Laurin fighting for scraps, resentful of elves? [Archive]

Olinser

2013-12-19, 06:21 PM

ZMiles

2013-12-19, 06:22 PM

Laurin seems to want to find excuses to rationalize her evil acts. She mentioned earlier that she only does "this thing we do" (the tripartite empire scheme) to provide for her daughter. Here, I think she's also trying to justify her attack on V (which she probably knows is pointless from a strategic standpoint) by arguing that the elves are immoral and so presumably deserve it.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-19, 06:23 PM

I mean, yes, the continent is a desert. But up until now, everyone on Team Tarquin seemed to me quite content with plundering it.
Laurin's little speech in this strip is actually one of the first bits of evidence we've had that the Elves are actually a force to be reckoned with rather than a hollowed-out power getting by on prestige. Laurin is the first character in the comic who has actually expressed both the will to conquer the Elven lands and who has the personal power and military force necessary to try. With the resources at her command she probably has decent intelligence as to their actual capabilities. If she wanted a shot at the Elves, she could take it, but she hasn't.

Keltest

2013-12-19, 06:26 PM

We can't see her ears. She may be an Elf of some variety herself. Given her dark skin, its legitimately possible she may be some kind of Drow half-breed, which would certainly fuel her hatred of forest elves.

Alternately, while she certainly lives in a desert NOW, who knows where she grew up. Tarquin was certainly on the Eastern continent at some point with Elan's mother.

Weve seen dark skinned humans though (im looking at you Roy) so its not any more likely than shes just bitter about living in a wasteland. Besides which, racism and bitterness are fueled by upbringing and experience, not the races of your parents.

JHShadon

2013-12-19, 06:34 PM

She mentioned earlier that she only does "this thing we do" (the tripartite empire scheme) to provide for her daughter.

Recently I've had the feeling that she doesn't like the scheme because she simply hates politics, not because of morality.

Gift Jeraff

2013-12-19, 06:36 PM

I dunno. We've spent a few hundred strips on this continent and this is the first time I've seen anyone other than Belkar be resentful of an elf. It feels like something new.

Pompey (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html) hates them.

Keltest

2013-12-19, 06:42 PM

Pompey (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html) hates them.

Pompey is a plot device, not a REAL character, he doesn't count. Silly.

in all seriousness though, he at least kind of has an explanation.

Taelas

2013-12-19, 06:44 PM

Pompey (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html) hates them.

I believe goodyarn was referring to people on the Western Continent. Pompey lives somewhere in the North.

Soullessknife

2013-12-19, 08:48 PM

Cartographer Chick explains it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html)

Kish

2013-12-19, 09:04 PM

I'm curious about the bitterness of Laurin's patter during the caster fight (#935). How the elves live "up there in a lush forest while the rest of us are fighting for scraps." How V's respect for Laurin's mind is false respect (when it seemed to me to be genuine).

I mean, yes, the continent is a desert. But up until now, everyone on Team Tarquin seemed to me quite content with plundering it.

Anyone know what's behind all that, or is it maybe still to be revealed?
Racism and hypocrisy. You expected anything less from a member of the Laurinear Guild?

Using more words, Tarquin revels in being a card-carrying villain, even while claiming to be Above the Limited and Unrealistic Alignment System. Malack considered himself nothing more, and nothing less, than a good and faithful servant. Miron, from what little we've seen of him, might care only for his own greed, and Jacinda might be outright axe crazy. But Laurin's a rationalizer; she "does this thing we do," she says delicately, so that her daughter, who she could long ago have teleported to somewhere far away where she could have a life of grotesque luxury without anyone needing to suffer for it since HER MOTHER IS A BORDERLINE-EPIC PSION, can have a good life. So...we find out that Laurin blames an elf she's never met for forcing, forcing I say, her to do all those nasty things because...s/he is an elf. This is my surprised face.

Ridureyu

2013-12-19, 09:04 PM

Yeah, the cartographer explained it all pretty well.

Clove

2013-12-19, 09:06 PM

Keltest

2013-12-19, 09:19 PM

Ah, so according to Cartographer Chick the elven attitude is, "Who cares if they kill each other, so long as they stay in their own neighborhood." This comic is more realistic than many stories in some ways.

The fact that there is about 0 tactical value to the land theyre fighting over if you already have some probably helps as well. the aptly named Goaway mountains makes a nice barrier against armies trying to invade from the south part of the continent, and Elven magic users can just fireball any ships that try to invade their territory. Anything that survives that will have to fight for every inch in the elves home base.

Yes, ive had to think about these things for my own Campaigns.

Ridureyu

2013-12-19, 09:26 PM

"We're elves. We're the only real people, anyway."

Clistenes

2013-12-19, 09:29 PM

Well, looking at it coldly...why should the elves allow humans to migrate to their country? Humans in real life are quite nasty, but in the this fantasy world humans are all either religious fanatics or a bunch of psychos ruled by people not unlike rwuandan or somalian warlords, and even human heroes think that seeking around people to kill and loot or breaking and looting the homes of their own allies are perfectly normal behaviours. They are in many aspects as bad as gnolls or orcs.

Look at the society of the Southern Continent's humans: They are all slaves except the group of warlords that kill each other for the right to be masters...would you allow those people to enter your country?

I usually dislike elves as portrayed in D&D; they rarely act like the "good race" they are supposed to be, but I haven't seen anything that could make me think the elves from tOotS's world aren't good people.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-19, 09:32 PM

I usually dislike elves as portrayed in D&D; they rarely act like the "good race" they are supposed to be, but I haven't seen anything that could make me think the elves from tOotS's world aren't good people.
Nothing, you say? Not throwing your ward out on the street and leaving them homeless, trading in souls with fiends, committing mass murder, or throwing prisoners off rooftops because of their race?

Clistenes

2013-12-19, 09:35 PM

Nothing, you say? Not throwing your ward out on the street and leaving them homeless, trading in souls with fiends, committing mass murder, or throwing prisoners off rooftops because of their race?

1.-V's master did that for her/his own good, so (s)he would start gaining xp.
2.-V did that to save her/his children.
3.-OK, that was quite nasty. But the humans approved of it, except the paladin, who wasn't told about it.

Keltest

2013-12-19, 09:41 PM

1.-V's master did that for her/his own good, so (s)he would start gaining xp.
2.-V did that to save her/his children.
3.-OK, that was quite nasty. But the humans approved of it, except the paladin, who wasn't told about it.

As far as the poor plummeting hobgoblin, what could possibly motivate them to take that risk? Theyre an underground movement. a spy would get them killed.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-19, 09:42 PM

1.-V's master did that for her/his own good, so (s)he would start gaining xp.
2.-V did that to save her/his children.
3.-OK, that was quite nasty. But the humans approved of it, except the paladin, who wasn't told about it.
There's a comment by the Giant which lays out how elves are not a "good race" in his world, but I can't find it in the Index. I'll keep looking, but if someone finds it first I'd appreciate it if they'd post it.

EDIT: found it! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15919361&postcount=24)

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-19, 09:48 PM

Cartographer Chick explains it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html)

Racism and hypocrisy. You expected anything less from a member of the Laurinear Guild?

Using more words, Tarquin revels in being a card-carrying villain, even while claiming to be Above the Limited and Unrealistic Alignment System. Malack considered himself nothing more, and nothing less, than a good and faithful servant. Miron, from what little we've seen of him, might care only for his own greed, and Jacinda might be outright axe crazy. But Laurin's a rationalizer; she "does this thing we do," she says delicately, so that her daughter, who she could long ago have teleported to somewhere far away where she could have a life of grotesque luxury without anyone needing to suffer for it since HER MOTHER IS A BORDERLINE-EPIC PSION, can have a good life. So...we find out that Laurin blames an elf she's never met for forcing, forcing I say, her to do all those nasty things because...s/he is an elf. This is my surprised face.

As SoulLessKnife said, the Cartographer explained where the Elves fit into the Western Continent's geopolitics, but Kish is correct that Laurin is using this as one of many rationalizations for her Evil actions. A Good Aligned character as powerful as Laurin who wanted to make a difference for Hannah (and Hannah's children) would be more interested in promoting trade relations with the Elves, and maybe convincing them to ultimately allow Humans and Lizardfolk to emigrate to the Elven Homelands, at least on a trial period (say fifty years, just to see if the Elves like it or not?). She also has the psionic means to help Tarquin conquer the Elves, or to relocate Hannah to Cliffport (or even to Sigil, which is probably ten times safer than the Empire of Sweat, even with the Razorvine, Slaadi, and the chances of annoying the Lady of Pain and getting flayed on the streets). In stead Laurin comes up with reasons to continue with Team Tarquin's nefarious plans.

Look at the society of the Southern Western Continent's humans: They are all slaves except the group of warlords that kill each other for the right to be masters...would you allow those people to enter your country?

Fixed that for you. The Southern Continent is where Azure City (now Gobbotopia) is located.

Ridureyu

2013-12-19, 09:54 PM

Well, looking at it coldly...why should the elves allow humans to migrate to their country? Humans in real life are quite nasty,

This is treading dangerously close to real-life politics/racial arguments here. Not a good direction for the thread to go.

So, on a better topic... even if Laurin's rationalization for why elves are bad is right, it doesn't make her good. If the elves opened their borders like everybody else, Laurin wouldn't bat an eye in killing as many as needed to take and hold power. Remember, she is part of the reason why the other races all scrape for meager resources.

Amphiox

2013-12-19, 09:56 PM

Laurin's little speech in this strip is actually one of the first bits of evidence we've had that the Elves are actually a force to be reckoned with rather than a hollowed-out power getting by on prestige. Laurin is the first character in the comic who has actually expressed both the will to conquer the Elven lands and who has the personal power and military force necessary to try. With the resources at her command she probably has decent intelligence as to their actual capabilities. If she wanted a shot at the Elves, she could take it, but she hasn't.

I wonder how the terrain advantage of that big honking mountain range plays out in a D&D setting where once can cast flight spells and summon flying monsters.

It's possible the elves aren't a world power. They could be more like Switzerland, fortified up in an unpenetrable set of natural barriers. That might make someone like Laurin even more resentful, since it could be said that the Elves didn't even earn their national security, they were just lucky to have found themselves in such an easily defensible land.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-19, 09:59 PM

It's possible the elves aren't a world power.
It's certain that the elves aren't a world power. A world power, by definition, is able to project a decisive force anywhere in the world. The Elves, just like anyone with access to teleportation magic, can meet the "anywhere in the world" part. But a decisive force? As we saw in Azure City, twelve people does not a decisive force make.

