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Geneticist
2007-01-17, 03:19 PM
So I'm playing a monk for the first time, and I have a question. I know that people have made cases that the monks are underpowered as well as overpowered, so my question is why. I know some of the underpowered arguments, but I would like to hear both sides of the argument.

Akennedy
2007-01-17, 03:25 PM
My idea is this: Be a monk, then take two levels in rogue and take the feat asthetic rogue, stack unarmed damage. take two weapon fighting as soon as possible and by the end you have around six or seven attacks and you are always armed. Now, imagine sneak attacking with every hit when you flank or the like and having enhanced fists. However, even with this combo I don't play monks, I like using a sword because when you loot a dragon you get absolutly nothing, at all.

Green Bean
2007-01-17, 03:27 PM
The people who argue that Monks are underpowered usually say that it's because it's very difficult to do damage with them. While a fighter can get a +whatever sword of something, Monks don't have that option because most of their abilities are based on unarmed strikes (which are difficult to enchant) or Monk weapons (which are terrible)

Those who say they're overpowered cite Vow of Poverty, which gives you stat bonuses in exchange for not using expensive magic items. Since Monks don't really get to wield weapons anyways, and already have awesome saves, that combo can be considered overpowered because the character doesn't actually lose that much.

Hannes
2007-01-17, 03:30 PM
I sense a disturbance in the OotS... Aang, OotS style? Wow. Anyway, 20th level monk + spring attack. I drool over it. Add boots of speed.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-17, 03:35 PM
20th level monk + Spring Attack + Bounding Assault + Rapid Blitz gets him three attacks on a spring.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 04:22 PM
I have an itch to play a Monk with Whirling Steel Strike and Two Weapon Fighting (to negate Off Hand Attack Bonus penalties and allow him to choose between Unarmed or Long Sword attacks). Not optimum, but potentially fun.

Green Bean
2007-01-17, 04:35 PM
I sense a disturbance in the OotS... Aang, OotS style? Wow. Anyway, 20th level monk + spring attack. I drool over it. Add boots of speed.

If you check homebrew, there's a couple of other OotS style Avatar images, along with lovely rules for putting Benders in your campaign.


But back on topic, I find that Monks shine taking out strategically important enemies with lower hitpoints (like enemy spellcasters), because their strong Will and Reflex saves make it difficult for the spellcasters to stop them, and low damage output doesn't matter as much.

Telonius
2007-01-17, 04:47 PM
The "overpowered" crew falls into two camps, mainly. First, there's the VoP folks, as mentioned above. Second, the people who look at the weird abilities they get and say, "Whoah, just look at all that cool stuff! There's a special ability in, like, every level! That looks pretty overpowered to me." Personally I don't think that they're overpowered in either case. VoP puts them up a notch, but nothing approaching the cheesiness that is CoDzilla.

Their big problems are lack of full Base Attack progression, lower hit die, and the need to depend on several ability stats (Wisdom for AC and Quivering Palm, Dex for AC, Strength for damage output, Con to keep them alive). It's this stuff that makes people think they're under-powered. I personally think they're slightly under-powered, with VoP and (particularly) the Intuitive Attack feat from BoED, bringing them up to a decently serviceable character.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-17, 07:31 PM
In my experience, monks shine in low magic campaigns since the fighters aren't getting those powerful weapons that make the open-hand attacks look silly. The monks' special abilities also look better when the other party members don't have access to items that duplicate them. For instance, dimension dooring 1/day can be a life-saver, but if everyone has a helm of teleportation anyway it is insignificant.

Now also in my experience, few campaigns meet the wealth-by-level guidelines set forth in the DMG. In fact we have this envy problem when someone's character dies and they bring in a new one. Even at a level lower, the new character still usually has better equipment than any of the existing characters. And you really shouldn't be going, "Yay I died! Now I can bring in a character with some good stuff!" But it happens, so in these campaigns monk looks great.

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 07:54 PM
Monks generally shine as what MMO'ers would call "off-tanks", that is, secondary melee type characters who are able to provde various types of support. Monks are able flankers (what with dimension door and the insane movement bonuses) and can set up some pretty hardcore (at later levels) flurry action. For monks who don't take vow of poverity, several specific monk items exist solely to turn you into a two fisted brawling machine, and spellcasters visibly cringe around you. If you know any experienced players or are good at research, monks have some downright criminal feats available to them. And you're the only core base class (that is, a class you can take at level 1 in the PHB) that can deliver an instant kill without magic. Have fun.

Edit: Whats CoDzilla?

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 08:03 PM
20th level monk + Spring Attack + Bounding Assault + Rapid Blitz gets him three attacks on a spring.
Rapid Blitz requires a bab of 18.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 08:11 PM
People who think they're overpowered generally, well, don't actually know how the mechanics work.

-Vow of Poverty: it sucks. Seriously, go through the bonuses, and compare them to what you could get with well-spent gold (check the DMG, p. 136, for Wealth-By-Level guidelines). You will be worse off, AND more limited (look, a flying monster). Sure, monks don't need weapons. So what? They need tons of other gear to remain remotely effective.

-And that's why monks suck: they're completely ineffective. Ooh, 1d8+2! That sure is a lot of damage! Wait, no. Stunning Fist! Wait, the monster saved. Look, you're getting full attacked! You die.
Monks can't DO anything. They're okay at keeping themselves alive, as long as they don't get into heavy melee, but they just don't contribute anything each round.


Monks are poorly designed. They're supposed to be able to hit theings, but between their low BAB, lower STR or DEX due to Multiple Attribute Dependency, and lack of enhancement bonus unless they get a GMW/Greater Magic Fang tossed their way, they have a hard time hitting, they do little damage when they hit, and they don't have the AC or HP to survive melee with things that *do* have a high BAB and STR. Their abilities don't synergize and sometimes even screw each other over--what good is having a high mobility if you have to stay in one spot so you can use your Flurry? Improved Disarm--yeah, you've get 3/4 BAB and unarmed strikes are light weapons, good luck with that. Improved Trip--either you went Weapon Finesse and high-DEX, or you can sort of almost trip... but your AC is terrible.

Basically, monks are underpowered because they can't do anything.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-17, 08:15 PM
If your really worried about the whole magic weapon thing (or, rather, the lack of it) look into the Kensai PrC in... oh, damn, I've forgotten... but they can enchant a monk weapon or even their own fist and it keeps your monk abbilities progressing... or even just with core, be a dwarven monk/dwarven defender/duelist with a Siangham! Woot for AC!

Edit: I think the best reason to play a monk though, really, is for the rp-related stuff... and the kung-fu dodgeing anything and everything that comes your way.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 08:18 PM
Great Scout types, though, Monks. Plenty of Skill points to invest in Sneak, Hide, Spot and Listen.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 08:22 PM
Demand your right to play "Kung Fu Fighting" every single time you enter combat, too. Let the party and DM know that you have seen every Bruce Lee movie in existence. Spend fifty episodes training, and drag out every fight by stopping mid-fight to reminisce about why you're fighting. Don't try to stop enemies from powering up, either.

Geneticist
2007-01-17, 08:24 PM
I have to admit that I have been thinking about multiclassing to a Kensai for a while now

Matthew
2007-01-17, 08:25 PM
Yeah, it's also the case that if you are going to be a Monk, you better have some damn good Attribute Scores. As Bears says, they are dependent on so many Attributes it's not funny - Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom. You really need at least +2 in all of these to begin play and ideally more.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 08:30 PM
If that's your worry, why not turtle build one? Make a wizard that raises a cohort monk, your real prize, and use the primary character to make lots of manuals and tomes for the monk. After you've got a satisfactory monk, ditch the wizard altogether.

Sure, wizards are more powerful and blah blah blah whatever. Monks are still cooler.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 08:32 PM
Monks aren't overpowered, they are underpowered at high lvls. I will discuss the arguements usually made for why monks are overpowered.

Monks are Overpowered Arguement 1) Monk and vow of poverty.

Some people say monks are overpowered with vow of poverty. This is not true, monks are just as dependent on items as the rest of the "fighter type characters." They need items to boost there versatility. Additionally you can get better stats with items than vow of poverty for a monk. Vow of poverty is a trap for a monk.

A sample analysis by someone else, there has been numerous ones but I am just posting one I bookmarked for this arguement is old, and is repeated lots of times.

Monk20
760kGP to spend
Bracers of Armor +8 (down to 696,000)
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (down to 646,000)
Periapt of Wisdom +6 (down to 610,000)
Gloves of Dexterity +6 ( down to 574,000) (VoP monk has +22 AC, just these four items give me +19)
Ring of Sustenance and Mind Shielding (down to 563,500)
Ring of Protection +5 (down to 513,500) (passed the VoP monks AC)
Boots of the Winterland (down to 511,000)
(Heh.. just noticed that Permanent Greater Magic Fang does.... nothing for a VoP monk. His fists already get a +5 enhancement bonus at 20th level)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (down to 486,000)
Wings of Flying (for when theyre needed) (down to 432,000)
+4 Wisdom Tome
+4 Dex Tome
+4 Con Tome (down to 102,000) (just felt like wasting money)
Mask of the Skull (down to 80,000)
Mantle of Faith (down to 4,000)

I'll stop there. My AC is higher, my Stunning Fist DC is higher, I have more HPs (maybe, depends on how you allocate the bonuses you get), I have 2 more bonus to all saves, you have 5 more DR/evil than I do, True Seeing, Regen, 15 to all the Energy Resistances, and freedom of movement.

I can also fly if I want. And I also wasted 330k because I was bored. Plus the death attack 1/day is pretty cool.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1633357&postcount=19
I agree with this analysis, but he made one slight error, you can't have a amulet of natural armor and a periapt of wisdom +6 at those item costs. They both occupy the same slot. Now the DMG has rules where you can add two items together in one slot at an increased cost (I don't have my books on me but if I remember its 1.5x) or you can make the item slotless for 2x. Wealth by level is what keeps these items balance for they are more expensive.

If you want to make a good Vow of Poverty character do a Monk 1/Druid 19. The exalted benefits stack with wildshape, and the spells give you versatility.
Monks are Overpowered Arguement 2) Monks are overpowered for they are difficult to kill due to 2a) high saves/spell resistance and 2b) there high speed they will just spring attack and run away.

Arguements against 2a) Yes monks get some spell resistance but a pure monk vs a pure wizard only spell resistance is only effective if the wizard rolls a 9 or less. This is before the mage who has multiple ways to boost spell resistance boosts them. (If he has spell mastery, he always rolls 10 for spell resistance, assay spell resistance, spell penetration *note spell penetration is a bad feat for there are better ways to beat spell resistance* etc)

Yes monks can be hassles for non property played mages. Yes they have all good saves. A mage though is the king of battefield control. A monk can't reach a flying mage. A monk with the spell forcecage and dimensional anchor cast on him is screwed. If just the spell forcecage is cast on him he can get out of it, but only once a day, the next spell will screw him. Remember a mage doesn't have to target a monk with a save spell to be able to effect him. A mage doesn't even have to target a monk, he can target the enviorment.

Best case scenario the monk gets close enough to hit the mage, the mage has contingency teleport so monks don't get that one attempt to hit the mage. If the mage doesn't have that contingency teleport, he only gets 1 attack in for he had to make a move action and then perform a standard action. The mage can get away next round.

Coupled with the traditionally poor damage/bab a monk has his only benefits are against those pesky mages, and he isn't even that effective agains them. Against everything else he has the same problem as a warlock, a person with good defenses but doesn't contribute much to combat. A monk may be the last person standing in a fight while his party starts dying, but if he can't do damage, than the monk can't knock down that balor, and thus the balor kills the rest of the party before focusing on the monk.

