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View Full Version : Campaign Idea - No Full BAB! *Gasp!*



Akennedy
2007-01-17, 03:15 PM
Ok here's the plan:
I'm thinking of making a campaign with nothing but classes that have a average bab or a low bab. It would be a skillful campaign. I'm used to playing in campaigns where my players just power attack everything they see so I'm designing this for them to get a deeper concept of skills, infiltration, assassins, and actually putting ranks on diplomacy and bluff.

I was going to allow any class but full base attack bonus, including prestige. you could have a maximum of five levels in something with a full bab, but no more. Maybe allowing swashbuckler or ranger to be exceptions.

My questions to you (the gaming community) are:
1) Good/bad idea?
2) Character developments (what would be ideal for a party in this case?)
3) Challenges/quests (some good concepts/ideas for something I could challenge them with to make them think and the like)

Thank you for your gracious time, and hopefully you'll provide some awesome answers!

Tokiko Mima
2007-01-17, 04:02 PM
How will you deal with Clerics/Favored Ones using Divine Power'ed attacks to instantly acquire a full BAB?

The problem I see here stems from the fact that it's not that Full BAB classes have the ability to use Power Attack. The problem is that they don't have too many other more interesting options, and that causes them to use that combo infinitely. Maybe allow full BAB classes, but let them use the 3/4 progression, and give then some extra feats and/or class features to compensate?

JaronK
2007-01-17, 04:09 PM
Yeah, Druids and Clerics are fully able to do "kick in the door" style play with little problem.

Why not take it further? You can only be classes with 6+ skillpoints per level, base. This gives, roughly:

Cloistered Cleric

Ranger
Feat Rogues

Bards
Beguilers
Spellthieves

Ninjas
Rogues
Scouts

I may be missing a few, but none of those guys are kick in the door (though the cleric can still cast a few persistant buffs and do it, it's harder than normal). There's also a wide variety of PrCs, mostly found in Complete Adventurer.

Might be fun.

JaronK

Akennedy
2007-01-17, 04:16 PM
I suppose I'd let them, They could only do it so many times a day. What i mean by the power attack is along the lines of "hey look, a bad guy! Lets kill him!" as opposed to, "lets talk to him, not look like a threat, get some info that we can't see right before our eyes, then later assassinate him." I want to make them think of ways to looks behind whats happening right before there eyes. Like, if the BBEG knows they're doing something then he thwarts them, the PC's are like "How did he know know that! we are immune to divination and the like thanks to <some non-detection spell, they never use those, but besides the point>" Like, they could find documents on people spying on them for BBEG or some other criminal league or possibly a secret guild of who knows what!

So - in other words, i want the PC's to look behind the scenes and piles of loot and shiney longswords and axes, and use paper, ink, and the forgery skill!

Akennedy
2007-01-17, 04:25 PM
Jaronk - You're right, i can already see a dire bear ripping apart some nobles house - However, i might have to allow clerics because my players wouldn't have a healer otherwise, or make some variant of sorts, not 100% on that yet, completely open for suggestions though!
Although, some 4+ int mod people would probably have to be allowed, unfourtunately...

Missing Shoe
2007-01-17, 04:40 PM
Sounds like a good idea if all you play is "kick down the door" style. Maybe your players will find something new they like.

UMD allows them to use cure light wounds wands and the such. Potions also work. Clerics arent needed in every party

Saph
2007-01-17, 04:43 PM
It seems like a bad solution to me. You can still do the 'kill everything you see' approach with casters - in fact, they're even better at it at higher levels.

If you want to make your players use skill and subterfuge, then a better way to do it is:

a) Make a campaign setting where nothing BUT skill and subterfuge will work. E.g. a city-based campaign with a strong legal system where the watch will throw you in prison if you start fights.
b) Tell your players about it. Something like 'I don't want you to power attack everything anymore, so I'm making a setting where you can't - so make sure not to, or your characters will die'.

