Who Are These Characters?

[Ridureyu]

I've been reading this comic since the beginning, and I am confused.

Who are "Xyklon," "Hayley," "Tarqin," "Lauren," "Shojou," and "Malik?"

[Keltest]

Opposite Alignment twins from the Collection of the Twig

[SaintRidley]

I always wonder where misspellings of names you're primarily encountering in print come from.

[Sharp-kun]

I've been reading this comic since the beginning, and I am confused.

Who are "Xyklon," "Hayley," "Tarqin," "Lauren," "Shojou," and "Malik?"
Never forget Xyklon the Consequential!

[Ridureyu]

I always wonder were misspellings of names you're primarily encountering in print come from.

I know! How hard is it to spell Zykon, Haily, or Tarken?

[Keltest]

I know! How hard is it to spell Zykon, Haily, or Tarken?

Tarquin is actually the correct spelling used in the comics.

[Anarion]

Tarquin is actually the correct spelling used in the comics.

You used a "U" the OP did not.

[Sir_Leorik]

I've been reading this comic since the beginning, and I am confused.

Who are "Xyklon," "Hayley," "Tarqin," "Lauren," "Shojou," and "Malik?"

Xyklon the Consequential is a fiend of some sort who dwells in a dungeon on the Material Plane. When Eugene Greenhilt went searching for Xykon to fulfill the Blood Oath of Vengeance, his ally, the Elf Rogue Keeno rolled a Gather Information check, and rather than locate Xykon, he located Xyklon's dungeon. When Eugene saw that they were facing an obese fiend rather than a sixty year old Human Sorcerer, he yelled at Keeno, then apologized for losing his cool.

Xyklon roared at them to come and face him, before sighing and ordering his guards to "fetch the "Ben & Jerry's!".

Hayley was one of the girls fanning Haley at the inn.

Lauren was one of the girls fanning Durkon at the inn.

Shoujou was the samurai Roy threw up on while Xykon was flying the Zombie Dragon through "evasive maneuvers".

Malik was one of the guards at the arena eaten by Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator.

Tarqin is the Kobold Slave driver on strike in front of the Empress of Blood's palace.

[Tiiba]

Farridah Malik is a flying carpet pilot from the prequel "Deus Ex: Goblin Revolution", which details the apotheosis of the Dark One.

[The Pilgrim]

Hayley was one of the girls fanning Haley at the inn.

Really? I thought she was that rouge from the Sisterhood of Aton.

[Nimrod's Son]

I kinda miss Kabuto and Tusiko.

[Sir_Leorik]

Really? I thought she was that rouge from the Sisterhood of Aton.

No, that's Aisha! Pay attention! :smalltongue:

[Vinsfeld]

I kinda miss Kabuto and Tusiko.

Am I allowed to make a Pokemon joke? No? Too obvious? Ok, then...

[Procyonpi]

I always wonder were misspellings of names you're primarily encountering in print come from.

Dyslexia and related stuff.

[Gift Jeraff]

Am I allowed to make a Pokemon joke? No? Too obvious? Ok, then...

Remember when everyone thought Ethan and Nate's dad was the Lord Tyranitar mentioned in the letter Hailey got from Myron?

[Anarion]

Remember when everyone thought Ethan and Nate's dad was the Lord Tyranitar mentioned in the letter Hailey got from Myron?

But then they sent out a Scizor that killed him with bullet punch?

[Gnome Alone]

I always wonder were misspellings of names you're primarily encountering in print come from.

See, that is actually a really good point. Normally I defang my inner grammar Nazi/demon/whatever by reminding myself that so-and-so may not be a native English speaker, but c'mon people, the names are only written out like a kajillion times. Yeesh.

Also, in the interest of the Decemberween spirit I am going to assume that "were" for "where" in a post complaining about spelling errors is some kind of ironic joke... or attack of the rampaging demon known as He Who Auto-Corrects.

[Copperdragon]

I always wonder were misspellings of names you're primarily encountering in print come from.

People read differently. Some read more differently than others. Some are younger, unattentive, or just "read badly". While I think it's easy to make fun of it I think it's likely that if there's a very large readerbase that some people are likely to show up who're enjoying the comic - just have big problems with reading.

This of course does not excuse some people from being lazy in their mind when they type them for the first two, three times here on the forum. I'm fairly certain I have misspelled O-Chul due to lazyness to look up if it is with a " ", "-" or a "Whatever" at some time.

But if you cannot know if the person on the other side is actually challanged with that or a lazy dog I'd not dwell on it further. Maybe highlight the correct spelling in your next post answering a question, but then be done with it.

[SaintRidley]

See, that is actually a really good point. Normally I defang my inner grammar Nazi/demon/whatever by reminding myself that so-and-so may not be a native English speaker, but c'mon people, the names are only written out like a kajillion times. Yeesh.

Also, in the interest of the Decemberween spirit I am going to assume that "were" for "where" in a post complaining about spelling errors is some kind of ironic joke... or attack of the rampaging demon known as He Who Auto-Corrects.

Stupid autocorrect. No joke intended. Just stupid software.

[Ridureyu]

i dont undetstand how anybody could mispel things

[Gnome Alone]

Stupid autocorrect. No joke intended. Just stupid software.

Oh, okay. Good thing I was only sort of a jerk about it, phew.


i dont undetstand how anybody could mispel things

(head asplode)

[Lettuce]

I can't speak for everyone, but some people--myself among them--have a lot of trouble remembering names, especially if they are very long and/or somewhat alien-sounding.

I read a lot, and quite a lot of what I read are fantasy novels, and so I'm used to encountering many unique names. I haven't gotten any better at actually remembering the names themselves, so I have a habit of learning the first two letters (or sometimes, the first syllable) and the last two letters (or sometimes, the last syllable) of a name. Generally this works pretty well for me, and I can keep everyone straight in my head.

There are obvious limitations and drawbacks to my method, of course. For example, this created some confusion at the big reveal in The Lord of the Rings, when Sarumon was suddenly discovered to be allied with Sauron--and I had spent a very good long while believing they were actually the same person, named Sa{!%#}on. Whoops. :smallredface: ("What do you mean Sa{!%#}on is working for Sa{!%#}on? A weird way of putting it, but surely that goes without saying...") It took a bit to sort that one out. :smallsigh: :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'm aware that this is an issue for me, so in the generally-rare cases I have to talk about the characters with others, I try to do my research beforehand (here in the playground, that would mean, for example--backreading in the comics to look up the full spelling of V's name--or cheating the system like I just did there by calling him V. That a lot of people have already shortened his name at least somewhat speaks to my point, I think).

But maybe others just don't realize that they're not that good with names yet. Bad with names does not necessarily mean a bad memory in general--I'm actually really quite good at remembering stories on the whole, or characteristics, or even near-specific dialogue and actions. It's just long names and long numbers that trip me up.

Or maybe they have a friend named Hailey and so when they think the word "Hayley" aloud in their head, they just type what they're already very, very used to seeing from another source. Or maybe they made a typo and just didn't notice it. Or maybe they are dyslexic. Or maybe in some cases, it's auto-corrected without their notice.

Or maybe they're lazy and they know we'll (probably) know who they are referring to. I think each person--and even each individual misspelling--is different.

{EDIT}
But we aren't all stupid... and I find it just a wee bit offensive that some of you seem to be insinuating that that's the (only?) reason. It's not. And I'm sure, given the popularity of this comic, that there are also many readers who are a standard deviation or two left of center on the intelligence graph, and I don't think it's okay to make fun of them here so that you can feel smug and superior. There's a difference between teasing and good-natured fun, and picking on people for a handicap and having a thread where we can all get together and laugh at those less fortunate than themselves seems a little crass. I'm a little surprised at this forum, which is normally so mature and friendly, indulging in this kind of behavior.

Making fun of our mistakes? Okay, sure. Making fun of US? Kind of getting uncomfortably close to harassment.

[Rodin]

Really? I thought she was that rouge from the Sisterhood of Aton.

...dear God.

I never got that joke until just now.

I think I need to lie down...

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm fairly certain I have misspelled O-Chul due to lazyness to look up if it is with a " ", "-" or a "Whatever" at some time.
I think it's actually O'Chul. He's the paladin from Emerald City, right?

[LuPuWei]

i dont undetstand how anybody could mispel things

yeah tings isnt o big werd even;

[HZ514]

{{scrubbed}}

[ChristianSt]

Having many different characters in the comic, it is quite understandable to not know the correct spelling of all of them - especially if the person who posts doesn't read it that regularly. Heck every time I talk about her I need to look up how Sangwaan is spelled, because I think there just needs to be a "h" somewhere in there :smallannoyed:.

What I find much more annoying are people who do nothing else beside pointing out that the OP misspelled some character. Normally I just ignore these kind of errors - and only comment on them if I'm going to post anyway, if even.

[Trillium]

You guys should read Silmarillion. After you are forced to see learn difference between Fingolfin and Finarfin or Mahedros, Maeglin and Maglor, and dozens of other similar names - such trivialities as Zyklon or something will be super-easy =)

[Francis Davey]

I can't speak for everyone, but some people--myself among them--have a lot of trouble remembering names, especially if they are very long and/or somewhat alien-sounding.

I read a lot, and quite a lot of what I read are fantasy novels, and so I'm used to encountering many unique names. I haven't gotten any better at actually remembering the names themselves, so I have a habit of learning the first two letters (or sometimes, the first syllable) and the last two letters (or sometimes, the last syllable) of a name. Generally this works pretty well for me, and I can keep everyone straight in my head.

I am fairly severely dyslexic and I have this problem pretty badly too - I think it is a side-effect of dyslexia. Certainly the Saruman/Sauron problem in the Lord of the Rings was acute and took me a while to sort out in my head. I find it very difficult when an author has several characters with similar initial names.

In the game Skyrim there are three places called: Windhelm, Whiterun and Winterhold - clearly the Nords of Skyrim rather like the letter W. For my part I found it very hard to disambiguate them.

The Order of the Stick scores very well on this point because: Roy, Elan, Durkon, Vaarsuvius and Haley are very different names in shape and form. I like that about it.

I think you make a very good point about these problems not being because people are less intelligent than those who get spellings right. For a dyslexic spelling can be hard. The letters in a word seem to jumble up. It is quite possible to look at word and be sure it is right/wrong but in fact it is the other way around. I couldn't even spell one of my own names until I was in my teens, but I don't think I am particularly stupid.

[DaggerPen]

I always wonder where misspellings of names you're primarily encountering in print come from.

Sometimes with the really long unfamiliar names it can happen, especially if you're not a native speaker and/or if you're dyslexic - neither applies to me, but I for the longest time thought Zz'dtri was Zz'driti, for example. My dad is dyslexic and at one point in time managed to misspell my nephew's name on his birthday card and had to redo it - it happens.

That said, my personal favorite name screw-up has to be people accidentally mixing up Elan and Nale. It's one of the more understandable mix-ups, but it alters sentence meanings so dramatically. It's best not to get overly pedantic about misspellings, though, unless they make a post truly unreadable.

[Sir_Leorik]

i dont undetstand how anybody could mispel things

Theer ar unlee too wayz two mizpil "things":

theengz

thinnggss

Oar arrgh their moar?

