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Triaxx
2007-01-17, 03:15 PM
It's generally accepted that the Great Club is the worst weapon, period. I don't have the exact analysis on hand, but the numbers are all correct. In an attempt to fix this problem, I propose the following.

Increase the damage for a medium size version to 1d12. This brings it up, but also close to the Great Axe. Increasing the Critical multiplier makes it virtually identical, except for the damage type. Instead I propose to increase the Critical Threat range to 19-20.

Deepblue706
2007-01-17, 03:27 PM
It's a dumb, clumsy weapon. Therefore, plain x2 is appropriate. 19-20/x2 is meant for fairly precise instruments, or at least, those with more precision than a log. x3 is meant for things that can just...really hurt. A Greataxe is imprecise, but get THAT through a weak spot in the armor...ouch. Clubs just kinda bash...and bash some more. I think it's fine the way it is - after all, not all weapons are meant to be equally powerful in D&D. It's just what's available and the style of the game.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-17, 03:33 PM
Make it 1d10/x4.

Indon
2007-01-17, 03:57 PM
I'm not aware of any bludgeoning weapon that has such a high critical multiplier; if I recall, all x4 weapons in the SRD are piercing, while high critical range weapons are generally slashing.

Rather, if I were to 'boost' the great club, I would give it a bonus to an appropriate combat maneuver, such as the whip has a bonus to disarming.

Great clubs feel like good Bull Rush or Sundering weapons to me, personally. I'd give the weapon a bonus to bull rush checks or sunder damage.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-17, 04:29 PM
x4 just represents that when it strikes a weak spot, it strikes hard.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-17, 06:05 PM
But it's not as good as a warhammer, maul, or Goliath Greathammer (these last two exotic). Hard to find a place for it really. Should it even be a martial weapon?

Orzel
2007-01-17, 06:24 PM
We always gave them a 10' range. It's only 8 lbs.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 06:44 PM
It should have just been dropped into the Simple Weapon category. By far the easiest fix and the most consistant.

Indon
2007-01-17, 07:00 PM
You know, looking over the other 2-h simple weapons, making the greatclub simple really does seem like a good choice.

Not to mention, it's basically a 2-h club, and clubs are simple weapons.

Triaxx
2007-01-17, 09:59 PM
I like the idea of a bonus to sunder. The problem is that larger size creatures can wield this one handed. And I have the sort of sadistic DM, who would send several of them to chase down the party and start sundering everything.

What purpose exactly, does a greatclub serve? It's not as useful as a spiked chain. It tends towards less damage, with shorter range. Similar problems when compared against Greatswords.

Maybe the use should be against punishing those two dare to enter AoO range? Give it a bonus against foes provoking AoO's. Perhaps a plus to hit, or +2 damage on a sucessful AoO. Or perhaps providing a bonus when Readied vs. Approach and charged? Because I imagine charging at an opponent, and getting hit with a greatclub headed the other way would seriously hurt.

Or perhaps a lower Non-Lethal damage factor? -2 instead of -4? Since it's already blunt, and two hands make it easier to control the swing than one.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 10:05 PM
Hell, there should be a Great Mace 1D12 x2 and that should be Simple, nevermind the Great Club.

Rebonack
2007-01-17, 10:36 PM
Make it a two handed simple weapon and increase it's damage die up to 1d12. Problem solved.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-17, 10:44 PM
Light it on fire and let it do 1d6 fire damage in addition to its bludgeoning damage!

That's more of what I was expecting to see from this thread anyway, given the title.

Triaxx
2007-01-18, 09:57 PM
It's occured to me that the simplest method is to change it's damage to 2d6/x2.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-01-18, 10:27 PM
We'll never get anywhere popcorning like this. Let's try to see what we all seem to agree on. Not alot of things to put on here. Hrm...There's been two archetypal fixes suggested: make it better, or sort it under simple weapons. Those who wish the latter can immediately do so and be done with the problem. The former will be a bit more difficult.

Now, I agree that the greatclub is a clumsy weapon that utterly destroys anything it manages to hit well. That could translate to an obscenely large critical modifier, but only on a natural 20. Maybe make it so that Improved Critical won't work with such a weapon, but that makes no sense realistically. I got it: keep it a martial weapon in one hand, simple weapon in two; one die of damage (I'm thinking d10) to keep the variation of clumsiness there, x4 crit multiplier AND take a page from the bastard sword's book. To use it one handed requires a strength of 15 (high, but fair considering how difficult it is to wield a big chunk of wood for several attacks in six seconds) or incur a -4 penalty on all attack rolls.
whattaya guys think?

Rebonack
2007-01-19, 01:25 AM
That would make it overpowered for a simple two handed weapon and positively broken for a one handed martial weapon.

Compare it to the bastard sword: 1d10 19-20/x2 and needs a feat to be wielded one handed.

Great Club: 1d10 x4 and needs no feat to be wielded one handed. It's better than the bastard sword all on its own. No feat requirement would make it even worse.

Make it a martial two handed weapon with 1d10 x4 or a simple two handed weapon with 1d10 x3.

A two handed simple weapon with 2d4 x3 and no cost (it's just a big stick) would work too.

Jack_of_Spades
2007-01-19, 02:42 AM
I like the idea of lighting it on fire to add 1d6 fire damage.
On that note...

Coat it with the filling from a tanglefoot bag and gain a +2 to disarm checks.

Smash it on some caltrops so they stick out and deal piercing damage as well.

Get bands of different metals wrapped around the head to bypass damage reduction for different types. Clubs are the only weapons I could imagine this working for, and it helps balance them with spears and swords.

Use sovereign glue to attach Thunderstones to the head so you can stun your opponents.

Attach a sling like thing to the top so you can hurl alchemist's fire and other alchemical items with it.

Be a rogue. Put secret compartments along it and put daggers and a rapier inside. Quick draw them to confuse opponents when you draw them instead of a stick.

It's really the sheathe for your greatsword.


This is fun. :D

Triaxx
2007-01-19, 08:30 AM
Greatclubs are also eligible for my Crimson Thorns enhancement. (+1d4)

I don't like the thought of martial as one handed. Make it two handed martial, and Exotic one handed. I imagine you'd need some pretty fancy footwork to make it work with only one hand. It's hard to bring yourself around to defend if you've just sent a massive club whirling through space. Perhaps it should provoke an AoO when you swing it around.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-19, 08:57 AM
Wield it two-handed, one end in each hand, and break it over your enemy's head. That would be fun.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-19, 11:11 AM
Hey, the idea of adding stuff to a base weapon is neat.
How about the stats are kept the same, but you can customize!

BOARD WITH A NAIL IN IT:
You deal an additional 1d4 piercing by affixing a nail or caltrop to the club.
METAL BANDS
A ring of metal along the head of the club allows you to bypass material-related DR with the material. Can be swapped out.
AFLAME:
Can deal additional 1d6 fire, acts as a torch, but is irreversibly destroyed after ten minutes. In addition, wielding it deals 1 damage per turn.

Jack_of_Spades
2007-01-19, 11:58 AM
Put glue on the handle so you can't be disarmed and burn it when you're done.

Coat the tip with that stuff that's on matches so you can frighten primitive beings.

Get it made out of darkwood. Put metal bands around the head. Coat it in oil. Light it on fire. You bypass DR and burn them.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-19, 12:00 PM
Get it made out of darkwood. Put metal bands around the head. Coat it in oil. Light it on fire. You bypass DR and burn them.

BEST. CLUB. EVER!!

Peregrine
2007-01-19, 12:30 PM
I don't like the thought of martial as one handed. Make it two handed martial, and Exotic one handed. I imagine you'd need some pretty fancy footwork to make it work with only one hand.

I see no reason why it can't be simple two-handed and exotic one-handed. All this does, compared to simple two-handed/martial one-handed, is remove it from the list for 'proficient with all martial weapons' classes, while still keeping the well-suggested improvement that is making the current greatclub a simple weapon. Anybody not automatically proficient in its one-handed form still needs exactly one feat to become proficient, but exotic fits the flavour better than martial.

Matthew
2007-01-19, 12:35 PM
Absolutely. It could quite easily be [Simple Two Handed 1D10 x2] and [Exotic One Handed] or [Simple Two Handed 1D8 x3] and [Exotic One Handed]. Making it [Simple Two Handed 1D10 x3] would be too much, if it were going to be allowed to be used One Handed Exotic.

Personally, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be a Two Handed Simple Weapon 1D10 x2. No real reason to allow it to be used One Handed.

ampcptlogic
2007-01-19, 12:36 PM
I like the idea of lighting it on fire to add 1d6 fire damage.
On that note...

Attach a sling like thing to the top so you can hurl alchemist's fire and other alchemical items with it.

This is fun. :D

Make it a hoopak?

Egneil
2007-01-19, 12:56 PM
i vote for customizing it, i mean it keeps it balanced and more useful that way

Triaxx
2007-01-19, 06:31 PM
We could always go with 2d6 20x4, and finnessable. Of course, then it would require Exotic proficiency to use at all.

Jack_of_Spades
2007-01-19, 07:06 PM
We could always go with 2d6 20x4, and finnessable. Of course, then it would require Exotic proficiency to use at all.

WHAT!? Finesse with the greatclub is crazy!

Matthew
2007-01-19, 07:19 PM
Anything but two handed bashing with a Great Club is crazy, but we seem to be exploring ways of making it a more attractive choice...

Fizban
2007-01-19, 07:59 PM
Just make it a simple weapon, that's all it really needs. Most of this "customizing" stuff could be done with a lot of weapons, most with any sort of bludgeoning weapon.

For customizing...I'd say:
Giant spikes: adds 5gp to the initial cost of 0, club deals all piercing damage (the spikes are too long for you to hit with the wood). Weighs 5lbs more.
Metal bands: weapon is now "made" out of the banded material. Adds to cost as a two-handed 10gp weapon (cost matters for cold iron and alchemical silver). Also weighs 5lbs more.

Neither of those can be dealt with on the fly, but they could be altered by re-crafting the weapon with appropriate tools and craft checks.

Triaxx
2007-01-20, 07:47 AM
Sorry, I was exaggerating.

Fizban, I like those ideas. A simple method would be to simply introduce two variations of the weapon. A Spiked Great Club dealing 1d10+2 piercing, and a Banded Club dealing 1d12.

Matthew
2007-01-20, 07:57 AM
Wouldn't a Banded Great Club and a Spiked Great Club be better described as a Great Morning Star and Great Mace respectively?

magic8BALL
2007-01-20, 08:28 AM
I think I'll throw in my 2cp with yet another new suggestion:

Greatclub (exotic one handed, see text)
This soild bit of wood with miminal crafting and a bit of a handle is a favourite of those out to show off the strength to weild a big weapon. Mighty warriors have been known to have spikes, or bands of metal - sometimes even both - added to their greatclubs to increase their potency in melee.
A greatclub is to hard to weild in one hand without extended practice; thus, it is an exotic weapon. Anyone can weild a greatclub in two hands as a simple weapon, but see below.
In addition, a masterworked greatclub may have spikes, bands or both spikes and bands added to it, with the following consequences:

- If either of these enhancements are added, treat as a two handed simple weapon, a one handed martial weapon, or a handed exotic weapon, one size catagory larger.
- If both of these enhancements are added, treat as a two handed martial weapon, or a one handed exotic weapon, one size catagory larger.

These enhancement do not allow keen effects to be applied to the greatclub, nor can they be enhanced as weapons in their own right.

Greatclub (medium*): 1d10 bludgeoning. Crit 20/x2. Rang Inc: 10ft. Cost: 5gp. Weight 8lbs. Craft DC 12

- Spikes: +1d3 piercing. Crit 19-20/x2. Rang Inc: -5ft. Cost: +30gp. Weight +2 lbs. Craft DC +3

- Bands: +1d3 bludgeoning. Crit 20/x3. Rang Inc: -5ft. Cost: +20gp. Weight +5 lbs. Craft DC +3

- Spikes and Bands: +1d3 piercing, +1d3 bludgeoning. Rang Inc: -10ft .Crit 19-20/x3. Cost +100gp. Weight +8lbs. Craft DC +10

*Damage values for:
- small gratclubs: 1d8, +1d2.
- large greatclubs: 2d8, +1d4.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Balanced? You like? Too much?

Triaxx
2007-01-20, 01:18 PM
Fantastic. My Barbarian is going to have a new favorite weapon.

Jack_of_Spades
2007-01-20, 08:19 PM
I don't see why bands would add extra damage. I'd say it just bypasses aplicable damage reduction without penalties. A club is a club if it's metal or wood.

This has made me realize that weapons can easily be made stronger with some modifications. I want to have a mace to put thunderstones in now.

Triaxx
2007-01-21, 07:32 AM
It's the increase in weight that's afforded by the iron.

magic8BALL
2007-01-21, 11:38 PM
Also, having a 1/2 inch think band of iron around a lump of wood wood just hurt more than the wood by itself, if only for the added protusions...

"Gee! That wood sure hurt, but you can really see where the bands of iron left a mark!"

MagFlare
2007-01-22, 02:33 AM
I don't see any need to spiff up the greatclub, and certainly not with increased critical multipliers or anything like that. I think its advantage is its ubiquity - pull a sturdy branch off a tree, wrap a bit of cloth around one end, and there you go. You're now armed.

It really ought to be a simple weapon, though. "Hitting stuff with a big stick" doesn't strike me as the sort of thing you'd need a full three credit hour course in.

Dark Dork
2007-01-22, 12:55 PM
I think its advantage is its ubiquity - pull a sturdy branch off a tree, wrap a bit of cloth around one end, and there you go. You're now armed.

I agree! well, not neccesarily about the ubiquity part since I don't know what that means. But the stuff you said afterwards made sense.

The suggestion of a x3 or even x4 crit modifier is silly. Sure, if you hit someone in the side of the head with a log, he'd be more than just a little dazed.

But at a greataxe at x3 with the same power and positioning would take a sizeable chunk away and a dire pick at x4, well, that doesn't bare thinking about. *squelch*

Matthew
2007-01-22, 06:16 PM
I have to agree with these sentiments, but it is clear the Triaxx is looking for something more powerful or innovative than that laudable and often suggested solution.

Triaxx
2007-01-22, 10:19 PM
Exactly. Innovative is the word. One solution I saw was to make it possible to wield one handed if the character has 22 strength. The problem, is that a half-orc can acheive that at level eight. I had a group member mowing paths through enemies at level eight because he was dual wielding great clubs. And with Combat Reflexes, nothing could close to do damage unless it was wielding a reach weapon. Which meant it wasn't fun for the rest of us. (He met his match against a Blue Dragon.)

I was looking for something that would make it viable, without sending it over powered.

Indon
2007-01-22, 10:52 PM
I was looking for something that would make it viable, without sending it over powered.

If you're going for viability-through-innovation, I'd definitely say go with my earlier recommendation to make it better at Sundering. Just don't give it such a huge bonus, +2 is par for the course for weapons. I'd give the plus to sunder damage, rather than to-hit, as it's a 2-handed weapon and already gets +4 to opposed sunder rolls by virtue of that.

As an aside, if a 2-handed weapon is wielded in 1 hand, does it get the 2-hander bonus to sundering?

Also, I'd give the weapon 20 hp, as much as 2 inches of thick wood.

Fizban
2007-01-23, 01:22 AM
Well, if you make it a martial version of the Goliath Greathammer, it'd deal 1d8 or 1d10 (depending on your view), x4 crit, and +2 sundering damage.

Triaxx
2007-01-23, 09:13 AM
I like that idea.