Ridureyu

2013-12-19, 10:01 PM

With flight spells really only available to characters with levels or people who know casters... the terrain is probably still an advantage.

veti

2013-12-19, 10:03 PM

It's certain that the elves aren't a world power. A world power, by definition, is able to project a decisive force anywhere in the world. The Elves, just like anyone with access to teleportation magic, can meet the "anywhere in the world" part. But a decisive force? As we saw in Azure City, twelve people does not a decisive force make.

You're saying a world power, by definition, can never be defeated, even locally?

Edit: from the elves' point of view, the problem with allowing humans to settle in their lands is that humans are so short-lived and fast-breeding. You start off with a harmless little community of about 50 people, occupying a small village, and before you know it there's a city of 5000, cultivating a hinterland that's a significant chunk of your land (that is to say, the untamed forest that was previously free for "everyone" to hunt and play in). You can quite understand them wanting to keep their little enclave free from that sort of encroachment.

It's the same argument, incidentally, that could reasonably be used by humans against goblins...

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-19, 10:07 PM

You're saying a world power, by definition, can never be defeated, even locally?
No, and I don't know where you're getting that out of my post. A world power must have the capacity to win on any ground, at home or abroad. It must have the capacity to get enough forces to enforce its will at the point of decision, which could be anywhere in the world. The Elves? Can't do that.

veti

2013-12-19, 10:12 PM

No, and I don't know where you're getting that out of my post. A world power must have the capacity to win on any ground, at home or abroad. It must have the capacity to get enough forces to enforce its will at the point of decision, which could be anywhere in the world. The Elves? Can't do that.

If that's true, then there can only ever be one World Power in a world (because if two compete, then one, by definition, has to lose, and again by your definition, that means they're not a world power). And we simply don't know whether the elves are it or not.

"Can't" do that? We don't know that. All we know is that they haven't done it. Could just mean they underestimated Team Evil, and only sent a couple of teams of mid-level operatives, instead of one of their numerous high-level teams that would have creamed Redcloak.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-19, 10:21 PM

If that's true, then there can only ever be one World Power in a world (because if two compete, then one, by definition, has to lose, and again by your definition, that means they're not a world power). And we simply don't know whether the elves are it or not.
"Lose" is a word you're inserting into my argument. I never uttered it. Of course world powers can lose battles or wars. But they have to be able to get to the battles and wars before they can lose them. They have to be able to project power before they can contest power. And of course there can be more than one power capable of getting its forces wherever they need to be anywhere in the world. This is a thing that occurs in the world, and it would be the height of silliness to deny it.

Everything we've seen suggests that the Elves' power projection capability is shrinking, rather than growing. This isn't the first time I've laid out the argument for this, so have a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15922561&postcount=57) and reply to the points raised therein if you like.

"Can't" do that? We don't know that. All we know is that they haven't done it. Could just mean they underestimated Team Evil, and only sent a couple of teams of mid-level operatives, instead of one of their numerous high-level teams that would have creamed Redcloak.
Odd that they would be the only ones out of all the people the Azurites contacted that underestimated Team Evil. Everyone else seemed pants-fillingly terrified of them. Odd that these "high-level teams" never appeared in the defense of Lirian's Glade (Lirian's forces were her own private paramilitary, not affiliated with Elven Command), and those that were due to arrive were apparently so low-level they couldn't teleport.

ReaderAt2046

2013-12-19, 10:22 PM

No, and I don't know where you're getting that out of my post. A world power must have the capacity to win on any ground, at home or abroad. It must have the capacity to get enough forces to enforce its will at the point of decision, which could be anywhere in the world. The Elves? Can't do that.

Oh, I'm sure they could. They just don't think a little thing like the destruction of a city and the genocide/enslavement of several hundred thousand humans is worth doing much of anything about.

On a different note, I would argue that Laurin's anger at elves is not just a rationalization, in the same sense that Redcloak's anger at the Azurites is not just a rationalization. In both cases, there is a genuine cause for grievance, though in neither case does that grievance justify the actions actually taken to redress it.

bguy

2013-12-19, 10:47 PM

veti

2013-12-19, 10:48 PM

"Lose" is a word you're inserting into my argument. I never uttered it.

Perhaps it would be where you said:

A world power must have the capacity to win on any ground, at home or abroad. It must have the capacity to get enough forces to enforce its will at the point of decision, which could be anywhere in the world.

If you send forces, and they get defeated, then it follows (from the definition of "enough") that you didn't send "enough" forces. Then one of two things must be true: either you exercised the best of your capacity and got defeated anyway (ergo, not a world power), or you didn't exercise the best of your capacity. Maybe you miscalculated the force required, or maybe there was some good strategic reason for holding back.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-19, 10:51 PM

or you didn't exercise the best of your capacity. Maybe you miscalculated the force required
Yes, and this happens all the time. In the case of the Elves, however, they were able to send more than one team, as demonstrated by the fact that they sent more than one team. But they stopped at two. So either they utterly failed to send more forces when they could have, or they couldn't spare any more.

Far

2013-12-19, 10:57 PM

But Laurin's a rationalizer; she "does this thing we do," she says delicately, so that her daughter, who she could long ago have teleported to somewhere far away where she could have a life of grotesque luxury without anyone needing to suffer for it since HER MOTHER IS A BORDERLINE-EPIC PSION, can have a good life.

In stead Laurin comes up with reasons to continue with Team Tarquin's nefarious plans.

Laurin Shattersmith: the Walter White of OotsWorld.

rs2excelsior

2013-12-19, 11:47 PM

If that's true, then there can only ever be one World Power in a world (because if two compete, then one, by definition, has to lose, and again by your definition, that means they're not a world power). And we simply don't know whether the elves are it or not.

"Can't" do that? We don't know that. All we know is that they haven't done it. Could just mean they underestimated Team Evil, and only sent a couple of teams of mid-level operatives, instead of one of their numerous high-level teams that would have creamed Redcloak.

You seem to be confusing the terms "decisive" and "unbeatable." The former means a force large enough to influence a battle, campaign, or war. The latter does not exist. The US Army currently has something like ten divisions, plus the capability to call up National Guard formations. That kind of power is, in anyone's reckoning, significant. Its commitment to a given war effort would considerably alter the strategic picture. It is far from inconceivable, however, that through competing requirements, clever employment of enemy forces, failures of communication or coordination, mismanagement, or simply the fog of war, that even the full power of the US military could be defeated. That would not mean that the US is no longer a world power, nor would a victory over an opponent necessarily knock the defeated power out of world power status.

Regarding the Elves in OOTS and the Team Peregrine operation, there are several possibilities:
1) The Elves did not have the resources to send more than they did.
2) The Elves could have sent more, but their assets were committed to other, higher-priority theaters.
3) The Elves could have sent more, but did not due to internal reasons, such as not risking the lives of Elven warriors in a venture that is not deemed important.

The first would imply the Elves are not a world power. The latter two implies they are. I don't think there's sufficient evidence from the comic to determine which it is, though the first seems to fit best to me.

DeadMG

2013-12-20, 12:08 AM

You don't know that the Elves can't do that.

There are only two in-comic times that the Elves have been shown to project military force.

The first was the defence of Lirian's Gate. which was a fine success until the epic lich sorcerer came out of nowhere. Even then, we don't know exactly what resources the Elves committed to it's defence. Given the highly weakened state of the goblins pre-Xykon, it's not likely the Elves exactly stationed their entire army there, especially given the need for secrecy about the Gates. If they were common knowledge in Elven lands, Vaarsuvius would have known about it.

The second was a tiny strike force designed to aid the Azure City resistance and recon the situation. And they achieved that goal- they learned about Redcloak and what he can do, and about the goblins occupying the city, and the ACR was fairly effective.

The Elves have never been shown to even attempt to project large-scale military force. We have virtually no idea what their armies look like. It's perfectly possible that they could return to Azure City in force now that Redcloak and Xykon have departed and smash Gobbotopia to bits.

goodyarn

2013-12-20, 12:38 AM

Cartographer Chick explains it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html)

Ah! Totally forgot about that. Thank you!

Forikroder

2013-12-20, 12:40 AM

Gift Jeraff

2013-12-20, 12:47 AM

Speaking of the elves' relationship with the desert nations, I can't help but wonder what consequences may arise from Z impersonating (and possibly killing/replacing) an ambassador from Elven Lands, plus Tarquin's gift baskets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html) sent to the drow hierarchy.

GrayGriffin

2013-12-20, 12:48 AM

We can't see her ears. She may be an Elf of some variety herself. Given her dark skin, its legitimately possible she may be some kind of Drow half-breed, which would certainly fuel her hatred of forest elves.

Alternately, while she certainly lives in a desert NOW, who knows where she grew up. Tarquin was certainly on the Eastern continent at some point with Elan's mother.

What. What. WHAT? You see someone with dark skin and the first thing you think is that they must apparently be part-drow? Because apparently dark-skinned humans aren't a thing that exists?

Not to mention that all the drow shown in the comic have gray skin, not the brown kind of "dark."

Ridureyu

2013-12-20, 12:54 AM

OH HEY LOOK, A DISTRACTING NON-RACIALLY CHARGED PUPPY!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y185/Ridureyu/F83315EE-443F-4291-8889-3256F0F4F8A1.jpg

THAT'S A KITTEN.

jogiff

2013-12-20, 01:38 AM

What. What. WHAT? You see someone with dark skin and the first thing you think is that they must apparently be part-drow? Because apparently dark-skinned humans aren't a thing that exists?

Not to mention that all the drow shown in the comic have gray skin, not the brown kind of "dark."

He said "Given her dark skin, its legitimately possible she may be some kind of Drow half-breed"

He didn't say "the only legitimate possibility is that she is some kind of Drow half-breed"

Considering that we know that one of her old friends (the only one who we know anything about) has sought an alliance with the Drow and speaks Drow sign language it's not an unreasonable hypothesis.

Rodin

2013-12-20, 01:46 AM

Being a superpower implies interest. You become a superpower by dominating trade, diplomacy revolves around you and whatever other superpowers there are, etc.

There's no indication that the Elves are doing any of that. From how few Elves we've seen outside the Elven lands (there's V, Team Peregrine, and...um...) there's little to no signs of Elves interacting with the outside world at all. Heck, the Elves don't even have an ambassador to the nations on the Western continent - the one we saw was Z in disguise.

The Elves have pretty much been doing what Elves always do in fantasy stories - sit in their forests stargazing while the villains are working on taking over the world, only pausing to shoot any uppity "lesser races" that dare enter their forests. Also known as "why I can't stand Elves".