[Ghost Nappa]

I've always wondered how people misspell names they could only ever have learned by reading then in the strip.

...or at least I used to. That and a lot of other similar mysteries can be simply explained by the fact that people...fall all over the spectrum when it comes to intelligence. Some enjoy a lighter weight, as it were.

When I make intelligence and knowledge checks, I use a d20 that is specifically loaded to give a "1" 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time is a re-roll.

[Nimrod's Son]

"Shinjo" is always a good one, because sometimes even through context it's impossible to tell whether they mean Hinjo or Shojo.

[Anarion]

"Shinjo" is always a good one, because sometimes even through context it's impossible to tell whether they mean Hinjo or Shojo.

Let me get this straight. You're saying that people who write Shinjo weren't implying the use of a DBZ style fusion dance?

[The Pilgrim]

Belker and Durkun have also been recurrent characters since long ago.

V is the only party member that doesn't gets her name misspelled. Would be pretty Epic to actually manage to misspell a single consonant.

[sims796]

Belker and Durkun have also been recurrent characters since long ago.

V is the only party member that doesn't gets her name misspelled. Would be pretty Epic to actually manage to misspell a single consonant.

Sounds like a challenge to me!

[ORione]

V is the only party member that doesn't gets her name misspelled.

How do people misspell "Roy"?

[martianmister]

How do people misspell "Roy"?

Roi..........

[Rakoa]

Roi..........

So he is the King of Nowhere, after all!

[dtilque]

Stupid autocorrect. No joke intended. Just stupid software.

Sounds like your software is Gaudere's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudere%27s_Law)-compliant.

[Chronos]

And while we're at it, the party's cleric is Durkon, and the epic wizard who built the first dungeon was Dorukan. With those vowels, in that order.

At least some of these are understandable, though. When I read a word, I don't store the sequence of letter-shapes in my brain; I store the sound. So I know who that vampire lizardfolk is, and I know how his name is pronounced, but I can never remember if his name is spelled "Malak" or "Malack", since those would both be pronounced the same way.

[Michaeler]

I can't speak for everyone, but some people--myself among them--have a lot of trouble remembering names, especially if they are very long and/or somewhat alien-sounding.

Weirdly I have the opposite problem, I can remember unusual strings of sounds much better than I can remember names I am familiar with being applied to a vast number of people.

Off the top of my head I can remember Therkla's name first time I think of her. Roy's sister... Consonant, shortish vowel, consonant, longer vowel... Lucy? Julia? Going to look it up now. Yeah, got it second time.

[Katuko]

In the game Skyrim there are three places called: Windhelm, Whiterun and Winterhold - clearly the Nords of Skyrim rather like the letter W. For my part I found it very hard to disambiguate them.

I've had some trouble with this as well, maybe because Skyrim has so many places to go and so many people who are only important for half a quest that you never need to remember them.

Whiterun I know, because it's the main city and I went there all the time to drop off items. Windhelm and Winterhold, though, still force me to think: Which was the HQ of the rebels, and which had the mage college? Nowadays I remember it mostly because many of the wizards tell you about "the mages' college in Winterhold", and like "arrow in the knee" it's kind of hard to forget dialogue that goes on repeat all the time.

Windhelm, though... it's a snowy city like Winterhold, it's kind of boring like Winterhold, it has no really good shops apart from that one with the alchemy quest, and I usually side with the Empire anyways. So I only remember what Windhelm even is because Ulfric Stormcloak sits there, and he "blows wind" when he uses his special power. :P

I have no trouble with remembering most names I have seen in print, or on characters I care about. I remember the Order of the Stick characters, with Z as the only one I always have to look up. I do not remember the name of many of my own classmates, though, to the point where I awkwardly avoid using names until I can peek at Facebook or something.

I am terrible with face/name/birthday match-ups. I barely even remember the birth year of my own parents (though at least the dates sit with them). Sometimes I have to count relative to my age to remember my sister's exact age. :D In other fields, though, my memory is almost perfect. Ask me to cite a song, video or webcomic I like and I can probably do a full sketch with barely any errors.

You don't need to be dyslexic to fail at names etc. Repetition and care about the subject is important to remember at all. I like Vaarsuvius. I enjoy blaster mages and fancy names. I see V's name all the time, in a way. I don't like Kubota so much, and I've only seen his other name written a few times. Therefore, writing "Daimyo" is always guesswork, and looks "wrong" to me even after checking that it is the correct spelling!

I'm also with Michaeler - Unique names like "Therkla" are easier to remember than more common names; especially the ones with many different spellings. Heck, I always have to ask if my friend uses a hyphen in his name, because it is a name where some people write it with hyphen and some without. And I've only known him for 9 years now! :)

[Sir_Leorik]

How do people misspell "Roy"?

Ray. :smallwink:

[dtilque]

I don't like Kubota so much, and I've only seen his other name written a few times. Therefore, writing "Daimyo" is always guesswork, and looks "wrong" to me even after checking that it is the correct spelling!

Daimyo is not his name, it's a Japanese feudal title: Daimyo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimyo).

BTW, to those people who have trouble with names and just go by first syllables, let me warn you against reading Barrayaran history books...

[pearl jam]

My name is Michael, and despite the fact that it was there are any number of very famous individuals named Michael, and despite the fact that it was the most common name for baby boys in the United States for around 20 years in a row, many people spell it Micheal. I wonder, actually, if part of the problem is that somewhere in that 20-year span people actually started naming their sons Micheal, rather than Michael? In any case, it always bugs me! :P

Within OOTS, my personal favorites are Kabuto and Kobuta for Kubota, because both are actual words in Japanese. (Kabuto: helmet, Kobuta: piglet)

[Killer Angel]

Dyslexia and related stuff.

Yep, you can fail to remember correctly a name, and fail to type rogue-rouge, deity-diety. Judging from this forum, it's pretty common (especially when you're tired).
You should be worried when it happens to the same person on a regular basis.

[Michaeler]

My name is Michael, and despite the fact that it was there are any number of very famous individuals named Michael, and despite the fact that it was the most common name for baby boys in the United States for around 20 years in a row, many people spell it Micheal. I wonder, actually, if part of the problem is that somewhere in that 20-year span people actually started naming their sons Micheal, rather than Michael? In any case, it always bugs me! :P

I just tell them to spell it like Raphael. Nobody gets confused by that one.

[Sir_Leorik]

My name is Michael, and despite the fact that it was there are any number of very famous individuals named Michael, and despite the fact that it was the most common name for baby boys in the United States for around 20 years in a row, many people spell it Micheal. I wonder, actually, if part of the problem is that somewhere in that 20-year span people actually started naming their sons Micheal, rather than Michael? In any case, it always bugs me! :P

Just tell them that your name is Mi-Cha-El of the House of El. They'll remember how to spell it. :smalltongue:

[martianmister]

Even Rich Burlew is confused:


Tsukikko, Lirain, Dorkuan

[The Pilgrim]

At least some of these are understandable, though. When I read a word, I don't store the sequence of letter-shapes in my brain; I store the sound. So I know who that vampire lizardfolk is, and I know how his name is pronounced, but I can never remember if his name is spelled "Malak" or "Malack", since those would both be pronounced the same way.

Interesting. So the problem seems to reside in that particular trait of the english language, consinting of writing words in a certan way, and then making up the pronunciation, totally unrelated to how the word is written.

[Tannhaeuser]

Interesting. So the problem seems to reside in that particular trait of the English language, consisting of writing words in a certain way, and then making up the spelling, totally unrelated to how the word is written.

In many cases, as in French, those strange English spellings are fossils, preserving the former pronunciation of a word. A word like French "bois" really was once pronounced like English "boys": the Académie kept the spelling even though the pronunciation had changed. An English word like "knight" would really have been pronounced more like German "Knecht" and uncomfortably close to Monty Python's "kiniggit." Even the odd "-ough" endings were once pronounced more or less in the same way, so Dr. Seuss's famous "The Tough Coughs As He Ploughs The Dough" would have consisted of four near rhymes.

In some cases, the non-phonetic spellings preserve lost inflections of words, since English is now (mostly) a non-inflected language. The possessive of "lamm" would be "lambis"; modern orthographers, to show the root, spell the word "lamb." For much the same reason a name like "Cicero" in Latin becomes "Ciceron" (or the like) in the modern Romance languages.

Sometimes the scholars were downright wrong, as in the case of the Elizabethan spelling "abhominable" down there in my signature. They had guessed (incorrectly) that the Latin word "abominare, to hate" had come from "ab homine, away from human," so they stuck the "h" in just so everyone would remember it.

[Effluvium]

You guys should read Silmarillion. After you are forced to see learn difference between Fingolfin and Finarfin or Mahedros, Maeglin and Maglor, and dozens of other similar names - such trivialities as Zyklon or something will be super-easy =)

Hehe, I believe it's Maedhros :smalltongue:

Sorry, couldn't resist - I'm the guy who gets annoyed when people use the apostrophe incorrectly ( mostly because that one's not actually particularly hard to get right ), but generally I make allowances for typos which are usually the problem in comic.

Things like "could of" for "could have" are the ones that really send me into rage orbit :smallfurious: :smallyuk: :smallbiggrin:

[Michaeler]

Just tell them that your name is Mi-Cha-El of the House of El. They'll remember how to spell it. :smalltongue:

Not a bad one since El means God. See also Elohim, also why most angels have names ending -el.

[Sir_Leorik]

Not a bad one since El means God. See also Elohim, also why most angels have names ending -el.

I was trying to stick to the Kryptonian name designation system, to avoid running afoul of the board's rules, but yeah, that too. :smallwink:

[Steven]

{{scrubbed}}

[Ridureyu]

{{scrubbed}}

[Cavenskull]

I have trouble with spelling. I always have...
If you're going to make a claim like this, the least you could do is actually screw up some words in the process to prove the point. :smalltongue:

[pearl jam]

I was trying to stick to the Kryptonian name designation system, to avoid running afoul of the board's rules, but yeah, that too. :smallwink:

I would think that since the topic was addressed from a purely linguistic/etymological perspective that it would be permissible within the rules of the board. :smallsmile:

[Killer Angel]

{{scrubbed}}

Aren't we all on our best behaviour, during Christmas? :smalltongue:

[Ridureyu]

Well, Santa does have three lists:

"Naughty"

"Nice"

"STOP IT, RID!"

[Marlowe]

It occurs to me that some of the names of NPCs in my campaigns might seem a bit samey.:smalleek:

[Socksy]

I get how people can mis-spell Laurin as Lauren, and Haley as Hayley (is that how the name is spelt in America? It's usually Hailey over here), and I thik Shoujo is a genre of anime/manga, but some of the other typos are just ridiculous :P

[MrQ]

I have to admit that I am confused a bit here, too.

Now, usually, us non-anglophones are pretty strict about proper grammar and syntax and so on and so forth, especially if we have any academical background - not because masters degree in itself means much, but because by that point, in all probability, the vast majority of our linguistic proficiency has been measured -and reviewed- by series of tests, for about twenty years straight.

