Does anyone know why this is?

[HereBeMonsters]

Why does the Hammer of Moradin not advance caster level? It requires casting ability to enter and then completely drops it, does anyone know why they would do that with a class that requires casting levels.

[stack]

The same reason they did that for dragon disciple and arcane archer. Bad design. Though for those two they have the escuse of being early in the system, don't know when Hammer of Moradin was released.

[HereBeMonsters]

Hammer of Moradin was Player's Guide to Faerûn

[HereBeMonsters]

Would it be overly ambitious to give it Spell casting progression? either 10/10 or 9/10 be ok?

[AMFV]

Would it be overly ambitious to give it Spell casting progression? either 10/10 or 9/10 be ok?

I doubt that would be a significant problem, it would up the power of the class pretty considerably though, so it's a better houserule for a medium or a high powered game than for a low powered game.

[HereBeMonsters]

Its for a level 10 campaign that we are starting. So I think it works pretty nicely all things considered.

[AMFV]

Do remember that it will be strictly better at melee than most clerics though, so it'd have to be a game where PrCs that are mostly just power increases are cool, which is most games, but some really low power games might have an issue with it.

[Ravens_cry]

I doubt that would be a significant problem, it would up the power of the class pretty considerably though, so it's a better houserule for a medium or a high powered game than for a low powered game.
I'd be more into 8/10 or even 7/10. You gotta give something up for what it gives.

[AMFV]

I'd be more into 8/10 or even 7/10. You gotta give something up for what it gives.

But it doesn't really give that much, at least not when you have Divine Power, I mean it gives a little bit, but it isn't that big a boost for a cleric at least not one that's a melee cleric with any reasonably anticipated optimization.

A 7/10 PrC for a caster is generally completely worthless, as an 8/10, at least at mid-high levels of optimization. I wouldn't touch it with an eleven foot pole, it's just not worth what you lose. Not even a little.

I would say 9/10, since it's slightly worse than bone knight, but is conceptually similar. And that's about the same level of power.

[infomatic]

It gives more than the other full-BAB classes that give 9/10 cleric progression (Fist of Raziel & Bone Knight are all I can think of, really) — at least for the role it's in: hitting stuff especially hard.

Ruby Knight Vindicator is 8/10 (and probably requires multiclassing) so I'd do 7 or 8 levels.

With 7 levels of casting, Cleric10/HoM10 gets you +17 BAB, 17th level casting — for practically no effort, that's not too bad.

[Fax Celestis]

I would actually compare to the Ordained Champion (CCham).

[AMFV]

It gives more than the other full-BAB classes that give 9/10 cleric progression (Fist of Raziel & Bone Knight are all I can think of, really) — at least for the role it's in: hitting stuff especially hard.

Ruby Knight Vindicator is 8/10 (and probably requires multiclassing) so I'd do 7 or 8 levels.

With 7 levels of casting, Cleric10/HoM10 gets you +17 BAB, 17th level casting — for practically no effort, that's not too bad.

It's not that much better than Fist of Raziel or the Bone Knight, arguably worse than either of them. Fist of Raziel gives quite a few abilities that are impressive and can be optimized with feats. The Bone Knight gives resistances that are difficult to get other places, and minionmancy for free and a free mount.

Most of the Hammer's abilities are either against weak enemies (Drow and Goblins) against things that become rarer and rarer at high levels (people depending on armor bonuses from armor as a defense mechanism) The ability to replicate a lower level spell at PrC level 10. Almost all of the abilities are really really lackluster, except for the dazing weapon one. Except that the Daze one is based on a secondary stat and therefore likely won't have a save that's unbeatable. It's a good prestige class. But as good as Bone Knight, and debatably worse than Fist of Raziel.

[Flickerdart]

I'd give it 9/10 casting, with the first level not giving any. Giving full BAB to full casters for free makes the little rangers and fighters sad.

[HereBeMonsters]

Thanks for the input. It really helps.

[Pluto!]

Total tangent:

Bone Knight doesn't give full BA.

I know everyone here's seen it written and repeated and repeated and a lot of folks really want to keep repeating that it does, but seriously, it doesn't. Bone Knight's a 3/4 BA PrC, just like 95% of other cleric PrCs.

Maybe if we start repeating and repeating that it doesn't, it won't keep getting tossed around for years and years and years as a suggestion and reference for contexts where it doesn't fit?

Maybe?

[/wildly_inappropriate_vent]

[AMFV]

Total tangent:

Bone Knight doesn't give full BA.

I know everyone here's seen it written and repeated and repeated and a lot of folks really want to keep repeating that it does, but seriously, it doesn't. Bone Knight's a 3/4 BA PrC, just like 95% of other cleric PrCs.

Maybe if we start repeating and repeating that it doesn't, it won't keep getting tossed around for years and years and years as a suggestion and reference for contexts where it doesn't fit?

Maybe?

[/wildly_inappropriate_vent]

Well BAB isn't that important for clerics since they have a spell to fix any problems with low BAB, you could give a melee cleric Wizard (or worse) BaB and they'd still be totally fine at meleeing via Divine Power.

It's why it shouldn't factor that highly into the ratings for their prestige classes.

[Phelix-Mu]

Classes designed to increase combat effectiveness shouldn't give full progression in the one thing in the game that makes combat effectiveness a moot point; spellcasting.

I'd rather rebuild it a bit more, crush the melee benefits into 5 levels and give it 3/5 casting progression. You might have to lose out on some fluff stuff (oh noes, not the bonus v goblins!), but you gain

a.) Build versatility; melees need this bad, and front-loaded melee benefits are hardly going to bring the game world crashing down around the HoM.

b.) You drop two caster levels, which is expensive for a caster. 3/5 means a full cleric gets 9ths, but has to be careful about additional cherrypicking of other non-full progression PrCs.

c.) You give straight caster some goodies, without making this class better than more of their base class (I generally find that there are many other options for filling empty levels for Tier 1s, and my sympathy for their plight is generally lacking).

d.) Nicely dovetails with Battlesmith PrC. The two of them are pretty much made for each other.

This might require tweaking entry requirements a bit to allow some earlier entry with less emphasis on casting. But I generally see HoM as more of a divine gish than a full caster given melee prowess (as if cleric needs any more help).

[Anxe]

Simiarly, with an NPC I'm designing right now, I'm frustrated that the Hunter of the Dead PrC doesn't give turning progression. You need turning to enter and its an undead fighting class!