Would this be a bad way of dealing with Rope Trick shenanigans?

[DarkEternal]

So, I'm DM-ing a campaign in which I allowed more or less different material from all sources because it's the first time I'm doing a campaign that is not prewritten. Obviously, problems come with casters, but hey, those are the breaks I guess.

So, one of the players plays a wizard and does all kinds of things with him. I can expect a lot of cheese and hair pulling and the like. For now though, it's the rope trick spell. I hate it, and I know a few players hate it as well because it destroys a lot of the tone of travelling overlands(I'm still dealing with the teleportation in this setting, trying to think of a way that goes maybe from node to node instead of everywhere and anywhere) and lessens chance encounters and the like. I already nerfed the existence of the window in it, so they are basically blind and I got no complaints(strangely enough).

Now, would it be mean or unrealistic to expect if they have horses and the like that if there is an intelligent CR that stumbled upon them(with a caster in the mix) that they would detect said hole in the air and then prepare an ambush? A letter with explosive runes attached to the horses, waiting in ambush and letting loose a volley of arrows and spells into them, all kinds of things that would seriously hurt them(though I'd try and refrain from killing them)?

[Yukitsu]

Have you ever considered that people use those sorts of things because they want to avoid travelling encounters? I know I hate random travelling encounters.

[Fax Celestis]

My solution to the rope trick safe resting problem is to change rope trick's duration from 1 hr/lev to 10 min/lev, which changes it from a resting space to a hiding space. You want to rest, man up and use the higher level spell slot for tiny hut or magnificent mansion.

[D4rkh0rus]

just be a scumbag dm and houserule something like...

"the nether is an unstable entity, she may or may not grace you with peace and quiet while in her home."

roll a d100 every time the party rests inside an extradimensional space, **** may happen.

something like

- 1-5 "your space is disrupted from a nearby ritual, you are all trapped in there for X days, without any means of getting out, not even wish can save you now, mwuahahaha". Also, since no air is getting inside the container..... yeah GL.

- 6-10 "As you wake, you feel drained, as if the very fabric of the space you're in is eating your soul." All the PC's get 1-3 negative levels until they rest in a non dimensional space for 24 hours, resting in any dimensional space automatically grants this again instead of rerolling.

- 11-25 "The space was not perfectly formed, thus the one necessary thing was absent, Air." There's no oxygen, or rather, barely any. Any adventurers who slept in this dimensional house wake up in the middle of the night, gasping for air.

consequently they begin their day at 25% of their total hp and fatigued.

- 26-50 "Whoops..." the space is not as invisible as you would like it to be. a bunch of runes and a few edges can be seen, as if the entrance has not been fully anchored to the dimensional plane.
To anyone who does not know, it looks like a floating plate, with a hole and a rope running through it.

- 51-100 "Wheeew" The spell came out right. Nothing's wrong with the spell.


all of these are pretty much unnoticeable until the party has rested in it (except for the visible one).

I assure you, you include this, they'll think 4 times before relying on dimensional spaces.

[TypoNinja]

I assure you, you include this, they'll think 4 times before relying on dimensional spaces.

More like think 4 times before sitting down at your table after you pull it on them.

[D4rkh0rus]

More like think 4 times before sitting down at your table after you pull it on them.

You don't have to pull it on them, just tell them that you hate how they always rely on a spell to sleep, and that if it continues you will take measures.


Either way, whomever thought that wielding magic was supposed to be easy and with no possible repercussion whatsoever... should suffer in a fiery pit of doom.

then again... you can add witch hunters.

you can always add witch hunters....

(make NPCs with classes/prestige classes based around killing mages/countering spells/etc...) Im pretty sure they would be able to detect rope tricks...

and you make them lawful stupid, and have them think all magic is evil.
Hilarity ensues.

[Yukitsu]

Kinda agree with typo there, a game where the DM is like "You're irrelevant because none of your stuff does anything other than punish you for having the audacity of using it" just isn't fun.

[macdaddy]

There are a couple of ways to play it

1. If they are traveling along with horses/etc, then they spy those but don't see a camp. So they check for invis and lo and behold they see the opening. Then they set up and prepare an ambush for when the party comes out of the rope trick.

2. A warlock with see invis up, or a wizard/sorc with permanent see invis (either spell or item), see the rope trick hole and prepare said ambush.

I wouldn't mess with them on it too often, but every now and then a right proper ambush will make them say "ah $h!*".

You can also just send some mindless zombies/skellies into the countryside (or ghouls/ghasts), and have them go for the horses (biggest life source around). That always pisses off the party :) Especially if they forget to unload anything and the panicked horses go running off with their food/water

[DarkEternal]

Have you ever considered that people use those sorts of things because they want to avoid travelling encounters? I know I hate random travelling encounters.

I did not consider that because of the four people playing, one person adamantly refuses to use the rope trick since it pretty much cancels out his maxxed out scot with spot-listen and all that other stuff(and they like random encounters), and the other says it's a stupid spell which kills the entire thing about it being a dangerous world to travel.

I even mentioned that in the original post.


But yeah, anyway. Eating their horses and beating them within an inch of their life from time to time seems like the road to be taken. It will unfortunately rely too much on intelligent creatures, so a lot of the cool stuff in various MM's that can act as a nice random encounter will more or less be releaged to random encounters in the middle of the road, but ahhh well.

[Yukitsu]

I did not consider that because of the four people playing, one person adamantly refuses to use the rope trick since it pretty much cancels out his maxxed out scot with spot-listen and all that other stuff(and they like random encounters), and the other says it's a stupid spell which kills the entire thing about it being a dangerous world to travel.

I even mentioned that in the original post.

Yes, however rather clearly one player wants to use the spell likely because he doesn't want to have to deal with those things. Frankly, it would be fine if he and maybe the one that isn't really keen on random encounters sat safely in there while the rest of the party did things else wise because they prefer it, but 2 people are not the party. And also mind, avoiding an encounter due to rope trick is just as much succeeding an encounter as fighting it to the death.

Never mind that I disagree with both assessments as to why it's bad, it seems that you plan on bullying one player by having his character get arbitrarily beaten because he clearly wants to have a different experience than the others. That's moving into an out of character problem.

[Slipperychicken]

The world can still be dangerous to travel. It just means that ambushes don't happen as often while they're asleep.


People might notice a set of tracks which all abruptly end at the same point. That could be one way to spot a rope trick. Marauders and bandit-groups (and other intelligent foes) could plausibly have the tracking expertise to find it. The DC shouldn't be too high to notice that 4+ sets of footprints.

If something was stalking the PCs, it might see them climb into a rope trick and set up an ambush around it.

The window isn't airtight (otherwise the party may or may not suffocate, depending on how the space works). Monsters (including ordinary creatures like dogs and bears) can still smell tasty manflesh through the invisible window.

If someone has Permanent Arcane Sight (or See Invisible, or anything of the sort) up, he/she could see the rope trick clear as day.

You can still hear stuff through the window (I think), like the Fighter's obnoxious snoring.

[Necroticplague]

Well, if they still take roads, regular patrols used to look for bandits or highwaymen would find it suspicious that a couple horses are just milling about without riders. Or simply confiscate them to add to their own forces. So now they have to good it on foot, then a nice little social piece when they try and get their horses back. Or in a more typical pc fashion, an exciting chase as they grab their horses and run like hell. Either way, it creates more plot hooks instead of less, and can make them reconsider using it too much while still being willing to make some use of it. At least until the wizard grabs a copy of mount for his spellbook. Or use an extradimensional space to store them in to take them into the trick with them. Or acquire mounts that can fight back aggresively, like large sewerms.

[nedz]

My solution to the rope trick safe resting problem is to change rope trick's duration from 1 hr/lev to 10 min/lev, which changes it from a resting space to a hiding space. You want to rest, man up and use the higher level spell slot for tiny hut or magnificent mansion.

this is a good approach, though you should have done it from day 1 of the game. This is how it worked in AD&D FWIW.

You could have them enter a region of planer instability where the spell doesn't work. Or you could just have them enter a region where horse thieves are common.

[jedipotter]

For now though, it's the rope trick spell. I hate it, and I know a few players hate it as well because it destroys a lot of the tone of travelling overlands

My rope trick fix: Duration 10 minutes a level. You can't sleep in a Rope Trick because you have to actually keep holding onto the rope after climbing up into the extradimensional space, which doesn't offer anything you can use as ground. The rope can't be pulled up. Leaves a somewhat visible shimmering portal (Spot check DC 10+CL to notice it). Creatures may also attempt to collapse the space by pulling on the rope-- a successful Strength check with a DC equal to your caster level plus your advanced casting ability dispels the spell

[DarkEternal]

Yes, however rather clearly one player wants to use the spell likely because he doesn't want to have to deal with those things. Frankly, it would be fine if he and maybe the one that isn't really keen on random encounters sat safely in there while the rest of the party did things else wise because they prefer it, but 2 people are not the party. And also mind, avoiding an encounter due to rope trick is just as much succeeding an encounter as fighting it to the death.

Never mind that I disagree with both assessments as to why it's bad, it seems that you plan on bullying one player by having his character get arbitrarily beaten because he clearly wants to have a different experience than the others. That's moving into an out of character problem.

And yet, out of the party of four, two other party members want said encounters, and the third one doesn't care either way. So bullying one, or cutting the experience for two.

[Yukitsu]

Why precisely, can't he stay in his rope trick while the other two stand around outside and potentially risk getting killed?

[Phaederkiel]

as a dm who has previously banned this spell before (together with create food and water kind of spells) to create a survival-style campaign, I very much understand your problem.

One thing which is VERY dangerous about the rope trick is that the place you went into is possibly not the same as it was when you come out.
Point in question: my players once nearly used it on a boat. A boat floating down the river.

How do you like this scenario:
Party finds this nice hill, and decides to rope trick on top of it.
Next morning, either
a) the hill is swarmed with an orcish warcamp, and while the orcs have nothing against the players in person, they do not like humans in general.
or
b) The hill turns out to be some very large creature, which stands up and walks away. below the rope trick are now 45 ft of empty space.