So, certain routines tend to become more or less inevitable. One of them would be proof-reading.

Of course, dyslexia can explain some of the misspelling but I'm sure we can all agree that it's probably not affecting everyone. And I suppose that most of us here are anglophones. Say, 60-70% at least?

Bear with me.

I'm Finnish. My native language is so much unlike anything most of you've ever heard that you wouldn't believe. There is, very literally, absolutely nothing in common with our languages except some loanwords from english.

And as such, I find it odd that a person who has been reading, writing and speaking and listening to english as a mother tongue is lacking the necessary skills to produce coherent and readable text.

Then again, it might be that teh same ppl how rite were instead of where ar the same who right Elan as Evan.... or wat hav u. (I know, it's atrocious. Please accept my sincere apologies.)

Anyhow, considering the highly academic level of usual debates over here, it strikes me as odd that there is such high amount of spelling errors.

And yes, especially since the source is text.

Besides dyslexia and other somewhat acceptable reasons, is there any other possible explanations for this phenomenon?

[Sir_Leorik]

Besides dyslexia and other somewhat acceptable reasons, is there any other possible explanations for this phenomenon?

Poor typing skills?

[martianmister]

Lazyness? Computer mix-match.

[ORione]

I get how people can mis-spell Laurin as Lauren, and Haley as Hayley (is that how the name is spelt in America? It's usually Hailey over here), and I thik Shoujo is a genre of anime/manga, but some of the other typos are just ridiculous :P

I think Haley is most common, but Hayley is a common variant.

[MrQ]

Poor typing skills?

Might be, but how do you actually manage that in practice? I mean, on this day and age, we more or less learn to type before walking.

And I don't want to sound either ignorant nor condescending. I just really, really can't get my head wrapped around that.

I mean, sure, in practice, transcribing english can be a chore, what with the 40-odd possible vowels (all and every dialect included from everywhere) and six letters to describe them. That I can get.

But... copying text. How does that even require typing skills?

[ChristianSt]

But... copying text. How does that even require typing skills?

It requires typing skills in "hit the right buttons in the right order OR noticing those errors before hitting submit". Sure, if you take your time to proofread the damn thing multiple times, it should be easy to fix all errors - but not all people probably feel that they need to proofread a random forum post. And it is not just copying, since I don't think most posters actually search for a text containing the names of their post, but just write how they remember the names to be written.

Also not all people around the internet need to be familiar with the Latin alphabet. I surely couldn't remember how to write any name I have seen in Japanese or Chinese characters. While people who posts here show understanding of English (and hence the underlaying alphabet), the mother language has probably still enough impact on how you remember stuff (especially names). For example I could easily see myself making the error of saying "Quarr" instead of "Qarr" because the first is more or less how I pronounce the name [It is possible that the intend pronunciation is different (probably "Karr"), but that is how I remember the name].

Also I wouldn't necessarily say the amount of spelling errors is that high (for an internet forum I think it is quite good), but it is probably just that we remember the errors better.

Another possibility which happens more and more these days are "auto-correct" errors - I don't think that is the most likeliest case here, but I think especially with names (and other made-up words) it can happen most.

[Marlowe]

If it makes anyone feel better, at least I haven't seen anything on the level of a certain professionally-produced 90s computer game based on the Punic Wars that spelt (or spelled) "Cathaginian" as "Cartesian" every single time.

[MrQ]

Poor typing skills?


...For example I could easily see myself making the error of saying "Quarr" instead of "Qarr" because the first is more or less how I pronounce the name [It is possible that the intend pronunciation is different (probably "Karr"), but that is how I remember the name].

See, that's exactly from where my confusion comes from. We don't even HAVE that letter, at all (neither B,C,D,F,G,X,Z or W for that matter) and I still wouldn't be able to make that mistake. I do however, mess up german diphthongs all over the place and my russian is borderline atrocious so maybe there's something there to look further, but I digress - we're, in the end, discussing about english here.


Also I wouldn't necessarily say the amount of spelling errors is that high (for an internet forum I think it is quite good), but it is probably just that we remember the errors better.

No, it's not that high at all. That's all the more reason why's the said errors are especially striking. But I'm reiterating. Sorry about that.

[ChristianSt]

See, that's exactly from where my confusion comes from. We don't even HAVE that letter, at all (neither B,C,D,F,G,X,Z or W for that matter) and I still wouldn't be able to make that mistake. I do however, mess up german diphthongs all over the place and my russian is borderline atrocious so maybe there's something there to look further, but I digress - we're, in the end, discussing about english here.



No, it's not that high at all. That's all the more reason why's the said errors are especially striking. But I'm reiterating. Sorry about that.

Another possibility which happens more and more these days are "auto-correct" errors - I don't think that is the most likeliest case here, but I think especially with names (and other made-up words) it can happen most.[/quote]

I could as easily say how I don't see how it is possibly to screw up Quote-tags etc... yet I do see it often enough :smalltongue: [I know you fixed it pretty soon - but come on, is it so hard to hit the preview button? :smallamused: - and I just couldn't resist to tease you a bit for it :smallwink:]


But only because you have no problems with English, doesn't mean that other people with other backgrounds can't have more problems with it. You even admit you have problems with certain things (though not related with English) - why couldn't it be that there are peoples who don't have troubles with German diphthongs but trouble with something else? I'm speaking German myself, so I don't have any trouble with them, but I have some problems with the way the English languages uses capitalization (pretty much none most of them time), which leads me to pretty much use lower case only while writing English [I know there are some exception, such as pretty much any country/language name, even if not used as none, or "I". But for example you do it wrong in your post, it should be "German", "English" and "Russian"] - but sometimes I'm not really sure and I'm not in the mood to do some research and just pick one.

And as I said - it doesn't come down to copying, but to remember, as I said earlier in that thread EVERY time I need to write that name, I need to lookup Sangwaan - because I absolutely cannot remember it [and it is possibly the 6th+ time I write AND lookup it again, because I just can't remember. And if I wouldn't want to look it up again, I would just use a wrong version.]. And yes if I need to write that name again in two pages, I will look it up a third time most likely.

And for the example with Qarr: I think it would be actually helpful for me if I would have a mother language not featuring "Q". Because in German (as in English) nearly every time you use a "Q" it is followed by an "U". The English Wikipedia even features a list of English words with Q not followed by U (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_containing_Q_not_followed_by _U). So for an English (or German) speaking person the letter "Q" without "U" is so rare, that it is pretty easy to think of "Q" and "Qu" interchangeable.

[DeliaP]

If it makes anyone feel better, at least I haven't seen anything on the level of a certain professionally-produced 90s computer game based on the Punic Wars that spelt (or spelled) "Cathaginian" as "Cartesian" every single time.
OK, sorry, but I just have to point out:

It's "Carthaginian"

[MrQ]

I could as easily say how I don't see how it is possibly to screw up Quote-tags etc... yet I do see it often enough :smalltongue: [I know you fixed it pretty soon - but come on, is it so hard to hit the preview button? :smallamused: - and I just couldn't resist to tease you a bit for it :smallwink:]

You actually got me there! Then again, it's mostly because this is the second of the two forums I've ever used, and as you probably can see from my post count, I don't visit here that often. I think my average is about a post per year.

So, my excuse is, I'm still in a very long process of learning how to use this format of posting :D

Boils down to same thing to some extent, I'm willing to admit.



But only because you have no problems with English, doesn't mean that other people with other backgrounds can't have more problems with it. You even admit you have problems with certain things (though not related with English) - why couldn't it be that there are peoples who don't have troubles with German diphthongs but trouble with something else? I'm speaking German myself, so I don't have any trouble with them, but I have some problems with the way the English languages uses capitalization (pretty much none most of them time), which leads me to pretty much use lower case only while writing English [I know there are some exception, such as pretty much any country/language name, even if not used as none, or "I". But for example you do it wrong in your post, it should be "German", "English" and "Russian"] - but sometimes I'm not really sure and I'm not in the mood to do some research and just pick one.

Valid points here. I am referring to anglophones here, mostly. And my german sucks mostly because I almost never get to use that. Takes me ages to write a letter in German (So yeah I saw what you were doing just there ;-)).

If you really want to bog your mind with engl... English grammar, look into comma positioning before and after parentheses.


And as I said - it doesn't come down to copying, but to remember, as I said earlier in that thread EVERY time I need to write that name, I need to lookup Sangwaan - because I absolutely cannot remember it [and it is possibly the 6th+ time I write AND lookup it again, because I just can't remember. And if I wouldn't want to look it up again, I would just use a wrong version.]. And yes if I need to write that name again in two pages, I will look it up a third time most likely.

And for the example with Qarr: I think it would be actually helpful for me if I would have a mother language not featuring "Q". Because in German (as in English) nearly every time you use a "Q" it is followed by an "U". The English Wikipedia even features a list of English words with Q not followed by U (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_containing_Q_not_followed_by _U). So for an English (or German) speaking person the letter "Q" without "U" is so rare, that it is pretty easy to think of "Q" and "Qu" interchangeable.

Yeah. Q is a nasty piece of work. In some languages it actually serves a bit more sensible purpose, going closer to /kh/ or straight /kw/ without the U mixing things up. Then again, it's a matter of phonetics, in the end. In Finnish, Q, if we'd ever use it, would be pronounced /kw/ without any exceptions.

Now, for me, the names in OOTS are pretty simple. They sound asian, I register them as asian. Japanese and Korean are almost as phonetic languages as Finnish, so Sangwaan is Sangwaan and Hinjo is Hinjo. Technically, though, as Japanese doesn't have the letter J in their inventory (though it appears in romanization. Never quite got that.), so I'm assuming it's meant to represent Hinyo instead of Hin-cho, Hin-zo or any such English renditions.

Interesting fun fact, if above is correct, then Shojo should be pronounced Shoyo... which should, unless I'm completely mistaken, mean "Soy sauce".


As for the others, not completely Aerith and Bob-department names, I follow the same logic - I have some grasp of how most indo-european (among few other language groups) languages work so I merely change the phonetic register to corresponding one in real world.

Aeriths and Bobs, I go full English on them. I'm assuming that in most anglophone literature it's meant to read like that.

And as a disclaimer, there are quite some OOTS-relevant thoughts here, so most definitely am I not, by my own admission at least, disregarding the forum rules. :D

[Sir_Leorik]

But... copying text. How does that even require typing skills?


It requires typing skills in "hit the right buttons in the right order OR noticing those errors before hitting submit". Sure, if you take your time to proofread the damn thing multiple times, it should be easy to fix all errors - but not all people probably feel that they need to proofread a random forum post. And it is not just copying, since I don't think most posters actually search for a text containing the names of their post, but just write how they remember the names to be written.

Seconded. Some people type too fast to notice their mistakes, and hit Submit Reply before proofreading. And some people, like myself, lack the manual dexterity or spacial coordination (or some combination of the two) to learn touch-typing using a QWERTY keyboard. (I tried at least half a dozen times in both Elementary school and High School to learn touch typing. Mavis Beacon is useless! Useless!) So I use two to three fingers and carefully proofread what I'm typing. It's not fast, but "slow and steady wins the race" or at least produces comprehensible posts.