- Saph

Indon
2007-01-17, 04:47 PM
Personally, I would reorder the campaign such that they end up being made the pawns for bad guy after bad guy until they get the hint.

This works particularly best with paladins and clerics; it should only take a few cases of "oops, I got duped into killing another innocent!" to get them thinking even if they aren't skill monkeys.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-17, 05:05 PM
Sounds painfully like d20 modern.

Akennedy
2007-01-17, 05:11 PM
Missing_shoe - would you have any hooks or concepts that could make it fit together a bit, I've already thought of infiltrating a noble's complex with many guards on patrol, but i can't think of much else for things needing skill and the like... (traps, and the like already thought of too, mind you, when aren't they ;). Thank you for the advice! I'll need to substitute a lot of loot with wands of cure >_<

Saph - The casters could, however, with the skills and campaign base (mostly city/temple, enclosed or watched areas) they would have a hard time casting fireball without anyone noticing and causing everyone to get them. And casters have to still be able to do that to a certain extent. And to be honest, I'm still expecting some of them to say "i wanna be the tank" and be a ranger with a great-weapon (which is why im worried about allowing ranger), and still expecting them to use power attack, however, with the skills i'm prompting them to think of alturnatives as opposed to "I can do 63 damage maximum in one round! I'm Useful!" I've told them and they like the idea, but, again, worried about them useing power attack. I may disallow the feat? or disallow two handed weapons, or make them rare? Thank you for the criticism! Please let me know if you have more!

Indon - I was thinking along those lines now <have a campaign going now, where theres a (undead, lich, but appearingly normal, grey-ish tone skin however) drow whom they killed and found a strange rod with a button and when you pressed the button it would ressurect the BBEG, whom they killed because they thought he was the leader of a town-harrassing lizlardfolk, while he was hiding in secret. So, after a few quests and undecipherable books later, they found an old drow wizard named the same as the BBEG whom tried to block out the sun so the drow would rule the surface once again, and enslave the other races and use spells to create food/water etc etc.. This was a ritual though, and he and his apprentices almost completed it, but his apprentices were too weak, and disrupted the spell, killing all whom participated. The ingrediants to perform the ritual are the sword of kas, chromatic dragon orbs and other things that are easy/hard to find. So, they are looking for the ingrediants, they found out by reading the books, which is another quest in itself, requires an old librarian captured by "the emerald flame cult". So they are looking for the ingrediants and when they have them all, BBEG's going to show up in the night, when none of them have armor on, good spells prepared, or anything of the like, and he's going to go on a monologue about how foolish mortals are and steals his ingreadiants and disappears to his lair, which they dont know where it is. Whoa, now my fingers hurt.>
So, a little off topic there, but :P
How would I use clerics and pallies to my advantage? I sorta get your idea, but not 100% sure...

Akennedy
2007-01-17, 05:13 PM
Closet_Skeleton - I loathe d20 Modern with a passion, well, my dm's have always sucked for it, so, I imagine that doesn't help. I just want to get think thinking before they pull out a great sword of power attacking! <Doesn't exist, I'm aware :P>

Zincorium
2007-01-17, 05:32 PM
I suppose I'd let them, They could only do it so many times a day. What i mean by the power attack is along the lines of "hey look, a bad guy! Lets kill him!" as opposed to, "lets talk to him, not look like a threat, get some info that we can't see right before our eyes, then later assassinate him." I want to make them think of ways to looks behind whats happening right before there eyes. Like, if the BBEG knows they're doing something then he thwarts them, the PC's are like "How did he know know that! we are immune to divination and the like thanks to <some non-detection spell, they never use those, but besides the point>" Like, they could find documents on people spying on them for BBEG or some other criminal league or possibly a secret guild of who knows what!

So - in other words, i want the PC's to look behind the scenes and piles of loot and shiney longswords and axes, and use paper, ink, and the forgery skill!

Fact: you aren't going to change the Pc's style of play by restricting classes.