[TypoNinja]

as a dm who has previously banned this spell before (together with create food and water kind of spells) to create a survival-style campaign, I very much understand your problem.


If its actually to preserve some kind of campaign theme (and presumably your players signed up for it) that's an entirely different proposition than just disliking a spell because it makes it harder to ambush your players. It's magic, it's supposed to be effective.

[jaydubs]

The real question is, what exactly are you trying to accomplish with nighttime encounters? What is your goal in having them, specifically?

Because the "not having enough encounters" argument doesn't really hold water. You can always just give them more encounters on the road rather than while they are sleeping.

And depending on your actual goal, there might be a way to accomplish that without messing with the rope trick spell.

For instance:

1) It makes my other player with high spot and listen feel obsolete - make spot and listen part of detecting ambushes on the road.

2) It decreases the number of random encounters - add more random encounters when they're not sleeping.

3) They always use it to recharge spells, even in dangerous situations - add a limited time element, so sleeping will have negative consequences.

Etc.

[Safety Sword]

Adventuring is supposed to be dangerous.

As a devious DM have ways to make it that way.

There is a solution to your problem which is a little non-linear. Just give all your PCs some sort of extra-dimensional space storage. It'll even make them think you're trying to make it easier for them. :smallbiggrin:


Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional
space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

I bet they won't leave their bags of holding on the horses whilst they sleep in a rope trick.

Hazardous can have a lot of different meanings. :smallamused:

Also, people who can detect the "window" should also be able to dispel it, right?

Edit: Also, don't let this one small thing derail your campaign, you should have bigger fish to fry as a DM

[nedz]

I don't know what level they are, but if they're not so high: pushing them hard so that they don't have the spare slots for Rope trick might work.

This will only work at low level though.

[Andezzar]

For now though, it's the rope trick spell. I hate it, and I know a few players hate it as well because it destroys a lot of the tone of travelling overlands(I'm still dealing with the teleportation in this setting, trying to think of a way that goes maybe from node to node instead of everywhere and anywhere) and lessens chance encounters and the like.Welcome to non-low level D&D. It's not a bug, it's a feature. When you have such powerful characters, they are not supposed to be harassed by every monster in the night. If you want a more survivalist game, you should start at level 1.
D&D is designed as a high magic game, don't be surprised if your players act that way. BTW See Invisibility is a second level spell as well, Dispel Magic is level 3, if you insist on pulling off the ambush in the night routine.

If you compare rope trick, to all the other things characters can do at level 9+ it is not so bad. And yes, you need a duration of 9 hours or more, because people need 8 hours of rest and if the spell lasts exactly 8 hours, there will be no time to get in and get out.


Now, would it be mean or unrealistic to expect if they have horses and the like that if there is an intelligent CR that stumbled upon them(with a caster in the mix) that they would detect said hole in the air and then prepare an ambush? A letter with explosive runes attached to the horses, waiting in ambush and letting loose a volley of arrows and spells into them, all kinds of things that would seriously hurt them(though I'd try and refrain from killing them)?For a random encounter, yes that would be unrealistic. The presence of a rope trick indicates at least one caster of level 3+. However the caster could be every higher level and the extradimensional space could also be filled with 6 additional equally threatening people. Intelligent monsters probably would just steal the horses and observe the rope trick until they know more about the people in the rope trick.

On the other hand, by level 9 the PCs probably have made enemies. People who are out to get the PCs, would do something like that.

Also, Horses? Why no mounts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mount.htm)?


Adventuring is supposed to be dangerous.But are PCs supposed to be stupid and not mitigate said danger?


There is a solution to your problem which is a little non-linear. Just give all your PCs some sort of extra-dimensional space storage. It'll even make them think you're trying to make it easier for them. :smallbiggrin:



I bet they won't leave their bags of holding on the horses whilst they sleep in a rope trick.

Hazardous can have a lot of different meanings. :smallamused:First of all, it is never defined what harardrous means. A wizard who knows this spell should know what that hazard is.

But more importantly that move does not even work well:

It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one


The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space


When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being.
So unless the PCs actually spread the portable Hole inside the Rope Trick, they are safe. Depending on the size of the group, there might not even be room.
On top of that, unless the PCs have lots of loot, they might just sell the portable hole.


Also, people who can detect the "window" should also be able to dispel it, right?Of Course.


Edit: Also, don't let this one small thing derail your campaign, you should have bigger fish to fry as a DMQFT.

[molten_dragon]

I had a party that used to use rope trick constantly to rest inside dungeons. I eventually had an enemy wizard with transdimensional spell attack them while they were all sleeping inside the rope trick (they never left anyone on watch because they thought they were safe). He killed half the party, and the other half barely escaped.

They were a lot more careful with sleeping arrangements after that, and generally either pushed on through the dungeon or found a safe place to sleep outside.

Doesn't apply exactly to your situation OP, but it's similar. I would say that as long as there's a plausible reason for someone to suspect the rope trick (they left their horses nearby, someone was watching when they climbed in, someone has see invisibility, etc.), then an ambush when they come out is perfectly fair.

[molten_dragon]

b) The hill turns out to be some very large creature, which stands up and walks away. below the rope trick are now 45 ft of empty space.

The most common length of rope is 50 feet, so to be effective you'd want more than that distance to the ground.

[Drachasor]

I'd adjust the DC to notice the extradimensional hole. Make it so that it isn't totally invisible. Instead of DC 40 make it a DC 25 or 20. That makes it noticeable, but they still get advantages out of using the spell.

[Andezzar]

The most common length of rope is 50 feet, so to be effective you'd want more than that distance to the ground.The rope from the spell is 30 ft long. Still not a spectacular fall.

Don't forget if those hills are creatures, they should have a CR and the PCs have encountered them and survived the encounter....

[CombatOwl]

So, I'm DM-ing a campaign in which I allowed more or less different material from all sources because it's the first time I'm doing a campaign that is not prewritten. Obviously, problems come with casters, but hey, those are the breaks I guess.

So, one of the players plays a wizard and does all kinds of things with him. I can expect a lot of cheese and hair pulling and the like. For now though, it's the rope trick spell. I hate it, and I know a few players hate it as well because it destroys a lot of the tone of travelling overlands(I'm still dealing with the teleportation in this setting, trying to think of a way that goes maybe from node to node instead of everywhere and anywhere) and lessens chance encounters and the like. I already nerfed the existence of the window in it, so they are basically blind and I got no complaints(strangely enough).

Now, would it be mean or unrealistic to expect if they have horses and the like that if there is an intelligent CR that stumbled upon them(with a caster in the mix) that they would detect said hole in the air and then prepare an ambush? A letter with explosive runes attached to the horses, waiting in ambush and letting loose a volley of arrows and spells into them, all kinds of things that would seriously hurt them(though I'd try and refrain from killing them)?

Scry and Die them. Seriously, any party with a wizard in it should have wizards who are totally willing to step in and snuff out the competition. Just because you can't target them with spells in the rope trick doesn't mean you can't have a wizard using a scrying artifact--if the scry fails, he knows they're in the rope trick. If the scry succeeds, he teleports in and starts raining hell down on them. Or, for a more low level option, just have his familiar follow them, then when they enter the rope trick for the night, teleport in and put down as many symbols as you want.

[Andezzar]

Scry and Die them. Seriously, any party with a wizard in it should have wizards who are totally willing to step in and snuff out the competition. Just because you can't target them with spells in the rope trick doesn't mean you can't have a wizard using a scrying artifact--if the scry fails, he knows they're in the rope trick. If the scry succeeds, he teleports in and starts raining hell down on them. Or, for a more low level option, just have his familiar follow them, then when they enter the rope trick for the night, teleport in and put down as many symbols as you want.I have to ask the question, why would the enemy wizard target that particular group? Wizards have better things to do than killing random people that do not interfere with them. They probably are busy with guarding against other wizardss that actually do have a beef with them.

[Fax Celestis]

Welcome to non-low level D&D. It's not a bug, it's a feature. When you have such powerful characters, they are not supposed to be harassed by every monster in the night. If you want a more survivalist game, you should start at level 1.

rope trick comes online at 3rd level and lasts long enough for the whole night with Extend at 4th. That's not exactly high-level play.

[CombatOwl]

I have to ask the question, why would the enemy wizard target that particular group?

Loot? Experience? Because he wants to eliminate the competition? Hell, the party wizard has a spellbook, doesn't he? Going and snuffing some weak adventurers is probably cheaper than going and buying all those spells in a store. It's not like this plan requires that the wizard disrupt his magical item creation (since he can only do 8 hours of that a day anyway, and any high-level wizard has already eliminated the need to sleep more than 2 hours a day, and the need to eat).

In other words, for basically the same reason that parties go adventuring.


Wizards have better things to do than killing random people that do not interfere with them.

How do you figure? Wizards need money and experience for crafting magic items. Killing random parties of adventurers and taking their stuff is a time-honored and time-efficient way of solving both problems. What, you think PCs are the only people interested in loot and XP? You think PCs are not themselves placed somewhere in the cycle of murderhoboism? Sometimes they are the murderhobos, sometimes they are the encounter.

Besides, have you ever looked at a random encounter table? "Why" is barely even a real consideration.


They probably are busy with guarding against other wizardss that actually do have a beef with them.

Yes, and the best way to guard against other wizards is to show how much of a badass you are by wiping out the would-be competition and selling their gear in exchange for money to forge immensely magical artifacts.

[DeltaEmil]

Talk with your players. Whatever you do, first talk it out with your players.

[Andezzar]

rope trick comes online at 3rd level and lasts long enough for the whole night with Extend at 4th. That's not exactly high-level play.Level 5 with any form of Extend spell. You would need a 3rd level spell slot to do that. Even if you can get around that, you still need a duration of at least 9 hours to cast the spell, get into the extradimensional space, rest and get out again. By level 5 dispel magic is also online.