GrayGriffin

2013-12-20, 02:12 AM

He said "Given her dark skin, its legitimately possible she may be some kind of Drow half-breed"

He didn't say "the only legitimate possibility is that she is some kind of Drow half-breed"

Considering that we know that one of her old friends (the only one who we know anything about) has sought an alliance with the Drow and speaks Drow sign language it's not an unreasonable hypothesis.

Read the second part of my post, in which I also mention that Drow are "dark" in the "gray skin" sense, not "shades of brown" sense.

WindStruck

2013-12-20, 02:50 AM

It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if, in fact, it was the elves who properly maintained their lands properly and nurtured it. Either that or they use magic to keep their lands fertile...

Ridureyu

2013-12-20, 02:53 AM

Or the Elven lands exist because of a rain shadow formed by the mountains, thus separating desert from non-desert terrain.

Taelas

2013-12-20, 05:30 AM

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-20, 08:53 AM

The first was the defence of Lirian's Gate. which was a fine success until the epic lich sorcerer came out of nowhere. Even then, we don't know exactly what resources the Elves committed to it's defence. Given the highly weakened state of the goblins pre-Xykon, it's not likely the Elves exactly stationed their entire army there, especially given the need for secrecy about the Gates. If they were common knowledge in Elven lands, Vaarsuvius would have known about it.
You seem to be confusing Lirian's own private army with the forces at the disposal of Elven Command. The former was shown on-panel. The latter were alluded to as "reinforcements", but they never showed.

There's no indication that the Elves are doing any of that. From how few Elves we've seen outside the Elven lands (there's V, Team Peregrine, and...um...) there's little to no signs of Elves interacting with the outside world at all.
The Greysky Thieves Guild and Samantha's bandit clan each had a noticeable Elven presence. Though I strongly suspect these were free individuals and not at the disposal of Elven Command.

:smallconfused:

That post has absolutely nothing which supports the argument that elves are not a Good race. It doesn't weigh in on the issue one way or the other. What he said is that the elves are not interested in the world beyond their own borders unless someone gives them a reason to be. They are not Good watchdogs looking out for the rest of the world. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are not Good.
There has been one Good-aligned power shown in the story: Azure City. What do they do? They dispose of their military and diplomatic strength in such a way as to advance Good in the world (as they see it; they may not be right). We have been shown more Evil powers than Good powers (the Empire of Blood, Gobbotopia), but what do they do? They dispose of their military and diplomatic strength in such a way as to advance the cause of Evil in the world, by conquering nations and shaping the societies they rule towards Evil. The Elves, meanwhile, are isolationist and self-interested, and don't seem to advance any cause whatsoever. This seems to map more closely to Neutrality than anything else.

Kish

2013-12-20, 09:00 AM

Rich did make a post that indicated he doesn't believe in treating elves as a Good Race though.

It was here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16153483&postcount=31).

(No, I didn't accidentally link a different post than I meant to.)

Emanick

2013-12-20, 09:00 AM

You seem to be confusing Lirian's own private army with the forces at the disposal of Elven Command. The former was shown on-panel. The latter were alluded to as "reinforcements", but they never showed.

The Greysky Thieves Guild and Samantha's bandit clan each had a noticeable Elven presence. Though I strongly suspect these were free individuals and not at the disposal of Elven Command.

There has been one Good-aligned power shown in the story: Azure City. What do they do? They dispose of their military and diplomatic strength in such a way as to advance Good in the world (as they see it; they may not be right). We have been shown more Evil powers than Good powers (the Empire of Blood, Gobbotopia), but what do they do? They dispose of their military and diplomatic strength in such a way as to advance the cause of Evil in the world, by conquering nations and shaping the societies they rule towards Evil. The Elves, meanwhile, are isolationist and self-interested, and don't seem to advance any cause whatsoever. This seems to map more closely to Neutrality than anything else.

It could also be that, unlike the Azurites, the elves are isolationist and believe that their alignment does not generally call for active global military engagement in conflicts beyond their borders. That's not necessarily Neutral; it could easily be a philosophical choice based on pragmatism and/or humility.

Shadowknight12

2013-12-20, 09:00 AM

My two coppers on this is that the little speech, in addition to what Kish said, is also meant to illustrate how many people in the Western continent may feel about elves. Laurin's stance is very rational-sounding, and the kind of thing people living harsh lives tend to believe of those who have it better.

It's entirely possible this was a line meant to reflect part of the OotS's worldbuilding.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-20, 09:17 AM

It could also be that, unlike the Azurites, the elves are isolationist and believe that their alignment does not generally call for active global military engagement in conflicts beyond their borders. That's not necessarily Neutral; it could easily be a philosophical choice based on pragmatism and/or humility.
Nothing in the comic or in the way the Giant speaks of his elves suggests humility as a driving force for their actions. Making choices based on pragmatism rather than principle is paradigmatic of Neutrality, as is putting one's self-interest above those who might need - or in the case of the Azurites are begging for - your help.

Keltest

2013-12-20, 09:57 AM

Emanick

2013-12-20, 10:09 AM

Nothing in the comic or in the way the Giant speaks of his elves suggests humility as a driving force for their actions. Making choices based on pragmatism rather than principle is paradigmatic of Neutrality, as is putting one's self-interest above those who might need - or in the case of the Azurites are begging for - your help.

It's true that the elves haven't been portrayed as particularly humble, unless you count the "living in harmony with nature" aspect of their race as an expression of their humility in the face of the vast and inscrutable world (which I might). But then again, we still know very little about them. I'd argue that we really don't have much in the way of any idea about what might be the "driving force for their actions"; most likely, different elves have different motivations for isolationism, some motivated by humility, some by pragmatism, and some by selfish indifference.

And as Keltest notes, pragmatism isn't necessarily Neutral, either; it's one's motives, not one's ways of working towards said motives, that make one Good, Neutral or Evil. If Roy was more pragmatic, he might not have chosen to leap onto the back of Xykon's dragon, but that wouldn't have made him even a smidgen more Neutral than he is.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-20, 10:16 AM

And as Keltest notes, pragmatism isn't necessarily Neutral, either; it's one's motives, not one's ways of working towards said motives, that make one Good, Neutral or Evil. If Roy was more pragmatic, he might not have chosen to leap onto the back of Xykon's dragon, but that wouldn't have made him even a smidgen more Neutral than he is.
Pragmatism in a vacuum isn't dispositive of anything, true, but that's not what I said. I said that weighting pragmatism as more important that principle in making decisions is paradigmatic of Neutrality. Good and Evil are both driven, ultimately, by principle, Good by the principle that it is better to help others rather than let them come to harm, and Evil by the principle that it is better to harm others than to let oneself come to harm. Neutrality doesn't necessarily stand by either, and if it does, it's willing to let principle slide if the situation warrants it. Good doesn't let the ends justify the means, Neutrality can, while Evil doesn't care about justifying anything.

Obviously things are more complicated than that, but when I look at the actions of the Elven Lands, I don't see a power animated to any degree by a devotion to Good principles. Certainly not to Azure City's extent.

Seto

2013-12-20, 10:33 AM

I think Laurin's line "You don't know anything about me" seems to indicate a personal backstory rather than the general way humans on this continent view the elves. She probably holds a personal grudge against elves for a reason that, indeed, we don't know anything about.

Heksefatter

2013-12-20, 10:35 AM

Racism and hypocrisy. You expected anything less from a member of the Laurinear Guild?

Using more words, Tarquin revels in being a card-carrying villain, even while claiming to be Above the Limited and Unrealistic Alignment System. Malack considered himself nothing more, and nothing less, than a good and faithful servant. Miron, from what little we've seen of him, might care only for his own greed, and Jacinda might be outright axe crazy. But Laurin's a rationalizer; she "does this thing we do," she says delicately, so that her daughter, who she could long ago have teleported to somewhere far away where she could have a life of grotesque luxury without anyone needing to suffer for it since HER MOTHER IS A BORDERLINE-EPIC PSION, can have a good life. So...we find out that Laurin blames an elf she's never met for forcing, forcing I say, her to do all those nasty things because...s/he is an elf. This is my surprised face.

I fully agree with this. What Laurin appears to do is to find rationalizations. Of course, we don't know Laurin that well (yet?), so it is possible that we might discover that there's more to this. However, the above observations seem highly plausible.

Keltest

2013-12-20, 11:07 AM

Pragmatism in a vacuum isn't dispositive of anything, true, but that's not what I said. I said that weighting pragmatism as more important that principle in making decisions is paradigmatic of Neutrality. Good and Evil are both driven, ultimately, by principle, Good by the principle that it is better to help others rather than let them come to harm, and Evil by the principle that it is better to harm others than to let oneself come to harm. Neutrality doesn't necessarily stand by either, and if it does, it's willing to let principle slide if the situation warrants it. Good doesn't let the ends justify the means, Neutrality can, while Evil doesn't care about justifying anything.

Obviously things are more complicated than that, but when I look at the actions of the Elven Lands, I don't see a power animated to any degree by a devotion to Good principles. Certainly not to Azure City's extent.

That may be true about individuals, but governments and races act on a different level. They cant afford to go charging around the land smiting evil wherever they find it, even if the race itself is a "good" race. IE the elves sending a force to assist the underground-without-an-official-name in Azure City was a good act in that it was helping to get people out of slavery and delay the cause of evil. In theory, they could probably have liberated the city if they devoted all their resources towards it, but ultimately the cost in elven lives would be too high. The cost outweighs the gains, morally and literally.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-20, 11:16 AM

That may be true about individuals, but governments and races act on a different level.
In The Order of the Stick, we have seen that both Good and Evil powers use their resources to advance their moral agenda. Azure City felt the need to sponsor crusades even after command of the Sapphire Guard passed to the Lord of the City. The hobgoblins are perfectly happy to empty their city and force march The Dark One knows where on the whim of the Supreme Leader. Tarquin has no compunctions about using military force to bring "his order" to unwilling peoples. I'm don't think it's a coincidence that the only powers we've seen use military force have been expressly called out as aligned with one of the alignment extremes.

They cant afford to go charging around the land smiting evil wherever they find it, even if the race itself is a "good" race.
And yet Azure City, a good-aligned power (when I say power, by the way, I'm talking about the state, not the people or "race") does just that, and is the only power that has been explicitly called Good-aligned. Meanwhile, according to Rich, the Elves don't take it upon themselves to police the world in the same way the Azurites do.