Also not all people around the internet need to be familiar with the Latin alphabet. I surely couldn't remember how to write any name I have seen in Japanese or Chinese characters. While people who posts here show understanding of English (and hence the underlaying alphabet), the mother language has probably still enough impact on how you remember stuff (especially names). For example I could easily see myself making the error of saying "Quarr" instead of "Qarr" because the first is more or less how I pronounce the name [It is possible that the intend pronunciation is different (probably "Karr"), but that is how I remember the name].

Actually, in Infernal "Qarr" is pronounced "Jackass". :smallyuk:

[Marlowe]

OK, sorry, but I just have to point out:

It's "Carthaginian"

It's some kind of law that half the posts ever written about spelling errors will include one. I am proud to sustain that grand tradition.:smallsmile:

[MrQ]

Seconded. Some people type too fast to notice their mistakes, and hit Submit Reply before proofreading. And some people, like myself, lack the manual dexterity or spacial coordination (or some combination of the two) to learn touch-typing using a QWERTY keyboard. (I tried at least half a dozen times in both Elementary school and High School to learn touch typing. Mavis Beacon is useless! Useless!) So I use two to three fingers and carefully proofread what I'm typing. It's not fast, but "slow and steady wins the race" or at least produces comprehensible posts.


I get that - but I'm sure we can all agree that a tyop is a typo.... whereas basically hitting buttons in, by some stretch coherent order is quite another thing. Durkn, I get. Durkom, why not. But Dorkon? Belkor? Vasuvius? Your? Wat?

That's, I believe, a slightly diffrent matter. :smallwink:

[Sir_Leorik]

I get that - but I'm sure we can all agree that a tyop is a typo.... whereas basically hitting buttons in, by some stretch coherent order is quite another thing. Durkn, I get. Durkom, why not. But Dorkon? Belkor? Vasuvius? Your? Wat?

That's, I believe, a slightly diffrent matter. :smallwink:

Well, with regards to "Dorkon", the "u" and "o" on a QWERTY keyboard are close together. :smallwink:

"Your" and "You're" are often confused, since it's more of a grammatical mistake than a spelling error. The same for "they're", "there" and "their".

But yeah, the rest are pretty egregious. :smallannoyed:

[ChristianSt]

Now, for me, the names in OOTS are pretty simple. They sound asian, I register them as asian. Japanese and Korean are almost as phonetic languages as Finnish, so Sangwaan is Sangwaan and Hinjo is Hinjo. Technically, though, as Japanese doesn't have the letter J in their inventory (though it appears in romanization. Never quite got that.), so I'm assuming it's meant to represent Hinyo instead of Hin-cho, Hin-zo or any such English renditions.

That is great if it is easy for you :smallsmile:. But for others it maybe isn't that easy. I don't know why, but I imagine Sangwaan to have a random amount of (silent) h's. The most likely form I would type is Sahngwhaan. But since I'm not sure where exactly to put them (and I like to do correct posts) I look it up to see that there aren't any h's in that name. (Naturally on top of that I can't remember that fact, starting the whole process again the next time)

And yeah, some punctuation the English language has is imo just weird (for example I thought that even some "-related stuff is just wrong in the strips, but it is how it is in fact used in American English). Adding to the whole English spelling/typing is this whole British/American stuff. I'm only waiting that someone says that I manage to mix both forms blatantly wrong.

[MrQ]

Well, with regards to "Dorkon", the "u" and "o" on a QWERTY keyboard are close together. :smallwink:

"Your" and "You're" are often confused, since it's more of a grammatical mistake than a spelling error. The same for "they're", "there" and "their".

But yeah, the rest are pretty egregious. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, they're close. Not as close as I, tho. And I trust no one's ever seen no Dirkons running amok, correct? :smallwink:

[Sir_Leorik]

Yeah, they're close. Not as close as I, tho. And I trust no one's ever seen no Dirkons running amok, correct? :smallwink:

Give them time; sooner or later every variant of every character's name seems to get used around here. :smallwink:

And considering the trouble Keeno the Rogue had finding Xykon (despite his high ranks in Gather Information), getting these names wrong sometimes has consequences.

The whole bit with Xykon vs. Xyklon reminds me of a skit from "Sesame Street" I remember seeing as a kid. Kermit the Frog has ordered a T-shirt with his name on it, but the vendor only has "Kermit the Gorf", "Kermit the Forg", and "Kermit the Grof". Then a Gorf, a Forg and Grof, each named Kermit, show up to pick up the T-shirts they ordered, while the vendor tells our hero that his shirt won't be ready till next week at the earliest. :smallbiggrin:

[MrQ]

That is great if it is easy for you :smallsmile:. But for others it maybe isn't that easy. I don't know why, but I imagine Sangwaan to have a random amount of (silent) h's. The most likely form I would type is Sahngwhaan. But since I'm not sure where exactly to put them (and I like to do correct posts) I look it up to see that there aren't any h's in that name. (Naturally on top of that I can't remember that fact, starting the whole process again the next time)

And yeah, some punctuation the English language has is imo just weird (for example I thought that even some "-related stuff is just wrong in the strips, but it is how it is in fact used in American English). Adding to the whole English spelling/typing is this whole British/American stuff. I'm only waiting that someone says that I manage to mix both forms blatantly wrong.

Well, imagine me. I mean, our language does have a veritable megaton of rules, true. And you can create word-monsters that have the meaning of several sentences. In one word. But there are literelly NO exceptions to any rule, ever, under any circumstances and it's completely phonetic.

English, however? Not so much :smallsmile: I mean, even french follows some trace of logic here. :smallsmile: Then again, grew up with that, so I consider myself as bilingual.

And boy howdy does it show that I haven't spent any reasonable amount of time in any given anglophonic location. Result is, my accent is somewhere between RP, central atlantic, and NE coast, with bits and pieces from everywhere, some sydney here, a bit of a cockney there with a healthy dose of arkansan and southern texan in the mix.... and that applies to my vocabulary, too.

Thank god I have a thing for languages and literature. I'd probably make an ass out of myself while ordering pizza without those interests. :D And it makes the complexity much more interesting and stimulating.

[Sir_Leorik]

Well, imagine me. I mean, our language does have a veritable megaton of rules, true. And you can create word-monsters that have the meaning of several sentences. In one word. But there are literelly NO exceptions to any rule, ever, under any circumstances and it's completely phonetic.

English, however? Not so much :smallsmile: I mean, even french follows some trace of logic here. :smallsmile: Then again, grew up with that, so I consider myself as bilingual.

Are you Swiss? Or just close enough to the border to get French TV?


And boy howdy does it show that I haven't spent any reasonable amount of time in any given anglophonic location. Result is, my accent is somewhere between RP, central atlantic, and NE coast, with bits and pieces from everywhere, some sydney here, a bit of a cockney there with a healthy dose of arkansan and southern texan in the mix.... and that applies to my vocabulary, too.

Bill Clinton has much to answer for! :smalltongue:


Thank god I have a thing for languages and literature. I'd probably make an ass out of myself while ordering pizza without those interests. :D And it makes the complexity much more interesting and stimulating.

You're doing better than me. I know a smattering of Yiddish words, but I know enough to know that Yiddish is wildly different from German, even when it's using German words.

[MrQ]

Are you Swiss? Or just close enough to the border to get French TV?

Nope, did live in Geneva for a while though. I'm Finnish, if that rings any bells.


Bill Clinton has much to answer for! :smalltongue:

It was Brad Pitt. Though I could've mistaken that for Nebraskan. Our media didn't find mr. Clinton that interesting of a subject. Europe was in depression, Cold war was just won... over, I meant over, and back then, Finland was culturally worse than Utah but with more hicks and on the same latitude as Alaska. Foreign matters mattered none, unless they had something to do with eastern block getting all riled up about one thing or another. Ol' boy Bill, however, got into spotlight with two things that had absolutely nothing to do with his career - "Ah nevah inhaled" AND the whole Lewinsky ordeal. Then, and only then had an American president any impact on our life besides cold war related insanity.

(Reagan was on our media only when it started to look like a nuke-a-thon was a-coming. That is, every day, more or less, But strangely, Can't remember that idiot before Yeltsin or Gorbachev that good. A selective bias, I guess, since I was just a kid back then, and Ronnie was all about the star wars initiative... which I kinda mistook for something unrelated. )


You're doing better than me. I know a smattering of Yiddish words, but I know enough to know that Yiddish is wildly different from German, even when it's using German words.

Can't agree with you there completely. With some difficulty, I can read Yiddish. I must emphasise that the translation takes time, I have to mess around with etymologies and figure out hebrew loans out of the equation, and by no means am I able to speak it. At all. Not even sure if I'd ever actually got to actually hear it spoken.

Though, admitted, wildly different is pretty relative concept in this context. More different than Jamaican patois from Central Atlantic? Yup. More different than Japanese and Russian? Not by a long shot. :smallcool:

[Sir_Leorik]

Nope, did live in Geneva for a while though. I'm Finnish, if that rings any bells.

Ah, gotcha. :smallwink:


It was Brad Pitt. Though I could've mistaken that for Nebraskan.

I think his accent is a generic Midwestern/Californian hybrid.

So, who wants to get this thread back on track?

[MrQ]

Ah, gotcha. :smallwink:



I think his accent is a generic Midwestern/Californian hybrid.

So, who wants to get this thread back on track?

I am, of course, referring to lt. Aldo Raine, here. :smallcool:

Could someone explain the Xykon/Zykon - thing?

[ORione]

I am, of course, referring to lt. Aldo Raine, here. :smallcool:

Could someone explain the Xykon/Zykon - thing?

Why some people spell "Xykon" with a Z? Probably because "Xykon" is pronounced with a Z sound. Some people remember the sound, but not the letters, apparently.

[ChristianSt]

I am, of course, referring to lt. Aldo Raine, here. :smallcool:

Could someone explain the Xykon/Zykon - thing?

Or it is possible a nod to SoD (same would go for Xyklon (as mentioned earlier in th thread).)

There are several scenes going into this:

pre-Lich Xykon gets visited by a guest and one of the things he got out of the visit that a badass name has to start with "X" (and is going to call himself Xykon)
Redcloak's brother first calls him Zykon when they meet (and Xykon answers that Z's are for *******) [Xykon did introduce himself as Xykon beforehand]
Lirian addresses him as Zykon and Xykon complaining about that.
When they met again Lirian calls him Xykon and he is amazed that she got the X right this time.

[veti]

When I started reading the comic, I thought Roy's name was Ray. It wasn't until I got the first book that I was completely convinced.

As for Xykon/Zykon etc. - people's memories work differently. Some people (I am one) have very auditory-based memories. When I read something, I hear it aloud in my head, and when I remember it, I basically read it "aloud" back to myself.

To compensate, I've made a lifelong habit of pronouncing letters differently. You really can hear the difference between "Xykon" and "Zykon" when I say them.

[dtilque]

The Xykon/Zykon thing in SoD is a joke. You shouldn't be able to hear any difference because they'd be pronounced the same. Yet Xykon can tell. How? Well, it's a joke that he can.

The same joke was made with the two pronunciations/meanings of windy in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html).