Talk with your players. Whatever you do, first talk it out with your players.You and your sensible suggestions.

[schoklat]

MM Extend Rod.
Personally if I want to keep the adventuring a bit more gritty*, I tend to houserule that living things + extra-dimensional spaces = very unhealthy (Thrice so if closed.)

* As others already suggested, talk to your players about it... And adjust your campaign to make infinite extra-dimensional camping not always a good idea.

[Crake]

All you're really achieving by forcing the characters to not use ropetrick is making them make an item of zone of silence/invisibility sphere for when they camp

[CombatOwl]

Level 5 with any form of Extend spell. You would need a 3rd level spell slot to do that. Even if you can get around that,

Arcane Thesis (Rope Trick). Gotta be one of the biggest wastes of a feat I've seen a use for, but possible. Alternately, and far more usefully, Practical Metamagic (Extend Spell) or Metamagic School Focus (Transmutation).


All you're really achieving by forcing the characters to not use ropetrick is making them make an item of zone of silence/invisibility sphere for when they camp

That's... a significant cost at low levels, and far easier to bypass.

[TheDarkSaint]

If the players are being cheeky and using it to avoid encounters overnight and have a 15 minute adventure day, try this.

DM: "The rope falls down as Fizban casts his nightly Rope Trick Spell. With some effort, all of you climb into the extra dimensional space. What would you like to do?"

Player: "We eat and then sleep. We sleep!"

DM: Ok. It's 6pm outside since you guys only marched 8 hours to avoid exhaustion. It takes an hour to eat. At 7pm, your trail ration meal is finished. None of you are tired enough to sleep. What would you like to do"

Bam. Problem solved. I would make them roleplay the time away. If they say "we play a game!" I have them describe it to me and make them play it at the table. If they say "we talk until we are tired" I would ask, "what are you talking about"

If my PC's want to spend a majority of their time in a Rope Trick, that is where I will make the game happen.

If PC's complain that they aren't getting enough combat and all we do is sit around in the Rope Trick, I'll gently remind them that they chose to use Rope Trick to avoid encounters.

If only the wizard spends the night in there, I'd have an encounter in the night but he wouldn't be woken up by it, giving other folks the xp for the encounter.

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder you can't pull the rope up; ambushes become a very real possibility. Also good luck getting the horses up there, you may come out to find chewed bones and the wagon empty of anything you didn't haul up there after you.

But using it to sleep in should be acceptable I'd say.

[Dalebert]

Rope trick becomes a more viable strategy when everyone can afford their own pearl of power to loan to the caster for their own mount spell every day. Any extra-dimensional storage devices are still an issue. I get very nervous every time I say we're hiding those things and I unload all the most valuable stuph from them. Usually, my character who's a drow and does his meditating early, stays outside and keeps watch all night with his 120 ft darkvision while the human stay inside and sleep. Our DM seems to have mostly lost interest in random night encounters after we reached a certain level so he doesn't seem to care.

[Fax Celestis]

Level 5 with any form of Extend spell. You would need a 3rd level spell slot to do that. Even if you can get around that, you still need a duration of at least 9 hours to cast the spell, get into the extradimensional space, rest and get out again. By level 5 dispel magic is also online.

Incorrect: resting in rope trick comes online at level 4. A lesser metamagic rod of extend costs less than a +1 weapon, and Extend is one of the most multipurpose metamagics in the game, so there's no reason any spellcaster worth his salt shouldn't have one.

[Andezzar]

Any extra-dimensional storage devices are still an issue. I get very nervous every time I say we're hiding those things and I unload all the most valuable stuph from them.As I posted before, that is a non-issue. Not only are there no rules what the hazard may be for opening an extradimensional space in a rope trick, Bags of Holding, and by extension Handy Haversacks, are nondimensional spaces, not extradimensional ones. Oly opening a portable hole within the rope trick could be hazardous.


Usually, my character who's a drow and does his meditating early, stays outside and keeps watch all night with his 120 ft darkvision while the human stay inside and sleep. Our DM seems to have mostly lost interest in random night encounters after we reached a certain level so he doesn't seem to care.I hope your drow is not a caster, because even elven casters require eight hours of rest to regain their spells. Standing guard is not rest.


Incorrect: resting in rope trick comes online at level 4. A lesser metamagic rod of extend costs less than a +1 weapon, and Extend is one of the most multipurpose metamagics in the game, so there's no reason any spellcaster worth his salt shouldn't have one.Wrong, let me walk you through it. CL 4 with extend spell means a duration of exactly 8 hours, which begin immediately once the spell is cast. To enter the rope trick and start resting, they would need at least a move action, most likely more. So one round is subtracted from the duration before the rest starts, and the spell dissipates before the characters have rested their full 8 hours. Dropping out of the air most likely counts as an interruption. Thus the characters have not rested 8 hours and thus neither heal nor regain their spells. That is why they need the extra hour.

I know you can get CL 5 by ECL 4 but nobody said that the PCs in question actually do that. Heck nobody even said they had a lesser metamagic rod. We don't know if the OP has a problem with a functional rope trick at ECL 9+ or below ECL 5

[Fax Celestis]

Wrong, let me walk you through it. CL 4 with extend spell means a duration of exactly 8 hours, which begin immediately once the spell is cast. To enter the rope trick and start resting, they would need at least a move action, most likely more. So one round is subtracted from the duration before the rest starts, and the spell dissipates before the characters have rested their full 8 hours. Dropping out of the air most likely counts as an interruption. Thus the characters have not rested 8 hours and thus neither heal nor regain their spells. That is why they need the extra hour.

I know you can get CL 5 by ECL 4 but nobody said that the PCs in question actually do that. Heck nobody even said they had a lesser metamagic rod. We don't know if the OP has a problem with a functional rope trick at ECL 9+ or below ECL 5

An excellent point.

Still, I personally feel like if you're camping, you should be using tiny hut or magnificent mansion, not rope trick: that should be reserved for hiding (as was its primary use in prior editions and is thematically its intention).

[NotScaryBats]

Bandit Leader: "Yaar, see those horses and that rope? This be a magical spell -- thar be adventurers in that extradimensional space up there"

Bandit Subordinate: "Aye, we best be settin up an ambush to kill them and loot their booty once they be comin' outta thar!"

Bandit Leader: "Yaar, y'know why I'm the leader, here?"

Bandit Subordinate: "Aye, you be tha smart one, and you have cross class ranks in knowledges and stuff."

Bandit Leader: "Yaar, it takes a powerful magician at least strong enough to throw fireballs at us to make one of these. They may also have cast an alarm over the horses, or worse. Ghoul Glyphs? Who knows. I say we continue plundering peasants, merchants and the like, and leave these obviously seasoned adventurers alone"

Bandit Subordinate: "Aye, perhaps I spoke too soon when I said we should ambush them first thing in the morning after they had fully recovered all of their spells, powers, and whatever else they might do."

Bandit Leader: "Yaar, we have no way of knowing if there be one, five, or ten adventurers up there, or how powerful they be. There are only three horses, but I know magicians who summon their own, druids who ride crazy dinosaurs, and more!"

Bandit Subordinate: "Aye, moving on is the best option. You're the best Bandit Leader ever."

[Andezzar]

Still, I personally feel like if you're camping, you should be using tiny hut or magnificent mansion, not rope trick: that should be reserved for hiding (as was its primary use in prior editions and is thematically its intention).Maybe the designer simply decided that Rope Trick should have a function besides as a hiding place. Also without extending the spell, Tiny Hut as a camp comes online before Rope Trick.

[TheDarkSaint]

Where are they putting their bags of holding and handy haversacks?


You are keeping track of encumbrance if they don't have these items, right?

[Andezzar]

Where are they putting their bags of holding and handy haversacks?


You are keeping track of encumbrance if they don't have these items, right?Read my earlier post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16650367&postcount=22). Bags of Holding and Handy Haversacks pose no danger to the Rope Trick or the people in it.

[Bronk]

If the scry succeeds, he teleports in and starts raining hell down on them.

Well, it looks like they're actually pretty safe while their in the rope trick's extradimensional space! All spell effects are stopped unless they 'work across planes'. No one can teleport in (unless a 'wish' is used, maybe).

The 'window' can't be dispelled by itself... it isn't its own spell, just an effect from the rope trick spell. Meanwhile, the rope trick itself can't be dispelled from outside if the rope is pulled up, since the spell is cast on the rope, and the rope is in an area that is protected from outside spells.

It does say that a maximum of 8 creatures 'of any size' can fit inside (7 if the rope is pulled in), which would allow for some interesting interactions. If the players know that there should only be six people inside, and try summoning a seventh somehow (bag of tricks, onyx figurine, etc.) and they can't, they would wonder what else is in with them. Or, they could be infested with some kind of fine sized parasite that ends up preventing them all from entering...

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm more or less with Fax here. Nigh undectable safety for hours does not a second-level spell make.

Also, really surprised by all the negativity about nighttime ambushes. How does a mainstay of ambush strategy since time immemorial go from standard fare in 2e to "boo, hiss" in 3.x?

And I'd argue against giving experience to parties that manage to avoid unknown nighttime ambushes by using rope trick. If the party knew of a threat and are hiding, that's fine (if rather more generous than is my norm), but if they are just ignorant cause they were sleeping? That just seems like a bad policy. Smacks of "stay home; safer, and apparently counts as defeating threats."

Finally, bag of holding and portable hole both suggest that there is also a danger when nondimensional and extradimensional spaces interact. BoH is nondimensional, rope trick is extradimensional; a DM could use that as justification for something novel to happen.

To the OP: I'd just use lots of fog and smoke. Make it inconvenient to leave the rope trick. These types of environmental threats will also affect people not in the rope trick, so you don't look like you are picking on the rope trick users.

Alternatively, force the party to use the rope trick to hide. Unless they have scrolls or are preparing it multiple times, they can't sleep in it if they are forced to cast it for a brief hide while in a dangerous place.