Keltest

2013-12-20, 11:21 AM

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-20, 11:34 AM

As for policing the world, the only example we have of them affecting things outside of their own immediate territory (when not displaced, obviously) is sending a paladin after a party of adventurers. Nothing huge like waging war on orcs in the north or anything.
The Crayons of Time mention the Sapphire Guard conducting crusades against those would might at some point threaten the Gates. The gazetteer of Azure City mentions that they regularly introduce expeditionary forces into far-off lands in the name of their "crusades", and that other nations are annoyed at them for it. For a more visceral example...have you read Start of Darkness?

Keltest

2013-12-20, 11:37 AM

The Crayons of Time mention the Sapphire Guard conducting crusades against those would might at some point threaten the Gates. The gazetteer of Azure City mentions that they regularly introduce expeditionary forces into far-off lands in the name of their "crusades", and that other nations are annoyed at them for it. For a more visceral example...have you read Start of Darkness?

No, I haven't. And I think were drifting from the point a little, im not sure what were arguing about anymore other than factual accuracy.

Kish

2013-12-20, 11:46 AM

No, I haven't. And I think were drifting from the point a little, im not sure what were arguing about anymore other than factual accuracy.

Azure City was a nation dedicated to all that was good and holy...but in many ways failed to live up to its ideals.

...

Most damning, though, is a decades long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods.
From, I believe, War and XPs.

Emanick

2013-12-20, 11:51 AM

Pragmatism in a vacuum isn't dispositive of anything, true, but that's not what I said. I said that weighting pragmatism as more important that principle in making decisions is paradigmatic of Neutrality. Good and Evil are both driven, ultimately, by principle, Good by the principle that it is better to help others rather than let them come to harm, and Evil by the principle that it is better to harm others than to let oneself come to harm. Neutrality doesn't necessarily stand by either, and if it does, it's willing to let principle slide if the situation warrants it. Good doesn't let the ends justify the means, Neutrality can, while Evil doesn't care about justifying anything.

Obviously things are more complicated than that, but when I look at the actions of the Elven Lands, I don't see a power animated to any degree by a devotion to Good principles. Certainly not to Azure City's extent.

True, but do we know that the elves consider pragmatism a substitute for principle, rather than part and parcel of it? If the elves have considered the global situation and decided on a pragmatic basis that, ultimately, it would be wrong for them to intervene too much in the affairs of others - whether because it isn't their business or because it would make things worse in the long run - that would seem to be a moral judgment, not a calculated one rooted in Neutral calculus. And in fact, although there isn't enough information on this to be definitive, this is the impression I get of the elves: they genuinely believe that it would be wrong to intervene in human conflicts to much of an extent, for whatever reason. ("It's the cirrrrcle of life" to them, according to Rich.)

Now, if I was in the elves' shoes, that isn't the conclusion I would come to at all. But that's by the by.

bguy

2013-12-20, 11:53 AM

The Crayons of Time mention the Sapphire Guard conducting crusades against those would might at some point threaten the Gates. The gazetteer of Azure City mentions that they regularly introduce expeditionary forces into far-off lands in the name of their "crusades", and that other nations are annoyed at them for it. For a more visceral example...have you read Start of Darkness?

The Sapphire Guard isn't really part of the Azure City state though. It's a private army with its own agenda. (i.e. if a Lord of Azure City decided he was going to harnass Soon's Gate to increase the power of Azure City, the Sapphire Guard would fight him with the same ferocity they displayed against the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle.)

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-20, 12:06 PM

In The Order of the Stick, we have seen that both Good and Evil powers use their resources to advance their moral agenda. Azure City felt the need to sponsor crusades even after command of the Sapphire Guard passed to the Lord of the City. The hobgoblins are perfectly happy to empty their city and force march The Dark One knows where on the whim of the Supreme Leader. Tarquin has no compunctions about using military force to bring "his order" to unwilling peoples. I'm don't think it's a coincidence that the only powers we've seen use military force have been expressly called out as aligned with one of the alignment extremes.

And yet Azure City, a good-aligned power (when I say power, by the way, I'm talking about the state, not the people or "race") does just that, and is the only power that has been explicitly called Good-aligned. Meanwhile, according to Rich, the Elves don't take it upon themselves to police the world in the same way the Azurites do.

That's not because the Elves are not Good, it is because the Elves are isolationist. The Azurites had many fair-weather friends, but in the end after they failed to stand up to Xykon and his horde of Hobgoblins, no one on the Southern Continent was willing to help them. Cliffport was secretly trading with Gobbotopia, and once the Elves began supporting the Azurite Resistance, Cliffport openly recognized Gobbotopia. Cliffport is probably a True Neutral power, doing whatever is in it's self-interest. The city has a few interesting interpretations of Civil Liberties (the right not to have Divinations used to determine your guilt) but it also has a strong Police presence and needlessly slow court system. Cliffport is perfectly balanced between Law and Chaos and Good and Evil.

Greysky City is pretty much Chaotic Evil, Chaotic Neutral at best.

Gobbotopia is Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil, I'm not sure which.

Before it fell, Azure City was Lawful Good, with a Chaotic Good ruler breaking the laws in secret for the "greater good".

I get a strong sense of Chaos from the assorted countries in the desert of the Western Continent, except for the Empires of BSW, which are all Lawful Evil.

However one's Alignment doesn't indicate whether a power will be activist or isolationist, use force or diplomacy. Azure City used force in their crusade to protect the Gates, while Cliffport uses diplomacy and trade wars to get it's way. The Elves were isolationists, while the Empire of Blood reaches out to it's neighbors (but not to their benefit). Crime is rampant in Greysky City, with the police on the take, whereas both Cliffport and Bleedingham have competent a police force. The difference is that the cops in Cliffport are honest (if some are a little obtuse), with 'Da Rookie (who may be the new 'Da Chief) whipping them into shape, while in Bleedingham the police are a merciless brute squad, backed up by a secret police and a ninja death squad.

bguy

2013-12-20, 12:21 PM

Being a superpower implies interest. You become a superpower by dominating trade, diplomacy revolves around you and whatever other superpowers there are, etc.

Strip 702 said the elves are in a trade war with Cliffport (which is implied to be the richest, most populated city in the Stickverse). That certainly suggests the elves are a major commercial power.

Likewise that same strip shows Cliffport recognizing Gobbotopia in reaction to the perceived elven assault on Xykon. Thus a major nation is making a big diplomatic move in response to what they perceive as an elven action. We also see Tarquin in strip 758 is specifically avoiding ever merging their three desert empires into a single state even after they have absored the entire southern half of the Western Continent, for fear of provoking an attack by the elves. Thus it certainly does seem like diplomacy revolves very heavily around what the elves are doing.

There's no indication that the Elves are doing any of that. From how few Elves we've seen outside the Elven lands (there's V, Team Peregrine, and...um...) there's little to no signs of Elves interacting with the outside world at all. Heck, the Elves don't even have an ambassador to the nations on the Western continent - the one we saw was Z in disguise."

But the mere fact that Z would disguise himself as an elven ambassador suggests that they do exist on the Western Continent. And between the elves waging a trade war with Cliffport, and carrying out covert military action in Gobbotopia, they clearly are involved with the outside world.

The Elves have pretty much been doing what Elves always do in fantasy stories - sit in their forests stargazing while the villains are working on taking over the world, only pausing to shoot any uppity "lesser races" that dare enter their forests. Also known as "why I can't stand Elves".

That seems unfair since the elves are the only major world power that was willing to provide Azure City with any military support. I also suspect the reason the elves did not send more help had much more to do with Cliffport than with any fear of Xykon. Cliffport recognizing Gobbotopia in response to a perceived elven attack on it was a pretty clear warning sign to the elves that Cliffport might ally with Gobbotopia if the elves act too aggressively. Even superpowers might be reluctant to act overtly when doing so risks starting a war with another superpower.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-20, 12:30 PM

That's not because the Elves are not Good, it is because the Elves are isolationist.
All this does is push back the question. Why are they isolationist? What I'm saying is, in light of the way extreme alignments in this world seem to lead to powers pursuing interventionist policies, that isolationism is more likely a consequence of the Elves' neutral alignment as a power rather than an exception to the general rule.

Keltest

2013-12-20, 12:32 PM

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-20, 12:34 PM

What powers? the Sapphire guard, sure, but besides them?
The Empires, the hobgoblins, the minor states on the Western Continent...

Keltest

2013-12-20, 12:39 PM

The Empires, the hobgoblins, the minor states on the Western Continent...

The minor states aren't powers... you explicitly called them minor states!

As for the Empires, theyre too occupied with killing each other to form a big enough army with enough reach to be considered a power. They may become so in time, if Tarquin's party were to decide to consolidate their power officially, but right now none of them are major players by themselves.

CaDzilla

2013-12-20, 12:54 PM

Since were talking about how elves are d-bags, can we also talk about the Drow? The only Drow we've seen are on a poster and the only Drow we know as a character is Z. Also, a theory about Drow in Oots
They didn't like the elves that were lifted up as gods, so they started to worship a random spider out of spite. They named this spider the "Itsy-Bitsy spider".

mhsmith

2013-12-20, 01:03 PM

"Lose" is a word you're inserting into my argument. I never uttered it. Of course world powers can lose battles or wars. But they have to be able to get to the battles and wars before they can lose them. They have to be able to project power before they can contest power. And of course there can be more than one power capable of getting its forces wherever they need to be anywhere in the world. This is a thing that occurs in the world, and it would be the height of silliness to deny it.

Everything we've seen suggests that the Elves' power projection capability is shrinking, rather than growing. This isn't the first time I've laid out the argument for this, so have a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15922561&postcount=57) and reply to the points raised therein if you like.

Odd that they would be the only ones out of all the people the Azurites contacted that underestimated Team Evil. Everyone else seemed pants-fillingly terrified of them. Odd that these "high-level teams" never appeared in the defense of Lirian's Glade (Lirian's forces were her own private paramilitary, not affiliated with Elven Command), and those that were due to arrive were apparently so low-level they couldn't teleport.

Perhaps it would be where you said:

A world power must have the capacity to win on any ground, at home or abroad. It must have the capacity to get enough forces to enforce its will at the point of decision, which could be anywhere in the world.

If you send forces, and they get defeated, then it follows (from the definition of "enough") that you didn't send "enough" forces. Then one of two things must be true: either you exercised the best of your capacity and got defeated anyway (ergo, not a world power), or you didn't exercise the best of your capacity. Maybe you miscalculated the force required, or maybe there was some good strategic reason for holding back.