2b) People say monks can just spring attack all day long, well first a pure monk won't qualify for Rapid Blitz which requires a bab of 18, the best you can do in a 20 lvl build with partial bab is Monk 8/Full bab 12 and grab Rapid blitz with a fight feat at 20. Second if you are going to make an argument that a monk should play a "skirmisher" then you should compare him to another skirmish build, such as a Rogue 20 archer, or a real skirmisher Scout 20. Both builds will do more damage, and have more effect on the battlefield. Second if you are doing this, what is the rest of the party going to do? You may kill the monster 5-10 rounds later, but until then its going to eat your wizard, your cleric, and your tank. Remember you have to be a significant enough of a threat on the battlefield (or perceived to be as significant enough of a threat) else the monsters will go straight for the easier targets. Remember this is a team game you are supposed to be helping your party and not be a hindrance.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 08:33 PM
Heh, that does sound quite Monkish, as well. Really, their Masters should be passing down the secrets in those Tomes.

Jack Mann
2007-01-17, 08:44 PM
Of course, the problem with the cohort idea is that the DM has to allow it, since the build of the cohort is entirely up to him (as well as the decision to let you play the monk when the wizard is gone).

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 08:45 PM
I am inclined to disagree Bears, it is my belief that Vow of Poverity is a stepping stone to great power. Here we go...

The optimal VoP is to be a first level human monk: Sacred Vow, VoP, immeadiate +4 AC (and various benefits), +1 more AC at level 4. In addition to its standard benefits, you gain an exalted feat every other level. thats 10. 10. Take Vow of Non-Violence at level two, and Vow of Peace (hereby VoPc) at level three, or level 4 if you don't want to "waste a feat". VoPc is 6 AC, (three +2 bonuses) and notice the footnote, if you also have vow of poverty add an additional +2 to each of these bonuses. So we have base AC of 27 (10 + 5 VoP + 6 VoPc + 6 VoPC/Vop synergy), +dex, +wis; assuming you have even weak scores in both, it amounts to AC 29 at level four. Not to mention your fists count a +1 magic weapon. Exactly what do I have to fear from a full attack? And by no means, no means, does this diminish over time. Page 31 of BoED has the full break down. Don't forget the +8/+6/+4/+2 stat bonuses or the DR 10/evil, true seeing, and energy resistance. And your 8 more exalted feats. Also, you assume that a character entire wealth by level is given entirely in gold that the player can use to buy any item that strikes their fancy, as opposed to the DM's decision in what you receive. The VoP build is damn good, and i'll not let some one assume a level 20 cherry picker is a totally viable option. How many games start at level 20? and then why even bother min/maxing if you're going to play for one session?

Someone show me a build that doesn't rely on wantonly purchased magical goods. The player of VoP gets reliability

Matthew
2007-01-17, 08:46 PM
Of course, the problem with the cohort idea is that the DM has to allow it, since the build of the cohort is entirely up to him (as well as the decision to let you play the monk when the wizard is gone).

Absolutely true, of course.

What is the best way to build up a Monk's Attributes?

So far I am thinking:

Periapt of Wisdom +6 [36,00]
Belt of Giant Strength +6 [36,000]
Gauntlets of Dexterity +6 [36,000]

Suggestions for Constituton?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 08:47 PM
Sure, wizards are more powerful and blah blah blah whatever. Monks are still cooler.

No, they're not. "I don't wear armor and hit things with my bare hands! ZOMG I AM SO AWESOME EVEN THOUGH THAT IS THE WORST IDEA FOR FIGHTING THINGS EVER."

Matthew
2007-01-17, 08:53 PM
*Plays calming music*

Whirling Steel Strike and a Long Sword +5 should sort out one of those problems...

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 08:54 PM
No, they're not. "I don't wear armor and hit things with my bare hands! ZOMG I AM SO AWESOME EVEN THOUGH THAT IS THE WORST IDEA FOR FIGHTING THINGS EVER."

No, it isn't. Show a little respect.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 08:56 PM
I am inclined to disagree Bears, it is my belief that Vow of Poverity is a stepping stone to great power. Here we go...

The optimal VoP is to be a first level human monk: Sacred Vow, VoP, immeadiate +4 AC (and various benefits), +1 more AC at level 4. In addition to its standard benefits, you gain an exalted feat every other level. thats 10. 10. Take Vow of Non-Violence at level two, and Vow of Peace (hereby VoPc) at level three, or level 4 if you don't want to "waste a feat". VoPc is 6 AC, (three +2 bonuses) and notice the footnote, if you also have vow of poverty add an additional +2 to each of these bonuses. So we have base AC of 27 (10 + 5 VoP + 6 VoPc + 6 VoPC/Vop synergy), +dex, +wis; assuming you have even weak scores in both, it amounts to AC 29 at level four. Not to mention your fists count a +1 magic weapon. Exactly what do I have to fear from a full attack? And by no means, no means, does this diminish over time. Page 31 of BoED has the full break down. Don't forget the +8/+6/+4/+2 stat bonuses or the DR 10/evil, true seeing, and energy resistance. And your 8 more exalted feats. Also, you assume that a character entire wealth by level is given entirely in gold that the player can use to buy any item that strikes their fancy, as opposed to the DM's decision in what you receive.

I'm curious what magic items you have that replicate these effects.

Vow of Nonviolence and Peace are going to cause a lot of problems for your party. You know, whenever they want to kill something and take its stuff, like they do in D&D. You're also miscalculating--You don't get +6 from Vow of Peace and +6 more for having both Vows. Normally, the VoP benefits would overlap with the Vow of Peace benefits; Vow of Peace just increases your Vow of Poverty deflection, NA, and Exalted AC bonuses by two. Also, every time your party wants to kill things, you'll argue.

At low levels, the VoP guy comes out a little ahead. At high ones, VoP is pretty much useless. You can't even fly. Freedom of Movement? Ring of Freedom of Movement. True Seeing? Gem of Seeing. Level 20 characters have a lot of wealth, and they can sell their found loot and buy other things with it. Stat bonuses? Stat-boosting items and tomes. Energy resistance? Party spellcasters, not that between good Ref saves and Evasion you're worried.

You might not be able to buy anything you want and get all your wealth in gold--but you will have gold to spend, and you will be able to sell items and buy things with that gold. You can buy items in the DMG in towns and cities; that's how D&D is designed. If you play in some wacky, low-magic house-ruled game where you can't find a +6 stat-boosting item in a metropolis, sure, go with Vow of Poverty.
If your DM remotely follows the wealth-by-level guidelines--which is what D&D is balanced [sic] for--then Vow of Poverty doesn't help you. At higher levels, it actually hurts you.


Here's my question: okay. You're a VoP monk.
What do you do, each combat round? How about against a flying opponent? And how does what you do each combat round make the party want to keep you around?


No, it isn't. Show a little respect.
Yes, it is. There's a reason people invented weapons. And even in D&D, monks are better off using weapons. "Respect"? Let's not deal in vague, essentially meaningless demands, here.



Whirling Steel Strike and a Long Sword +5 should sort out one of those problems...

It helps, but then you're spending a feat and some gold to render one of your major class features (unarmed strike and its damage) useless. This is the sort of thing that makes monks poorly designed.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 09:01 PM
But they aren't regular people. Their special abilities reflect this.

They're what Bruce Lee always played in movies. A martial artist so bad ass, he bends space and time around his own body. Sure, a fighter might have a cool sword and a barbarian might have a cool axe. But does their very existence defy physics?

Frosty Flake
2007-01-17, 09:03 PM
TimeWizard:

Taking Vow of Non-violence/Peace would make you an even worse fighter... cuz you can't fight. Some great rolplaying, of course, untill you have to decide between stopping your party from killing the orcs in their sleep or losing all those nifty abbilities as you fail your vow... doesn't really fly in your average DnD game. Course, there's always the possibility it's going to be far from average.

Edit: Oh, Bears beat me to the punch there...

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-17, 09:03 PM
It helps, but then you're spending a feat and some gold to render one of your major class features (unarmed strike and its damage) useless. This is the sort of thing that makes monks poorly designed.
Which is why I house rule that ki focus weapons deal a monks' base unarmed damage if it's higher than the weapon's normal base damage.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 09:04 PM
Yes, as they fall of a cliff and dust themselves off.

Regardless--even D&D monks are better off using a weapon than wading in bare-handed. See above re: Whirling Steel Strike.

You know why Bruce Lee was cool? Because he was incredibly good. He was better than everyone else and beat them up.
Monks might strive fo rthat sort of cool, but they don't get it--because they're *worse* than everyone else, and *can't* beat them up.
And I'm willing to back that up by fighting someone's Vow-of-Poverty Monk with a Complete Warrior Samurai, of all things, who has gold as per the wealth-by-level table.

Edit: sure, you can house-rule monks into viability. Full BAB, what you said, giving them actually useful abilities, et cetera.
But that doesn't really have anything to do with the Monks we're talking about, which is the class as it's printed, since everyone will have different house rules.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 09:05 PM
Wait, no one else lets monks use enchanted gauntlets to enhance their martial prowess?

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 09:08 PM
Vow of Nonviolence and Peace are going to cause a lot of problems for your party. You know, whenever they want to kill something and take its stuff, like they do in D&D. You're also miscalculating--You don't get +6 from Vow of Peace and +6 more for having both Vows. Normally, the VoP benefits would overlap with the Vow of Peace benefits; Vow of Peace just increases your Vow of Poverty deflection, NA, and Exalted AC bonuses by two. Also, every time your party wants to kill things, you'll argue.

At low levels, the VoP guy comes out a little ahead. At high ones, VoP is pretty much useless. You can't even fly. Freedom of Movement? Ring of Freedom of Movement. True Seeing? Gem of Seeing. Level 20 characters have a lot of wealth, and they can sell their found loot and buy other things with it. Stat bonuses? Stat-boosting items and tomes. Energy resistance? Party spellcasters, not that between good Ref saves and Evasion you're worried.

Here's my question: okay. You're a VoP monk.
What do you do, each combat round? How about against a flying opponent? And how does what you do each combat round make the party want to keep you around?


Yes, it is. There's a reason people invented weapons. And even in D&D, monks are better off using weapons. "Respect"? Let's not deal in vague, essentially meaningless demands, here.

I don't agree with you on VoPc's AC bonus, it says "If you also have the Vow of Poverity feat, the deflection, natural and exalted bonuses of that feat all increase by +2" and the monk cannot kill, his team mates are free (although brow beaten with some thoughtful RP) to kill.

What does any melee character do against flying that supercedes his effective use of teammates? Let the Wizard and Cleric deal with that.

Also, 2d10 is not beaten by any weapon, unless you want to bring you know what into this, and that leads to the suffering of all.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 09:11 PM
Oh Man, a Monk versus a Complete Warrior Samurai. I would love to see that.

Monk's with Long Swords need to burn three Feats, sadly. You pretty much have to start out as a Fighter for a couple of levels and then go Monk to make it viable.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 09:13 PM
Wait, no one else lets monks use enchanted gauntlets to enhance their martial prowess?
That would be a reasonable house rule to do, but it isn't strictly the case. A monk can use an amulet of natural attacks to enchant his natural weapons, but the cost is enormous for it doesn't follow traditional weapon enchantment costs.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 09:15 PM
I don't agree with you on VoPc's AC bonus, it says "If you also have the Vow of Poverity feat, the deflection, natural and exalted bonuses of that feat all increase by +2 and the monk cannot kill, his team mates are free (although brow beaten with some thoughtful RP) to kill.