[Andezzar]

Well, it looks like they're actually pretty safe while their in the rope trick's extradimensional space! All spell effects are stopped unless they 'work across planes'. No one can teleport in (unless a 'wish' is used, maybe).

The 'window' can't be dispelled by itself... it isn't its own spell, just an effect from the rope trick spell. Meanwhile, the rope trick itself can't be dispelled from outside if the rope is pulled up, since the spell is cast on the rope, and the rope is in an area that is protected from outside spells.You may want to read the spell again. The window is part of the spell. That window is on the prime material plane. Thus the spell (or part of it) is also on the prime material plane. So it can be targeted by the targeted dispel version of dispel magic. If the dispel succeeds the whole spell ends.


It does say that a maximum of 8 creatures 'of any size' can fit inside (7 if the rope is pulled in), which would allow for some interesting interactions. If the players know that there should only be six people inside, and try summoning a seventh somehow (bag of tricks, onyx figurine, etc.) and they can't, they would wonder what else is in with them. Or, they could be infested with some kind of fine sized parasite that ends up preventing them all from entering...Unless it is a creature in one of the books parasites don't count. If they did, no character could ever enter the rope trick, given how many bacteria he carries around with him.


Also, really surprised by all the negativity about nighttime ambushes. How does a mainstay of ambush strategy since time immemorial go from standard fare in 2e to "boo, hiss" in 3.x?No negativity against night time ambushes per se. It's just that clever adventurers will want to avoid them. With rope trick they have a good chance of doing that. Fiating that they can't is not a good solution.


And I'd argue against giving experience to parties that manage to avoid unknown nighttime ambushes by using rope trick. If the party knew of a threat and are hiding, that's fine (if rather more generous than is my norm), but if they are just ignorant cause they were sleeping? That just seems like a bad policy. Smacks of "stay home; safer, and apparently counts as defeating threats."I agree.


Finally, bag of holding and portable hole both suggest that there is also a danger when nondimensional and extradimensional spaces interact.Huh? Rope Trick only talks about the interaction of extradimensional spaces with other extradimensional spaces. Nondimensional spaces are not mentioned.

BoH is nondimensional, rope trick is extradimensional; a DM could use that as justification for something novel to happen.Better inform your players beforehand about radical rules changes, or they will probably be quite frustrated.


To the OP: I'd just use lots of fog and smoke. Make it inconvenient to leave the rope trick. These types of environmental threats will also affect people not in the rope trick, so you don't look like you are picking on the rope trick users.How does fog and/or smoke make being in a rope trick more inconvenient than being outside. If bnoth are equally inconvenient there is no reason either to stay in the rope trick or setting the rope trick up in a more convenient location.

[Phelix-Mu]

BoH and portable hole (nondimensional and extradimensional respectively) interact poorly, as per their respective entries in the DMG. A logical argument could be made that this is because nondimensional and extradimensional spaces also interact poorly in general. I'm not saying it's in the RAW, but the two items both make a big point of saying that bad stuff happens (given a fairly limited case and no real explanation of why). As DM, just make up the why and expand the interaction. Give the players a Knowledge(arcana) to realize this; I'm not suggesting just arbitrarily dumping them on the Astral. That would make problems, not solve them.




How does fog and/or smoke make being in a rope trick more inconvenient than being outside. If bnoth are equally inconvenient there is no reason either to stay in the rope trick or setting the rope trick up in a more convenient location.

If the point of being in the rope trick is to be safe, and you can't tell if it's safe outside because you can't see, this makes the rope trick seem less useful. Of course, it still is useful, as you are safe while it lasts, but eventually you have to leave, and if you can't see.... I'm suggesting that the fog/smoke arrive after they enter the rope trick, by the by; luckily, mornings are often quite foggy.

My suggestion here is just to add trepidation to the overly-cautious wizard on the side of "maybe rope trick doesn't fix all my problems." The wizard will likely still use it, but maybe more judiciously. The OP will likely just have to live with it if the OP can't stomach more aggressive measures (which can work...I like to smoke people out of their holes, but only plausible once it's been seen, and it's unlikely that that will happen every encounter).

Frankly, from a personal perspective, "stuck in a safe but inescapable hole" does not describe my ideal defense measure, at any level. Anything that is keeping me from actually escaping is not good. A nice temporary shelter for a passing threat or impromptu hiding space, yes. But any temporary HQ that doesn't have a back door or teleport allowance is total fail.

[Slipperychicken]

Read my earlier post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16650367&postcount=22). Bags of Holding and Handy Haversacks pose no danger to the Rope Trick or the people in it.

I figured the "hazardous" bit was more of a long-term sort of hazard. Like if all the magical radiation was going to give you prostate cancer or something.

[Andezzar]

If the point of being in the rope trick is to be safe, and you can't tell if it's safe outside because you can't see, this makes the rope trick seem less useful. Of course, it still is useful, as you are safe while it lasts, but eventually you have to leave, and if you can't see.... I'm suggesting that the fog/smoke arrive after they enter the rope trick, by the by; luckily, mornings are often quite foggy.Still, being rested and healed before entering the fog is better than being out in the open and bound to get ambushed all night and then waking up in fog.


My suggestion here is just to add trepidation to the overly-cautious wizard on the side of "maybe rope trick doesn't fix all my problems." The wizard will likely still use it, but maybe more judiciously.It still is a good SOP and you should not generally change that. If circumstances make that procedure impractical or impossible, the wizard should have other options.


The OP will likely just have to live with it if the OP can't stomach more aggressive measures (which can work...I like to smoke people out of their holes, but only plausible once it's been seen, and it's unlikely that that will happen every encounter).Mostly my point and adding that the opposition should have a reason to go after what at least appears to be a hard target instead of other softer targets.


Frankly, from a personal perspective, "stuck in a safe but inescapable hole" does not describe my ideal defense measure, at any level. Anything that is keeping me from actually escaping is not good. A nice temporary shelter for a passing threat or impromptu hiding space, yes. That is exactly what the rope trick is supposed to be. Hide and replenish your resources, soldier on. Long range teleport is not and most likely should not be available at that level. So escape from a traditional camp is not much easier than from a rope trick.


I figured the "hazardous" bit was more of a long-term sort of hazard. Like if all the magical radiation was going to give you prostate cancer or something.Ever heard of Remove Disease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeDisease.htm)?
Even if that could happen, a bag of holding is not a valid item to cause that reaction.

[Fax Celestis]

Maybe the designer simply decided that Rope Trick should have a function besides as a hiding place. Also without extending the spell, Tiny Hut as a camp comes online before Rope Trick.

True, but as stated prior with the lesser metamagic rod of extend, it's cheaper than a +2 stat (on par with +2 armor, actually), so there's no reason a caster worth their salt shouldn't have one.

Further, tiny hut doesn't render you invisible and invincible:
The interior of the hut is a hemisphere. You can illuminate it dimly upon command or extinguish the light as desired. Although the force field is opaque from the outside, it is transparent from within. Missiles, weapons, and most spell effects can pass through the hut without affecting it, although the occupants cannot be seen from outside the hut (they have total concealment).

[Twilightwyrm]

And also mind, avoiding an encounter due to rope trick is just as much succeeding an encounter as fighting it to the death.

It most certainly is not. Ignoring for the moment the whole host of logical problems this brings up (setting up in a high traffic area and auto leveling by "succeeding" the encounter against every random thing that wanders past being just one), the XP section specifically states that "Only characters who take part in an encounter gain the commensurate reward". How many reasonable DMs, do you think, will count "sitting inside my Rope Trick and doing nothing" as "taking part in the encounter"? Yes, there are ways besides combat to overcome encounters, but you notably have to "overcome" rather than "ignore" them, and more importantly, your character needs to do something to help. Hell, if these are the shenanigans the OP's wizard PC is pulling, I would be pissed at him if I was another character too.

[Phelix-Mu]

I don't mind SOP involving rope trick-like stuff, and alarm and such are SOP since ancient times. What I mind is a trick that comes online at 3rd-4th and can counter the kinds of tactics that mechanically powerful opponents won't be using for a half-dozen levels. They just made it too good for a 2nd level spell.

[TheDarkSaint]

Andezzar, there is a small problem with your reasoning for diffrences between extra-dimensional and non-dimensional and their non-interaction with Rope Trick.

In the srd, they describe a portable hole by using both the words extradimensional and nondimensional, in that....

"When spread upon a'ny surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being."

and

"Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space.'

And as I try to wrap my head around what non-dimensional, extradimensional space would look like, I find myself cursing at tesseracts. This is making my brain hurt.

[Psyren]

Wrong, let me walk you through it. CL 4 with extend spell means a duration of exactly 8 hours, which begin immediately once the spell is cast. To enter the rope trick and start resting, they would need at least a move action, most likely more. So one round is subtracted from the duration before the rest starts, and the spell dissipates before the characters have rested their full 8 hours. Dropping out of the air most likely counts as an interruption. Thus the characters have not rested 8 hours and thus neither heal nor regain their spells. That is why they need the extra hour.

(1) Divine casters don't care as they don't need 8 hours rest to regain spells.

(2) You can actually make up the difference outside:


If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells.

So the arcanists/manifesters can sleep 7 hours inside and 2 hours outside under guard by the melee. Plus it's daytime so everyone on watch can see further anyway.

[CombatOwl]

Well, it looks like they're actually pretty safe while their in the rope trick's extradimensional space! All spell effects are stopped unless they 'work across planes'. No one can teleport in (unless a 'wish' is used, maybe).

Which is the point. If the scry succeeds, they're obviously out of the rope trick. Hence why the second spell (teleport) is prefaced by a successful casting of the first (scry).

[Rijan_Sai]

I don't know if this helps at all (it was written by Skip Williams, after all...) but there is a Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a) article with all of this in mind.

Some relevant quotes from it:


Extradimensional spaces are notorious for creating spectacular and dangerous effects when placed inside each other; however, the dangers can be somewhat overrated. One bag of holding can be placed safely inside another (of course, the first bag's weight counts against what the second bag can hold). Likewise, one portable hole can be placed safely inside another.