I think you're misreading the original comment. The capacity to win isn't the act of winning or the inevitability of winning. The US and USSR were obvious world powers during the Cold War, they could project power and have a reasonable shot at winning a war just about anywhere in the world (aside from each others' borders, unless you want to get into nuclear warfare). The US obviously had the capacity to win in Vietnam, they simply didn't win. Ditto the USSR in Afghanistan. In neither case were they blatantly under-powered and embarrassed, they simply lost to foes who did a better job than they did.

This contrasts to, say, Italy invading Greece in WW2, or any number of other failed military actions where it was abundantly clear that one side was totally outmatched.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-20, 01:11 PM

All this does is push back the question. Why are they isolationist? What I'm saying is, in light of the way extreme alignments in this world seem to lead to powers pursuing interventionist policies, that isolationism is more likely a consequence of the Elves' neutral alignment as a power rather than an exception to the general rule.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif "Old allies, that are slow to go to war. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) I've been trying to convince them to act for months."

The Elves have a much longer lifespan than Humans, and that influences how they make decisions. Let's say that there is a terrible despot named Lord Tyrinar the Bloody, who has been oppressing the people of Tyrinaria. The Elves might debate whether or not to devote resources to fighting this Lord Tyrinar. They have heard rumors of torture and slavery, but their diplomats all report that upon meeting Lord Tyrinar he seems like a wuss. So the debate goes on for a few more months, by which time the Elven diplomats report on a coup and of Lord Tyrinar being eaten by a dragon. They further report that the plotters of the coup have had a falling out over who should be the next ruler. The next report says the dragon's allies have won, which is disturbing news to the Elves, but the next report says that she's something of a moron, easily tricked and appeased by her general and chief cleric.

And so on. The Elves mean well, but they don't act quickly enough to make any changes in the tumult of the Western Continent. And there are other elements in the Elven homeland that hate this, and are itching to go and do something. So when the Elves do act, they strike quickly and retreat, often tossing enemies off rooftops.

Remember Zimmer, the Elves are Chaotic Good, but that doesn't mean they don't sit around talking a lot. It means that when they do sit around talking they tend to argue, with each Elf presenting a point and trying to convince every other Elf to go along with him or her. During that time, events pass in the outside world.

Fish

2013-12-20, 01:39 PM

Nothing, you say? Not throwing your ward out on the street and leaving them homeless, trading in souls with fiends, committing mass murder, or throwing prisoners off rooftops because of their race?
Excuse me. When is it ever appropriate to say because ONE person of a certain race did something, ALL are guilty?

Hmm. Oh, that's right, it's NEVER.

Snails

2013-12-20, 01:40 PM

If we take the Chaotic Good alignment seriously, we might expect indecisive action and a preference for piecemeal information gathering efforts, until a clear picture emerges.

For all we know, after twenty years, the elves have started to notice that certain key "advisors" may move around, but linger just outside the limelight. But why act now when acting later may be better? If they actually toppled Tarquin, they could have fewer resources for dealing with near future threats, like those rumors about the fate of Lirian.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-20, 01:57 PM

Remember Zimmer, the Elves are Chaotic Good
Says the Monster Manual. Which might be an authority on 'racial alignment' in your made-up world, but is not such in the Giant's made-up world.

Clistenes

2013-12-20, 01:58 PM

There's a comment by the Giant which lays out how elves are not a "good race" in his world, but I can't find it in the Index. I'll keep looking, but if someone finds it first I'd appreciate it if they'd post it.

EDIT: found it! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15919361&postcount=24)

In that quote, Rich said that elves aren't "Good-aligned peacekeepers who watch the world and look for places to intervene if Evil is getting the upper hand"; that is, they aren't proactive defenders of Good. That doesn't imply that they aren't basically Good, just that they mind their own business and usually don't try to influence the world out side their frontiers.

the mapmaker described the continent as "the elves have the northern forested part and everyone else is fighting over the scraps" or something to that extent

Laurin may blame the constant war on the elves for not sharing and helping them

Another factor to take into account is...was there a desert there before the humans arrived? I our own world, many deserts have been created or widened by human action. What if the humans created the desert, cutting down the tropical trees and allowing erosion to destroy the ferLitile ground?

The elves maybe once lived on the whole continent, when it was all covered by trees, but the humans arrived and ruined the sourthern portion, and the elves have retreated to the north and are trying to prevent humans to do the same there.

Likewise, what if the elves created the forest? With high ranks in Knowledge (Nature), magic and long elven lives, that isn't an impossible project.

Emanick

2013-12-20, 02:05 PM

Says the Monster Manual. Which might be an authority on 'racial alignment' in your made-up world, but is not such in the Giant's made-up world.

The Giant tends to adhere to most aspects of the Monster Manual and the other core rulebooks, with many notable exceptions. There's no proof that Elves are Often Chaotic Good in OOTSverse, of course, but as a starting assumption you could do far worse.

loodwig

2013-12-20, 02:06 PM

Keltest

2013-12-20, 02:08 PM

Says the Monster Manual. Which might be an authority on 'racial alignment' in your made-up world, but is not such in the Giant's made-up world.

Unless stated otherwise, its assumed that his world follows the rules laid out in the various books.

mhsmith

2013-12-20, 03:15 PM

Unless stated otherwise, its assumed that his world follows the rules laid out in the various books.

Giant has pretty consistently railed against "racial alignment" rules, so I think we can pretty safely assume otherwise.

Fish

2013-12-20, 03:49 PM

Unless stated otherwise, its assumed ...
Passive voice, consider rephrasing. Who is doing the assuming? Not I.

I assume the Giant is telling a story, not transcribing the details of an actual campaign played within the letter of the rule book. What happens, happens. What the rules say: meaningless.

SoC175

2013-12-20, 04:05 PM

Keltest

2013-12-20, 04:06 PM

Passive voice, consider rephrasing. Who is doing the assuming? Not I.

I assume the Giant is telling a story, not transcribing the details of an actual campaign played within the letter of the rule book. What happens, happens. What the rules say: meaningless.

When discussing ANY topic you have to make at least a few assumptions in order to keep things within the realm of the understood. Even philosophers make the assumption that we actually exist simply because nothing else they could talk about matters if that's not the case. If we start ignoring the rulebooks simply because the Giant might choose to contradict them at some later time, we basically have nothing to discuss about. Elves could secretly have a third arm for a bellybutton. Hobgoblins could be creatures stolen from other webcomics and experimented on. You could be me! (but probably not)

what the Giant says goes first, obviously, but equally obviously he cannot and/or will not write out where each sourcebook does and does not conform. OOTS is based in a D&D world, so until the Giant tells me otherwise, im going to operate on the assumption that it conforms to what that says should happen.

Paseo H

2013-12-22, 08:59 PM

throwing prisoners off rooftops because of their race?

For once I agree with you. It felt really cold blooded of them, when I read it. Fighting and killing is one thing, but that whole bit of pageantry?

Ramien

2013-12-22, 11:44 PM

Unless stated otherwise, its assumed that his world follows the rules laid out in the various books.

You know, I have a very extensive library of 3.5 sourcebooks, and I haven't found a single book detailing the lives of the elves living on the Western Continent north of the Goaway Mountains.

Even if elves in general are 'usually Chaotic Good,' even their canon governments are usually something closer to Neutral, what with not caring about the fate of sentients outside their borders, sometimes active closing their borders to non-elves, and general 'Not playing with you because you're (short and hairy/breed too fast/way too short/ORC!Killkillkillkill [delete as apporpriate])' attitude.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-23, 10:43 AM

Says the Monster Manual. Which might be an authority on 'racial alignment' in your made-up world, but is not such in the Giant's made-up world.

So let's take a look at the various Elves who've appeared in OotS. Lirian, as a Druid, is required to be partially Neutral. Given her attitude towards peacefully imprisoning prisoners, using non-violent methods when she could and her concern for the creatures she recruited, I peg Lirian as Neutral Good.

Word of Giant is that V is True Neutral.

We don't know Keeno's Alignment.

We don't know Aarindarius' Alignment.

We know that Ho Thanh would not have associated with Team Peregrine if they were Evil. (Unless you're going to argue that the Commander had a Permanent Undetectable Alignment spell on him, he seems Neutral to me.)

V's adopted children are Cute.

So we have one Neutral Good Druid and one True Neutral Wizard. Keeno might be of Good Alignment, since he seemed eager to help his friend Eugene, and as Elan has taught us, competence is not a requirement for a Good Alignment. So what conclusions are we supposed to draw from looking at the actual evidence?

Jokunen

2013-12-23, 11:00 AM

Well, looking at it coldly...why should the elves allow humans to migrate to their country? Humans in real life are quite nasty, but in the this fantasy world humans are all either religious fanatics or a bunch of psychos ruled by people not unlike rwuandan or somalian warlords, and even human heroes think that seeking around people to kill and loot or breaking and looting the homes of their own allies are perfectly normal behaviours. They are in many aspects as bad as gnolls or orcs.

Not to mention that whether or not humans are good people, elves have no obligation to let the humans into their land. It's their land, and they have the right to decide who they let in.

Just like real world nations have that right.

Jokunen

2013-12-23, 11:33 AM

That's not because the Elves are not Good, it is because the Elves are isolationist. The Azurites had many fair-weather friends, but in the end after they failed to stand up to Xykon and his horde of Hobgoblins, no one on the Southern Continent was willing to help them. Cliffport was secretly trading with Gobbotopia, and once the Elves began supporting the Azurite Resistance, Cliffport openly recognized Gobbotopia.

Btw, where did you find all this?

Amphiox

2013-12-23, 11:48 AM

Imagine if we humns shared the world with a sentience species of octopus. Their technology is roughly equivalent to ours. Relations are cordial, we trade often, war between us is rare. We have diplomatic relations with some of their nations.

But, their lifespan is 1 year.

So we hear that a terrible octopodian despot is oppressing his people, and threatening other neighbouring octopus nations. Their ambassadors come to us asking military aid. How would we react, knowing that if we just wait one year, this despot will be dead, that by the time we finished mobilizing our armies, he'd have aged past the prime of his life and into his period of senescence, that even if he has heirs and his regime lasts 5 generations, that is hardly one election cycle for us?

I think while we may offer some form of aid, we'd be pretty unlikely to commit military force.

And to the Octopods, our decision-making processes must seem agonizingly slow.

I actually think that the long lifespan of elves is yet another aspect of D&D cosmology that has not been thought out to its logical consequence. Elves in D&D and many other fantasy settings still act too much like short-lived humans.