You can, however, talk to them about it, express that you'd have a lot more fun with a more story based and complex game, and leave the rules out of it. Just removing options without addressing the root problem that you have is going to leave you frustrated even further.

Jayabalard
2007-01-17, 06:42 PM
Don't make the encounters clear cut cases of good vs evil.
-You can have a BBEG who's hungry for power, but isn't evil; they have some scruples and are not going to just kill everyone who gets in thier way. Perhaps there are several factions, and the PCs are going to choose to work for one or the other.
-You can have the apparent BBEG be a person (or people) who are good but have been misled or who are being compelled. Don't give any overt clues about "Mr shadow" at the beginning

Present them with situations where straightforward force won't win.
-Give them missions where information gathering is the primary goal
-Get them mixed up in a military organization, where there will be too many poeple to just charge in to sitautions

Running a campaign like that is not going to be easy if you've got a party who keeps thier brain in the same scabbard as thier sword.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-17, 06:47 PM
personally, I think your issue is that you've got to come up with creative ways for your players so they can't just power attack everything. Build some assassins for them to fight (them being able to cast spider climb and invisibility coupled with sneak attack can be deadly). Or send creatures that fly at them. There are ways to make your PC's learn lessons, you just have to get creative. Or if all else fails, send something at them that will bash them into dust (or at least within an inch of their life).

Dausuul
2007-01-17, 07:13 PM
I suppose I'd let them, They could only do it so many times a day. What i mean by the power attack is along the lines of "hey look, a bad guy! Lets kill him!" as opposed to, "lets talk to him, not look like a threat, get some info that we can't see right before our eyes, then later assassinate him." I want to make them think of ways to looks behind whats happening right before there eyes. Like, if the BBEG knows they're doing something then he thwarts them, the PC's are like "How did he know know that! we are immune to divination and the like thanks to <some non-detection spell, they never use those, but besides the point>" Like, they could find documents on people spying on them for BBEG or some other criminal league or possibly a secret guild of who knows what!

So - in other words, i want the PC's to look behind the scenes and piles of loot and shiney longswords and axes, and use paper, ink, and the forgery skill!

I don't think restricting class choices is the way to go here. If you want to guide your players toward a more thoughtful style of play, a good way to do that is to present them with bad guys that are blatantly, obviously, massively too tough for them to take in a head-on fight. Great wyrm dragons. Pit fiends. Vampire lords that cast power word kill in their presence. Anything with a CR at least 15 higher than the party's level, where the players can look at it and know how tough it is. (That last bit is important; you're not trying to fake them out here, quite the reverse. You want them to know without a doubt that this guy is just too damn big for them to risk a fight.)

Of course, they may still draw their weapons and charge in swinging, confident that you wouldn't have put the bad guy in front of them if they couldn't beat him. If that happens, it's a good idea to have some nonlethal way for the bad guy to knock them all unconscious/immobilize them, take their stuff, and toss them out naked into the cold. (There should also be a reason why the bad guy would do this instead of just killing them all with his pinky finger.) That way they don't feel they were arbitrarily TPK'ed, and they'll have a real good hate on for that villain, which may inspire them to seek more creative ways of defeating him. And that in turn may open their eyes to a more involved and interesting style of play.

Do keep in mind, though, that if your players are diehard hack-and-slashers who just aren't interested in intrigue, all the clever tricks and gentle guiding in the world may not work; you'll just end up with bored, annoyed players. If that's the case, you may need to find another group to play with, or resign yourself to running kick-in-the-door style.

Indon
2007-01-17, 07:13 PM
How would I use clerics and pallies to my advantage? I sorta get your idea, but not 100% sure...

Because These (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm) Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm) get pretty expensive and time-consuming.

Paladins, in particular, can be hit with this, because their personal codes are pretty stringent.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-01-17, 07:28 PM
I'm in a campaign that doesn't have anyone with full BAB. A warlock (me), a wizard, a ninja and a cleric and it works out pretty well. Then again it's very roleplay oriented.

Akennedy
2007-01-17, 08:52 PM
Zin - You're plenty right! And I have talked to them however i don't see them changing their style. Would you recommend teaching one of them to DM, or letting them learn how to then allowing myself to play, and do the nitty-gritties?

Jayabalard - I like your style! I like those ideas - a lot. However, what if i got them in different organizations against each other? sound like a good hook? (Nice quote by the way :P)

Purple o'Doom - I don't wanna outright kill them, assassins w/invisible w/fly, omg. That would hurt a great deal, but i do like the concept. How could I make a less deadly, but challenging nonetheless encounter? PC classes? Wizards :D? Again - I wouldn't mind taking them to a sliver of their life and after them realizing, "We should've done..."

Dausuul - I enjoy the robbing them blind the throwing them naked to the cold. That would DEFINITLY make them hate the villan that much more. I've tried finding other groups in my area, but they are few and far between, i try to keep myself open to play any campaigns between friends that do come up. And for the love of god i don't wanna resign to kick-in-the-door style!! Thanks for the ideas and your genius!

Indon - Either I'm blind, or the players white-out'd those spells from my books. Thank you for curing my blindness!

Krimm - I was thinking along the lines of that but a whole lot more thievery, cunning, assassination and other guileful things.

Raool
2007-01-17, 09:23 PM
Why not just up the encounter levels a bit and they won't slam the door any more. After one or two of them dies at least.

Akennedy
2007-01-17, 10:15 PM
Well, if I made a campaign based on skill/cunning/extra thinking, I thought (note the past tense) it may turn on a few lights in my player's heads.
Also, I think a skillfull party would just be plain fun. I mean, imagin the possibilites! I just think it would involve a lot of thinking, riddles, cunning ans cleverness (and yes I am buying the complete scoundrel).
My normal reason for death of a PC
"Stupid Pc's Deserve to Die." - I live by it. Well, in dnd anyways :P

Raool
2007-01-17, 10:19 PM
That's how the last death in my campaign occured. They were too accustomed to the "slam the door" approach. Until the rogue missed a slay living trap by 1 and the fighter failed the fort save and got insta-killed. Now they're more careful, that and they made the rogue open the doors after searching them for traps.:smallbiggrin:

Akennedy
2007-01-17, 10:22 PM
Rofl! Poor poor fighter :P How do you think a Bestow curse trap would work, -6 to str anyone?

Zincorium
2007-01-18, 12:09 AM
Zin - You're plenty right! And I have talked to them however i don't see them changing their style. Would you recommend teaching one of them to DM, or letting them learn how to then allowing myself to play, and do the nitty-gritties?

Being a group with only one person who knows how to DM is a fairly annoying situation, I've been there. Essentially, ask one of them who knows the rules fairly well and is decently creative (basically the minimum qualifications for a good dm) and ask them if they'd want to run a game or two, just to test the waters, in the style that they and the other players enjoy. Then keep a low set of expectations for those sessions, relax, and have fun.

If everyone likes it, then that person can DM more often. Don't overload them at first by just turning over control, you are still the DM so obviously you're doing something right. If it doesn't work out, try to keep the person who stepped up to the task from feeling burned, DMing for the first time, or even the first time in a long while, is tough.

That said, if you do enjoy staying as the DM, pose more combatively tactical situations at them, more a set of advantages and disadvantages than obstacles. "We can do a lot of damage to those giants if we use this ballista first then close in" rather than "We can't kill the giants without this ballista". A lot of players will balk when they feel they're forced into a situation, but if you make an advantage obvious, they can feel cunning and tactical when they use it to good effect.

Akennedy
2007-01-18, 02:57 PM
Ohh, k, so make requirements (cant think of a better term to use) in order to weaken enemies to a defeatable state?
And I'll see what I can do for training a DM :P
Thank you!