A bag of holding placed inside a portable hole, however, creates a rift to the Astral Plane. (See the bag of holding excerpt.) Oddly enough, objects aren't drawn through the gate.



Also:


Other interactions between extradimensional spaces are possible. For example, the rope trick and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion both create extradimensional spaces. The rope trick spell description makes a passing mention of "hazards" associated with placing one extradimensional space inside another, but gives no details. (See the rope trick excerpt.)


From the rope trick description on page 273 of the Player's Handbook:

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.
I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. A Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion should likewise prove benign if someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside.



Considering the source, use this as you will...

[Pickford]

So, I'm DM-ing a campaign in which I allowed more or less different material from all sources because it's the first time I'm doing a campaign that is not prewritten. Obviously, problems come with casters, but hey, those are the breaks I guess.

So, one of the players plays a wizard and does all kinds of things with him. I can expect a lot of cheese and hair pulling and the like. For now though, it's the rope trick spell. I hate it, and I know a few players hate it as well because it destroys a lot of the tone of travelling overlands(I'm still dealing with the teleportation in this setting, trying to think of a way that goes maybe from node to node instead of everywhere and anywhere) and lessens chance encounters and the like. I already nerfed the existence of the window in it, so they are basically blind and I got no complaints(strangely enough).

Now, would it be mean or unrealistic to expect if they have horses and the like that if there is an intelligent CR that stumbled upon them(with a caster in the mix) that they would detect said hole in the air and then prepare an ambush? A letter with explosive runes attached to the horses, waiting in ambush and letting loose a volley of arrows and spells into them, all kinds of things that would seriously hurt them(though I'd try and refrain from killing them)?

So...your players are using rope trick and just leaving their horses and other valuables in plain sight on the ground?

If I'm summarizing that accurately, the following are realistic:

1) Animals (and any associated belongings) get taken. Players may or may not notice/hear/see this depending on if they set up a watch or not.

2) Things get eaten/destroyed. (Wandering Monster).

3) Someone/thing curious about the random horses and gear sticks around to see if anything happens. This could be someone who cares about animals and is wondering where they came from, it doesn't have to even be sinister, but it could be a good way to explain to the players, via an NPC, that bad things could have happened from just leaving your animals undefended in the wilderness.

[Andezzar]

@The Dark Saint: I already wrote that portable wholes, contrary to Bags of Holding and Handy Haversacks, could be problematic. I still think giving out a 20k gp item in the hope that the PCs will open it within the rope trick and something bad would happen, is a very poor way of trying to deter them from using Rope Trick.

[Telok]

The only thing that I would do in this situation, if I were DM, would be to make sure that there ate intelligent (and/or horse hungry) creatures on the random encounter list and play the random encounters straight.

Griffons and bulettes will try to eat the horses regardless of adventurers or Rope Trick. If the beasts succeed in taking down a horse or two then the other horses are scattered and scavengers like wolves and heyenas will come in to feast on the remaining horse carcass.

Intelligent encounters will react intelligently within the constraints of their abilities. A hunting party of gnoll rangers will observe the area, check for tracks, and steal the horses. With tracking they may find the spot below the Rope Trick where the party diappeared. If that happens they probably won't fool with it or set up an ambush, this is unknown magic that could be dangerous or have no reward. What they certainly would do is tell their tribal elders and shaman when they returned with the tasty horse-flesh. The players could end up with more than a single random gnoll encounter, they could have an entire warband traching them and looking for Rope Tricks to build a fire under and smoke the PCs out.

Likewise not all encounters have to be with hostile monsters. The players can miss damsels in distress who cry out in the night. A count's carrage may zoom past on the road while being chased by bandits. Pixies could pass by and put permanent illusions on your horses as a joke, imagine waking up to find your horses gone while some fiendish dire wolves stand around your camp. The PCs could miss an orc raid on a nearby village by sleeping in a Rope Trick, the result of which is that they don't know that there is an Oge Magi leading the orcs.

Note also that things like Phase Spiders and Etherial Filchers may be able to reach into a Rope Trick. It would suck to be trapped in a tiny space with a giant poisonous spider that gets the first move.

In my game even the random encounters are part of the plot. In my setting there's an area where all the insects and animals are giant sized and there's a reason for that, but if the PCs avoid the area and the encounters then they may never find out. I had one area in the game where a town was supporting bandits near other towns in order to affect trade and travel. The PCs missed the whole thing three times due to using Phantom Steeds and going 50 mile per hour, the bandits weren't going to bother with high powered magic users so they let them pass. Two months later all trade and travel in the area had dried up unless there was a small army of guards, so the price of food, drink, and inn rooms went up as well. Eventually the king sent a party of adventurers to clear out the bandits, but not the PCs because they were already there and obviously hadn't been able to do anything. In my games skipping random encounters leads to skipping bits of the plot and not having complete information on what's happening.

[Yukitsu]

It most certainly is not. Ignoring for the moment the whole host of logical problems this brings up (setting up in a high traffic area and auto leveling by "succeeding" the encounter against every random thing that wanders past being just one), the XP section specifically states that "Only characters who take part in an encounter gain the commensurate reward". How many reasonable DMs, do you think, will count "sitting inside my Rope Trick and doing nothing" as "taking part in the encounter"? Yes, there are ways besides combat to overcome encounters, but you notably have to "overcome" rather than "ignore" them, and more importantly, your character needs to do something to help. Hell, if these are the shenanigans the OP's wizard PC is pulling, I would be pissed at him if I was another character too.

The first part is pretty simple in that just because it exists, doesn't mean it's an encounter. If you sit in a hugely populated city and "win" thousands of encounters of commoners walking by you, you aren't actually getting into any encounters to win. There is no objective there, the commoners don't pose a threat that you're trying to hide from, avoid or overcome.

The point of a random combat encounter is simply to survive. I'm not sure what else you want out of them. I'd hazard a guess that if the party was hidden in a mundane way, no one would have a problem with this.

[Phelix-Mu]

It's not a threat if there is no interaction between one party and the other. You can't overcome a theoretical challenge. "If they each knew the other party was there and could reach them, there would have been a fight." But there wasn't.

[Togo]

Add bat swarm or vampire bat swarm to your random night encounters. The fact that the window is invisible isn't even going to slow them down, and the party have put themselves packed into a small crowded space from which they can't easily escape. A smokey fire would put them off of course, but the adventurers don't have one.

More generally, magic is supposed to be effective, but limited use and with severe practical limitations. So as a DM you need to make sure that during the game it is useful most of the time, and that you exploit the practical limitations every so often.

If you want to capture the feel of outdoors adventuring, thrown in some NPCs to talk to. That's something to talk about around the campfire of an evening, and too many people to fit into the space.

[ryu]

Add bat swarm or vampire bat swarm to your random night encounters. The fact that the window is invisible isn't even going to slow them down, and the party have put themselves packed into a small crowded space from which they can't easily escape. A smokey fire would put them off of course, but the adventurers don't have one.

More generally, magic is supposed to be effective, but limited use and with severe practical limitations. So as a DM you need to make sure that during the game it is useful most of the time, and that you exploit the practical limitations every so often.

If you want to capture the feel of outdoors adventuring, thrown in some NPCs to talk to. That's something to talk about around the campfire of an evening, and too many people to fit into the space.

Intruders? When the rope is pulled in seven creatures total regardless of size fit. Just buy hamsters or whatever pets your party likes until you hit seven. The bats just can't get in.

[Phelix-Mu]

Intruders? When the rope is pulled in seven creatures total regardless of size fit. Just buy hamsters or whatever pets your party likes until you hit seven. The bats just can't get in.

Well, now we just need threats that aren't creatures. I suggest green slime for many of these cases. Might be difficult to get it up there, but it's an object, not a creature. I guess one could levitate it up. It's also exactly the opposite of the kind of thing you want to be in an enclosed space with. DMG 76, for those of you looking for a book reference. Just give it to some kobolds or something, and stand back.

[ryu]

Well, now we just need threats that aren't creatures. I suggest green slime for many of these cases. Might be difficult to get it up there, but it's an object, not a creature. I guess one could levitate it up. It's also exactly the opposite of the kind of thing you want to be in an enclosed space with. DMG 76, for those of you looking for a book reference. Just give it to some kobolds or something, and stand back.

Orbs of fire/fiery burst if those are used up. Also abrupt jaunt defenses if this is a low level campaign.

[Alent]

Overthinking ways to screw over Rope Trick users aside.. Why not just take the spell away and give them an interesting alternative item that meshes with your tone?

It sounds to me like the wizard wants something with privacy to avoid losing use of his class feature for a day, rather than real safety from attacks, especially if the group is willing to leave their camp beneath it.

Have you tried offering a compromise with the offending wizard- remove ropetrick from his spellbook and give him a Hayward's Bedroll? (... I think that was the item name- lets you sleep 2 hours to gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep.) Or maybe some kind of incense he can burn to achieve the same effect? Seems to me I saw both of those options in a Bunko's bargain basement thread once.

He may see night time events differently if they don't rob him of his class features.

[Yukitsu]

It's not a threat if there is no interaction between one party and the other. You can't overcome a theoretical challenge. "If they each knew the other party was there and could reach them, there would have been a fight." But there wasn't.

Normally, the people in the rope trick do know that there was an encounter that went by. Similarly, do you run it so that bypassing an encounter with stealth would not count as beating it?

[TypoNinja]

I don't know if this helps at all (it was written by Skip Williams, after all...) but there is a Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a) article with all of this in mind.

Some relevant quotes from it:



Also:



Considering the source, use this as you will...

I'm with Skip on this one. If I wanted a game where anything and everything could lead to my untimely demise I'd play Paranoia. For the same reason we buy bags of holding (Tracking encumbrance, while realistic, is not exactly fun) I don't want to wonder what horrible thing is coming next. If I wanted to worry about constant backstabs, ambushes, and people trying to kill me while I sleep I'd play a WoD game.

You say you as a DM don't like rope trick because it makes it easy for your players to not get screwed over by you. (And lets be fair, you want to set up a combat while people are low on spells, melee inst in their armor, and only one or two PC's would be on watch. This is your best chance at killing them outright without them being able to try anything to prevent it.) That's fine motivation for you, but in case you forgot, you have players in the game too who want their enjoyment. Is the experience of any of your players going to be improved by your desire to make it easier to ambush them? What are they getting in exchange for you removing this useful tool from their arsenal? Is this change making anybody but you happy?

[Der_DWSage]

Erm. There's a lot of talk about how having Bags of Holding and Portable Holes inside Rope Trick might cause everything to explode. And frankly, I see it going one of two ways.

A)It causes explosions.

Fighter:Hey Fizban, I'm gonna get some water from the bag. Want some?

Fizban:Sure, but you'll have to go outside to get it. Being a sensible wizard, I buried it under the ground before we entered the hole. People aren't likely to stumble over it that way. Don't bring it in with you. If you bring it in here, it's likely to cause explosions, and I'll be very cross with you.

or B)It doesn't cause explosions

Fizban:Boy, I sure am glad that I can have my numerous canteens of delicious water! There's absolutely no drawbacks to Rope Trick whatsoever!



...Yeah, I'm personally of a mind to reduce Rope Trick to the Pathfinder version where you can't pull up the rope, and then further reduce it to a 10 minute/level duration. You want safety while you camp? Have a competent Ranger or Druid with you who can hide your camp. Or start pulling out the higher level spells.

[Drachasor]

I do think Rope Trick is probably a little too good for its level -- compared to the other hiding/resting spells.* However, I think this is most easily adjusted simply by making the entrance much easier to see...either DC 20 or a DC equal to the spell DC.

I think the biggest benefit to Rope Trick is that it allows Alarm to be more worthwhile. Normally the area of Alarm is really too small to be much good in practical terms, especially if you have mounts. With Rope Trick, you can have much more easily defend the camp with one Alarm at low levels.

Another option is to simply double or triple the radius of Alarm (to 40 or 60 feet). Imho, half the reason Rope Trick is so valued is that there aren't a whole bunch of low level options that are worthwhile.

*Consider Tiny Hut. 3rd level, sure it "comes online" sooner without Extend, but it only holds 8 medium creatures. So no horses. With a party of 4, Rope Trick holds the party AND their horses. They just need to clear the horses 5 feet into the air (lots of ways to do that). Add to that being pretty much completely indetectable (DC 40), and it is pretty crazy overall. Combat use is a little bit worse, but you can still make a Rope Trick 25-some feet up into the air for an ambush, and an rogue can get sneak attacks from it, similar to Tiny Hut. TH being a bit easier to use this way makes some sense, it is a level higher. TH being generally worse otherwise though...ick.

[Andezzar]

Exactly. An alarm does not help that much if all it does is waking up before you get knifed in the kidneys.

Also I'm not quite sure, what "anyone within 60 feet of the warded area can hear it clearly" is supposed to mean for sleeping characters.

[ericgrau]

So, I'm DM-ing a campaign in which I allowed more or less different material from all sources because it's the first time I'm doing a campaign that is not prewritten. Obviously, problems come with casters, but hey, those are the breaks I guess.

So, one of the players plays a wizard and does all kinds of things with him. I can expect a lot of cheese and hair pulling and the like. For now though, it's the rope trick spell. I hate it, and I know a few players hate it as well because it destroys a lot of the tone of travelling overlands(I'm still dealing with the teleportation in this setting, trying to think of a way that goes maybe from node to node instead of everywhere and anywhere) and lessens chance encounters and the like. I already nerfed the existence of the window in it, so they are basically blind and I got no complaints(strangely enough).

Now, would it be mean or unrealistic to expect if they have horses and the like that if there is an intelligent CR that stumbled upon them(with a caster in the mix) that they would detect said hole in the air and then prepare an ambush? A letter with explosive runes attached to the horses, waiting in ambush and letting loose a volley of arrows and spells into them, all kinds of things that would seriously hurt them(though I'd try and refrain from killing them)?
Yeah pretty much that works. Or anything involving intelligent foes. I'd give a couple warning encounters indicating that a rope trick without covering your tracks or one dead center in the Evil Lair of Doom to Heroes is a pretty dumb move. But after that, if the enemy is strong enough to make a good setup, TPK away. Or more likely if the foe gathers an overwhelming force they would capture the PCs and negotiate a ransom. The players might escape but if so this will most likely be part of a rescue mission with outside help because most PCs aren't sneaky oriented.

And at that point you may want to put the window back. Up to you.

[Dalebert]

Also I'm not quite sure, what "anyone within 60 feet of the warded area can hear it clearly" is supposed to mean for sleeping characters.

Sleeping means you get a straight difficulty modifier to your listen checks. I seem to recall it's -10. A noise described like that probably has a negative DC to start with that would be modified by distance: -1 per 10 feet, I believe, plus any other modifiers like sleeping.

Confirmed per d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm).

I suspect an alarm would be at least as loud as a battle, i.e. DC -10, since it is specifically designed to be loud.

[Andezzar]

Sleeping means you get a straight difficulty modifier to your listen checks. I seem to recall it's -10. A noise described like that probably has a negative DC to start with that would be modified by distance: -1 per 10 feet, I believe, plus any other modifiers like sleeping.

Confirmed per d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm).

I suspect an alarm would be at least as loud as a battle, i.e. DC -10, since it is specifically designed to be loud.Yes it will probably loud enough to wake the characters, but it probably does not provide the instant awakening that the mental alarm provides. So going from sleeping and hearing the alarm to full awareness could take a round or two, which might mean it is too late anyways.

[Angelalex242]

Or, as they get out of their rope trick one day...

"You climb out of your rope trick into the prismatic sphere which completely surrounds your rope trick opening. Should you run out of time in your rope trick, you will fall through the sphere, suffering all effects...you've got perhaps 3 minutes remaining..."

Roll lots of saving throws, DC a lot...

[Slipperychicken]

"You climb out of your rope trick into the prismatic sphere which completely surrounds your rope trick opening. Should you run out of time in your rope trick, you will fall through the sphere, suffering all effects...you've got perhaps 3 minutes remaining..."

Roll lots of saving throws, DC a lot...

By the levels where that's an issue (i.e. when a CR-appropriate opponent could do that to them), they should have all-day flight up. Then they can just wait it out.

[Andezzar]

By the levels where that's an issue (i.e. when a CR-appropriate opponent could do that to them), they should have all-day flight up. Then they can just wait it out.Stinking cloud is available at level 5.

[Slipperychicken]

Stinking cloud is available at level 5.

That spell is rounds/level (i.e. lasts for 30 seconds at CL 5). It would require incredible timing and patience to plant it on the entrance at the exact moment the party wanted to come out, such that they need to do so.

Not to mention that it would necessitate the PCs leaving less than 30 seconds before the Rope Trick expired.

[skyth]

All I can say is let the player play with his toys. Don't try to screw them over unless it makes sense...If they pop it in the middle of a lair there might be a chance it would be detected. If they pop it in the wilderness, they should be fine.

It's like making them roll to hit for magic missile or making everything immune to critical hits when you have a rogue in the party.

[Slipperychicken]

All I can say is let the player play with his toys. Don't try to screw them over unless it makes sense...If they pop it in the middle of a lair there might be a chance it would be detected. If they pop it in the wilderness, they should be fine.

It's like making them roll to hit for magic missile or making everything immune to critical hits when you have a rogue in the party.

I agree with this because Rope Trick isn't that bad. It just means blowing a spell in the right circumstances to avoid an encounter (not overcome the encounter, mind you, just avoid it).

[Andezzar]

That spell is rounds/level (i.e. lasts for 30 seconds at CL 5). It would require incredible timing and patience to plant it on the entrance at the exact moment the party wanted to come out, such that they need to do so.

Not to mention that it would necessitate the PCs leaving less than 30 seconds before the Rope Trick expired.Wow, I just found out that prismatic sphere lasts 10min/level. Anyways readying an action to cast it once someone gets out, would be a suitable divide and conquer strategy. So what will the PCs do? Help their nauseated comrade or wait it out, possibly being hit with either the next stinking cloud or the same one. The next one could even be aimed so that they have to fall through it, if they wait till the duration of the rope trick expires.

[Slipperychicken]

Wow, I just found out that prismatic sphere lasts 10min/level. Anyways readying an action to cast it once someone gets out, would be a suitable divide and conquer strategy. So what will the PCs do? Help their nauseated comrade or wait it out, possibly being hit with either the next stinking cloud or the same one. The next one could even be aimed so that they have to fall through it, if they wait till the duration of the rope trick expires.

1. When Prismatic Sphere becomes available, the PCs can wait it out by flying, or otherwise avoid falling through it via dozens of spells.

2. Unless the caster is also inside the Prismatic Sphere, it doesn't block spells or attacks. Characters inside can target spells and attacks at the caster if they wish.


Prismatic Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prismaticSphere.htm) Excerpt

You can pass into and out of the prismatic sphere and remain near it without harm. However, when you’re inside it, the sphere blocks any attempt to project something through the sphere (including spells). Other creatures that attempt to attack you or pass through suffer the effects of each color, one at a time.

2a. This means that unless the spellcaster is also inside the sphere, the PCs can teleport/dimension door out of the sphere, assuming that they

3. Nauseated characters can still take move actions to go back inside.

4. Stinking Cloud is not damaging.

5. A PC spellcaster at a level where his opponents are throwing around 9th level spells can simply cast a polymorph effect (or another, similar spell) while inside the Rope Trick to render himself immune to nausea, walk out with the other PCs, and then teleport them away.

[Aquillion]

Now, would it be mean or unrealistic to expect if they have horses and the like that if there is an intelligent CR that stumbled upon them(with a caster in the mix) that they would detect said hole in the air and then prepare an ambush? A letter with explosive runes attached to the horses, waiting in ambush and letting loose a volley of arrows and spells into them, all kinds of things that would seriously hurt them(though I'd try and refrain from killing them)?Why on earth would anyone in their right mind do that? If they're bandits, they'll just steal the horses -- what's that point in picking a fight with a caster when you can easily grab some valuable stuff and run? Bandits and thieves aren't out to pick fights, they're out to grab valuables.

If they're not bandits -- well, who does that? Are they random psychopaths who go around trying to hurt or kill people hiding in a Rope Trick out of vicious hate for the spell itself?

If they use it in the middle of a wizard's lair or an evil base or something, definitely someone might detect the Rope Trick; but if they use it in the wilderness it's probably safe (especially if they go off the beaten path a bit first -- truthfully, Rope Trick isn't that impressive then because it's unlikely anyone is going to discover them anyway.)

If you don't want people to use Rope Trick, don't try to punish them for using it; don't waste time trying to think of a clever nerf or whatever. Just say "Rope Trick is not an available spell in this setting." Done. Or, if you still want it to be available for other tricks, shorten the duration as someone mentioned above.

(It feels like you're trying to punish the player in question for doing something you don't like; that's not a good road to go down. Just tell him not to do it instead.)


Loot? Experience? Because he wants to eliminate the competition? Hell, the party wizard has a spellbook, doesn't he? Going and snuffing some weak adventurers is probably cheaper than going and buying all those spells in a store. It's not like this plan requires that the wizard disrupt his magical item creation (since he can only do 8 hours of that a day anyway, and any high-level wizard has already eliminated the need to sleep more than 2 hours a day, and the need to eat).

In other words, for basically the same reason that parties go adventuring.



How do you figure? Wizards need money and experience for crafting magic items. Killing random parties of adventurers and taking their stuff is a time-honored and time-efficient way of solving both problems. What, you think PCs are the only people interested in loot and XP? You think PCs are not themselves placed somewhere in the cycle of murderhoboism? Sometimes they are the murderhobos, sometimes they are the encounter.

Besides, have you ever looked at a random encounter table? "Why" is barely even a real consideration.



Yes, and the best way to guard against other wizards is to show how much of a badass you are by wiping out the would-be competition and selling their gear in exchange for money to forge immensely magical artifacts.If you're going to go down that route, why stop here? High-level wizards who want to fight PC parties or grab their gear aren't going to waste time randomly wandering around hoping they stumble across a Rope Trick. They're going to Scry to find a party of the appropriate level when they're vulnerable, then Teleport in (with high-level allies, summons and buffs already up, and, if high-level enough, under a Time Stop) to murder the player party without warning. This will happen at random to all groups of adventurers high enough level to have magic items, regardless of what they do -- Rope Trick has nothing to do with it. If you ever let your guard down even for a second, ever, a higher-level wizard and his adventuring party will teleport in, already-buffed and ready to right, and murder you to take your stuff.

(This is why we get the stereotype of a high-level wizard who never leaves his teleport-warded fortified bunker in his private demiplane, except to teleport-murder someone else. And even then he technically sends Ice Assassins rather than risking himself.)

[TuggyNE]

Note that prismatic sphere is not hollow: the entirety of the sphere is filled with the colors. As such, it is possible for the caster to be within the sphere, yet protected from others that are also inside it.

[Andezzar]

1. When Prismatic Sphere becomes available, the PCs can wait it out by flying, or otherwise avoid falling through it via dozens of spells.Woops my post was really unclear. everything besides the duration was supposed to be about stinking cloud used against the party level 5 group.


3. Nauseated characters can still take move actions to go back inside.Gah, I confused that with similar condition from another game where you can do nothing but stand around and retch.

[Slipperychicken]

Gah, I confused that with similar condition from another game where you can do nothing but stand around and retch.

Nausea is really debilitating, though. Movement is basically all an affected creature can do.


Nauseated
Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.

[Neknoh]

I honestly think Telok has the best idea, still roll for random encounters if you want to use them and act accordingly, have the adventurer's finding things the next day, signs of a struggle etc. You could even provoke the adventurers into following a trail of torn clothes and murdered horses (theirs included) and end up walking into a large Orc camp that attacked a trade caravan.

Make adventures out of what they don't experience, incorporate it. And if you don't feel like setting something big up that particular day, have the horses transmogrified into large goats or direwolves (again as per Telok), see how the players react after killing a direwolf and realizing it was a horse.

Use the Rope Trick, don't fight it, just think around it and you'll find that the people that DO want to have encounters will start sleeping outside because of everything they miss when they sleep inside. Make it abundantly clear they've missed something huge.

"Why are there strange circles all over the field we slept above?"

[Andezzar]

Use the Rope Trick, don't fight it, just think around it and you'll find that the people that DO want to have encounters will start sleeping outside because of everything they miss when they sleep inside. Make it abundantly clear they've missed something huge.

"Why are there strange circles all over the field we slept above?"Yeah adventurers are weird that way. They always get distracted by all sorts of stuff instead of getting the job done with the least possible danger to themselves.

[Bronk]

Originally Posted by Andezzar
You may want to read the spell again. The window is part of the spell. That window is on the prime material plane. Thus the spell (or part of it) is also on the prime material plane. So it can be targeted by the targeted dispel version of dispel magic. If the dispel succeeds the whole spell ends.

True... the part of the spell. It is the effect of the spell, which is cast on the rope, which is in turn protected inside the rope trick. At best, the window could be targeted and be 'temporarily suppressed' as part of an ongoing effect.


Originally posted by Dispel Magic
You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell.

You would need an area transdimensional spell to do what you are suggesting.

[Andezzar]

True... the part of the spell. It is the effect of the spell, which is cast on the rope, which is in turn protected inside the rope trick. At best, the window could be targeted and be 'temporarily suppressed' as part of an ongoing effect.
There is no rope, despite the name of the spell. Everything, the rope, the window, the extradimensional space is part of the effect of the spell.

[Alent]

There is no rope, despite the name of the spell. Everything, the rope, the window, the extradimensional space is part of the effect of the spell.

The rope is the focus of the spell, I thought?

It's kind of a silly idea, tho'. Why would you waste a spell slot when you can just throw an eggshell grenade full of dust of sneezing and choking inside and collect adventurer shaped loot as it pours out?

I still stand by my earlier suggestion - Play give and take with the wizard. Give him a setting appropriate way to let him get his spells back even if he gets in a night ambush, and he stops using rope trick because he doesn't need it anymore.

[Psyren]

True... the part of the spell. It is the effect of the spell, which is cast on the rope, which is in turn protected inside the rope trick. At best, the window could be targeted and be 'temporarily suppressed' as part of an ongoing effect.

There is no "temporary suppression." Rope Trick is not a magic item; if you dispel the window you dispel the whole effect. (There is no way to dispel "part of an effect" anyway.)

The idea of pulling the rope up is so that enemies hopefully don't know there's something there to dispel. You're vulnerable to dispel no matter what you do.

[Andezzar]

The rope is the focus of the spell, I thought?You are mistaken. Rope trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm) only has verbal somatic and material components. The material components is not a rope. Even if it were, the material component is consumed in the casting, so it would no longer exist during the duration of the spell.


It's kind of a silly idea, tho'. Why would you waste a spell slot when you can just throw an eggshell grenade full of dust of sneezing and choking inside and collect adventurer shaped loot as it pours out?because you have dispel magic but no eggshell grenades?
The RAW is silent on whether such an object would pass through the window.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah adventurers are weird that way. They always get distracted by all sorts of stuff instead of getting the job done with the least possible danger to themselves.

This one reason why I like the idea of XP for gold earned through adventuring. It doesn't matter how many kobolds you butcher as long as you get make it back to town with the loot.

Or just any system which doesn't incentivize needless murder. Needless murder is it's own reward :smalltongue:

[Bronk]

There is no rope, despite the name of the spell. Everything, the rope, the window, the extradimensional space is part of the effect of the spell.

There is a rope: "When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long". You start with a rope, which you then cast the 'rope trick' spell on. One end rises into the air, and the extradimensional space and window are formed.

The extradimensional space and the window are both effects of the spell which has been cast on the rope. The window is not a physical window, but an extradimensional interface that you can see out of as if it were a window.

Finally, 'dispel magic' has a target of 'One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst'. Spell effects aren't listed as targets. As for the burst option, "For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell." However, the point of origin of the spell is the rope, which is out of bounds if it was pulled into the trick.

So, to sum up, there is a rope, it is magic for the duration of the spell, and as written, if the rope is pulled in, the people inside are safe (except from transdimensional spells).

Now, there is this line from the burst option of 'dispel magic': "For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area." That is the only way to negate the window's invisibility.

[Andezzar]

OK there is a rope, but the targeted dispel works: First off all, I'm not aware that a spell effect is not an object. Secondly the text for the targeted dispel explicitly lists a spell as valid target:
You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired.

One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.
Rope Trick is an ongoing spell that has been cast on an object (the rope). Since you only want to dispel one spell and not all spells on the rope, the target is the Rope Trick spell, not the rope itself, which is not available.

[Bronk]

I'm not aware that a spell effect is not an object. Secondly the text for the targeted dispel explicitly lists a spell as valid target

I'm not finding anywhere that states that spell effects are ever objects. It looks like Conjuration spells can create or summon an object, but rope trick is a Transmutation spell which can 'change the properties of some creature, thing or condition'. In this case the effect is to turn the rope into a magic rope that makes the extradimensional space. Magic is weird.


Rope Trick is an ongoing spell that has been cast on an object (the rope). Since you only want to dispel one spell and not all spells on the rope, the target is the Rope Trick spell, not the rope itself, which is not available.

By this interpretation, the spell is still on the rope, and the rope is not available because it is out of bounds (except to transdimensional spells).

[Psyren]

No matter what you do with the rope, the interface of the Rope Trick itself is explicitly on the Material Plane. Even if you argue that a targeted dispel won't work because there is no object to cast it on (which is false since spells themselves can explicitly be targeted, but anyway), an area dispel still will.

[TypoNinja]

No matter what you do with the rope, the interface of the Rope Trick itself is explicitly on the Material Plane. Even if you argue that a targeted dispel won't work because there is no object to cast it on (which is false since spells themselves can explicitly be targeted, but anyway), an area dispel still will.

I don't think so.

The spell is transmutation, it changes local space, creating an extradimensial pocket. You have Transmuted Space. But here's the thing, all your Transmuted Space is no longer on the Material Plane.

The "window" is not literally a window. Spell text indicates you can see out "As if" a window of the given size exists. Spell text also explicitly forbids spell effects from crossing it, and states that someone outside cannot see in. You have no Line of Effect, Nor Line of Sight. It also forbids spells from crossing the extradimensional interface.

The best I'd give you with a dispel magic is suppressing the invisibility effect on the window. You want to Dispel it you need to pull out a Transdimensional Spell Dispel Magic. Technically even that might not work since Rope Trick specifies spells can't cross its extradimensional interface, but considering transdimensional Spell is supposed to be able to I'd say its an exception.

[Andezzar]

As I quoted before a a spell itself can be targeted instead of the target of that spell. The window is on the prime material plane (or wherever Rope Trick was cast). Thus the rope trick can be targeted.

Secondly the spell never states that the outer surface of the extradimensional container is outside the prime material plane. Only its contents is there.

Thirdly:
Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it.So the interface (or window) must exist on both planes, otherwise no spell could even reach the interface.

[Captnq]

if you wanted to have people detect them, why did you Nix the window?

The window that lets you look out is in fact DUN-DUN-DUNNNN scrying!

If I'm looking at another universe from a pocket universe, that's scrying, any way you put it. it might not be the spell, but it is a scrying-like effect, and therefore is detectable.

"Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check."

So everybody with an int of 12 rolls a DC 20 check every five minutes or so that they hang out in the area. Or every time they state they are going to search, or make a spot check. It isn't a spot check, BTW, it's a Int check. So the chance is low, but there is no way to hide it. Nondetection won't help. It's already invisible, so that won't help.

See, this is the part of Rope Trick that bothers me. Everyone forgets that the window is open ALL THE TIME. If you are just off the trail, then a caravan walks by, with 20 people of int 12 or better, SOMEONE is gonna roll a 19 or better.

Now then, you are in the rope trick, and the bandits have seen you. Well, only one person can come out at a time. If the bandits have dispell magic they can dispel it and everyone takes falling damage and THEN the bandits get surprise. Good chance the party is out of their armor. Smart Bandits will Look for rope tricks. Easy pickings if the morons were dumb enough to be up 30 feet and take falling damage AND lying prone.

And hey, maybe you got a wizard who invested in extradimensional metamagic feat. For a +1 Adjustment, I can fireball a Rope trick and those people inside have to suck it. I personally do not think you can use evasion or and dex/dodge based effects inside a rope trick. It's cramped enough. Where you gonna "evade" to?

But You nixed the window. NOW there is no way for anyone to detect the rope trick unless they are walking along with Detect magic up, and if the players are smart, they will always be 35 feet off the ground, well outside the range of Detect Magic.

Give them back the window. Say how wrong you were and how the internet corrected you. Then have the next group of bandits have a 7th level wizard. Dispel magic + falling PCs x A group of bandits surrounding the now prone PCs in the same square / how quickly they can scramble to their feet in an unoccupied square = Slaughter.

[Andezzar]

Saying this is a scrying effect is a pretty large leap. Nothing in the rules says so or even implies it. Looking at places from elsewhere is divination, Rope Trick is transmutation.

[ahenobarbi]

Make adventures out of what they don't experience, incorporate it. And if you don't feel like setting something big up that particular day, have the horses transmogrified into large goats or direwolves (again as per Telok), see how the players react after killing a direwolf and realizing it was a horse.

Well technically horses can't become werewolfs (the template can be applied only to humanoids and giants.

Also motivating characters to not use Rope Trick because "We could have woken up in the middle of the night and fight for our lives! And possibly be afflicted with terrible curse! And we missed all that thanks to yor stupid spell!"... seriously? I say it would only prove that spell works as Wizard advertised it ;)


Why on earth would anyone in their right mind do that? If they're bandits, they'll just steal the horses -- what's that point in picking a fight with a caster when you can easily grab some valuable stuff and run? Bandits and thieves aren't out to pick fights, they're out to grab valuables.

If they're not bandits -- well, who does that? Are they random psychopaths who go around trying to hurt or kill people hiding in a Rope Trick out of vicious hate for the spell itself?

If they use it in the middle of a wizard's lair or an evil base or something, definitely someone might detect the Rope Trick; but if they use it in the wilderness it's probably safe (especially if they go off the beaten path a bit first -- truthfully, Rope Trick isn't that impressive then because it's unlikely anyone is going to discover them anyway.)

If you don't want people to use Rope Trick, don't try to punish them for using it; don't waste time trying to think of a clever nerf or whatever. Just say "Rope Trick is not an available spell in this setting." Done. Or, if you still want it to be available for other tricks, shorten the duration as someone mentioned above.

(It feels like you're trying to punish the player in question for doing something you don't like; that's not a good road to go down. Just tell him not to do it instead.)

If you're going to go down that route, why stop here? High-level wizards who want to fight PC parties or grab their gear aren't going to waste time randomly wandering around hoping they stumble across a Rope Trick. They're going to Scry to find a party of the appropriate level when they're vulnerable, then Teleport in (with high-level allies, summons and buffs already up, and, if high-level enough, under a Time Stop) to murder the player party without warning. This will happen at random to all groups of adventurers high enough level to have magic items, regardless of what they do -- Rope Trick has nothing to do with it. If you ever let your guard down even for a second, ever, a higher-level wizard and his adventuring party will teleport in, already-buffed and ready to right, and murder you to take your stuff.

(This is why we get the stereotype of a high-level wizard who never leaves his teleport-warded fortified bunker in his private demiplane, except to teleport-murder someone else. And even then he technically sends Ice Assassins rather than risking himself.)

++


Just let the player use the spell. And remind others there still is plenty of danger for them to encounter in the 16 hours a day their characters are not sleeping.

And if they say they need theyir fix midnight life endangerment give send dreams cape assassins after them :smallcool:

[Killer Angel]

if you wanted to have people detect them, why did you Nix the window?

The window that lets you look out is in fact DUN-DUN-DUNNNN scrying!

If I'm looking at another universe from a pocket universe, that's scrying, any way you put it. it might not be the spell, but it is a scrying-like effect, and therefore is detectable.

"Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check."

So everybody with an int of 12 rolls a DC 20 check every five minutes or so that they hang out in the area.

That would be nice, but we're going into house rules.

The spell says "The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible"
And the definition of invisible, is "Visually undetectable" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible).

That would be a nice fix, anyway.

[Psyren]

I don't think so.

The spell is transmutation, it changes local space, creating an extradimensial pocket. You have Transmuted Space. But here's the thing, all your Transmuted Space is no longer on the Material Plane.

No, it is an effect of the spell. The fact that it's transmutation means nothing. Transmutations can create spell effects too - for instance, Disintegrate creates a ray, and that ray can be affected by other spells like Ray Deflection. And Whispering Wind creates an "envelope" for your message, but it can be stopped by enclosures like a forcecage.

The fact that it's invisible similarly means nothing. It is part of the spell, and it is there, thus it is subject to being dispelled. Even if they can't see it to target their spell, they can still use an area dispel and get it. The wise wizard at high levels should probably set a Transdimensional Alarm outside of the interface.

[Fax Celestis]

That would be nice, but we're going into house rules.

The spell says "The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible"
And the definition of invisible, is "Visually undetectable" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible).

That would be a nice fix, anyway.

You missed the mechanical definition of invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility):


Invisibility
Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.

Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible.

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.

Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help.

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.

Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.

[Togo]

Which is why the one thing scry-and-die doesn't do is let you is take people unawares - the scrying sensor is extremely easy to spot, and at the kind of levels where scrying becomes available an adventuring party will spot it almost immediately.

[ericgrau]

A spot check doesn't let you see the invisible. It doesn't tell you what the invisible thing is. It doesn't even tell you roughly where the invisible thing is unless you add 20 to the DC. It only tells you that there is an invisible creature somewhere roughly in some direction. Which I suppose could put you on general alert. Plus the invisibility spot detection rules are for creatures. For a flying scrying sensor the same spot DC is questionable because it's supposed to be based on visual clues from disturbing the surrounding environment. You might be better off with the DC 20 int check or spells to find it. By RAW there is no DC given for a moving object, only an inanimate one. If you use the DC 40.

And I didn't even read how this thread got here. Wow, tangents.

[Fax Celestis]

A spot check doesn't let you see the invisible. It doesn't tell you what the invisible thing is. It doesn't even tell you roughly where the invisible thing is unless you add 20 to the DC. It only tells you that there is an invisible creature somewhere roughly in some direction. Which I suppose could put you on general alert. Plus the invisibility spot detection rules are for creatures. For a flying scrying sensor the same spot DC is questionable because it's supposed to be based on visual clues from disturbing the surrounding environment. You might be better off with the DC 20 int check or spells to find it. By RAW there is no DC given for a moving object, only an inanimate one.

And I didn't even read how this thread got here. Wow, tangents.

Inanimate invisible objects are DC 40, DC 60 to pinpoint.

[Killer Angel]

You missed the mechanical definition of invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility):

Ah, you're right. I forgot that the DC40 applies also to inanimate objects, and not only to immobile creatures.

[ericgrau]

Inanimate invisible objects are DC 40, DC 60 to pinpoint.

Assuming it isn't moving or you count it as "inanimate" even if it is moving, but ok that's probably a reasonable DC. That's a bit hard at level 5-10. And then you have a hunch that there is an invisible thing somewhere. Don't know what it is.

EDIT: There's also up to a +15 to the DC for distance.

[Slipperychicken]

Inanimate invisible objects are DC 40, DC 60 to pinpoint.

Linky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot)