fax Celestis]

...what race are you looking at that has that feat?

[GhengisConrad]

...what race are you looking at that has that feat?

Anthropomorphic Raven.

[Fax Celestis]

Anthropomorphic Raven.

Ah. It's using the 3.0 raven stats, and SS is a 3.0 book, one of the last. It should be updated to match the 3.5 base creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/raven.htm), which has the Weapon Finesse feat as a bonus feat.


Weapon Finesse [General]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

...of which the 3.5 version no longer specifies for a particular weapon. Natural weapons are always considered light weapons, and as such are covered by the feat.

[GhengisConrad]

"The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites."

updating its stats would possibly change its level adjustment. If there isn't RAW for it, it doesn't fly. My group is a bunch of lawyer types. Its how we play. It's really the part we enjoy.....

So I found duelist... but that's not a very good class. Can't wear armor with it...

Embrace the shadows is cool, but basically spells or items that alter your character permanently aren't considered 'kosher' for builds in my group.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Weapon Focus (Claw) isn't RAW for 3.5 either. It's nonsense. The feat does not exist in that form anymore.

[Boci]

So your group is a bunch of rule lawyers, but won't allow you to benefit from spell combos that explicitly work by RAW? They like cherries don't they.


Natural weapons are always considered light weapons

Pretty sure they are considered finesseable one handed weapons, otherwise you wouldn't be able to power attack with them.

[GhengisConrad]

So your group is a bunch of rule lawyers, but won't allow you to benefit from spell combos that explicitly work by RAW? They like cherries don't they.

Like a half-vampire daywalker... in reverse.
None of their powers, all of their weaknesses.

edit:
But yeah, replacing the deprecated feat with the new one should be fine. Its more the issue of updating stats that would possibly change level adjustments.

[Darrin]

Pretty sure they are considered finesseable one handed weapons, otherwise you wouldn't be able to power attack with them.

All natural weapons are considered light (see PHB p. 102, under Weapon Finesse). Power Attack works with them because the feat description specifically carves out an exception for unarmed strikes and natural weapons.

[GhengisConrad]

won't allow you to benefit from spell combos that explicitly work by RAW? .


Basically, I could pay for it with my gold, or earn it with my own spell casting.

But having had a wizard spam me with spells is too greasy for us to consider it kosher. Spamming spells specifically is generally looked down upon, especially if you are trying to use it for a prerequisite to something (like other feats). This is just our table. But generally if it 'feels' like cheating, then it is cheating, unless its something inherent to the race or class.

[Boci]

Basically, I could pay for it with my gold, or earn it with my own spell casting.

But having had a wizard spam me with spells is too greasy for us to consider it kosher. Spamming spells specifically is generally looked down upon, especially if you are trying to use it for a prerequisite to something (like other feats). This is just our table. But generally if it 'feels' like cheating, then it is cheating, unless its something inherent to the race or class.

That's a perfectly reasonable stance to have, its just weird when coupled with a strict insistence on RAW in all other things.


All natural weapons are considered light (see PHB p. 102, under Weapon Finesse). Power Attack works with them because the feat description specifically carves out an exception for unarmed strikes and natural weapons.

Oops. I got things the wrong way around.

[GhengisConrad]

That's a perfectly reasonable stance to have, its just weird when coupled with a strict insistence on RAW in all other things.


Well, now... if there was some class or template or something that would transform you racially as well or something (i'm thinking like shadow walker) that would involve such a spell (embrace the taint?) being cast upon you... well... that may go through....

[Fax Celestis]

Like a half-vampire daywalker... in reverse.
None of their powers, all of their weaknesses.

edit:
But yeah, replacing the deprecated feat with the new one should be fine. Its more the issue of updating stats that would possibly change level adjustments.

AFAIK, the raven's stats didn't change (aside from using an updated skill list), just the feat was changed.

[nedz]

Can anyone think of anything, any class or any feat for which 'Weapon Finesse" is a prerequisite?

PrCs
Blade Bravo RoS p99
Catlord CAdv p22
Dread Pirate CAdv p39
Duelist DMG p185
Whisperknife RotW p134

Feats
Aleval School Drow of the Underdark p56
Inlindl School Drow of the Underdark p56

I'm not sure these will help your bird though ?

[GhengisConrad]

PrCs
Blade Bravo RoS p99
Catlord CAdv p22
Dread Pirate CAdv p39
Duelist DMG p185
Whisperknife RotW p134

Feats
Aleval School Drow of the Underdark p56
Inlindl School Drow of the Underdark p56

I'm not sure these will help your bird though ?

This is EXACTLY what I was looking for... unfortunatley none of those are usable far as I can tell....

any chance you somehow missed something?

Is there, perhaps, a way for me to take my massive strength that will be granted by being a half-minotaur feral and dump all of that into my dex somehow instead? Some kind of spell or feat that would make weapon finesse make more sense...?

[Icewraith]

Weapon Finesse is lame enough that you can just kill the feat and let everyone use their dex to hit with finessable weapons instead of strength if their dex is better than their strength.

Probably no one at your table will complain. (It's an unnecessary feat tax for anyone using a particular fighting style, and everyone else doesn't care)

[nedz]

This is EXACTLY what I was looking for... unfortunatley none of those are usable far as I can tell....

any chance you somehow missed something?

Is there, perhaps, a way for me to take my massive strength that will be granted by being a half-minotaur feral and dump all of that into my dex somehow instead? Some kind of spell or feat that would make weapon finesse make more sense...?

It is possible that there are some more.

I'm not sure what you are trying to do ?

I thought that you were trying to build an Anthropomorphic Raven rather than a Feral Half Minotaur ?

[GhengisConrad]

I thought that you were trying to build an Anthropomorphic Raven rather than a Feral Half Minotaur ?

Those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive categories.

Frankly, I like the flavor of anthro-raven more than anthro bat, but there is absolutely no advantage to being that raven other than flavor, and weapon-finesse.

So if I can find a reason to use that finesse....

[TuggyNE]

Those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive categories.

Heheheh. I like your moxie, kid. :smallwink:

[GhengisConrad]

so... no other feats or classes anyone can think of? i *really* want this to work!

[The Viscount]

It's not a total loss if you can't find something to make use of Weapon Finesse. You don't have to use your Dex mod for attack.

While not having weapon finesse as a prerequisite, shadow blade (the feat, not the PrC) from Tome of Battle, which gives dex to damage while in a shadow hand stance with any of shadow hand's preferred weapons, would be useful for a character with weapon finesse.

[kardar233]

It's not a total loss if you can't find something to make use of Weapon Finesse. You don't have to use your Dex mod for attack.

While not having weapon finesse as a prerequisite, shadow blade (the feat, not the PrC) from Tome of Battle, which gives dex to damage while in a shadow hand stance with any of shadow hand's preferred weapons, would be useful for a character with weapon finesse.

Furthermore (though it may not be helpful to you here) Shadow Blade counts as Weapon Finesse for qualification purposes.