What does any melee character do against flying that supercedes his effective use of teammates? Let the Wizard and Cleric deal with that.

Also, 2d10 is not beaten by any weapon, unless you want to bring you know what into this, and that leads to the suffering of all.
2d10 = 11 average damage.
2d6 = 7 average damage. Congratulations. Your fists do 4 more average damage than a greatsword, at level 20. Truly, this makes you viable in combat.

Notice that Vow of Peace gives typed bonuses. Notice that Vow of Poverty also gives typed bonuses. If you have +3 NA, +3 Deflection, and +8 Exalted AC from Vow of Poverty, and +2 NA, +2 Deflection, and +2 Exalted AC from Vow of Peace... your bonuses won't stack. You will have +3 NA, +3 Def, +7 Ex AC, not +5/+5/+9.
Vow of Peace will, however, increase your Vow of Poverty bonuses by 2 each. This will up it to +5/+5/+9... not +7/+7/+11.
Typed Bonuses. Are they so difficult?

And no, your Vows makes your friends suck. Read Vow of Nonviolence, the prereq for Vow of Peace. Anyone who slays a helpless or defenseless foe around you gets increasing penalties that will make them suck.


As for flying--other melee characters have equipment. It lets them fly. They fly up and fight flying opponents. As a Vow of Poverty monk, you... just kind of sit there.

You've also failed to mention just what you'd be doing each combat round that would make people want to join up with you to go fight a balor/dragon/half-fiend half-dragon celestial Catgirl Ninja/Dread Pirate/whatever.

Raum
2007-01-17, 09:15 PM
Part of what makes monks less effective than other fighter types is Power Attack. All else being equal, an NPC warrior of the same level as a monk will average higher damage than the monk does simply by Power Attacking with a two handed weapon. At least rogues get Sneak Attack to help keep up. Monks are kind of left in the cold.

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 09:16 PM
TimeWizard:

Taking Vow of Non-violence/Peace would make you an even worse fighter... cuz you can't fight. Some great rolplaying, of course, untill you have to decide between stopping your party from killing the orcs in their sleep or losing all those nifty abbilities as you fail your vow... doesn't really fly in your average DnD game. Course, there's always the possibility it's going to be far from average.

Edit: Oh, Bears beat me to the punch there...

Don't know where you get that from. You can't deal Leathal damage, feel free to whip out all the subdual damage you want (within reason). The abhorring violence thing is mostly an assumed RP trait, and besides if you're a Good character you're first idea of every situation shouldn't be to whip out the bladed justice. For a good idea here everyone should read the Wizards explanation of the feats.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 09:16 PM
Hell with Power Attack, n NPC warrior of the same level will average higher damage just by having a magic weapon and a higher Strength bonus (much higher, if the monk went with Weapon Finesse) that he gets 1.5x STR to damage with when using a two-handed weapon, as opposed to the monk's 1x.

Edit: people HAVE read the feats. I don't think you have. Vow of Nonviolence applies real, active penalties. If you let your friends kill monsters, you lose the vow. Same for assassins, the BBEG, et cetera. Everything you ever defeat will come back to haunt you. You will be actively hurting the party.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 09:17 PM
But one of my favorite homebrewed weapons were the "Hands of St. Cuthbert". Firstly, it augments the monk's unarmed critical threat to x3. Any monk that uses them can force any enemy hit to tell any particular truth asked of them. If they either refuse to answer truthfully or cannot answer truthfully, they take automatic critical damage. This may only be used once per round, after it turned out to be overly easy to abuse otherwise.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 09:18 PM
There is a simple solution to all this. Monks suck get over it. Play a swordsage with the unarmed strike adapation with greater mighty wallop cast on his fists (oh **** I just mentioned ToB, wait for this thread to turn into a pro/hate ToB thread, why don't we forget I just said that :smallwink: )

Or perhaps play a Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Full Bab 9. You do full monk damage if you have the feat superior unarmed strike (yes ToB again, but it has nothing really to do with ToB) and a monk belt, and you can flurry with no penalties. You can also flurry with any weapon, but if you have Races of the Dragon you want to be using your fists for you have your party wizard cast Greater Mighty Wallop on your fists.

Hell a Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Kensai 9 is better than a pure monk.

The monk base class has bad mechanics for a player who wants to play the monk archetype.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 09:19 PM
Yeah, Swordsages are like monks, only actually viable and cool.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 09:21 PM
Alright, that's it. I'm ordering a copy of ToB off of B&N right now. The promise of a cooler monk is irresistable.

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 09:21 PM
Every round? assuming negotiations failed you mean, despite the Diplomacy bonuses. Every round I'm dealing a meager four more damage then a greatsword, and I took touch of golden ice with one of my many bonus exalted feats, so that any touch drops my opponents dex by 1d6/2d6. Then I might get around to not dying, also i'd like to point out that allies receive penalties for killing helpless enemies. Helpless is key. If you've got a helpless enemy you've already won the battle.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 09:24 PM
What does any melee character do against flying that supercedes his effective use of teammates? Let the Wizard and Cleric deal with that.


Okay wizard/clerics take care of flying monsters. What are you taking care of again?

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 09:24 PM
You don't like monks? fine. No one is forcing you to play one. If you want a level 20 optimized character go build one and be done with it. If you're looking for something beyond the norm for DnD, then you can come back and talk to me about Monks and VoP. Congradulations, the argument goes to the monk haters.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 09:26 PM
Every round? assuming negotiations failed you mean, despite the Diplomacy bonuses. Every round I'm dealing a meager four more damage then a greatsword, and I took touch of golden ice with one of my many bonus exalted feats, so that any touch drops my opponents dex by 1d6/2d6. Then I might get around to not dying, also i'd like to point out that allies receive penalties for killing helpless enemies. Helpless is key. If you've got a helpless enemy you've already won the battle.
Do your remeber the save dc for touch of golden ice, the save dc that doesn't scale with lvl? Touch of golden ice is good for like the first 4 lvls, then it becomes useless for everybody makes the save dc.

You also have to explain what you are going to be doing during battle, sure you may be the last guy standing, but the rest of the party is dead. You not dying is not an advantage unless you can do something.

Maclav
2007-01-17, 09:28 PM
Alright, that's it. I'm ordering a copy of ToB off of B&N right now. The promise of a cooler monk is irresistable.

ToB is the best book to happen to D&D since core.


Every round? assuming negotiations failed you mean, despite the Diplomacy bonuses. Every round I'm dealing a meager four more damage then a greatsword, and I took touch of golden ice with one of my many bonus exalted feats, so that any touch drops my opponents dex by 1d6/2d6. Then I might get around to not dying, also i'd like to point out that allies receive penalties for killing helpless enemies. Helpless is key. If you've got a helpless enemy you've already won the battle.

While you are spending your 10 consecutive full-round actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions) using diplomacy cheese, I'll be perforating my ear drums so I can't understand you. :)

Ohhh DC 14 fort save. Effective for a few levels.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 09:28 PM
You don't like monks? fine. No one is forcing you to play one. If you want a level 20 optimized character go build one and be done with it. If you're looking for something beyond the norm for DnD, then you can come back and talk to me about Monks and VoP. Congradulations, the argument goes to the monk haters.
I LOVE THE MONK ARCHETYPE

I hate the fact that monk's suck.

I am Phoenix00 in this thread.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=773458

I wish wizard releases Complete Monk as its next supplement. Monk's need the love :smallfrown:

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 09:30 PM
Diplomacy is for before the wanton violence. it's not an effective strategy in battle. And I suppose im doing what any melee'er does, hit the things on the ground, got five attacks, some of them gotta hit.

Edit: Nobody else has any love for Monks? Nobody? Oh well, more for me then.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 09:30 PM
Every round? assuming negotiations failed you mean, despite the Diplomacy bonuses. Every round I'm dealing a meager four more damage then a greatsword, and I took touch of golden ice with one of my many bonus exalted feats, so that any touch drops my opponents dex by 1d6/2d6. Then I might get around to not dying, also i'd like to point out that allies receive penalties for killing helpless enemies. Helpless is key. If you've got a helpless enemy you've already won the battle.

If you want negotiations, play a bard. They play the diplomancer game much, much better, and can actually contribute something other than 11 points of damage a hit, which is absolutely terrible.

-How are you hitting opponents, with your lower STR (or Dex, if you took Finesse) and 3/4 BAB?
-Why are you assuming that The DC 13 or 14 saving throw on Touch of Golden Ice will be failed more than 1 in 20 times?
-Not dying is not a contribution. A commoner can just stay at home and manage it.
-Helpless or defenseless enemies. There are PLENTY of times that you need to finish something off. Hold Person + Coup de Grace? Nope, can't do it anymore. Finish off those orcs you knocked out rather than having them chase you when they wake up? Nope. Kill the BBEG? Nope. All those enemies the wizard put to sleep or otherwise disabled? Nope, sorry. And so on. Vow of Nonviolence very sharply hinders your party's tactics (and fluff). It's mechanically forcing your vow on them. Never take it without your party's consent.


A high-level fighter can contribute an attack routine of, say, +40/+35/+30/+25/+40 each round, for 2d6+30 or so a hit. He'll Power Attack to up the damage significantly. He can also do a variety of other things, including a focus on tripping, disarming, AoOs, and the like--and that's a fighter, one of the worst classes at level 20. How about you? Again--what do you do? concretely, not vaguely. If you crunch the numbers, you'll see that you'll have a low attack bonus, low damage, and, like we've been saying, have completely negligible contributions each combat round.

Time, "you don't like monks, don't play one" is basically you saying "stop it! Stop proving me wrong!"
YOU said that they're good and that Vow of Poverty is good. We're telling you that no, no it isn't. Your argument is... if we don't like monks, don't talk about them.
BRILLIANT.


Edit: here, I'll do the crunch for you.
Level 20 monk: Let's call it 16 DEX, 16 WIS, 14 CON, 12 STR to start with. He's got +8 Dex, +6 WIS, +4 CON, +2 STR from VoP. He's got Exalted Strike +5 from VoP. He has +10 Exalted AC, +3 Deflection AC, +2 Natural Armor AC. He put 4 level-up stats into Dex; his Dex is now 28. His AC is 10 + 10 (Exalted) + 3 (Deflection) + 2 (Natural Armor) + 6 (22 WIS) = 31. That's not very good for a level 20 character. Very poor, in fact. An equipped monk could have much more.
He has a +15 BAB and Weapon Finesse. His Dex is 28, for a +9. Exalted Strike adds +5. Maybe he even took Weapon Focus as a feat, +1. His total attack sequence when flurrying is... +34/+34/+34/+29/+24, for 2d10--no, let's optimize this guy a bit, he took Improved Natural Attack, for 4d8 damage, plus 2 from strength, plus 5 from Exalted Strike. That's an average of 4*4.5 + 7 = 25 damage a hit. A Balor has 39 AC with its Unholy Aura up. The monk's percentage to hit is 75/75/75/50/25, so his total damage is 3*(0.75*25) + 0.5*25 + 0.25*25 = 75. At level 20. Wooooo, that's really good for an optimized character! Except, of course, it isn't. The fighter gets that in two hits, in one if he Power Attacked for a bunch, and the fighter gets 5 attacks with a weapon of speed to the monk's six.
And, oh, yeah, he'll never actually get to make this full attack. The Balor is flying, so the VoP monk just can't reach it.
And even if he could, it's more mobile than he is, so he'll never make the full attack. He'll be making one attack a round, for 25 damage.
Yeah.
That's contributing, all right.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 09:31 PM
Diplomacy is for before the wanton violence. it's not an effective strategy in battle. And I suppose im doing what any melee'er does, hit the things on the ground, got five attacks, some of them gotta hit.

Yes eventually one of your five+hits will hit, but how much damage will it hit for?

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 09:34 PM
Yep, just me and my totally flawed arguments. I suppose I hit for 2d10 +5 +str, which is at +8 of what it would be normally

Druid
2007-01-17, 09:35 PM
Remind me, what's the save on touch of golden ice? Oh yeah, that's right, it’s pathetically low. I played a monk with that feat once and by level four it was nothing more than an annoyance for the DM who had to role fortitude saves every round.

And the monk's unarmed strike has higher base damage than a great sword; this does not mean that a monk will actually do more damage. The fighter/ barbarian/ whatever with the great sword will have a much higher strength bonus which he gets to multiply by 1.5 on his damage. That will probably make up for the monks extra damage right there. Add in weapon specialization, rage, favored enemy or whatever and the monk is left in the dust. Don't even get me started on what happens when power attack is figured in.

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 09:37 PM
Ok then, I'm wrong. You guys are right: VoP and monks in general are terrible. I was just trying to justify a style choice that was ultimately sub par.

Druid
2007-01-17, 09:42 PM
I like the idea of monks as well, but they're just plain weaker than other classes.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 09:44 PM
Ok then, I'm wrong. You guys are right: VoP and monks in general are terrible. I was just trying to justify a style choice that was ultimately sub par.
I understand Timewizard, I like the flavor of monks too. But to stay up in useful mechanically you are going to have to do one of three options.
1) Multiclass/Prestige out of monk (note you can still keep your monk flavor if you choose your other classes/feats right) or
2) Homebrew/Major Houserules.
3) Choose another class and replace/write the flavor so that is similar to a monk (such as a swordsage).

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 09:46 PM
What are some good monk Prestige classes? All I know of is Tattooed Monk.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 09:47 PM
Ok then, I'm wrong. You guys are right: VoP and monks in general are terrible. I was just trying to justify a style choice that was ultimately sub par.

There's nothing wrong with playing for style, as long as you don't mind not contributing much.

I'm just tired of people insisting that monks, VoP, or monks + VoP are somehow powerful when they're eminently not. I've even seen gaming groups that ban one, the other, or both, for power, and I gotta wonder what they're thinking.

Edit: there's another problem with monks--no good prestige classes.
Try War Mind, maybe dipping Psionic Fist for entry.
Or Shadow Sun Ninja in Tome of Battle.
Kensai works, but then there's no real reason to play a -monk-.

Maclav
2007-01-17, 09:50 PM
Swordsage does the "monk" so much better. Fun, effective and customizable.

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 09:53 PM
Thank Pelor I have the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. Im going to try to out monk the monk. On a related note, will there be other tome of battles? the title seems kinda weird otherwise.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 09:57 PM
What kind of prerequisites does a Monk need to become a Sword Sage? Does he need Martial Proficiency (X Sword), for instance?

[Edit]Oh wait, is Sword Sage a Base Class?

Nothing on the release schedule yet. I think they're keeping their options open.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 09:59 PM
Swordsage is a base class.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 10:01 PM
Yeah, realised that all too late.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 10:05 PM
When I want to play a badass martial artist, generally a kali-style TWFing dagger-wielder, I go Psychic Warrior 2/Swordsage X. Loads of fun, stylin', and effective.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-17, 10:09 PM
[shameless plug]Speaking of mixing psionics and martial arts, would any of you folks care to give me your opinion on this class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10605) I homebrewed up?

It's well past the "do not revive" date, so if anyone who does
look could PM me their opinions rather than post them, that would be appreciated.[/shameless plug]

Orzel
2007-01-17, 10:11 PM
Monks are overpowered if they're lucky or the settings favors them. If no they are slighting underpowered at any group roll.

Monks favor:
a low magic setting- keeps allies and enemies from passing them too much in damage, AB and AC.

enemies with without DR- for U Strikes stink

low AC- 3/4 BAB is not good. Specially wth flurry.

Low quantity of full casters- 3 good saves and SR knocks partial casters silly.


Without the above, monks are rogues with lower damage, no trap skill, defense bonuses and a bunch of random features.

They rock in NWN 1 though. But it was 3.0 and based off natural 20s and spell dodging. It was basically watching 2 people trying to roll more 20's than the other after level 12.

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 10:12 PM
See i always wanted to play monk to impart my survivng enemies with Jaa-phobia, fear of being near windows or loose doors, specifically around mention of elephants.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 10:22 PM
Monk Prcs

Heilen Mystic,Oriental Adventures 3.0 updated in Dragon 318
Shintao monk, Oriental Adventures 3.0 updated in Dragon 318
Tattoo Monk, Oriental Adventures 3.0 version, More things stack with monk than CW Version such as flurry and it doesn’t require endurance OA version better, Oriental Adventures 3.0 updated in Dragon 318.
Tattoo Monk (monk like gain tattoos), Complete Warrior
Drunken Master (not very monk like, but instead imagine jackie chan), Complete Warrior
Reaping Mauler (Grapple expert), Complete Warrior
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (doesn’t progress monk unarmed damage, but it does progress unarmed damage thus it’s a decent prc if you have monk’s belt/superior unarmed strike/those relic gauntlets) Draconomicon
Disciple of the Eye (progresses flurry but not monk damage, you aren’t a monk but instead a humanoid who becomes faster/more alert/fearful due to having some dragon blood in you), Races of the Dragon.
Dragon Descendent (advances monk damage, summon ancestors spirits to help you fight), Dragon Magic
Initiate of Pistis Sophia (The exalted Monk prc), Book of Exalted Deads
Atavist (Monk or Soulknife PRC) Races of Eberron
Monk of the Long Death (Studies/Expert of Death), Players Guide to Faerun
Shou Disciple (progresses flurry, monk damage, and you gain the ability to flurry with any weapon), Unapproachable East
Shadow Sun Ninja (Continues all monk abilities and is a full initator prc) Tome of BattleMonks Hybrid Prcs

Enlightened Fist (Arcane/Monk hybrid), Complete Arcane
Sacred fist (Divine/Monk hybrid), Complete Warrior
Fist of Zuoken/Psionic Fist in the SRD (Psionic/Monk hybrid), XPH/SRD
Zerth Cenobite. (another Psionic/Monk hybrid focuses on time), Complete PsionicNon Monk Prcs but Monk can freely cross class

Kensai, Complete Warrior
Sword of Righteousness (the prc that gives a lot of exalted feats nothing else), BOEDDragon Magazine Monk Prcs

Master of the East Wind (hybrid arcane/monk), Dragon 314
Master of the North Wind (hybrid druid/monk), Dragon 314
Master of the South Wind (hybrid rogue/monk), Dragon 314
Master of the West Wind (hybrid cleric/monk), Dragon 314
Crane Shen (gains hybrid form), Dragon 319
Dragon Shen (gains hybrid form), Dragon 319
Mantis Shen (gains hybrid form), Dragon 319
Monkey Shen (gains hybrid form), Dragon 319
Panther Shen (gains hybrid form), Dragon 319
Snake Shen (gains hybrid form), Dragon 319
Tiger Shen (gains hybrid form), Dragon 319Variants of Monk Theme but are not the monk base class

Swordsage Adaptation
A Fighter who takes unarmed damage feats and becomes a “boxer.” Note I don't consider a boxer a monk and vice versa.Dragon Magazine Substitution/Variant Monk classes

Chaos Monk (DR335 p88 ) (Chaos version of Monk)
Holy Monk (DR310 p45) (Monk Paladin Hybrid)
Hunting Monk (DR310 p45) (Ranger Monk Hybrid)
Martial Monk (DR310 p45) (Monk Feats can also be Fighter Feats)
Raging Monk (DR310 p45) (Barbarian Monk Hybrid)
Sidewinder Monk (DR331 p89) (Rogue Monk Hybrid that also grows fangs)
Steadfast Monk (DR310 p45) (Monk that gains up to Damage Reduction 5- instead of Fast Movement and the +5 Monk AC Bonus) also located in Unearthed Arcana
Vigilant Monk (DR310 p45) (Monk that gains uncanny Dodge)There are also numerous “monk fighting styles” substitution options for monk that changes the 3 monk bonus feats to other bonus feats. This was the main thing they added to monk in Unearthed Arcana, the other thing they added was the "steadfast monk" subsition option (see above). Various dragon magazines have more of these "subsitution options" for bonus feats.

There are probably more monk prestige classes, heavy flavor monk like classes, monk substitution options over the last 4 years since 3.0 came out than I listed here. Regardless these are the main ones and Monk get less prcs, feats, and other options then about every class. And the stuff monk do get effectively turn monk into a hybrid other class. If it doesn’t turn it into a hybrid most likely the class plain *****. Note this list doesn’t include sword and fist the 3.0 guide to fighters/monks/melee types. Can someone else fill in those classes that weren't updated to 3.5?

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 10:24 PM
They rock in NWN 1 though. But it was 3.0 and based off natural 20s and spell dodging. It was basically watching 2 people trying to roll more 20's than the other after level 12.
I played a monk in the NWN hordes of the underdark, was fun, until I got to the last villian, and my monk's fists couldn't pierce his damage reduction :smallfrown:

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 10:38 PM
Chaos monk is amazing when paired in gestalt games. Mostly because it can be combined with barbarian to amusing and devastating effect.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 10:39 PM
I... somehow don't think that Chaos Monk/Barbarian would be devastating. It can't even cast any spells.

Orzel
2007-01-17, 10:40 PM
I played a monk in the NWN hordes of the underdark, was fun, until I got to the last villian, and my monk's fists couldn't pierce his damage reduction :smallfrown:

Same here. Half the final bosses in modules as a monk consisted of me dealing no damage and it missing 15 times in a row. Enchanted kamas NEVER dropped.

My last DM created a setting PRC thaat was a monk/wizard mix. It could summon floating doors and windows behind foes to kick them into. It could also conjure random items to block with "Chan style". "If another dartboard gets stuck on my sword I'll..." Most annoying BBEG henchmen ever!

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 10:43 PM
take a deep breath Ramza, you earned it. Hmmm, something about the phrase shadow sun ninja seems a tad ironic...

ken-do-nim
2007-01-17, 10:44 PM
The fixes the monk needs most are those that I would actually expect from some of the martial arts films I've seen:
1 - full damage with flurry weapons. Bruce Lee always went for the nunchuks when he could. This solves the fist enchanting problem + getting through damage reduction. In fact in the movie Dragon he (well the actor playing Bruce Lee) fights a demon. His kicks don't work, but then he gets the nunchuks and goes to town, eventually strangling the demon with them. My favorite scene of the movie.
2 - graceful, slow leaps which allow full attack. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon & other movies show leaps that are so slow & deliberate the monk gets off a zillion attacks while doing them. This will solve the problem of attacking flying opponents, making the monk a living missile weapon that can full attack. In fact this can solve the synergy gap between high movement and flurry. I guess we're talking whirlwind standard attack into the air.
3. - full BAB. These martial artists are warriors who train rigorously. Monks, ninja, and samurai all train hard and should have full BAB. Samurai will still be better because they should gain all the weapon focus/specialization bonuses with their katana (which from movies I've seen are wielded 2-handed). Leave 3/4 BAB for the part-time warriors like cleric, rogue and bard.

Person_Man
2007-01-17, 10:44 PM
Touch of Golden Ice (yeah the DC never improves, but plenty of enemies have crud Fort Saves), Freezing the Lifeblood (Stunning Fist becomes paralyzing Fist), Pressure Point Strike (removes special conditions, delays poison, and dispels spells), Snap Kick (extra unarmed attack on any attack, all attacks at -2), Mage Slayer (casters can't cast defensively). You now have a strong Monk build.

For an excellent Fear build, you can go Monk 6/Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2) 5/Avenging Executioner 5 (from Comp Scoundral, gets excellent Fear attacks and some Sudden Strike, plus good Skills, but only 3/5 BAB). Though Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#freedom-slaughter-and-tyranny) 3/Disciple of the Eye 2/Avenging Executioner 5 would probably be stronger.

I'm won't argue that Monks they're more effective then Tome of Battle builds

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-17, 10:44 PM
I... somehow don't think that Chaos Monk/Barbarian would be devastating. It can't even cast any spells.

BLARG TEH SPLEECSTAERZ PWNZORZ D&D!

*ahem* Yes, we know. All other classes must fall too their knees and cower in abject helplessness at the approach of a full caster/manifester. It was patently obvious that what VE meant to say was, "Chaos Monk//Barbarian is devastating compared to some other melee builds, but would keel over if a wizard/druid/cleric/psion so much as flicked a booger at him".

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 10:45 PM
It's... it's not devastating to a well-built melee gestalt, either.

MaN
2007-01-17, 10:49 PM
In a game where the characters start at high level and are allowed to spend WBL shopping for equipment ala cart monks can definitely end up weaker than other classes. This is not because of any inherent 'under-powering' that the class suffers, rather that other classes can be optimized much more effectively.
In a true D&D game, where characters start at 1st level, are roleplayed through level advancement, treasure is parcelled out by a DM who doesn't simply cater to the wishes of the players, and players have to worry about the survivability of their character at every level the monk can indeed end up being much more powerful than the other party members.
Academic discussions of attack bonuses, average damage per round, achievable armor class, etc only have a significant relevence when the game is played simply as a D&D Miniatures-style combat-fest.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 10:55 PM
take a deep breath Ramza, you earned it. Hmmm, something about the phrase shadow sun ninja seems a tad ironic...
Oh I just spent another 10 mins looking up prcs, to finish a list I saved to my computer, due to someone from a previous time someone posted a monk thread. (less than a month ago if I recall) I didn't post the half complete list then, for it wasn't finished. Crystal Keep made the list easy, and most of the monk prcs are in one or two books.

Raum
2007-01-17, 11:01 PM
In a true D&D game, where characters start at 1st level, are roleplayed through level advancement, treasure is parcelled out by a DM who doesn't simply cater to the wishes of the players, and players have to worry about the survivability of their character at every level the monk can indeed end up being much more powerful than the other party members.
By RAW characters can sell their loot and purchase what they want just by going to a large enough town. Yes, DMs can, and often do, change that...but it's not RAW.

Not that I mind playing that way, especially with a creative DM. We just need to point out house rules when discussing mechanics.

Ramza00
2007-01-17, 11:06 PM
Looking at the list, I remember some utter cheese you can do with a Monk 6/Iniate of Draconic Mysteries 10/X 4 build. It is due to the amazing amount of stuff you can stack on one build.

With these items/feats
Monk lvl +6
Monk Belt +5
Gauntlets of the Talon +5 (In Complete Divine Requires the true believer feat from the same book)
Superior Unarmed Strike Feat +4
Total Monk Damage lvls 20
(There is also a weapon of legacy that does +5, and a magic tattoo in FR that does +4)

Monk Damage 2d10

Now to make it obscene these two things.

A wizard (caster lvl 16 or higher) casts greater magic wallop on your fists. Your fists increase in damage as if they increased by 4 die increases.
Iniate of the Dracnoic Mysteries 4 and 8 each increases the damage done by 1 die steps for a total of 2 (note not damage size increases but die increases). Thus this damage stacks with the Greater Mighty Wallop damage increase since one is a damage increase, and one is a die increaser.
Greater Mighty Wallop increases Damage to 12d8 (avg 54)

Iniate of the Draconic Mysteries increases your damage by 2 die steps. According to Improved Natural Attack and page 28 of the DMG, two die increases of a 1d8 is 3d6. Thus your damage is 36d6 (avg 126).

Note Improved Natural Attack may increase this damage to 48d6 (avg 148) but whether Improved Natural Attack stacks with Draconic Mysteries and Greater Mighty Wallop is arguable.

Note the CO boards have done the max monk damage thread as a theoretical build. Note everybody in that thread believes is extreme cheese, and wouldn't allow it. They just want to see how high they can go.

------------------------------------------------

Note even with this obscene amount of damage Monk is still a sucky class. You just have to go to insane cheese (but still the Rules As Written) to get this amount of damage.

------------------------------------------------

Note Monk 6/Iniate of Draconic Mysteries 9/Disciple of the Eye 5
will give you full 11th lvl flurry, and the prestige classes mesh well flavor wise. You just don't get the 10th lvl ability of IoDM which allows you to shapechange into a dragon for 1 hour (can't change forms though)

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 11:10 PM
You need nearly every stat to make it work well save intelligence and charisma, but in gestalt campaigns, high starting stats are pretty standard. For instance, here's a level 5 monk//barbarian built with 40 points-

Stats- Str 17, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Feats- Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Dodge
He can use a raged Flailing Strike to attack for 1d4+1 strikes at +9 each, for 1d8+5 damage. So, anywhere in the neighborhood of 12-65 damage (if I've got the math right, which I'm admittedly prone to failing. Durr, Miscount Einstrauss). Sure, his AC is a craptacular 16 to begin with and only gets even worse at a 14 while doing this, but the damage is pretty neat for a melee level 5.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-17, 11:15 PM
3.5 monks in my opinion are very well balanced. They don't give you all your powers up front, or late. They have them spread out over the whole 20 levels. That, and with the class restrictions that monks have on them (minus a few very good prestige classes) I think it makes them neither under or overpowered.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 11:16 PM
Purple: you're missing the part where the monks can't DO anything. It's terrible class design, and makes them underpowered.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-17, 11:20 PM
Well, I just bought ToB, CoW, and CoS, so hopefully this sort of stuff won't be an issue for me anymore. I'm letting my PC's buy-back any non-caster levels they wish with the new material for free, as it sounds like the material contained within these pages are awesome.

Jack Mann
2007-01-17, 11:31 PM
Actually, only the inks are made of awesome. The paper was made from the Win-Win Tree and the binding is forged from cool.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-17, 11:31 PM
I just needed to make an observation. It's interesting how they went from 2nd edition's


Players shouldn't assume that there are magic shops that allow them to just waltz in and buy anything they need or offload items that they don't

to 3.x's


You can buy anything, as long as you have the money and the place has the economy

I think VoP was made to balance against the former(wherein the DM either decides what he gives you, or randomly rolls it up), rather than the latter(custom items FTW).

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 11:34 PM
On the contrary. (Custom items not included, that passage refers to items found in the DMG/whatever other books you're using.)
VoP is made to balance against the latter. It's meant to not be as good.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-17, 11:34 PM
Purple: you're missing the part where the monks can't DO anything. It's terrible class design, and makes them underpowered.

Well, I've gotten monks to be quite effective personally. Especially when coupled with kensai or drunken master. If you have a monk with the right build and the right equpiment, they can be very effective as either a str or dex fighter. Especially once you start imbuing fists.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-17, 11:41 PM
Well, I've gotten monks to be quite effective personally. Especially when coupled with kensai or drunken master. If you have a monk with the right build and the right equpiment, they can be very effective as either a str or dex fighter. Especially once you start imbuing fists.

Drunken Master's pretty bad (way to never penetrate any DR). As a dex fighter they don't do any damage; as an STR fighter, they still do less damage, and they have a low AC. Kensai makes it a Kensai build; Kensai helps save monk because you -stop being a monk-.

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-17, 11:44 PM
On the contrary. (Custom items not included, that passage refers to items found in the DMG/whatever other books you're using.)
VoP is made to balance against the latter. It's meant to not be as good.

Perhaps I'm not getting my point across. I mean that the VoP is balanced more towards the older style where the DM hands things out at random/whim/module, rather than allowing players to just pick and choose as though they were at WalMage.:smalltongue: Incidentally, I get the feeling that players, NPCs, hell, every damn thing that is not an object in 3.x is extremely mercantile, perhaps even mercenary. To some extent, we're beginning to play "The Price is Right":smallannoyed:

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-17, 11:48 PM
well actually, you don't stop being a monk with kensai as it's a class that actually still allows you keep progressing as a monk, so no, you don't stop being a monk. As for the DR, that's what the ki strike from monk is for. As for AC, I just made a monk that has a AC of 17 with no armor at all at first level, and with the AC bonus they get as they level, AC is not an issue. Yes, fists might not do as much damage as other items, but you can imbue them all the same. If you try, you can indeed make a very good monk, and effective monk. As for drunken master, some of the lower level abilities are not spectacular, but as you get to the upper third or so of the DM levels, you get some pretty good stuff. Like the ability to drink alcohol having the same effect as a cure mod potion, and breath of flame isn't bad either.

TimeWizard
2007-01-17, 11:55 PM
quit while you're ahead purple, it's a pointless battle

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-01-18, 12:02 AM
hey, I'm just trying to make a point that monks are not as weak as lasers thinks. But it seems that it's all in the eye of the beholder I guess.

Ramza00
2007-01-18, 12:07 AM
Drunken Master's pretty bad (way to never penetrate any DR). As a dex fighter they don't do any damage; as an STR fighter, they still do less damage, and they have a low AC. Kensai makes it a Kensai build; Kensai helps save monk because you -stop being a monk-.

I disagree, an amulet of natural attacks, or some lvls of kensai allows you ways to bypass damage reduction. Coupled with the Drunken's Master ability to drink liquor to shift one stat into another and he can be quite effective for he can get high strength and all that.

How about this warforged build Monk 5/Drunken Master 10/Kensai 5.

For 3 of your kensai lvls you get the shadow something of sure striking (+3 TOM, bypassses all Damage Reduction)

I call the build, "the Bender" (hopefully someone gets it)

Jack Mann
2007-01-18, 12:32 AM
Don't just tell us how cool your monk build is, Purp. Show us. Post it here. Explain where we went wrong.

Hamster_Ninja
2007-01-18, 02:30 AM
Would it work for a warforged to remove one of their firsts, have it reforged as a magic weapon with all the bells and whistles and re-attach it via a regenerate spell?

Matthew
2007-01-18, 06:02 AM
Perhaps I'm not getting my point across. I mean that the VoP is balanced more towards the older style where the DM hands things out at random/whim/module, rather than allowing players to just pick and choose as though they were at WalMage.:smalltongue: Incidentally, I get the feeling that players, NPCs, hell, every damn thing that is not an object in 3.x is extremely mercantile, perhaps even mercenary. To some extent, we're beginning to play "The Price is Right":smallannoyed:

That was a great quote. Yeah, that is one of the ways default 3.x differs from default 2.x.

Person_Man
2007-01-18, 10:54 AM
Party roles:

Battlefield Control: Controls enemy movement.
Blaster: Blows stuff up.
Buff: Makes other classes better.
Face: Does the talking.
Hack n' Slash: Hits stuff for a lot of damage.
Healer: Stops death.
Scout: Hides, Spots, finds traps, etc. Sometimes ambushes.
Summoner: Is there any problem more minions can't solve?
Tank: Stands in the way of enemies. Doesn't die.
Toolbox: Solves problems without violence, usually with magic or Skills.


Off the top of my head, the best base classes to fill roles:

Battlefield Control: Knight, Wizard.
Blaster: Sorcerer, Warmage.
Buff: Cleric, Wizard.
Face: Bard, Marshal.
Hack n' Slash: Psychic Warrior, Warblade.
Healer: Cleric.
Scout: Rogue, Scout.
Summoner: Druid.
Tank: Cleric, Crusader.
Toolbox: Beguiler, Wizard.

You could argue that a well built Cleric, Druid, or Archivist, (who I just leave out of everything because I ban it) could pretty much fill any role. You could also make a good argument that any of the Tome of Battle classes can fill the Hack n Slash or Battlefield Control roles quite excellently.

But its hard to argue that a Monk is better then a Barbarian (another "weak" class) at Hack n' Slash, or better then Scouts at being a Scout, or better then Wizards at Battlefield Control, etc.

Now, if you want a PC who does several interesting things in a non-optimal way, Monks are an ok choice. As are Rangers (whom I have a sentimental love of playing), Paladins, Hexblades, etc. They adequitely fill one or more party rolls, even if they don't excel at it like some other class. And for most games, that's just fine.

Telonius
2007-01-18, 11:29 AM
To deal with a flying enemy as a VoP monk, here's a tactic I used a campaign or two ago. For low levels, if you're inside, climb up the nearest wall (preferrably using the corner), jump out at the creature, and grapple it. (Climb and Jump are class skills for a monk, and jump bonuses accrue for having higher speed). Grapple to deal lethal or nonlethal damage (no -4 since you're in a grapple) until it dies or goes unconscious. When it does, jump back out at the wall and slow fall down. Or, just take the falling damage and use tumble to reduce the hurt. If you're outside, piggyback on another character who has fly, and do the same thing (except you have to take falling damage); or throw rocks at it (they become magical weapons; not much else you can do). At higher levels, same thing, except you can use Abundant Step to get up to the enemy. So, while it's difficult and dangerous, there are things VoP monks can do against some flying enemies.

If you're going against an enemy that has a ridiculous grapple check (like a Roc), has super-high strength, is very large (older dragons), or is otherwise something you don't want to grapple (succubus, vampire) this wouldn't work so well.

silvermesh
2007-01-18, 12:20 PM
No, it isn't. Show a little respect.

Bruce Lee said that weapons beats no weapons. The whole "martial artist" thing is about being so well trained that you are such a better fighter than they are that you can get the weapon away or avoid it because they aren't skilled enough in it's use. an equally trained fighter with a weapon beats the one with no weapon.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-18, 02:58 PM
Yes, and Lee had a very good point. But to expand on it, that means that any time you're fighting against someone with a weapon, you're at an instant disadvantage that you need to fix immediately. If I were to suggest a fix to the monk, it would be to take this idea into more consideration- the monk needs a way of taking out enemies with better toys quickly. Be it some sort of insane disarm techniques or, well, something. Giving them such a small BAB and then limiting them with MAD really makes it hard to do that stuff.

Stances, for instance, should play a much larger and integrated role in being a monk. Like perhaps a reactive one that lets you try to stop and disarm the next opponent that attacks you or perhaps trip them (in exchange for a usage of AoO). Things that let the monk just dominate through clever fighting instead of what's there now.

Say, that's not even hard to do. Give the monk a full BAB and add in stances somewhere...

MaN
2007-01-18, 09:59 PM
By RAW characters can sell their loot and purchase what they want just by going to a large enough town. Yes, DMs can, and often do, change that...but it's not RAW.

Not that I mind playing that way, especially with a creative DM. We just need to point out house rules when discussing mechanics.
It is ultimately up to the player to keep their character at the proper WBL. It is not up to the DM to ensure that each PC is in line with the WBL guidelines. Example:
Player1: Roblyn Hud the Chaoticly-Good-Robbing-From-the-Rich-to-Give-to-the-Poor rogue gives all the loot from the last encounter to the poor peasants, huzzah!
DM: OK. Well Roblyn Hud is now behind on WBL so as he leaves town he trips over a chest containing exactly enough gold to bring him back the wealth he should have at this level.
Player2: Redbar the fighter goes to the casino and bets everything he owns on double-zero. *Rolls dice* Oops, he lost. Guess Redbar's flat broke.
DM: Um, on the way out of the casino, Redbar spies a gold piece on the floor and decides to bet it on long odds on the Wheel-o-Fortune. *Rolls dice and doesn't even look at the result* Redbar wins! He now has the proper WBL again!
Both Players: Yay! We go to that big metropolis over there and go shopping!

There is a reason 'optimized' builds are called such. Most characters in an actual game never reach their full potential.

First three levels are spent fighting goblin raiders, the ranger who wanted to specialize in fighting evil outsiders spends one favored enemy pick on goblinoids instead.
Next five levels are mainly spent in the underdark fighting drow. Ranger takes elf as favored enemy instead of evil outsider. Fighter who wanted to do TWF tree decides to take blind fighting, putting off TWF for later. Wizard takes improved fortitude to defend against drow poison instead of that nifty metamagic feat. Magic items purchased deal with seeing in the dark, defending against poison, freedom of movement for dealing with those damned webs, etc.
Next three levels are spent battling pirates and sea creatures. Magic items are purchased to breathe underwater, apparatus of kwalish, folding boat, etc. All characters max out swim, survival, and profession (sailor). Magic weapons purchased are piercing melee weapons instead of greataxes or bows. Feat selection follows new weapons. Spell selection focuses on ones that will work underwater or are particularly effective against water subtypes. Metamagic feats chosen are silent and still spell instead of empowered or whatever your kick-ass build requires at this level.
Next four levels are spent tracking down a gang of young red dragons. You get the picture.

In a long-term campaign the uber-optimized build is not possible unless you want to suck at everything until you realize that build. Monks gain the same benefits regardless. You give up choice and customizability for a guaranteed set of general abilities which are useful in most situations.

Raum
2007-01-18, 11:01 PM
It is ultimately up to the player to keep their character at the proper WBL. It is not up to the DM to ensure that each PC is in line with the WBL guidelines. I'm not sure what this has to do with houseruling (in 3.x) out the ability to purchase magical items in town but, assuming your group is trying to follow the WBL, I'd say it's the group's responsibility.


In a long-term campaign the uber-optimized build is not possible unless you want to suck at everything until you realize that build.Not all builds suck until they reach level 20. In fact the only optimized builds I can think of which do suck till late levels are the multiple caster type builds such as Mystic Theurge.


Monks gain the same benefits regardless. You give up choice and customizability for a guaranteed set of general abilities which are useful in most situations.Agreed...until you specify "useful". Then we need to agree on a definition of useful first.

If you're simply saying the monk will have something he can try in most situations, you're probably correct.

TimeWizard
2007-01-18, 11:45 PM
Yes, and Lee had a very good point. But to expand on it, that means that any time you're fighting against someone with a weapon, you're at an instant disadvantage that you need to fix immediately. If I were to suggest a fix to the monk, it would be to take this idea into more consideration- the monk needs a way of taking out enemies with better toys quickly. Be it some sort of insane disarm techniques or, well, something. Giving them such a small BAB and then limiting them with MAD really makes it hard to do that stuff.

Stances, for instance, should play a much larger and integrated role in being a monk. Like perhaps a reactive one that lets you try to stop and disarm the next opponent that attacks you or perhaps trip them (in exchange for a usage of AoO). Things that let the monk just dominate through clever fighting instead of what's there now.

Say, that's not even hard to do. Give the monk a full BAB and add in stances somewhere...

The Dragon is one of my role models, but he was a member of the real world, where people can't just go about with greatswords on their back. Discount most of his movie weapon scenes, as those we're weapons for the sake of weapons. True mastery lies in adaptability, the ability to be in any situation and be adequatley prepared for it. Where does he say weapons are inherently superior?

And I was quoted out of context, I was telling Bears to show respect for the flavor idea of unarmed combat, a style choice of mine he does not share.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-18, 11:58 PM
...why should I respect your tastes? I don't think you understand what respect means. I respect your right to HAVE them, sure, but there's nothing wrong with thinking your style choices suck.

TimeWizard
2007-01-19, 12:01 AM
Of course not. But then again, some of like unarmed combat, and some of us like the Decemberists. Who's to impose liking other people's style?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 12:09 AM
Me. Because "style" or not, going into a fight unarmed remains, in D&D or out of it, a dumb idea. Even for monks.

TimeWizard
2007-01-19, 12:17 AM
Really, you impose liking other people's personal styles? that must be a tough job. Either way, you are welcome to your opinion and though it differs from mine I still respect it, and you. Respect is a beautiful thing, no?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 10:16 AM
No, not really. It's a word that's overused and doesn't even have a specific meaning, it's just used when people want others not to criticize/disagree/whatever with them.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-19, 12:57 PM
Why is it inherently dumb to go into a fight unarmed? Maybe if you had plenty of chances to grab a proper weapon it is, but lugging around heavy and dangerous weaponry is going to get you attacked far more often then walking around unarmed. But part of fighting unarmed is to reach for any advantage you can when offered, and if you're being attacked by someone with a weapon, the advantage is in their hands. So, you're going to have to take that advantage from them and turn it around. For instance, let's say your guy with a greatsword attacks the unarmed combatant. A smart unarmed fighter here would make getting that greatsword out of your hands his first priority. Then, after the odds are evened, he should take the next best chance offered to him to grab that greatsword and turn it around on his attacker.

On the other hand, let's say that the man with the greatsword was accompanied by some archers firing from a distance. As soon as the greatsword guy is dealt with, our hero ought to either drop it or throw it. It's too big and will slow him down when either seeking cover or vengeance. In this instance, it's better for him to be unarmed then try running around with a greatsword in his hands.

You forget that being disarmed was a very real and regular threat in medieval combat, as it still is today in modern combat. Being dangerous with or without weapons can only be beneficial to you.

Actually, now that I think about it, it's absolutely insane that D&D doesn't reflect this staple of hand-to-hand combat. A well-armed fighter is so hard to unarm for a monk that he might as well not even try, which DOES make the whole class silly. I vote for a power creep.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 12:59 PM
...because normally it's so easy to take a guy's sword away when you're unarmed.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-19, 01:01 PM
Yes, it is. Hand-to-hand ninjutsu was based around it. So was most European grappling. So is Aikido, Judo, and several other martial arts. It's not inherently easy- it's that every culture created several excellent techniques for doing exactly that.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-19, 01:05 PM
It's not inherently easy. You can train to do it... and people with weapons train to not let you do it.

If you're going up against someone of equal skill, and he's got a weapon, and you don't, he's got a HUGE advantage, and you are very unlikely to take it away from him.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-19, 01:10 PM
But as you said, it's more of a counter-system then an inherent benefit. Knowledge of unarmed combat is beneficial to the armed fighter, yet taking a dip into monk doesn't reflect this at all. I'm thinking about making a special new monk ability, useable so many times a day, that lets him disarm and grab a weapon quickly, but also making a fighter feat that lets him attempt to counter the disarm. Then a counter-counter feat, available for anyone, that lets you in effect counter any immediate counterattack, and the winner is whoever has the most counters to actually come out on top. Counters stack, but use up AoO. And a fighter that dips into monk may use the disarm ability as a counter to keep his weapon instead, while a monk that takes the counter-disarm gets a bonus use of the counter-counter while disarmed.

How's that?

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-19, 01:12 PM
Much of disarming someone involves making it uncomfortable for them to hold on to the weapon. Usually through either joint-locking, or twisting their joints in reverse to almost breaking point. Perhaps what Monks need is some special option only they can use with disarmament. Well, they could grapple and force the guy to lose the weapon(unless it's light, it's useless in a grapple), but the stupid 3/4 BAB and BAB being part of Grapple checks means that's probably even less likely to happen than the Trip/Disarm to begin with.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-19, 01:16 PM
Then why not a continuously climbing grapple bonus for monks? If they get +1 to unarmed grapple attacks every three levels, they'll actually be proper grapplers- something they really ought to be anyway, since I've never heard of a martial art that didn't involve lots of grappling.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-19, 01:54 PM
After hearing the pros and cons, I agree that they need to be improved. So here's my take-

Monk
Base Attack Bonus- Rogue
Good Saves- All
Skill points- 4
Hit Dice- d8
All unarmed damage bonuses, AC bonuses, slow fall, and speed bonuses are the same as the standard monk. Flurry of Blows is removed.
Bonuses by level
1. Unarmed Strike, Bonus Feat, Bonus AoO Usage
2. Bonus Feat, Evasion
3. Still Mind, Battle Wisdom
4. Ki Strike (magic), Bonus AoO Usage
5. Purity of Body, Ready Counter
6. Bonus Feat
7. Wholeness of Body, Bonus AoO Usage
8.
9. Improved Evasion
10. Ki Strike (lawful), Bonus AoO Usage
11. Diamond Body, Extra Counter
12. Abundant Step
13. Diamond Soul
14.
15. Quivering Palm, Double Disarm
16. Ki Strike (Adamantine)
17. Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon
18. Knockout Strike
19. Empty Body
20. Perfect Self
Bonus AoO Usage- The monk reacts swiftly in battle. He gains one extra AoO at first level, and one more AoO every three levels after that until level 11. These stack with other bonus sources of AoO, such as Combat Reflexes.
Battle Wisdom- The monk has an almost sixth sense when fighting unarmed. While unarmed, a monk may use his wisdom in place of his strength as an attack bonus against any single called opponent at a time. If the monk has dodge, the called opponent from dodge is the same as the called opponent for Battle Wisdom. This does not stack with the strength bonus or weapon finesse.
Ready Counter- The monk can time his attacks to stop his enemy as they approach. The monk may wait to take his standard action until the enemy is within his threatened area. The monk then makes a tumble check. If he succeeds, he may make one immediate attack at his highest BAB and his enemy loses the rest of his round. If he fails, the enemy catches the monk flatfooted for one round.
Extra Counter- The monk may use one additional counterattack. This stacks with the Counterattack and Extra Counter feats (see below). If the monk doesn't already have the feat Counterattack, he gains that instead.
Double Disarm- The monk may attempt to disarm twice in the same time it normally would take to do it once. The monk may use the second disarm against any opponent in his threatened area.

Feats-
Counterattack- This character may interrupt any attack of opportunity with his own attack of opportunity. If he hits, then the opponent loses his chance to attack. Using this feat counts as an attack of opportunity and is limited in usage to the number of attacks of opportunity the character can make per round. Counterattack may only be used once per round. This feat may be taken as a fighter's bonus feat or a monk's first level bonus feat.

Extra Counter- This character may use Counterattack one extra time. This feat may be taken more then once. It's effects stack. This feat may be taken as a fighter's bonus feat.

Thoughts? If I get the stats right, I think I'll throw it up in the homebrewed forums.

Artanis
2007-01-19, 02:11 PM
Would it work for a warforged to remove one of their firsts, have it reforged as a magic weapon with all the bells and whistles and re-attach it via a regenerate spell?
The Warforged could get a Battlefist. It makes the Monk hit as though he was one size larger and is enchantable like a normal weapon (and as far as I can tell, can be made of a DR-overcoming material). And no amputation involved!


Which brings me to why I checked out this thread in the first place...to ask basically a bigger version of the same question. How well could a Warforged Monk with a Battlefist keep up? Yeah, it's still a Monk, but it does away with the Monk's two most immediately obvious disadvantages (no enchanting fists and no enchanted armor), while mitigating a third (damage output).

ken-do-nim
2007-01-19, 06:44 PM
And I was quoted out of context, I was telling Bears to show respect for the flavor idea of unarmed combat, a style choice of mine he does not share.

While I fully agree with Bears (or he agrees with me, depends on how you look at it) that not using a weapon when you can is silly, can we all agree that having the ability to fight well unarmed is still useful? Certainly if you play the 1st edition module A4 where everyone starts out without equipment in prison, monk is the class to be!

1337_master
2007-01-19, 08:59 PM
You guys know that there is an amulet used to make your fist more powerful, right? and as the Monk's level increases, with this amulet, they could do well over 2D10+10 damage, mabye even more.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-19, 09:07 PM
You guys know that there is an amulet used to make your fist more powerful, right? and as the Monk's level increases, with this amulet, they could do well over 2D10+10 damage, mabye even more.



I assume you refer to the amulet of mighty fists? A problem with unarmed attacks is that they don't get through damage reduction, and the higher in level you go the more that becomes important. Another problem is that amulet slot. Monks need it for a periapt of wisdom (improve ac/stunning fist dc) or an amulet of health (to make up for their low hit points compared to other melee classes) too.

The best suggestion I've read on these forums is to allow a monk using weapons with the ki focus ability to deliver his unarmed damage with them.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 09:10 PM
I assume you refer to the amulet of mighty fists? A problem with unarmed attacks is that they don't get through damage reduction, and the higher in level you go the more that becomes important. Another problem is that amulet slot. Monks need it for a periapt of wisdom (improve ac/stunning fist dc) or an amulet of health (to make up for their low hit points compared to other melee classes) too.

The best suggestion I've read on these forums is to allow a monk using weapons with the ki focus ability to deliver his unarmed damage with them.
You can get the items unslotted, or put on the same item for more cost. Thing is the amulet of mighty fists is already far more expensive than a normal weapon enchantment

ken-do-nim
2007-01-19, 10:24 PM
You can get the items unslotted, or put on the same item for more cost. Thing is the amulet of mighty fists is already far more expensive than a normal weapon enchantment

In practise, there are problems with this approach. Unslotted items are expensive, and since they are not in the DMG, the DM may make you "order" them. Remember that magic items take 1000 gp per day to create. So if you order an unslotted amulet of health +6, that's oh let's see ... 36,000 * 2 = 72,000 = 72 days. So both the money is high, plus you probably won't get the item for a long time. If you order the item when you are say level 16, the campaign could be over in 72 days, so you don't get it until it is too late. Who has 72000 gp to burn on an item that you may not get until you are level 19, 20 or beyond?

1337_master
2007-01-19, 10:44 PM
about the damage reduction, tell me, what is the most commonly used DR?

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 10:55 PM
The Warforged could get a Battlefist. It makes the Monk hit as though he was one size larger and is enchantable like a normal weapon (and as far as I can tell, can be made of a DR-overcoming material). And no amputation involved!


Which brings me to why I checked out this thread in the first place...to ask basically a bigger version of the same question. How well could a Warforged Monk with a Battlefist keep up? Yeah, it's still a Monk, but it does away with the Monk's two most immediately obvious disadvantages (no enchanting fists and no enchanted armor), while mitigating a third (damage output).
Look up Greater Mighty Wallop, Races of the Dragon 3rd lvl spell lasts 1 hour*caster level, its a buff your wizard can cast on you similar to how he cast greater magic weapon on the fighter. It will vastily help.

Ramza00
2007-01-19, 10:58 PM
about the damage reduction, tell me, what is the most commonly used DR?


There is an enchantment in Tome of Magic that adjusts its alingment and material to break dr automatically its a +3 enchantment called Shadow Striking. If you have the FR book Underdark there is an item enchantment +2 called Metalline that allows you to change the material of any metal weapon to any other metal.

Artanis
2007-01-20, 12:18 AM
Look up Greater Mighty Wallop, Races of the Dragon 3rd lvl spell lasts 1 hour*caster level, its a buff your wizard can cast on you similar to how he cast greater magic weapon on the fighter. It will vastily help.
And what if there's no Wizard in the party?

Edit: And yes, not having a Wizard happens. The last party I was in had a Ninja, a Paladin, a Warmage, and a Bard.

Ramza00
2007-01-20, 12:37 AM
And what if there's no Wizard in the party?

Edit: And yes, not having a Wizard happens. The last party I was in had a Ninja, a Paladin, a Warmage, and a Bard.
hope the bard goes lyric thamuaturge or sublime chord. Getting a scroll of it will still be useful for certain fights, make sure the caster level of the scroll is 16 if possible, 12 with the battlefist.

Ramza00
2007-01-20, 12:50 AM
There is also custom magic items, making a weapon of legacy that casts the spell, or the eberron wands that never run out of charges but are 1/day.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-01-20, 01:02 AM
The best suggestion I've read on these forums is to allow a monk using weapons with the ki focus ability to deliver his unarmed damage with them.

Why thank you. I'm glad you approve.

Artanis
2007-01-20, 01:12 AM
hope the bard goes lyric thamuaturge or sublime chord. Getting a scroll of it will still be useful for certain fights, make sure the caster level of the scroll is 16 if possible, 12 with the battlefist.
So you're saying that the Monk class is so utterly worthless that it can't keep up AT ALL without either constantly begging a Wizard for buffs or blowing a ton of cash on scrolls/wands even when it's a Warforged with a Battlefist? :smallconfused:

Ramza00
2007-01-20, 01:37 AM
So you're saying that the Monk class is so utterly worthless that it can't keep up AT ALL without either constantly begging a Wizard for buffs or blowing a ton of cash on scrolls/wands even when it's a Warforged with a Battlefist? :smallconfused:
And a fighter never asks a wizard or cleric for a casting of greater magic weapon, so he can spend his weapon enchantments on other things?

A monk isn't worthless, he just contributes very little things that are worthwile. And have you seen the spell yet?

AtomicKitKat
2007-01-20, 06:57 AM
Yeah, it's still a Monk, but it does away with the Monk's two most immediately obvious disadvantages (no enchanting fists and no enchanted armor), while mitigating a third (damage output).

Don't think anyone mentioned this, but the Warforged pretty much negates some of the Monk's class features by his very existence. Lower speed, no Monk AC stuff, no flurry, etc. All due to being essentially "armoured" at all times. At least, if I remember all of that correctly.

Matthew
2007-01-20, 07:11 AM
So you're saying that the Monk class is so utterly worthless that it can't keep up AT ALL without either constantly begging a Wizard for buffs or blowing a ton of cash on scrolls/wands even when it's a Warforged with a Battlefist? :smallconfused:

Well, since Fighter's can't keep up with Wizard's, this is no great surprise. Don't compare Monks to Spell Casters in order to gauge their power, compare them to Rogues and Fighters.

In general, they are more reliable than the Rogue in combat and less reliable than the Fighter. They are, however, potentially much better Scouts than Fighters and about as good as Rogues, but lacking the Search Skill can be a problem. Monks are a sort of middle ground between these two Base Classes, with some extra flavour thrown in. Consequently, they depend on Multiple Attributes, especially for Armour Class.

Artanis
2007-01-20, 09:54 AM
Don't think anyone mentioned this, but the Warforged pretty much negates some of the Monk's class features by his very existence. Lower speed, no Monk AC stuff, no flurry, etc. All due to being essentially "armoured" at all times. At least, if I remember all of that correctly.
Nope, Warforged only count as being "Armored" if they take one of the Armored Body feats (i.e. Mithril Body), which explicitly state that they change it so that the Warforged counts as armored. Their natural protection works similar to armor, but it is not actually armor. So, they keep their class abilities :smallcool:



Well, since Fighter's can't keep up with Wizard's, this is no great surprise. Don't compare Monks to Spell Casters in order to gauge their power, compare them to Rogues and Fighters.

In general, they are more reliable than the Rogue in combat and less reliable than the Fighter. They are, however, potentially much better Scouts than Fighters and about as good as Rogues, but lacking the Search Skill can be a problem. Monks are a sort of middle ground between these two Base Classes, with some extra flavour thrown in. Consequently, they depend on Multiple Attributes, especially for Armour Class.
I was being sarcastic with that post because it was late and I was frustrated that Ramza seemed to be totally missing the point of what I was asking. Mostly because it was late, though.

-Various people (such as Bears with Lasers) said that Monks suck because they deal no damage, namely compared to Fighters.
-I asked if having a Battlefist would make a Monk not suck because it looked, to my untrained eye, that a Battlefist would make them able to deal damage that was much closer to what a Fighter could do.
-Ramza said "just beg the Wizard for buffs. Then it doesn't matter if you're anywhere near as good as the Fighter, because the Wizard can make you not suck"...which doesn't answer the question, because anything you put on a Monk, you can probably put on a Fighter (including, as far as I can tell, Greater Mighty Wallop), putting you back at square one.

Matthew
2007-01-20, 10:07 AM
Ah well, sarcasm does not transfer well onto internet forums.

TRM
2007-01-20, 10:13 AM
There's nothing wrong with playing for style, as long as you don't mind not contributing much.

I disagree with you here Lasers. There are contributions that can be made to a game of DnD that do not involve doing 1d12+567 damage every round.
Monks can make excellent scouts due to their class skills and high Dex and class features (slow fall, improved evasion, diamond body. Traps are almost useless against her.) and also a fine diplomat. (Sense Motive, Diplomacy + high wisdom) gives a fine kind of wise diplomat.
there are things other than combat in DnD, which is the beauty of the game: You can play whatever style you want.

Matthew
2007-01-20, 10:29 AM
Scouting is definitely a strength for Monks. Wisdom and Dexterity contributing nicely to Spot, Listen, Sneak and Hide.

Hurlbut
2007-01-20, 01:59 PM
I assume you refer to the amulet of mighty fists? A problem with unarmed attacks is that they don't get through damage reduction, and the higher in level you go the more that becomes important. Another problem is that amulet slot. Monks need it for a periapt of wisdom (improve ac/stunning fist dc) or an amulet of health (to make up for their low hit points compared to other melee classes) too.

The best suggestion I've read on these forums is to allow a monk using weapons with the ki focus ability to deliver his unarmed damage with them.

Make the Periapt of Wisdom be bracers or vest, make the amulet of health be a hat or crown, whatever. You aren't restrict from having one item be ONLY for one specific body slot. As long as there is another body slot, just change that necklace to the right clothing item for that body slot. Belt of wisdom or health.

Matthew
2007-01-20, 02:26 PM
Thing is you need at least three and probably four Attribute enhancing items (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom) and the Amulet of Mighty Fists. Not to mention Bracers of Armour or somesuch thing.

Ramza00
2007-01-20, 03:36 PM
I was being sarcastic with that post because it was late and I was frustrated that Ramza seemed to be totally missing the point of what I was asking. Mostly because it was late, though.

-Various people (such as Bears with Lasers) said that Monks suck because they deal no damage, namely compared to Fighters.
-I asked if having a Battlefist would make a Monk not suck because it looked, to my untrained eye, that a Battlefist would make them able to deal damage that was much closer to what a Fighter could do.
-Ramza said "just beg the Wizard for buffs. Then it doesn't matter if you're anywhere near as good as the Fighter, because the Wizard can make you not suck"...which doesn't answer the question, because anything you put on a Monk, you can probably put on a Fighter (including, as far as I can tell, Greater Mighty Wallop), putting you back at square one.

I was assuming you were asking a question on how to make the monk more useful to the party, not continue this foolish my base class is the roxors and yours sucks, ego invested foolishness. D&D is a party game, your party is supposed to help each other. One 3rd level spell (which the wizard can get back with a pearl of power which costs 9,000 gp) will greatly enhance your party, it will help the monk, the wizard, and everybody else. Its win-win-win.

But if you only care about your pc being the strongest base class by its self for these internet discussions, of course the spell isn't going to be helpful to your arguement. I thought based off your original post you were asking on advice on how to make your monk better, instead of joining the back to back fighting.

Yes a warforged with battlefist makes a better monk than most races. Yes battlefist will allow him to enchant his fist cheaper.

Ramza00
2007-01-20, 06:38 PM
Was looking at the Rules of the Game series of articles for a non-related question, when I stumbled upon this and monks, I will just reprint it.



Sometimes, a player doesn't want an entirely new item, just something with a few alterations. For example, a player with a monk character would love to have an amulet of mighty fists, but she has grown to depend on the extra protection she gets from her amulet of natural armor. So, the inevitable question arises: Does an amulet of mighty fists have to be an amulet? The answer is of course not! However, that begs another question: If not an amulet, what kind of item should it be?

The Body Slot Affinities sidebar on page 288 in the Dungeon Master's Guide can help answer the second question. A look at the table there shows that bracers (combat), gauntlets (destructive power), or even a belt (physical improvement) are the most appropriate alternatives. Considering that our example monk wants to pound foes with her fists and that she probably already owns bracers of armor, gauntlets probably are the best bet. So, what should the gauntlets cost?

You can reasonably assume that a pair of gauntlets of mighty fists ought to have the same base cost and market price as the amulet (6,000 to 150,000 gp), depending on the enhancement bonus the item provides. The +1 version (6,000 gp) has a monetary cost to create of 3,000 gp (half the base price) and an experience cost of 240 XP (1/25th the base cost).

On the other hand, a +1 magic weapon (such as a +1 spiked gauntlet) costs only 2,000 gp (for the magical enhancement). Another quick look at the table on page 288 of the Dungeon Master's Guide shows that the amulet slot is best for items that involve protection and discernment, not attack, so it's a good bet that the amulet's price already had an adjustment for an uncustomary item slot. That makes sense, because almost any creature can wear an amulet or necklace and the amulet works on unarmed attacks and natural weaponry. The amulet of mighty fists probably also is intended for familiars and animal companions as well as monks.

That uncustomary item slot adjustment is x 1.5 (see Table 7-33), so the base cost and market price for the gauntlets would be 4,000 gp (6,000/1.5). The item should have the same caster level as a magic weapon with the same enhancement bonus (3 x the bonus), and it would require the Craft Wondrous item feat.

Okay, what happens if the character in question already has magic gauntlets, too, or just wants to keep that glove/gauntlet item slot available for some other useful item, such as gauntlets of ogre power or gloves of Dexterity? That's not a problem, either. There's no reason why someone could not create a robe of mighty fists, or a vest of mighty fists. Such items should have the same cost as the amulet (remember that we're assuming the amulet already has a cost increase of 50% for an uncustomary slot), so a +1 vest or robe of mighty fists would have a market price of 6,000 gp.

DMs who just aren't inclined to give the monk a break on such items might want to charge 6,000 gp for the amulet or gauntlets and 9,000 gp for the robe or the vest. I think that's excessive, and I suspect that most players would, too.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050111a



So yeah we now have wotc source saying that the amulet should be cheaper (provided you put it in the appropriate slot).

Artanis
2007-01-20, 06:49 PM
I was assuming you were asking a question on how to make the monk more useful to the party, not continue this foolish my base class is the roxors and yours sucks, ego invested foolishness. D&D is a party game, your party is supposed to help each other. One 3rd level spell (which the wizard can get back with a pearl of power which costs 9,000 gp) will greatly enhance your party, it will help the monk, the wizard, and everybody else. Its win-win-win.
Just a miscommunication, then :smallcool:

Basically, I had an idea that would hopefully help a Monk become useful to the party ("make it a Warforged with a Battlefist") and wanted to know if it would, indeed, make the Monk useful.



But if you only care about your pc being the strongest base class by its self for these internet discussions, of course the spell isn't going to be helpful to your arguement. I thought based off your original post you were asking on advice on how to make your monk better, instead of joining the back to back fighting.
Meh, I don't really care about having the strongest possible base class...I'm actually quite bad at the whole optimization thing. Which is why I came to this thread asking my question: I thought of a way to hopefully optimize the class a little bit, but didn't have any clue as to how much good it'd do. For all I knew, a Battlefist might be the weakest possible option for a Monk at level 20 for reasons that I just hadn't realized yet :smallwink:

Ramza00
2007-01-20, 07:40 PM
Just a miscommunication, then :smallcool:

Basically, I had an idea that would hopefully help a Monk become useful to the party ("make it a Warforged with a Battlefist") and wanted to know if it would, indeed, make the Monk useful.

Meh, I don't really care about having the strongest possible base class...I'm actually quite bad at the whole optimization thing. Which is why I came to this thread asking my question: I thought of a way to hopefully optimize the class a little bit, but didn't have any clue as to how much good it'd do. For all I knew, a Battlefist might be the weakest possible option for a Monk at level 20 for reasons that I just hadn't realized yet :smallwink:

Yes a battlefist will help a warforged monk be a better monk than other races of monk. A battlefist is a cheap weapon considering what it does (2,600 gp normal +1 weapons are 2,000 gp) and you get the size increase, and your slam is now piercing and bludgeoning.

It also says "Versions with higher enhancement bonuses are not uncommon." unfortunately it doesn't lists these enhancement costs so its up to your DM. Getting a battlefist with higher enhancements and convert those magic enhancements to enhancement special abilities.

You still have the problem about 3/4 bab, but a battlefist will help a monk tremendously "catch up."

Cybren
2007-01-20, 10:02 PM
Oh for the love of all that is good stop talking about Bruce Lee. Lee hated hated hated the nonsensical magical abilities present in the Kung Fu movies of his time (and they still persist despite his best efforts).

He said "Boxers are fighters. Boxers don't meditate, they box"

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-20, 10:46 PM
But no other class really seems to let you attempt to emulate Lee as well. A full BAB goes in a good direction, but his speed and the power behind his kicks and punches were practically mythical in their own right.

...

Say, that's actually easy to homebrew onto a fighter. Half the feat progression, add the unarmed damage, AC bonuses, and half the speed of the monk, then grant him high reflex instead of fortitude. Ladies and gentlemen, Bruce Lee enters D&D.

ken-do-nim
2007-01-21, 08:10 AM
Oh for the love of all that is good stop talking about Bruce Lee. Lee hated hated hated the nonsensical magical abilities present in the Kung Fu movies of his time (and they still persist despite his best efforts).

He said "Boxers are fighters. Boxers don't meditate, they box"

Alright so considering Bruce Lee has no supernatural abilities, the first thing monks get of that variety is ki strike (magic) at level 4. Also since he favored weapons, level 4 is when unarmed damage bumps to a d8 and he wouldn't care about that.

So ... Bruce Lee:
monk 3/fighter 8 (does 11th sound about right?)
Feats: H-toughness, 1-dodge, M1-Improved Unarmed Strike, M1-Stunning Fist, M2-combat reflexes, 3-weapon focus nunchuks, F1-power attack, F2-leap attack, 6-flying kick, F4-weapon specialization nunchuks, 9-improved toughness, F6-combat expertise, F8-improved trip