[happyman]

People have covered an awful lot of ground in these posts, but as a native American English speaker (from Utah, MrQ...the Internet is everywhere) I had a few thoughts.

We've covered how abominable English spelling is, and rightfully so. Spelling was introduced during a vowel shift, we kept the "original" spelling of several loanwords from other languages, and English has historically consisted of plenty of different dialects with no single authority ever really able to take control of how the language is spoken. All of this contributes to the difficulties of English spelling.

I'd add, though, that spelling names in English is particularly inconsistent, even by English's low standards. Unlike words, names get reinvented, sometimes on purpose, sometimes accidentally, a hundred-thousands of times per year. In America at least, the parents pick the spellings at the time of birth, and it isn't unusual for the person to pick their favorite form of the name as a nick-name as they grow up.

There are no standards and as noted, English phonetics is already obscenely inconsistent. This results in every single name in the language, even the traditional ones, having lots and lots of variants, many of which are pronounced the same way. All you really have to do, nowadays, is find a spelling most people can read. In fact, some people have been deliberately ignoring the rules on many traditional names in an effort to make them unique or stand out. Add the fact that several of the names, especially last names, are essentially anglicized loan-words (fun fact: most Americans are descended from Germans) and all rules are out the window.

The bottom line is that, in America, the spelling of just about all names are notoriously flexible. I suspect that leads some of the native speakers to take a somewhat more flexible approach to remembering names, focusing much more on the pronunciation than the spelling because it is much more reliable in day-to-day life. That almost certainly leads to some of the confusion we get here.

[MrQ]

People have covered an awful lot of ground in these posts, but as a native American English speaker (from Utah, MrQ...the Internet is everywhere) I had a few thoughts....

We've covered how abominable English spelling is, and rightfully so. Spelling was introduced during a vowel shift, we kept the "original" spelling of several loanwords from other languages, and English has historically consisted of plenty of different dialects with no single authority ever really able to take control of how the language is spoken. All of this contributes to the difficulties of English spelling.

I'd add, though, that spelling names in English is particularly inconsistent, even by English's low standards. Unlike words, names get reinvented, sometimes on purpose, sometimes accidentally, a hundred-thousands of times per year. In America at least, the parents pick the spellings at the time of birth, and it isn't unusual for the person to pick their favorite form of the name as a nick-name as they grow up.

There are no standards and as noted, English phonetics is already obscenely inconsistent. This results in every single name in the language, even the traditional ones, having lots and lots of variants, many of which are pronounced the same way. All you really have to do, nowadays, is find a spelling most people can read. In fact, some people have been deliberately ignoring the rules on many traditional names in an effort to make them unique or stand out. Add the fact that several of the names, especially last names, are essentially anglicized loan-words (fun fact: most Americans are descended from Germans) and all rules are out the window.

The bottom line is that, in America, the spelling of just about all names are notoriously flexible. I suspect that leads some of the native speakers to take a somewhat more flexible approach to remembering names, focusing much more on the pronunciation than the spelling because it is much more reliable in day-to-day life. That almost certainly leads to some of the confusion we get here.

There's actually few interesting ideas. I would be very interested in further discussion, for god is in the details. Wouldn't there be any conflict when seen the written form? Or should we assume there's an automatic override, subconscious maybe? Kinda like "I'ts Xylon, cause I just watched Galactica"- sorta thing.

As for Utah and the quip thereof, I'm sorry, in a sense, if I in any way offended you. Place known from religious weirdoes with strong agrarian background just so happens to be very fitting description of pre-2000's Finland. Though, technically, I guess that UP or Minnesota would be a bit closer.

It was more important for me to add shame to what was around here back in the day than to bash any state whatsoever... so maybe I should've just gone with Jersey, so everyone would've been cool about it... :smallsmile:

[veti]

The Xykon/Zykon thing in SoD is a joke. You shouldn't be able to hear any difference because they'd be pronounced the same.

Only if you lazily pronounce your X the same as a Z. When I pronounce it to myself, I take care to pronounce the X as an X (i.e. "ks"). That way, I remember the spelling.

Maybe Xykon feels the same way. And he has that +8 to Listen checks...

[Ridureyu]

See, I know why I misspell things.

It is because I am actually a dog. Arf arf.

[Sir_Leorik]

See, I know why I misspell things.

It is because I am actually a dog. Arf arf.

For a dog you make a great photographer. :smallwink:

[Rodin]

Only if you lazily pronounce your X the same as a Z. When I pronounce it to myself, I take care to pronounce the X as an X (i.e. "ks"). That way, I remember the spelling.

Maybe Xykon feels the same way. And he has that +8 to Listen checks...

Except that saying X as a Z is the correct way to say it.

Example:

Xylophone (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/xylophone?s=t)

Words starting with X typically have a Z sound. Xylophone, Xenon, Xerox.

Xerox is a perfect example, actually. The latter X is pronounced just how it sounds, so the word is properly pronounced Zeer-oks.

No reason to believe Xykon wouldn't follow, hence the joke.

[Ridureyu]

For a dog you make a great photographer. :smallwink:

Photography?

Well, for my photos you can look HERE: http://www.flickr.com/photos/74529773@N07/

But back on topic... yeah. My Miron/Myron mistake was because I was mentally mispronouncing his name.

[Rogar Demonblud]

But strangely, Can't remember that idiot before Yeltsin or Gorbachev that good.

Yuri Andropov?

[Marlowe]

Konstantin Chernenko.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ah. See, he said 'idiot' and my brain went right to Andropov. I clean forgot there was someone else between him and Gorbachev.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Usually, when I make a spelling mistake, it's either because I was to lazy to correct myself, or my Kindle's auto-correct makes me misspell it (usually happens with proper nouns).

[DeliaP]

Myself, I don't get it. I have a spell checker, I carefully preview my posts before I submit, I reread them after I submit to make sure that there are no errors, and whenever in doubt I consult an online dictionary and rules of English grammar to ensure that I don'a'''adadalkm

aaaadddfear da!!££$ d??? So tht da. See/? do ita nata a thian atht pdnedneed to em reyav otoefoten. jast don't ge t t h e prleobm/ L\ziness, dammit.

[ChristianSt]

Myself, I don't get it. I have a spell checker, I carefully preview my posts before I submit, I reread them after I submit to make sure that there are no errors, and whenever in doubt I consult an online dictionary and rules of English grammar to ensure that I don'a'''adadalkm

aaaadddfear da!!££$ d??? So tht da. See/? do ita nata a thian atht pdnedneed to em reyav otoefoten. jast don't ge t t h e prleobm/ L\ziness, dammit.

Sarcastic illustration aside - I pretty much do the same (check spelling, previewing, rereading, previewing, rereading, rinse & repeat some more times). But more often than I would like still errors crop up - and I'm not talking about British/American English mix-up, but simply errors. Sometimes I catch them after submitting my post (and can edit it before many others should have caught it), but making errors is just human. I think even if I would take additional 2-3 hours to proofread a post, I would still manage to add errors from time to time (probably less frequent than now, but still).

[MrQ]

Ah. See, he said 'idiot' and my brain went right to Andropov. I clean forgot there was someone else between him and Gorbachev.

They all were more or less high-functioning braindeads after Lenin and even that's debatable.

Do keep in mind, though, that mine is a country that was very literally always just a millimeter away from being annexed, forcefully, to USSR. That, or blown to high heavens for collaborating in the west - I mean christ, we had a single president for about fourty years and he was approved by Moscow.

The one time it seemed he didn't get "elected", we got a notice from them. Basically they said that "yes, yes he did get elected and you should count again, correctly this time, unless you'd prefer further introduction to soviet artillery".

So from our perspective, they all were dangerous idiots.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Considering what you did to them in the Winter War, can you blame them for being afraid of you slipping the leash?

[Sir_Leorik]

They all were more or less high-functioning braindeads after Lenin and even that's debatable.

Do keep in mind, though, that mine is a country that was very literally always just a millimeter away from being annexed, forcefully, to USSR. That, or blown to high heavens for collaborating in the west - I mean christ, we had a single president for about fourty years and he was approved by Moscow.

The one time it seemed he didn't get "elected", we got a notice from them. Basically they said that "yes, yes he did get elected and you should count again, correctly this time, unless you'd prefer further introduction to soviet artillery".

So from our perspective, they all were dangerous idiots.

They were probably still upset about losing The Winter War.

To bring this thread kicking and screaming back on topic...

Someone mispelled Miron's name as Moron this weekend. Seriously guys, I think the "OotS"/"PS238" cross-over fanfics belong in a different sub-forum. :smallwink:

Ninja'ed by just seconds! :smallbiggrin:

[The Pilgrim]

Interesting how this thread has shifted from english phonetics to finno-russian rivalry.

BTW, last time I checked, the Soviet Union won the Winter War. Both of them.

I mean, Vyborg, Karelia and Petsamo are russian, aren't they?

[MrQ]

Interesting how this thread has shifted from english phonetics to finno-russian rivalry.

BTW, last time I checked, the Soviet Union won the Winter War. Both of them.

I mean, Vyborg, Karelia and Petsamo are russian, aren't they?

Yeah, that was a definite soviet victory. I guess that the whole hype about the winter war thing was more because of the rather ludicrous casualty rates with the soviets... and let's be honest here, I'm not sure if anyone has ever fought so dirty, ever, as our ancestors did.

I mean, I'm supposed to be pretty partial about "Finnish defensive victory" and so on and so forth, but looking closer, the tactics used were nothing short of atrocious. They were designed to cause maximum amount of damage, physical and mental, with as much embarrassment and fear as possible included - wiping out supply lines and HQ first and then harassing the leftover troops in minus forty degrees for weeks at most was pretty usual. And by harassment, I mean nightly raids with superior mobility. You know, the grenade in a tent full of starving, freezing people trying to sleep- kinda fun. That was normal.

Makes Bastogne look like picnic in comparison.

Our grandpappys were veritable monsters. Not so sure if I'd like anyone to remember us because of what happened then.

However, what is PS238? And correct if I'm wrong, but aren't you supposed to say words that start with Z differently than those which start with X?

[Sir_Leorik]

Yeah, that was a definite soviet victory. I guess that the whole hype about the winter war thing was more because of the rather ludicrous casualty rates with the soviets... and let's be honest here, I'm not sure if anyone has ever fought so dirty, ever, as our ancestors did.

I mean, I'm supposed to be pretty partial about "Finnish defensive victory" and so on and so forth, but looking closer, the tactics used were nothing short of atrocious. They were designed to cause maximum amount of damage, physical and mental, with as much embarrassment and fear as possible included - wiping out supply lines and HQ first and then harassing the leftover troops in minus forty degrees for weeks at most was pretty usual. And by harassment, I mean nightly raids with superior mobility. You know, the grenade in a tent full of starving, freezing people trying to sleep- kinda fun. That was normal.

Makes Bastogne look like picnic in comparison.

Our grandpappys were veritable monsters. Not so sure if I'd like anyone to remember us because of what happened then.

You're being too hard on Finland for the first Winter War. After all, the Soviets were the invaders, and they made the mistake of not taking terrain into account. Besides, the Soviets did far worse to their own civillians than the Finns did to their military during the Winter War.