As just one example, the elves (who know the truth) should be in utter panic about Xykon and Redcloak right now. (V herself should be far less calm). Some ephemeral despot like Tarquin they would likely ignore, but a power like Xykon that threatens them directly by threatening creation, who could be as close to a few weeks away from succeeding in his plans? That to an elf used to thinking in terms of thousands of years would be like having a hurricane about to smash into his house within the next five minutes for short lived humans like us.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-23, 12:13 PM

But, their lifespan is 1 year.
If we're keeping things proportionate, then these octopoids would have a maximum lifespan of sixteen years and six months. Which isn't a lifetime in human terms, but it is comparable to the time it takes for the "era" of a generation to pass.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-23, 12:56 PM

Btw, where did you find all this?

Hinjo can be seen visiting the Azurites' "fair weather friends" here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html).

Redcloak revealed that Cliffport, along with sixteen other nations, had recognized Gobbotopia here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html). One of the Hobgoblin Clerics specifically says that Cliffport decided to influence Gobbotopia's views on slavery via trade.

Jokunen

2013-12-23, 02:49 PM

*snip*

In D&D, elfs maximum age is 350 + 4D100 years, which is on average 552 years. So, they certainly don't live thousands of years.. and for human the maximum age is 70 + 2D20 years, 91 years on average (I guess this assumes adventures or nobility who can afford to have clerics cast healing spells on them, not peasants). So, elfs live on average about six times longer than humans. In your octopus comparison, their life time should be about 15 years.

Anyways, it's not likely that thought process of elves is significantly slower than in humans, so they probably don't perceive time to run that much faster than humans do. (Although older people tend to perceive time to run faster than younger people, that's probably because thought processes run slower in old people. According to some research quickness of thought has already dropped significantly at age of 27.)

It's still likely that the elves don't want to take big risks when dealing some strong men dictators such as Tarquin unless they have to, as they can just wait it out and let them die of old age. Also, you don't need any complicated explanations for why they didn't assist Azure City in larger force. By the time they heard of the situation, it had already been overrun, and they probably considered it as a write-off. Then they sent two small teams both to make Azurites feel good, and to harass the Gobbotopia with as little resources as possible.

Liliet

2013-12-26, 11:42 AM

I actually loved Laurin's little rant. It was, well, it was an inevitable opinion that could not not exist. If there are elves in the setting, there will be humans who will be resentful of them at least for their lifespan, and if there is a situation of elves living in the forest and humans living in the desert, separated by a mountain range, it's a safe bet that for 90% of population elves are "those arrogant snobbish jerks who are to blame that we [as in, all humans on the Western continent] don't have nice things". Of course, it still takes a special kind of thought process to tell that to the face of one of them that you don't know anything about except that ve looks like ve shares your lifestyle. But Laurin is Evil, and she was attacking V at the moment, so why not?

I think Laurin thinking that is not all that indicative of her character, except that it looks like she's local, but her saying that aloud is. Battle banter for spellcasters is not really all that common, and battle banter in form of discussing political views is generally reserved to the hero/villain interaction, as in "we can rule together/you are evil!".

It's pretty probable that yes, unlike at least Tarquin and Malack, Laurin is not a sociopath and does have an active conscience, but shuts it up by blaming others for her decisions that she feels are wrong. As soon as running the continent-wide political con is refluffed as "fighting for scraps", which it can be since it's essentially a struggle over habitable scraps of land in the desert, it suddenly doesn't sound all that despicable. I mean, if the elves were willing to share, there would be more land for everyone, and there wouldn't be need to fight that much, so there! It's all elves' fault and not Laurin's! Because that's how logic works!

And either Laurin is V 2.0 in terms of long rants at random moments of time, or for some reason she felt really bad about attacking vir. What reason could that be? Does she have a soft spot for androgyny?

Or maybe she just has personal reasons to dislike elves on top of continent-wide natural distaste for them, and has been waiting to spit it out for so long that the moment not being really opportune for shaming an elf did not stop her.

David Argall

2013-12-26, 12:51 PM

We need to keep in mind that that there is a very good chance what we hear is just noise, with no plot meaning. Ignoring whether our psion is lying, to herself or others, or is mistaken or not, at any moment now we may see the last of the Western Continent.
X is at the last gate, and any delay in getting there can be too much. The party must rush North ASAP. Any delay to do anything is going to be hard to justify.
And we do have a fair amount of stuff to do as it is. The dwarves need to be visited and we need to look at the Snarl world and...
So this may well be just a throwaway sentence that will connect up to nothing.

Sotharsyl

2013-12-26, 04:37 PM

Lombard

2013-12-26, 04:45 PM

Perhaps Giant was simply trying to portray Laurin as acting from a purely self-interested perspective as opposed to say Tarquin who needs to dominate and control.

Liliet

2013-12-26, 05:22 PM

What I liked is that Laurin was making the same argumment as the goblins.

Yet since a human is making it to an elf, instead of a goblinoid making it to a group of races which includes humanity in Laurin's case there's lots of "oh maybe every elf is evil in this campaign world" which doesn't happen with Redcloack's speeches.

RC has forum goers on his side that's clear but at worst they declare the humans as ignorant of the plight and don't generalise to the whole of humanity.

Also about the elvish teritories who are we to know if they have the space to let the other races in, they might be at the limit of what their domain can support as well.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure elves are under no obligation to let humans live on their territory. Unless they were the ones who forced humans to inhabit this continent, or ones to make the once-prosperous land a desert, they are not responsible for humans choosing to live where life is uncomfortable.

It's still natural for humans at large to perceive elves having nice things - green lands, long life - and them not as not fair. And it's natural to blame the elves for that. Of course, someone of Laurin's caliber only needs to put a little thought into it to realize that it's stupid, but only if they want to. Laurin, apparently, doesn't. It's more comfortable for her that way.

CaDzilla

2013-12-26, 05:59 PM

Liliet

2013-12-26, 06:02 PM

Tarquin, fool that he is, is right. Laurin should just nuke the ship instead of wasting time in a pissing contest with an elf. I also think Tarquin's going to not count it as a full favor since she bailed at the last minute and didn't heed his instruction

Well, Tarquin's objectives included getting Elan alive. Also, they don't know V barred Teleportation and is at disadvantage regarding mobility of the team.

CaDzilla

2013-12-26, 06:09 PM

Well, Tarquin's objectives included getting Elan alive. Also, they don't know V barred Teleportation and is at disadvantage regarding mobility of the team.

Tarquin knows about it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html). Also Tarquin was probably asking her to do it on the assumption that Elan would be the only one to survive a crashing, burning ship. He is under the impression that he has plot armor.

Keltest

2013-12-26, 06:13 PM

Tarquin knows about it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html). Also Tarquin was probably asking her to do it on the assumption that Elan would be the only one to survive a crashing, burning ship. He is under the impression that he has plot armor.

Tarquin intends to survive as well, which would be significantly less likely an outcome if Laurin spends all her points on nuking the ship and everyone on it.

CaDzilla

2013-12-26, 06:30 PM

Tarquin intends to survive as well, which would be significantly less likely an outcome if Laurin spends all her points on nuking the ship and everyone on it.

Tarquin also believes that he will survive. He thinks that he's the main villain and he also has Fire resistance

Keltest

2013-12-26, 07:27 PM

Tarquin also believes that he will survive. He thinks that he's the main villain and he also has Fire resistance

Yeah, but he should know the flustered antagonist who pulls out all the guns always blows themselves up!

CaDzilla

2013-12-26, 07:41 PM

Yeah, but he should know the flustered antagonist who pulls out all the guns always blows themselves up!

Well, he's having a really bad day right now. He also probably should have thought about that before sending that squadron to kill the front liners, having his psion burn her mana points on wormholes, and breaking the arm of his son's paramour

Keltest

2013-12-26, 07:43 PM

Well, he's having a really bad day right now. He also probably should have thought about that before sending that squadron to kill the front liners, having his psion burn her mana points on wormholes, and breaking the arm of his son's paramour

well, she did stab him...

CaDzilla

2013-12-26, 07:46 PM

well, she did stab him...

After He stabbed her

Keltest

2013-12-26, 07:48 PM

After He stabbed her

don't muddle the issue with facts.

CaDzilla

2013-12-26, 07:53 PM

don't muddle the issue with facts.

Well, to be fair, Elan forced him to do it

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-26, 08:54 PM

RC has forum goers on his side that's clear but at worst they declare the humans as ignorant of the plight and don't generalise to the whole of humanity.
Why should any reader want to defend Elvendom to the same extent they defend Humanity? The story has spent its entire run in human lands, affording the readers the opportunity to get to know and care about humans. The elves, by contrast, aren't important, and only exist in the story at all because Vaarsuvius isn't a unique being or the last of her kind.

Kish

2013-12-26, 09:07 PM

Why should any reader want to defend Elvendom to the same extent they defend Humanity?
I cannot fathom why any reader would want to defend "Elvendom" or "Humanity." Or "Goblinkind," for that matter.

If I'm attached to Hinjo, that means I'm attached to...Hinjo. Not humans or males or people with blue hair.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-26, 09:10 PM

I cannot fathom why any reader would want to defend "Elvendom" or "Humanity." Or "Goblinkind," for that matter.
*shrug* People do. Someone must have stated their reasoning at some point.

Keltest

2013-12-26, 09:24 PM

*shrug* People do. Someone must have stated their reasoning at some point.

Because they were being oppressed by some person on the forums. (you, actually, but I never let such trivialities as facts bother me)

CaDzilla

2013-12-26, 10:03 PM

I cannot fathom why any reader would want to defend "Elvendom" or "Humanity." Or "Goblinkind," for that matter.

If I'm attached to Hinjo, that means I'm attached to...Hinjo. Not humans or males or people with blue hair.

People want to bang elves and the goblinoids got a raw deal. Though, think about it this way: Why do the the elves have the lush forest in the first place? The Elven gods weren't at the dawn of creation, so who would give them the good land? Unless proven otherwise, I assume that the forest was made lush by the efforts of the elves. Though I hope I'm wrong, because that would make the elves so much into that "master race" mold.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-27, 11:15 AM

People want to bang elves and the goblinoids got a raw deal. Though, think about it this way: Why do the the elves have the lush forest in the first place? The Elven gods weren't at the dawn of creation, so who would give them the good land? Unless proven otherwise, I assume that the forest was made lush by the efforts of the elves. Though I hope I'm wrong, because that would make the elves so much into that "master race" mold.

Except that the Goblins did get a raw deal, at least if we believe Redcloak's spiel in SoD. But in terms of the Elves vs. the Humans of the Western Continent, we have a few bits of dialogue from Darth V, the Cartographer, Tarquin and Laurin. Redcloak gave details, whereas all we're getting about the Elves vs. Humans/Lizardfolk is a stray line here and there.

CaDzilla

2013-12-27, 03:41 PM

Except that the Goblins did get a raw deal, at least if we believe Redcloak's spiel in SoD. But in terms of the Elves vs. the Humans of the Western Continent, we have a few bits of dialogue from Darth V, the Cartographer, Tarquin and Laurin. Redcloak gave details, whereas all we're getting about the Elves vs. Humans/Lizardfolk is a stray line here and there.

I did say that goblinoids got a raw deal.

Kish

2013-12-27, 03:55 PM

*shrug* People do. Someone must have stated their reasoning at some point.
A lot of people say things I find bizarre. But you were the one here and now who suggested that "defending Humanity" made sense and "defending Elvendom" did not, instead of both (and attacking Humanity or Elvendom) being as fundamentally wrongheaded as "all black dragons should be judged based on They Are Black Dragons."

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-27, 03:59 PM

A lot of people say things I find bizarre. But you were the one here and now who suggested that "defending Humanity" made sense and "defending Elvendom" did not, instead of both (and attacking Humanity or Elvendom) being as fundamentally wrongheaded as "all black dragons should be judged based on They Are Black Dragons."
All I said in the post to which you're objecting is that the comic gives some in-universe peoples more screentime and insight into their culture and worldview than others, and that the more screentime a people, its culture and its worldview get, the more people are inspired to sympathize with the people, to understand its culture and to defend its worldview. How is that controversial statement?

Kish

2013-12-27, 04:09 PM

All I said in the post to which you're objecting is that the comic gives some in-universe peoples more screentime and insight into their culture and worldview than others, and that the more screentime a people, its culture and its worldview get, the more people are inspired to sympathize with its culture and worldview. The more readers get to know these peoples, the less alien they seem, and the easier they are to sympathize with. How is that controversial statement?
I don't think it's controversial; I just think it's wrong to the point of "what comic are you reading?" You have insight into "Humanity's" culture and worldview from reading OotS?

We've seen Cliffport's culture, a little; I can only think of one person I've ever seen say anything positive about it, counting myself. We've seen Greksky City's culture, and I don't even know if that's a primarily human city. We've seen Azure City's culture, and views on it seem pretty divided on the board. We've seen the morally bankrupt and mixed-race culture of the Empire of Blood. But "Human Culture"? I defy you to say anything about it from OotS, other than things like "made up of people who don't live as long as elves on average."

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-27, 04:13 PM

I don't think it's controversial; I just think it's wrong to the point of "what comic are you reading?" You have insight into "Humanity's" culture and worldview from reading OotS?

We've seen Cliffport's culture, a little; I can only think of one person I've ever seen say anything positive about it, counting myself. We've seen Greksky City's culture, and I don't even know if that's a primarily human city. We've seen Azure City's culture, and views on it seem pretty divided on the board. We've seen the morally bankrupt and mixed-race culture of the Empire of Blood. But "Human Culture"? I defy you to say anything about it from OotS, other than things like "made up of people who don't live as long as elves on average."
Okay, we can nitpick about how peoples are divided up in universe, and maybe I should have named the various human cultural groups. But doing so wasn't at all important to my point, which was that the story demanded that we get to know the peoples you mentioned more than it did the elves, who are about on the level of peoples like those of Anywhere, Nowhere, and Somewhere in terms of how much the story needs them to exist or how much the audience needs to understand them.

Kish

2013-12-27, 04:17 PM

Okay, we can nitpick about how peoples are divided up in universe, and maybe I should have named the various human cultural groups. But doing so wasn't at all important to my point, which was that the story demanded that we get to know the peoples you mentioned more than it did the elves, who are about on the level of peoples like those of Anywhere, Nowhere, and Somewhere in terms of how much the story needs them to exist or how much the audience needs to understand them.
If you had posted that in response to the part of Sotharsyl's post your quoted...I would have blinked at the non-sequitur.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-27, 04:26 PM

If you had posted that in response to the part of Sotharsyl's post your quoted...I would have blinked at the non-sequitur.
Well, obviously, my syntax changed because the points I'm addressing changed. If I'd written my response to Sotharsyl according to your exacting standards, because I am obviously prescient, it might have read something like this:

"Why should any reader want to defend elven attitudes towards the humans and lizardfolk to their south to the same extent they defend the attitudes of, for example, the Azurites towards goblins (which are presumably shared to some extent by the goblins' other human neighbors)1? The story spent three books introducing us to the Azurites, affording the readers the opportunity to get to know and care about them. The elves, by contrast, aren't important, and only exist in the story at all because Vaarsuvius isn't a unique being or the last of her kind".

The point is the same. It is more important that we sympathize with the Azurites (who stand in for humanity in terms of Redcloak's grand narrative; which I and other readers have - perhaps mistakenly - muddled up with the comic's grand narrative) than it is that we sympathize with the elves.

1In both cases the attitude, or at least the policy, is "we ought to keep that other group from living where we live".

Liliet

2013-12-27, 04:55 PM

1In both cases the attitude, or at least the policy, is "we ought to keep that other group from living where we live".

I beg to differ. There's a huuuge difference between "not inviting to live together" and "burning down villages". There hasn't been a single hint that elves engage in behavior similar to Azurites' towards humans. There has been towards goblinoids, though - see the universally hated Elven Commander.

Kish

2013-12-27, 05:33 PM

I beg to differ. There's a huuuge difference between "not inviting to live together" and "burning down villages". There hasn't been a single hint that elves engage in behavior similar to Azurites' towards humans. There has been towards goblinoids, though - see the universally hated Elven Commander.
Universally hated, I wish.

To the rest of what you said, though, I would add that the equivalency is particularly ironic; if humans did not have more territory than any other species in their world, Zimmer's statements about how much time we've spent looking at human-dominated territories would denote something very odd and noteworthy. There is a ton of difference between, "We have no territory, and we'd like more-than-none" and "We don't have all the territory, and we'd like the small bit those people have to add to what we have."

Paseo H

2013-12-27, 07:12 PM

Universally hated, I wish.

Hey now.

What's not to love about a guy and his friends going beyond mere battle, to doing a whole huge production that amounts to "you deserve to die just for being born a goblin?"

lio45

2013-12-27, 09:00 PM

We've seen Cliffport's culture, a little; I can only think of one person I've ever seen say anything positive about it, counting myself.

If I may ask, what's wrong about Cliffport's culture?

You might have meant that an overwhelming majority of people did not have anything to say about it, either good or bad, and then I'd agree... because it felt to me that Cliffport was supposed to be a Neutral place, essentially mirroring our own modern, Western society. From what we've seen in the comic I think one could live a very decent life as a Good person in Cliffport, and die happy of old age. (Does that make me the second person ever to say something positive about it? :P)

Keltest

2013-12-27, 09:08 PM

If I may ask, what's wrong about Cliffport's culture?

You might have meant that an overwhelming majority of people did not have anything to say about it, either good or bad, and then I'd agree... because it felt to me that Cliffport was supposed to be a Neutral place, essentially mirroring our own modern, Western society. From what we've seen in the comic I think one could live a very decent life as a Good person in Cliffport, and die happy of old age. (Does that make me the second person ever to say something positive about it? :P)

I suppose, if you count the ability to not get murdered or starve or anything like that as a "good thing"

ThePhantasm

2013-12-27, 09:09 PM

Laurin is a hypocrite. She complains about the elves leaving them to fight for scraps, but what does she leave for the populace in the kingdoms that she and the others rule?

lio45

2013-12-27, 09:27 PM

I suppose, if you count the ability to not get murdered or starve or anything like that as a "good thing"

In a D&D world... any civilized place, where there are rules, laws, and mortal justice, and where you can buy food and find work... is likely a haven of peace and wellbeing, yes. No?

Keltest

2013-12-27, 09:30 PM

In a D&D world... any civilized place, where there are rules, laws, and mortal justice, and where you can buy food and find work... is likely a haven of peace and wellbeing, yes. No?

You have clearly never seen my D&D world.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-12-27, 09:54 PM

Laurin is a hypocrite. She complains about the elves leaving them to fight for scraps, but what does she leave for the populace in the kingdoms that she and the others rule?

That is a good point. I think her comment says a lot more about herself than it says about elves or politics on that continent.

Astroturtle

2013-12-27, 10:26 PM

Laurin is a hypocrite. She complains about the elves leaving them to fight for scraps, but what does she leave for the populace in the kingdoms that she and the others rule?

Exactly. The elves are, at most, a scape goat. With Laurin's power and the resources of her empire alone? She could reshape the desert and create a whole lot of livable territory.

And as for the Elves.. if the Elves did get involved, then what? Do they break all the governments and then leave the people to pick up things themselves? Establish a democracy? Build good/neutral governments and force people to live in them? Declare the entire southern half of the continent an Elvish principality? Send supplies that'll just be taken by the Warlord of the Moment? Try terraforming the desert in the face of the opposition of the various warlords?

Its nice to blame the Elves for staying in the forests that they've been nurturing for centuries with their thumbs up their bums. But what are they supposed to do? Throw away Elvish lives for.. what exactly? So that people of the southern half of the continent can have a few years of chaos before reestablishing their tyrannies?

Any social change in the desert kingdoms would have to ultimately come from the occupants of the desert kingdoms. The people who live there are going to have make some choices. Its nice to say that the Elves should help the southerners. It gets really messy when deciding how the Elves can effectively help them in a way that actually matters.

ReaderAt2046

2013-12-27, 10:29 PM

Or maybe she just has personal reasons to dislike elves on top of continent-wide natural distaste for them, and has been waiting to spit it out for so long that the moment not being really opportune for shaming an elf did not stop her.

I'm pretty sure it's this. RC behaves much the same way towards Azurites, and for much the same reason.

Kish

2013-12-28, 04:03 AM

If I may ask, what's wrong about Cliffport's culture?

I implied that I was the only person I'd ever seen say anything positive about it, so why are you asking me ? :smalltongue:

(Specifically, I remember two exchanges, in each of which I was the second person, that went something like, "Cliffport has laws that cripple their legal system." "No, see, magical detection methods actually are easily fooled, and not allowing them in court is a good law." and "Cliffport's government is ridiculously dysfunctional, as shown by the Linear Guild being able to terrorize it." "A group of mid-teen-levels adventurers could easily terrorize most cities in most campaign worlds.")

The Pilgrim

2013-12-28, 10:03 AM

Universally hated, I wish.

I for one love that character. Watching someone implode never felt so satisfying.

Keltest

2013-12-28, 11:17 AM

I'm pretty sure it's this. RC behaves much the same way towards Azurites, and for much the same reason.

The thing is, the goblins, and redcloak in particular, have specific reasons to hate the Azurites. Whether or not it was a good act, they launched many attacks on goblin villages. We don't really have any evidence of a similar level of aggression from the elves towards the humans of the western continent.

Im sure theres some unexplained backstory where she interacted with an elf and came out worse for it, but at the moment we don't know what that backstory is.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-28, 08:47 PM

Well, obviously, my syntax changed because the points I'm addressing changed. If I'd written my response to Sotharsyl according to your exacting standards, because I am obviously prescient, it might have read something like this:

"Why should any reader want to defend elven attitudes towards the humans and lizardfolk to their south to the same extent they defend the attitudes of, for example, the Azurites towards goblins (which are presumably shared to some extent by the goblins' other human neighbors)1? The story spent three books introducing us to the Azurites, affording the readers the opportunity to get to know and care about them. The elves, by contrast, aren't important, and only exist in the story at all because Vaarsuvius isn't a unique being or the last of her kind".

The point is the same. It is more important that we sympathize with the Azurites (who stand in for humanity in terms of Redcloak's grand narrative; which I and other readers have - perhaps mistakenly - muddled up with the comic's grand narrative) than it is that we sympathize with the elves.

1In both cases the attitude, or at least the policy, is "we ought to keep that other group from living where we live".

So you feel that because the people of Cliffport have substantial portions of books 2, 3 and 4 devoted to them, Redcloak has grounds to complain that he only got an entire prequel book devoted to himself and his younger brother, their doomed hometown (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoomedHometown), their campaign to fulfill the plan, their hook-up with Xykon, and their ultimate falling out? That prequel book goes a long way to illustrating the point that not all the Goblins of the "OotS"-verse are as Evil as Redcloak or Jirix, that the Pregrine Commander is a racist, and that The Plan is Evil.
Said prequel book also has earned a spot above the month of August, with a beautifully rendered scene from the battle for Lirian's Grove. Suck it Heavily Templated Snail!

If I may ask, what's wrong about Cliffport's culture?

You might have meant that an overwhelming majority of people did not have anything to say about it, either good or bad, and then I'd agree... because it felt to me that Cliffport was supposed to be a Neutral place, essentially mirroring our own modern, Western society. From what we've seen in the comic I think one could live a very decent life as a Good person in Cliffport, and die happy of old age. (Does that make me the second person ever to say something positive about it? :P)

Yeah, what is so bad about Cliffport? They seem pretty Lawful Neutral or True Neutral, but the streets are clean, the cops are honest (if a bit slow on the uptake) and there is a devotion to civil liberties. If my 12th level Human Sorcerer PC had to choose one of the cities in "OotS" to retire to, Cliffport would be at the top of his list. (Especially compared to crime-ridden Greysky City, arid Sandsedge, anti-Human Gobbotopia, and the blandness of Nextdoor. :smallwink:)

In a D&D world... any civilized place, where there are rules, laws, and mortal justice, and where you can buy food and find work... is likely a haven of peace and wellbeing, yes. No?

No. In the "Ravenloft" campaign setting, those people selling you food and providing you a place to sleep for the night are probably Werewolves. Or Wolfweres. Or Wererats. Or Doppelgangers. Or Skin Thieves. Or Ghosts able to manifest as corporeal beings. Or Red Widows.

As for places that impose mortal law and order, Falkovnia makes the Empire of Blood look like a retirement home in Florida, Borca is run by feuding cousins out to leach every cent you own, Nova Vaasa is run by a corrupt prince backed by a strict church, Lamordia is governed by an ailing lord whose daughter runs his household, and Sithicus is tyrannized by a crazy Dwarven Lycanthrope with syphilis. The only exception is Mordent, where the local lord and mayor of Mordentshire look out for the best interests of the people. As for Dementlieu it...

...

...

is. fine. Dementlieu. is. fine. we're. fine. we're. all. fine...

how. are. you?

Paseo H

2013-12-28, 11:10 PM

As for places that impose mortal law and order, Falkovnia makes the Empire of Blood look like a retirement home in Florida, Borca is run by feuding cousins out to leach every cent you own, Nova Vaasa is run by a corrupt prince backed by a strict church, Lamordia is governed by an ailing lord whose daughter runs his household, and Sithicus is tyrannized by a crazy Dwarven Lycanthrope with syphilis. The only exception is Mordent, where the local lord and mayor of Mordentshire look out for the best interests of the people. As for Dementlieu it...

...

...

is. fine. Dementlieu. is. fine. we're. fine. we're. all. fine...

how. are. you?

You're giving me creepypasta flashbacks with all that.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-29, 08:58 PM

You're giving me creepypasta flashbacks with all that.

Sorry. I blacked out for a moment. I was about to dish some dirt on Dementlieu's upper class, especially the Lord-Govenour's assistant, Dominic D'Honaire, when I was inexplicably overcome with a Suggestion not to do so. Moral of the story: the Fourth Wall will not protect you from a Darklord looking to keep his image spotless. :smalleek:

MReav

2013-12-29, 10:01 PM

Yeah, what is so bad about Cliffport?

Well, if nothing else, their prison system leaves something to be desired. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) The idea of a prisoner dying of poor conditions despite only being there at most a few days means something's not quite up to par.

Keltest

2013-12-29, 10:02 PM

Well, if nothing else, their prison system leaves something to be desired. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) The idea of a prisoner dying of poor conditions despite only being there at most a few days means something's not quite up to par.

We have seen a grand total of 2 competent officers, one of whom is not on speaking terms with his head right now. That comic is far more telling about the police than the jails.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-29, 10:16 PM

We have seen a grand total of 2 competent officers, one of whom is not on speaking terms with his head right now. That comic is far more telling about the police than the jails.

Intelligence and Wisdom are clearly the dump stats for CPPD officers. They also don't spend ranks on Sense Motive. :smalltongue:

davidbofinger

2014-01-01, 07:29 AM

Keltest

2014-01-01, 08:29 AM

Laurin hates the elves because they have all the good stuff and leave the humans the dregs. Redcloak hates humans because they have all the good stuff and leave the goblins the dregs. They're so near, and yet so far, from being allies.

I thought redcloak hated humans (more than normal for goblins anyway) because they went all Alice's Restaurant Massacree on the local goblins?

Liliet

2014-01-02, 03:31 PM

I thought redcloak hated humans (more than normal for goblins anyway) because they went all Alice's Restaurant Massacree on the local goblins?

Yep. There is nothing resembling equality in their situation so long as elves don't engage in genocide against humans.

zimmerwald1915

2014-01-02, 03:44 PM

Yep. There is nothing resembling equality in their situation so long as elves don't engage in genocide against humans.
I'm curious...how do you imagine the closure of borders is enforced if not with exclusionary violence? And how do you imagine that a minority-free nation-state is achieved without some kind of ethnic cleansing?

warrl

2014-01-02, 03:47 PM

I'm curious...how do you imagine the closure of borders is enforced if not with exclusionary violence? And how do you imagine that a minority-free nation-state is achieved without some kind of ethnic cleansing?

In a young world, a minority-free state is achieved by establishing and guarding the borders before any beings of the sorts you wish to exclude arrive.

And while closing the borders might require exclusionary violence, it does not require CROSSING the border with genocidal intent - like the Paladins of Azure City did when they went on goblin-slaying crusades.

martianmister

2014-01-02, 04:02 PM

An evil empire with big resources is better than one with little resources. It's also possible that Laurin's "start of darkness" is similar to Redcloak's.

Liliet

2014-01-02, 04:28 PM

I'm curious...how do you imagine the closure of borders is enforced if not with exclusionary violence? And how do you imagine that a minority-free nation-state is achieved without some kind of ethnic cleansing?
...You have pretty vivid imagination.

1) The northern part of the continent is separated with the mountains. It might just be next to impossible to cross them if you don't have money to pay for an air or water travel, which (your lack of money) is the problem to begin with.
2) Elves usually enforce closed borders with illusions and enchantments. They are elves, they live in hidden enchanted forests and don't need violence where humans would, it's part of their lore.
3) It hasn't been stated anywhere that the elves' nation is minority-free. They are just a majority. And people living in the desert don't need to be prohibited from entering the elves' land to feel resentful about their own land not being so plentiful, I assure you.
4) For all we know, elves do provide some food and medical care to humans in the desert, it's just not enough to make life tolerable in a freaking DESERT.

You are making some really, really weird assumptions there.

PS I have just thought of an interesting scenario. Imagine that elves are actually trying to influence politics on the continent, and do in fact provide resources to the states that satisfy some conditions, like prohibiting slavery. Of course, they don't provide anything to the Empires given their attitude, which kinda leaves them at a disadvantage (for example, imagine a minor nation that would be too much trouble to conquer and that would otherwise readily agree to be "patronized" by one of the empires but that doesn't do it now because it would mean the end to the elves' support which is more valuable than what the empire would be willing to provide), and it's a problem Laurin has been struggling with recently.

This would even explain why she was so mad about an elf telling her what to do.

Koo Rehtorb

2014-01-02, 04:54 PM

CaDzilla

2014-01-03, 09:27 AM

Just wan to point something out:Reptilia borders the Elven lands and a passageway next to the Goaway mountains. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)

Ghost Nappa

2014-01-03, 10:25 AM

I implied that I was the only person I'd ever seen say anything positive about it, so why are you asking me ? :smalltongue:

(Specifically, I remember two exchanges, in each of which I was the second person, that went something like, "Cliffport has laws that cripple their legal system." "No, see, magical detection methods actually are easily fooled, and not allowing them in court is a good law." and "Cliffport's government is ridiculously dysfunctional, as shown by the Linear Guild being able to terrorize it." "A group of mid-teen-levels adventurers could easily terrorize most cities in most campaign worlds.")

There's also the meta-reason that having spellcasters use magical divinations ruins the surprise needed to start Elan x Haley. You know it to be true, if Cliffport didn't have reasonably sensible privacy concerns in the face of magical detection our team would be one couple short.

An evil empire with big resources is better than one with little resources. It's also possible that Laurin's "start of darkness" is similar to Redcloak's.

I doubt that Laurin decided to become an "end-justify-the-means" evil person because her race was persecuted and murdered out of fear that one of them might rise up and threaten one of five locations that has an elaborate magical barrier-thing holding together the fabric of the universe, pervert it's magic, offer it to her dark god so that said dark god can then blackmail all of the other deities so that her race won't be persecuted from their moment of inception.

I think she's more miffed about having to tough it out in the comparatively resource deficient desert for her childhood.

She is a hypocrite like Redcloak though. So I guess they share that.