However, what is PS238?

Only the first public school in North America for Metaprodigies! (http://ps238.nodwick.com/?p=26)


And correct if I'm wrong, but aren't you supposed to say words that start with Z differently than those which start with X?

Depends. "Xylophone" sounds like it begins with a "Z" sounds, while the name "Xavier" sometimes sounds like it beginas with a "Z" and sometimes like an "Ecks".

[MrQ]

You're being too hard on Finland for the first Winter War. After all, the Soviets were the invaders, and they made the mistake of not taking terrain into account. Besides, the Soviets did far worse to their own civillians than the Finns did to their military during the Winter War.

Technically that's debatable. Of course, peacetime calls for different tactics, one of them being NOT throwing your own population to the gulags.

Which is, however, far less than what our grand-grand parents pulled off with the communists. Technically, it was a strange bout of tuberculosis, but in reality it was something that inspired those guys all about the final solution.

I'm not being harsh on anything here. It's incredible how much cr*p you can pull off from the position of a victim. Fact remains, regardless of any circumstances, we were politically and militarily allied with aforementioned regime and with the sole exception of the question/solution thing, were pretty much drinking the same kool-aid. And we got the same memo. And so on and so forth.



Only the first public school in North America for Metaprodigies! (http://ps238.nodwick.com/?p=26)

Oh yeah, that! I've heard about it. Any good?


Depends. "Xylophone" sounds like it begins with a "Z" sounds, while the name "Xavier" sometimes sounds like it begins with a "Z" and sometimes like an "Ecks".

Gotcha. But you're not using it as /ts/ or /dʒ/ word-initial?

Oh, and I had to correct you. "Beginas" sounds awful lot like "va...termelons" and I'm going to leave it at that. :smallwink:

A question: Has anyone seen anyone mangle O-chul into any shape or form?

[Sir_Leorik]

Technically that's debatable. Of course, peacetime calls for different tactics, one of them being NOT throwing your own population to the gulags.

Which is, however, far less than what our grand-grand parents pulled off with the communists. Technically, it was a strange bout of tuberculosis, but in reality it was something that inspired those guys all about the final solution.

I'm not being harsh on anything here. It's incredible how much cr*p you can pull off from the position of a victim. Fact remains, regardless of any circumstances, we were politically and militarily allied with aforementioned regime and with the sole exception of the question/solution thing, were pretty much drinking the same kool-aid. And we got the same memo. And so on and so forth.

Good point. We should probably veer the conversation away from Twentieth Century dictatorships before the thread gets locked.


Oh yeah, that! I've heard about <PS238>. Any good?

It's excellent. It really captures the sort of emotions and experiences that nine and ten year olds would go through if they had superpowers (or had parents expecting them to develop superpowers and enter the family business). The students include the son of a Superman expy who prefers playing the clarinet to fighting crime; the son of a Hulk expy who is always stuck in his blue, muscular form and only speaks in Hulk-speak; the son of an Angel and a Demon, who's contested over by the Lords of Order and the Lords of Chaos; a girl who's the 84th person born with a very common power-set (Flight, Invulnerability, Super-Strength and Super-Speed) and feels self-conscious that her powers aren't as "special" as her school mates'; a girl who's invulnerable thanks to a mysterious "guardian angel"; a would-be supervillain, who gets into battles with another would-be supervillain; a boy and girl sponsored by the Republican and Democratic parties, respectively, as potential replacements for an apolitical patriotic hero; and a boy whose parents are the most powerful heroes in the world, but has no superpowers of his own, and is terrified that he'll end up getting killed if he spends more time at school. Also, Mike Stackpole's vigilante hero, The Revenant, makes cameo appearances! I highly recommend it!


Gotcha. But you're not using it as /ts/ or /dʒ/ word-initial?

No. The former sound is made by either a "z" or by "ts", and I don't think English has the latter sound.


A question: Has anyone seen anyone mangle O-chul into any shape or form?

I don't think so, but The Giant made a post about the origin of Azurite names. O-Chul's name is derived from Korean, and should have been "Oh Chul", but the Giant didn't want anyone mistaking the "Oh" for the English word "oh". (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14870801&postcount=14)

[MrQ]

Good point. We should probably veer the conversation away from Twentieth Century dictatorships before the thread gets locked.

Probably. Though, I enjoy immensely educating people about this here backwoods.


It's excellent...

Great, I'll give it a look!


No. The former sound is made by either a "z" or by "ts", and I don't think English has the latter sound.

Yeah you do. Think about "George" for a minute. :smallsmile:


I don't think so, but The Giant made a post about the origin of Azurite names. O-Chul's name is derived from Korean, and should have been "Oh Chul", but the Giant didn't want anyone mistaking the "Oh" for the English word "oh". (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14870801&postcount=14)

...And how come does he pull off Sangwaan as thai name?

[Rogar Demonblud]

You forgot the Flash expy, the Doctor Who expy, the Fox Mulder expy and more I'm forgetting about. It can be a weird strip.


A question: Has anyone seen anyone mangle O-chul into any shape or form?

The most common I've seen is to name him O'Chul. And they don't even give him a pint of Guinness first.

[MrQ]

You forgot the Flash expy, the Doctor Who expy, the Fox Mulder expy and more I'm forgetting about. It can be a weird strip.



The most common I've seen is to name him O'Chul. And they don't even give him a pint of Guinness first.

That's again one of those typos you just can't blame on being typo. Tho, admittedly, I have no recollections of american/english layouts.

Are they far enough to justify it being just a mistake or blindness and illiteracy?

[The Pilgrim]

Technically that's debatable. Of course, peacetime calls for different tactics, one of them being NOT throwing your own population to the gulags.

As an interesting side note, the current incarceration rate in the US is superior to the soviet incarceration rate during the gulag era. Guess how history goes in cycles.

But yeah, let's stop discussing 20th century topics before we all get six-gunned.

[Sir_Leorik]

That's again one of those typos you just can't blame on being typo. Tho, admittedly, I have no recollections of american/english layouts.

Are they far enough to justify it being just a mistake or blindness and illiteracy?

In the spirit of not attracting too much attention to this thread, let's assume it's a combination of typos, lack of time to proofread properly and a highly aggressive auto-correct program (one that is secretly developing into an Evil computer sentience as we speak! :smalleek:). In fact all three elements feed off each other; being in a rush to post causes more typos, and the more typos there are to autocorrect means that the Skynet wannabe in everyone's iPhones gets more opportunities to change the typos beyond recognition. And if you're already in a rush to post...

[Sir_Leorik]

As an interesting side note, the current incarceration rate in the US is superior to the soviet incarceration rate during the gulag era. Guess how history goes in cycles.

Well, the Gulag tended to have a higher mortality rate than the average American prison. Kind of like the Bloodstone Correctional Facility and Gladiatorial Arena. :smallwink:

[MrQ]

Well, the Gulag tended to have a higher mortality rate than the average American prison. Kind of like the Bloodstone Correctional Facility and Gladiatorial Arena. :smallwink:

Less lifers, tho. Then again, that's debatable. I mean, what good is 20 years sentence if you're dead halfway there? And isn't that, by definition, "life without parole"?

Let's keep in mind that US clocks somewhere between 300 and 350 megapersons. USSR had half of that, maximum, at least to my knowledge. So, it's far easier to incarcerate more people. That said, it's probably safe to say that there's a... shall we say, certain flaws in the whole penal system.

But I digress from digressing. Does acknowledging that keep us safe from two-gun kids?

[Lettuce]

Technically, though, as Japanese doesn't have the letter J in their inventory (though it appears in romanization. Never quite got that.), so I'm assuming it's meant to represent Hinyo instead of Hin-cho, Hin-zo or any such English renditions.

Interesting fun fact, if above is correct, then Shojo should be pronounced Shoyo... which should, unless I'm completely mistaken, mean "Soy sauce".

A correction: Japanese doesn't have any real 'letters' in it at all; the smallest unit of sound is a syllable. They have individual characters like か ka, き ki, く ku, け ke, こ ko that each stand for a syllable...whereas in English, we have two letters that combine for each of those sounds (like k + a).

And there ARE syllables that start with the "j-" sound. じゃ ja, じ ji,　じゅ ju,　じょ jo. Interestingly something like 'ja' has two characters, but it's pronounced as just one syllable, with the second character modifying the first character's sound (じ + ゃ).


As for Xykon/Zykon etc. - people's memories work differently. Some people (I am one) have very auditory-based memories. When I read something, I hear it aloud in my head, and when I remember it, I basically read it "aloud" back to myself.

That's actually a really good explanation for some of the errors. I know I definitely "hear" the characters talking in my head when I read their thought bubbles, and if someone is very much an auditory learner and they always hear "Xykon" which sounds like "Zykon" when read, I imagine keeping the correct spelling straight in their head can be a little tough!

[Everyl]

A correction: Japanese doesn't have any real 'letters' in it at all; the smallest unit of sound is a syllable. They have individual characters like か ka, き ki, く ku, け ke, こ ko that each stand for a syllable...whereas in English, we have two letters that combine for each of those sounds (like k + a).

And there ARE syllables that start with the "j-" sound. じゃ ja, じ ji,　じゅ ju,　じょ jo. Interestingly something like 'ja' has two characters, but it's pronounced as just one syllable, with the second character modifying the first character's sound (じ + ゃ).

I just read the entire thread from the beginning, and I'm glad I'm not the only person who caught this point. I think you explained it a lot more concisely than I was going to.

And I'm pretty sure the reason that some Japanese syllables (like "ja," "ju," and "jo" from your examples) are written with two characters is because those sounds don't appear in words with native Japanese etymologies. A very large portion of the Japanese vocabulary is borrowed from Chinese, mostly (but not entirely) Cantonese from around the time that the Japanese adopted the Chinese writing system. When the Japanese later developed their own writing systems (plural!), some Chinese sounds didn't fit neatly into the syllabary, so they came to be written as a compound of one character that starts with something resembling the right consonant and another that ends with the right vowel sound.

The /dʒ/ sound (a hard "J" if I'm remembering my phonetic spelling correctly) definitely exists in Japanese. Whether it's written with a "j" in other languages depends on what system of transliteration you are using. There is no standardized transliteration system from Japanese to any other language, so there are many competing ones in common use, and advertisers and authors like to further muddy things with "creative" English spellings of Japanese-derived words and names. The most common methods I've seen in the time I've lived here translate anything starting with じ (pronounced "ji") as starting with a j-, but I've seen it written with a z- or zh- on occasion, especially in older works. Without going into even further detail, using z- or zh- makes sense if you're only concerned with the language as written, but doesn't reflect the way the words are spoken nearly as accurately as j- does.

[ORione]

I've seen quite a few people put accents over the "E" in "Elan". Why?

[Gift Jeraff]

I've seen quite a few people put accents over the "E" in "Elan". Why?

Mobile autocorrect I'm assuming.

[Sir_Leorik]

I've seen quite a few people put accents over the "E" in "Elan". Why?

Because "Élan" is a real English word, a noun for "energy and enthusiasm" if Merriam Webster is to be trusted. I presume that the accursed AutoCorrect is busy making sure we all know that Elan has élan, something sinister like that. Curse you AutoCorrect!

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's French actually, hence the accent mark, but otherwise, yeah, Autocorrect error.

[Sir_Leorik]

It's French actually, hence the accent mark, but otherwise, yeah, Autocorrect error.

It's a loanword from French, but it's been incorporated into the English language, with the accent.

[MrQ]

A correction: Japanese doesn't have any real 'letters' in it at all; the smallest unit of sound is a syllable. They have individual characters like か ka, き ki, く ku, け ke, こ ko that each stand for a syllable...whereas in English, we have two letters that combine for each of those sounds (like k + a).

And there ARE syllables that start with the "j-" sound. じゃ ja, じ ji,　じゅ ju,　じょ jo. Interestingly something like 'ja' has two characters, but it's pronounced as just one syllable, with the second character modifying the first character's sound (じ + ゃ).


Japanese utilise something called a syllabary. I didn't know what the general skill level in linguistics was here so I didn't want to confuse people by lecturing about that.

And that sound you are referring to seems to be closer to z. But I'm not an expert on Japanese, and I come from hugely different linguistic background.

In this context, it means that I process the "natural sounds" of letters differently. That might have added to any confucion.

[Everyl]

Japanese utilise something called a syllabary. I didn't know what the general skill level in linguistics was here so I didn't want to confuse people by lecturing about that.

And that sound you are referring to seems to be closer to z. But I'm not an expert on Japanese, and I come from hugely different linguistic background.

In this context, it means that I process the "natural sounds" of letters differently. That might have added to any confucion.

I assisted a Japanese teacher in a phonics class recently, and she gave examples of the /dʒ/ sound in both English and Japanese. An odd quirk of the Japanese syllabary is that there are a few syllables that don't quite fit the pattern.


The Japanese syllabary is (mostly) organized into a grid. There are 5 vowel sounds and 10 basic consonants, plus the oddball ん that is just a nasal "n" sound with no vowel attached. That makes for 51 possible sounds, though some consonant-vowel combinations either never existed in Japanese or have been dropped in the modern dialect, so only 46 syllable symbols are in common use today. Some of them can be modified with a mark that looks like a quotation mark - " - to indicate that they are "voiced," as well, turning 's-' sounds into 'z-' sounds, for example.

For the most part, the pattern is simple. The consonant "columns" all go in the same vowel order as you go down them - 'ka' 'ki' 'ku' 'ke' ko', 'na' 'ni' 'nu' 'ne' 'no', etc. Some of the columns, however, have exceptions, where certain consonant-vowel combinations result in the consonant being pronounced a little differently. In particular, the leading consonant of what you would expect to be "si" is pronounced much more closely to the English "sh" sound than to "s," and is usually transliterated accordingly. Add the voiced marker, and "zi" is actually pronounced "ji", with a leading /dʒ/ sound. This happens to a few other syllables, too - "ti" is pronounced "chi," and "tu" is pronounced "tsu." "Hu" winds up being a sound somewhere between "hu" and "fu" in English, leading to all sorts of confusion when trying to transliterate it.

This is why the Japanese use the two-character compounds to write certain sounds. They can most definitely hear the difference between "ja" and "za," but their native syllabary doesn't have a way to represent that in a single character, since words with a native Japanese etymology don't use the "ja" syllable. Chinese borrow words often use that sound and other "j-" syllables, however, so they use the two-character compounds to write syllables like "ja," "ju," and "jo." In the end, if you factor in all the voiced sounds and two-character compounds, there are eighty-something distinct syllables in common use in Japanese writing (IIRC - haven't double-checked that number recently).

Adding to the confusion, modern computer IMEs (software that lets you type on an English-language keyboard and convert the input into Japanese characters) tend to be very forgiving about inputs. Typing "zi" gets you the exact same result as "ji," but "ja" and "za" produce different outputs, with "ja" producing the two-character compound directly.

I can't say how the Japanese "j-" sounds would sound to a native Finnish/French speaker, but I can say from personal experience that it's taught as a distinct sound from "z-" in Japanese schools today.

I assume that MrQ already knows most of this based on what he's said about Japanese so far, but hopefully my explanation can clear up some details and help other readers understand what we're talking about.

Edit: added a bit about IMEs in the spoiler

[Lettuce]

I assisted a Japanese teacher in a phonics class recently, and she gave examples of the /dʒ/ sound in both English and Japanese. An odd quirk of the Japanese syllabary is that there are a few syllables that don't quite fit the pattern.


The Japanese syllabary is (mostly) organized into a grid. There are 5 vowel sounds and 10 basic consonants, plus the oddball ん that is just a nasal "n" sound with no vowel attached. That makes for 51 possible sounds, though some consonant-vowel combinations either never existed in Japanese or have been dropped in the modern dialect, so only 46 syllable symbols are in common use today. Some of them can be modified with a mark that looks like a quotation mark - " - to indicate that they are "voiced," as well, turning 's-' sounds into 'z-' sounds, for example.

For the most part, the pattern is simple. The consonant "columns" all go in the same vowel order as you go down them - 'ka' 'ki' 'ku' 'ke' ko', 'na' 'ni' 'nu' 'ne' 'no', etc. Some of the columns, however, have exceptions, where certain consonant-vowel combinations result in the consonant being pronounced a little differently. In particular, the leading consonant of what you would expect to be "si" is pronounced much more closely to the English "sh" sound than to "s," and is usually transliterated accordingly. Add the voiced marker, and "zi" is actually pronounced "ji", with a leading /dʒ/ sound. This happens to a few other syllables, too - "ti" is pronounced "chi," and "tu" is pronounced "tsu." "Hu" winds up being a sound somewhere between "hu" and "fu" in English, leading to all sorts of confusion when trying to transliterate it.

This is why the Japanese use the two-character compounds to write certain sounds. They can most definitely hear the difference between "ja" and "za," but their native syllabary doesn't have a way to represent that in a single character, since words with a native Japanese etymology don't use the "ja" syllable. Chinese borrow words often use that sound and other "j-" syllables, however, so they use the two-character compounds to write syllables like "ja," "ju," and "jo." In the end, if you factor in all the voiced sounds and two-character compounds, there are eighty-something distinct syllables in common use in Japanese writing (IIRC - haven't double-checked that number recently).

Adding to the confusion, modern computer IMEs (software that lets you type on an English-language keyboard and convert the input into Japanese characters) tend to be very forgiving about inputs. Typing "zi" gets you the exact same result as "ji," but "ja" and "za" produce different outputs, with "ja" producing the two-character compound directly.

I can't say how the Japanese "j-" sounds would sound to a native Finnish/French speaker, but I can say from personal experience that it's taught as a distinct sound from "z-" in Japanese schools today.

I assume that MrQ already knows most of this based on what he's said about Japanese so far, but hopefully my explanation can clear up some details and help other readers understand what we're talking about.

Edit: added a bit about IMEs in the spoiler

Thank you for the detailed explanation; it was very educational! I don't know linguistics terms, but I used to live in Japan, and everything you've described about the language itself is spot-on. :smallsmile:

[MrQ]

I assisted a Japanese teacher in a phonics class recently, and she gave examples of the /dʒ/ sound in both English and Japanese. An odd quirk of the Japanese syllabary is that there are a few syllables that don't quite fit the pattern.


The Japanese syllabary is (mostly) organized into a grid. There are 5 vowel sounds and 10 basic consonants, plus the oddball ん that is just a nasal "n" sound with no vowel attached. That makes for 51 possible sounds, though some consonant-vowel combinations either never existed in Japanese or have been dropped in the modern dialect, so only 46 syllable symbols are in common use today. Some of them can be modified with a mark that looks like a quotation mark - " - to indicate that they are "voiced," as well, turning 's-' sounds into 'z-' sounds, for example.

For the most part, the pattern is simple. The consonant "columns" all go in the same vowel order as you go down them - 'ka' 'ki' 'ku' 'ke' ko', 'na' 'ni' 'nu' 'ne' 'no', etc. Some of the columns, however, have exceptions, where certain consonant-vowel combinations result in the consonant being pronounced a little differently. In particular, the leading consonant of what you would expect to be "si" is pronounced much more closely to the English "sh" sound than to "s," and is usually transliterated accordingly. Add the voiced marker, and "zi" is actually pronounced "ji", with a leading /dʒ/ sound. This happens to a few other syllables, too - "ti" is pronounced "chi," and "tu" is pronounced "tsu." "Hu" winds up being a sound somewhere between "hu" and "fu" in English, leading to all sorts of confusion when trying to transliterate it.

This is why the Japanese use the two-character compounds to write certain sounds. They can most definitely hear the difference between "ja" and "za," but their native syllabary doesn't have a way to represent that in a single character, since words with a native Japanese etymology don't use the "ja" syllable. Chinese borrow words often use that sound and other "j-" syllables, however, so they use the two-character compounds to write syllables like "ja," "ju," and "jo." In the end, if you factor in all the voiced sounds and two-character compounds, there are eighty-something distinct syllables in common use in Japanese writing (IIRC - haven't double-checked that number recently).

Adding to the confusion, modern computer IMEs (software that lets you type on an English-language keyboard and convert the input into Japanese characters) tend to be very forgiving about inputs. Typing "zi" gets you the exact same result as "ji," but "ja" and "za" produce different outputs, with "ja" producing the two-character compound directly.

I can't say how the Japanese "j-" sounds would sound to a native Finnish/French speaker, but I can say from personal experience that it's taught as a distinct sound from "z-" in Japanese schools today.

I assume that MrQ already knows most of this based on what he's said about Japanese so far, but hopefully my explanation can clear up some details and help other readers understand what we're talking about.

Edit: added a bit about IMEs in the spoiler

Yeah. You wrapped it up pretty good there. As to your veiled question, native finnish [j] is an allophone to english to /y/ in "yet", "yon", "yen" and the likes of it. Ironically, there might be a typo there, I'm not sure if I should've gone with IPA phoneme between the dashes.

Finnish being completely phonetic, there is only one sound per letter and they are invariable.

So, that makes this actually very interesting. Are we to understand Shojo is to be said "Shocho", "Shoyo", "Shodzo" or "Shosho"? According to what I read, all of these are possibilities in theory.

(Disclaimer: I think standard english alphabet is accurate enough to approximate the corresponding Japanese sounds, while being readily accessible to those us not into linguistics. I hope this is acceptable?)

[Lettuce]

Yeah. You wrapped it up pretty good there. As to your veiled question, native finnish [j] is an allophone to english to /y/ in "yet", "yon", "yen" and the likes of it. Ironically, there might be a typo there, I'm not sure if I should've gone with IPA phoneme between the dashes.

Finnish being completely phonetic, there is only one sound per letter and they are invariable.

So, that makes this actually very interesting. Are we to understand Shojo is to be said "Shocho", "Shoyo", "Shodzo" or "Shosho"? According to what I read, all of these are possibilities in theory.

(Disclaimer: I think standard english alphabet is accurate enough to approximate the corresponding Japanese sounds, while being readily accessible to those us not into linguistics. I hope this is acceptable?)

Japanese is also pretty much a phonetic language (aside from if you talk quickly and elide some vowels, and I guess some particles have a different reading, but that's it).

And using the Japanese pronunciation, Shojo would be pronounced much like "show" + "joe". It's a hard 'j' sound. Assuming that the romanization isn't leaving out extended vowels... in Japanese, it'd be written (しょじょ -- or treated as a foreign name, ショジョ. Foreign loanwords and foreign names use a different set of kana (syllabic writing))． The hard j sounds that Japanese has are ja, ji, ju, and jo. So "jo" is a completely pronounceable and natural Japanese sound; there isn't a need to come up with an approximation for the sound with other characters because 'jo' is already a valid and and commonly-used sound in Japanese.



I think 'jo' is giving a little bit of trouble because it involves two modifications to the main character し. Let me explain how both of them work:

Everyl's explanation about how the syllables are laid out is very accurate. Here's a link to a chart of the syllables (http://images.wikia.com/japanese/images/c/c0/Hiragana-chart.gif) to help us visualize it a little better. There's a line of syllables that go sa さ, si し, su す, se せ, so そ.

Si is pronounced with an "sh-" sound and sounds much like the English word "she". It's acceptable--and in my experience, actually far more common-- to romanize the character 'shi' instead of 'si'. As Everyl explained in his earlier post, this happens with some of the other characters too: like 'ti' is written as 'chi', 'tu' is written as 'tsu', etc. These phonetic spellings are in the chart I linked.

So how do these characters get modified? Let's look at some examples.

To start with an example that has no variations in the consonant, let's look at the "k-" line. It goes ka か, ki き,　ku く,　ke け,　ko こ. All of those are like a hard 'k' sound, like the k in the English word "key". (I'm sorry, I don't know the linguistic alphabet, so all I can do is provide examples). Pretty straightforward, right?

Now. These syllables--and many other lines--can be modified by adding what looks like a little quotation mark to the upper right hand corner of the character. These are called dakuten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakuten) and they change the consonant of the character. In the case of the "k-" line, they change the "k-" line to a "g-" line.

So か　ka becomes が　ga, き　ki becomes ぎ　gi, and so on. Let me write them side by side so you can see how similar they are:

か　き　く　け　こ　　(ka, ki, ku, ke, ko)
が　ぎ　ぐ　げ　ご (ga, gi, gu, ge, go)

They're exactly the same aside from the dakuten.

Now, to get back to the "j-" sounds we were talking about earlier... You can take the "s-" line and modify it using dakuten too.

Here's the s- line
さ　し　す　せ　そ (sa, shi, su, se, so)

and here's the z-/j- line

ざ　じ　ず　ぜ　ぞ (za, ji, zu, ze, zo)

All of the "s-" sounds become "z-" sounds, and the "sh-" sound becomes a "j-" sound.

To be completely clear, 'za, zu, ze, and zo' are pronounced with a "z-" sound that's in the English word 'zipper". 'ji' is pronounced with a 'j-' sound that's in the English word "jaw". じ ji is pronounced pretty similarly to the English word "gee" (as in "Gee wiz, ma, I could really go for some pop"). To give a less-dated example, it's also similar to the sound in the word "jeep".

--

But then how do you get a sound like 'jo', if the only 'j-' sound is 'ji'? Shouldn't 'jo' be pronounced 'zo', you might ask?

That brings us to our second modification!

It's called a youon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C5%8Don), and it's a modification given to all of the syllables that end in '-i'. It makes compound sounds, kind of like diphthongs in most cases. Here's how it works:

You take the "-i" variation of a syllabic line and add a small character next to it. Like so:

き ki can become きゃ kya, きゅ kyu, or きょ kyo. Despite having two characters, these are all treated as one syllable, with the second character modifying the first.

"きう kiu" doesn't sound like "きゅ kyu" because although the same basic vowels are used, the stress is completely different. "kiu" is two syllables with equal weight (ki + u) and "kyu" is said like one syllable (pronounced much like the English word "cue" or "queue").

Now, since our friend じ ji ends in an "-i" vowel, we can use this system of modifying it.

So じ ji can become じゃ jya, じゅ jyu, and じょ jyo (usually shortened in romanization to ja, ju, and jo. This is because unlike the aforementioned examples of kya/kyu/kyo, you can get rid of the "y" in jya/jyu/jyo because there is no other way of writing those characters... whereas if you dropped the "y" from kya/kyu/kyo and just wrote ka ku and ko in roman characters, they could easily be confused with the unmodified syllables ka か,　ku く,　ko こ. It would make the romanized reading incomprehensible).

Just like じ ji... じゃ ja, じゅ ju, and じょ jo are all pronounced with a hard j- sound. "じゃ ja" is pronounced similarly to the first sound in English word "Jamaica", "じゅ ju" is pronounced similarly to the English word "June", and "じょ jo" is pronounced similarly to the English name "Joe".

--

The youon also is responsible the first syllable of Shojo's name. "sho" is a compound of し shi. Shi becomes しゃ sha,　しゅ shu,　しょ sho. "Sha" is pronounced similarly to the beginning of the English word "Shawl", "shu" is pronounced similarly to the English word "shoe", and "sho" is pronounced similarly to the English word "show".

So all together and pulling kana directly from the romanized name and assuming no elongated vowels that were lost in translation to romanized characters in the first place, Shojo's name would be written as しょじょ.

I hope that explains it. :) And congratulations on making your way through such a long post!

[MrQ]

Japanese is also pretty much a phonetic language (aside from if you talk quickly and elide some vowels, and I guess some particles have a different reading, but that's it).

And using the Japanese pronunciation, Shojo would be pronounced much like "show" + "joe". It's a hard 'j' sound. Assuming that the romanization isn't leaving out extended vowels... in Japanese, it'd be written (しょじょ -- or treated as a foreign name, ショジョ. Foreign loanwords and foreign names use a different set of kana (syllabic writing))． The hard j sounds that Japanese has are ja, ji, ju, and jo. So "jo" is a completely pronounceable and natural Japanese sound; there isn't a need to come up with an approximation for the sound with other characters because 'jo' is already a valid and and commonly-used sound in Japanese.



I think 'jo' is giving a little bit of trouble because it involves two modifications to the main character し. Let me explain how both of them work:

Everyl's explanation about how the syllables are laid out is very accurate. Here's a link to a chart of the syllables (http://images.wikia.com/japanese/images/c/c0/Hiragana-chart.gif) to help us visualize it a little better. There's a line of syllables that go sa さ, si し, su す, se せ, so そ.

Si is pronounced with an "sh-" sound and sounds much like the English word "she". It's acceptable--and in my experience, actually far more common-- to romanize the character 'shi' instead of 'si'. As Everyl explained in his earlier post, this happens with some of the other characters too: like 'ti' is written as 'chi', 'tu' is written as 'tsu', etc. These phonetic spellings are in the chart I linked.

So how do these characters get modified? Let's look at some examples.

To start with an example that has no variations in the consonant, let's look at the "k-" line. It goes ka か, ki き,　ku く,　ke け,　ko こ. All of those are like a hard 'k' sound, like the k in the English word "key". (I'm sorry, I don't know the linguistic alphabet, so all I can do is provide examples). Pretty straightforward, right?

Now. These syllables--and many other lines--can be modified by adding what looks like a little quotation mark to the upper right hand corner of the character. These are called dakuten (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakuten) and they change the consonant of the character. In the case of the "k-" line, they change the "k-" line to a "g-" line.

So か　ka becomes が　ga, き　ki becomes ぎ　gi, and so on. Let me write them side by side so you can see how similar they are:

か　き　く　け　こ　　(ka, ki, ku, ke, ko)
が　ぎ　ぐ　げ　ご (ga, gi, gu, ge, go)

They're exactly the same aside from the dakuten.

Now, to get back to the "j-" sounds we were talking about earlier... You can take the "s-" line and modify it using dakuten too.

Here's the s- line
さ　し　す　せ　そ (sa, shi, su, se, so)

and here's the z-/j- line

ざ　じ　ず　ぜ　ぞ (za, ji, zu, ze, zo)

All of the "s-" sounds become "z-" sounds, and the "sh-" sound becomes a "j-" sound.

To be completely clear, 'za, zu, ze, and zo' are pronounced with a "z-" sound that's in the English word 'zipper". 'ji' is pronounced with a 'j-' sound that's in the English word "jaw". じ ji is pronounced pretty similarly to the English word "gee" (as in "Gee wiz, ma, I could really go for some pop"). To give a less-dated example, it's also similar to the sound in the word "jeep".

--

But then how do you get a sound like 'jo', if the only 'j-' sound is 'ji'? Shouldn't 'jo' be pronounced 'zo', you might ask?

That brings us to our second modification!

It's called a youon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%C5%8Don), and it's a modification given to all of the syllables that end in '-i'. It makes compound sounds, kind of like diphthongs in most cases. Here's how it works:

You take the "-i" variation of a syllabic line and add a small character next to it. Like so:

き ki can become きゃ kya, きゅ kyu, or きょ kyo. Despite having two characters, these are all treated as one syllable, with the second character modifying the first.

"きう kiu" doesn't sound like "きゅ kyu" because although the same basic vowels are used, the stress is completely different. "kiu" is two syllables with equal weight (ki + u) and "kyu" is said like one syllable (pronounced much like the English word "cue" or "queue").

Now, since our friend じ ji ends in an "-i" vowel, we can use this system of modifying it.

So じ ji can become じゃ jya, じゅ jyu, and じょ jyo (usually shortened in romanization to ja, ju, and jo. This is because unlike the aforementioned examples of kya/kyu/kyo, you can get rid of the "y" in jya/jyu/jyo because there is no other way of writing those characters... whereas if you dropped the "y" from kya/kyu/kyo and just wrote ka ku and ko in roman characters, they could easily be confused with the unmodified syllables ka か,　ku く,　ko こ. It would make the romanized reading incomprehensible).

Just like じ ji... じゃ ja, じゅ ju, and じょ jo are all pronounced with a hard j- sound. "じゃ ja" is pronounced similarly to the first sound in English word "Jamaica", "じゅ ju" is pronounced similarly to the English word "June", and "じょ jo" is pronounced similarly to the English name "Joe".

--

The youon also is responsible the first syllable of Shojo's name. "sho" is a compound of し shi. Shi becomes しゃ sha,　しゅ shu,　しょ sho. "Sha" is pronounced similarly to the beginning of the English word "Shawl", "shu" is pronounced similarly to the English word "shoe", and "sho" is pronounced similarly to the English word "show".

So all together and pulling kana directly from the romanized name and assuming no elongated vowels that were lost in translation to romanized characters in the first place, Shojo's name would be written as しょじょ.

I hope that explains it. :) And congratulations on making your way through such a long post!

Yeah. I pretty much got it. Thanks for clearing this up. Now, as for the whole Sangwaan thing, I could go for similar lengths to explain why I associated first with Korean, instead of Thai... but that'll have to wait.

That said, I accept that it's not meant to be Thai name, but Thai-influenced. As such, please notice my previous remark about Korean.:smallsmile: