When a PC dies..

[Cryov]

When a PC dies and decides to roll out a new character vs having his rezz'd..how do you typically handle the loot on his body?
Do you hand it out to the party? Say he is buried with it?
I ask because a campaign I'm in, the players seem to be abusing the DM who is letting them keep the loot and putting them way over the gold average for their level.

I've discussed this with him but he doesn't just want to DM fiat the dead pc being buried with the gear because it doesn't make sense.
Any ideas?


*edit* So far only 3 deaths have occurred and we are at level 6, i'm just worried about this in the further down the campaign,

[Werephilosopher]

It makes a lot of sense for a PC's gear to be buried with him- or given to his family, military order, commander, religion, liege etc.What does not make sense is for an adventuring group with such a high mortality rate to have newcomers wanting to join up constantly.

In this case, the DM should say that new characters don't start with any wealth at all, because they know the party they're joining is wealthy enough to outfit them.

EDIT: Or, as a more subtle approach, ask the DM to reduce the treasure your party finds, so wealth remains at an acceptable level.

[ryu]

When a PC dies and decides to roll out a new character vs having his rezz'd..how do you typically handle the loot on his body?
Do you hand it out to the party? Say he is buried with it?
I ask because a campaign I'm in, the players seem to be abusing the DM who is letting them keep the loot and putting them way over the gold average for their level.

I've discussed this with him but he doesn't just want to DM fiat the dead pc being buried with the gear because it doesn't make sense.
Any ideas?

Throw out wealth by level entirely and make gold-making ventures a thing that can be willingly taken on at any time?

Simply point out that high concentrations of magic items tends to attract the kinds of threats that would want them? Being at a lower level with higher value gear than normal is just asking for a nasty npc to take notice. If they complain just point out that they can still totally do this if they want. It just shifts balance up CR slightly unless this has already gotten way out of hand.

[Phelix-Mu]

There are a number of ways to handle this, but it is definitely a problem, especially if not everyone in the party is strictly good-aligned (or at least neutral enough to be trusted).

1.) If the pc dies heroically, their spirit is accepted into the afterlife to serve [insert appropriate god/dess here]. A celestial appears and collects the gear, leaving any coin or gems for the rest of the party to divide up, and respecting the dead character's wishes if it's appropriate (and balanced) for certain items to be passed on (plot significant stuff, this option is mostly to enhance role play, not get nice stuff for free).

2.) If the party keeps the stuff, the DM is well within rights to have future fights give less. One of my tricks is to have a series of encounters where the enemies use up most of their wealth in the form of consumables used during the fight. Healing potions, necklaces of fireballs, mostly-expended wands, these can all be used to add pressure to the party in a fight and also explain why there is little in the way of loot.

3.) Break stuff. There are numerous monsters that, since ancient days of 1e, were essentially designed to destroy the gear of the party members. Rust monsters, oozes that consume metal, green slime (DMG76), disenchanters, and the like are all options. Alternatively, have stuff stolen.

4.) NPC from dead character's past shows up. Turns out the dead character owed some debts. Time to pay up. Don't take everything, but this is a good way to rebalance wealth and include a plot-hook that makes the dead guy (or at least his former possessions) continue being relevant.

5.) Ignore it. Depending on the optimization level of the game, the cash flow can accelerate very quickly. At some point, being ahead of the WBL curve for a bit stops mattering all that much.

[Slipperychicken]

Have your PCs write wills. Bam, problem solved.

Have this PC retcon a will. Bam, problem solved.

[Cryov]

Thanks for the suggestions Phelix, I ran them by my DM and I'll see what he says.
FYI most of the party is neutral..and despite us being ahead of the gold curve, people are still dying. Cleric guy died early on, first sorc died when hit by death lotus extract at level 4 (literally part of the campaign path), and 2nd sorc died when he got crit'd by a composite longbow from a half ogre...

Just dont want to make a habit of players dying and choosing to reroll.

[SowZ]

Matter of death can also destroy the gear. Shot by a big ballista? His armor is ripped to shreads. Blew up via a spell or bomb? Most of his gear was incinerated. Fell to his death? His sword snapped hitting the ground. Assassin slit his throat? He also pickpocketed him of any smaller trinkets. (Gold, amulets, rings, etc.)

[Corinath]

Yo, 3 deaths by level 6? Is that normal?

One shoting two of your party members seems a bit, um, off to me. But I don't have as much experience here as most people.

Unless the DM was like "This is going to be some hardcore gameplay" right off the bat. Then, sure, whatever.

EDIT: Words are hard

[Phelix-Mu]

Three deaths at low levels is probably on the high side of normal for a low-op or inexperienced group of players or inexperienced DM, but not so high as to be alarming. Bad luck is a b*&ch, and it's never quite as big a thing as it is before 5th. Optimization can all but remove bad luck as a factor, but it still rears its ugly head from time to time.

The key here is that players should be learning from past mistakes and not rolling up new characters that are just as poorly outfitted for life as the last ones. Getting crit'd is one thing, but next time johnny shouldn't be standing in the line of fire so much.

[Cryov]

Yo, 3 deaths by level 6? Is that normal?

One shoting two of your party members seems a bit, um, off to me. But I don't have as much experience here as most people.

Unless the DM was like "This is going to be some hardcore gameplay" right off the bat. Then, sure, whatever.

EDIT: Words are hard

All the deaths were legit part of the jade regeant campaign path.
The cleric decided to fight 6 guys on his own, the ninja who shoots a poison dart that had death lotus extract then vanishes was part of the path from the book, and the sorc getting crit'd with a half ogre using a composite bow was just bad luck.
Besides, campaigns where DMs hold your hand are boring. I like the threat of death.
Long live Prince Kog, the werebear half ogre ghostbuster!
(yes, I got bitten by a werebear recently..also part of the campaign..and my half ogre is a nerfed variant of one)

[Slipperychicken]

Yo, 3 deaths by level 6? Is that normal?


My current campaign (~6/8 players are present at a given time) had like 4 PC deaths at levels 1-2. I think it was mostly attributable to bad optimization*, worse tactics**, and poor rolls.

*(Our Elf Gunslinger chose the Cosmopolitan feat at first level. Our Witch chose Evil Eye and Cackle as hexes, and only selected [Mind-Affecting] spells)

**(our newbie 2H guisarme fighter decided she was cowardly, so she let the archers tank while she thew a javelin and generally screwed around until she died :smallfurious:)

[Abithrios]

When a PC dies in my group, the player is given the choice to either keep the old character's stuff or get new gear for the new character. As the new characters have never been clones of the dead ones, the latter option has always been taken. We sometimes can take one or two things from the deceased, especially if they were found in treasure, especially recent treasure.


My current campaign (~6/8 players are present at a given time) had like 4 PC deaths at levels 1-2. I think it was mostly attributable to bad optimization*, worse tactics**, and poor rolls.

*(Our Elf Gunslinger chose the Cosmopolitan feat at first level. Our Witch chose Evil Eye and Cackle as hexes, and only selected [Mind-Affecting] spells)

**(our newbie 2H guisarme fighter decided she was cowardly, so she let the archers tank while she thew a javelin and generally screwed around until she died :smallfurious:)
So it was the coward who died?

That would be more fair, but it seems that the archers would be more at risk.


Simply point out that high concentrations of magic items tends to attract the kinds of threats that would want them? Being at a lower level with higher value gear than normal is just asking for a nasty npc to take notice. If they complain just point out that they can still totally do this if they want. It just shifts balance up CR slightly unless this has already gotten way out of hand.

One problem I have with the "more wealth attracts powerful, greedy NPCs" thing is this: where are those NPCs when the the party is appropriately equipped? WBL alone is quite a good haul for a party of enemy adventurers several levels higher than the party, and there is always a bigger fish.

[ryu]

So it was the coward who died?

That would be more fair, but it seems that the archers would be more at risk.


One problem I have with the "more wealth attracts powerful, greedy NPCs" thing is this: where are those NPCs when the the party is apropriately equipped? WBL alone is quite a good haul for a party of enemy adventurers several levels higher than the party, and there is always a bigger fish.

Difference here? Lower level characters are less likely to have made allies of the like to hunt down any attackers, or simply res the heroes to hunt them at a later date. They also apparently have about 1.5 times normal value which isn't insignificant in terms of profit margin at all.

[Slipperychicken]

So it was the coward who died?

That would be more fair, but it seems that the archers would be more at risk.

In that fight, pretty much all of us got KO'd by skeletons, but we survived (the Witch managed to Charm Person the necromancer controlling them, and got him to walk off without killing us). The GM flat-out told us that if that hadn't happened, the skeletons would have CDG'd us and taken our stuff.

The fighter died in a later session due to similar shenanigans. At that point she rolled disgustingly well on her hit dice and had ~30 hit points at level 2, but refused to engage because of cowardice. I feel so good that she died in that fight (it felt like karmic retribution since she had just fed a prisoner to a crab-monster, after he told us what we wanted to know). Her new character isn't a coward, thankfully, so we've managed to survive thusfar.

[WbtE]

Have your PCs write wills. Bam, problem solved.

Have this PC retcon a will. Bam, problem solved.

This is the best starting point for solving the problem, although if the survivors are prepared to flaunt character wills then the DM must be prepared to have the authorities defend the law and should "reward" the party with an unsavory reputation.

[Slipperychicken]

This is the best starting point for solving the problem, although if the survivors are prepared to flaunt character wills then the DM must be prepared to have the authorities defend the law and should "reward" the party with an unsavory reputation.

Disrespecting a will would certainly have implications for their alignments, and one could always have a "random" encounter with an Inevitable passing through :smallbiggrin:

Also, sense motive checks from a merchant might tip him off that the dead guy's stuff isn't legit.

[SowZ]

In that fight, pretty much all of us got KO'd by skeletons, but we survived (the Witch managed to Charm Person the necromancer controlling them, and got him to walk off without killing us). The GM flat-out told us that if that hadn't happened, the skeletons would have CDG'd us and taken our stuff.

The fighter died in a later session due to similar shenanigans. At that point she rolled disgustingly well on her hit dice and had ~30 hit points at level 2, but refused to engage because of cowardice. I feel so good that she died in that fight (it felt like karmic retribution since she had just fed a prisoner to a crab-monster, after he told us what we wanted to know). Her new character isn't a coward, thankfully, so we've managed to survive thusfar.

While it is perfectly valid for a character to be a coward, it is also valid for the other characters to say, "I refuse to fight with this person. Let's all find somebody else." Just as if a rogue steals from me, and that group would frown on me attacking him, I will refuse to travel with him. It isn't unfair to the RL players to abandon their PC. Just being a PC doesn't give you the right to be a character that can't be traveled with with zero consequences.

At the least, my character would speak up and ask why we are letting a free-rider follow behind us and steal a fifth of our well earned bounty?

[Slipperychicken]

At the least, my character would speak up and ask why we are letting a free-rider follow behind us and steal a fifth of our well earned bounty?

I explained it poorly. She did engage and do stuff, but it took like 2-3 rounds of OOC haranguing before she finally got into her job at the front line. In those 2-3 rounds, she would do something she thought would be effective like throw a javelin or use Aid Another.

I wouldn't have taken this bull**** from a veteran, but this was like her second session of D&D ever (and it was clear that she was trying to be effective too), so I was willing to cut her a break.

[Benthesquid]

Random thought- the means of the death may very well determine whether their gear is available to their party members- and can even lead to a plot hook!

Think of the Iliad, where almost every death is immediately followed by a battle over the body- the victor trying to strip off the valuable armor and weapons, and the fallen's allies trying to protect the body, and, incidentally, recover the armor and weapons for themselves.

Orcs kill the fighter? Better recover the body quickly before they take his magic items as trophies. Or maybe you're too slow, but your Ranger finds tracks, and you have to find the Orcs and recover the gear before they reach the rest of their Horde.

[Bullet06320]

I don't ever recall a game ive played in where WBL was anything other that wat u could spend on equipping your character when u create it

most of the time when a character dies, if resurrection isn't an option or the player wants to make a new character, usually it gets looted like anything else we come across

if it aint nailed down, its considered loot
ive had a character steal an oil lamp out of a town hall
just cuz I didn't have one, lol

WBL just kinda goes out the window when u pick up everything u can and resell it, How many crappy daggers or swords have u gotten an just tossed away, they can still be sold to a blacksmith as scrap steal to be melted down and reused, ive have characters sell wagon loads of stuff like that, also going so far as to dice up bodies of monsters to be sold to magic suppliers and potion makers, and made orc jerky on one occasion to supplement the partys diet

[Slipperychicken]

WBL just kinda goes out the window when u pick up everything u can and resell it, How many crappy daggers or swords have u gotten an just tossed away, they can still be sold to a blacksmith as scrap steal to be melted down and reused, ive have characters sell wagon loads of stuff like that, also going so far as to dice up bodies of monsters to be sold to magic suppliers and potion makers, and made orc jerky on one occasion to supplement the partys diet

Honestly, that sort of thing tends to become inefficient if you're tracking encumbrance. Hauling 30 longswords and hide armors back to town, after like 6th level, tends to weigh you down without much benefit.

[SowZ]

I don't ever recall a game ive played in where WBL was anything other that wat u could spend on equipping your character when u create it

most of the time when a character dies, if resurrection isn't an option or the player wants to make a new character, usually it gets looted like anything else we come across

if it aint nailed down, its considered loot
ive had a character steal an oil lamp out of a town hall
just cuz I didn't have one, lol

WBL just kinda goes out the window when u pick up everything u can and resell it, How many crappy daggers or swords have u gotten an just tossed away, they can still be sold to a blacksmith as scrap steal to be melted down and reused, ive have characters sell wagon loads of stuff like that, also going so far as to dice up bodies of monsters to be sold to magic suppliers and potion makers, and made orc jerky on one occasion to supplement the partys diet

Aye. Once there was a massive battle in one of my games. At the end, only the PCs and two NPCs survived. They got multiple wagons and filled them completely with armor and weapons. The plan was to come back later for the rest, but they never got the chance. After going to the human capital, they sold it to the government for quarter price to arm new recruits and sell the rest. Quite a chunk of change for fourth level adventurers.

[Bullet06320]

Honestly, that sort of thing tends to become inefficient if you're tracking encumbrance. Hauling 30 longswords and hide armors back to town, after like 6th level, tends to weigh you down without much benefit.

the group I play with has a fetish for wagons, so there is usually room in the caravan for loot, including hirelings driving empty wagons just for loot.
we've even mounted catapults in the back of wagons on swivels, in one case we had a table sitting on top of the catapult and launched it as an attack

[Hurnn]

Unless the group has been heavily good aligned or had 1 or more paladins / lg characters, dead companions are loot.

My LE rogue was infamous about getting to downed comrades first to try and "save" them : ie take the best stuff.

My paladin, everything went to their families unless we needed it right now to live.

the wcl tables are a joke. The amounts are stupidly low; a 7th level character can't afford a +1 flame tongue longsword.

[Slipperychicken]

the group I play with has a fetish for wagons, so there is usually room in the caravan for loot, including hirelings driving empty wagons just for loot.
we've even mounted catapults in the back of wagons on swivels, in one case we had a table sitting on top of the catapult and launched it as an attack

Most groups don't think to use wagons and draft animals, and I assumed (incorrectly) that yours was one of them. Good show :smallbiggrin:

[Bullet06320]

Most groups don't think to use wagons and draft animals, and I assumed (incorrectly) that yours was one of them. Good show :smallbiggrin:

lol, that's all kool, we all have our own play styles, and going out adventuring at our table usually means a travelling army of hirelings, cohorts, and followers, lol
when trouble strikes, the wagons circle like in the old westerns, and the PCs charge out to kill whatever obstacle is thrown in our path, with the hirelings and follwers guard the wagons

[hicegetraenk]

I'm playing with multiple groups, and it really boils down to what the people see in the group member that died.

There is that one group with a very high mortality rate [due to inexperienced players, little strategic thinking, etc.], that takes from the body what is useful for them. Characters tend to not live very long, I'd say about 2-3 levels at average, so they don't have massive bonds. Also the meaning of a good alignment is not very well defined in the players' minds.
No need to say that this group is kind of messed up and exceptionally unbalanced in terms of equipment, but the DM lets them keep player gear from dead characters if it makes sense to not lose it, via a very violent death for example.

Then, in the other group, this question was never raised. The players naturally assumed, that the belongings of their friends were not meant for them, but relatives, afterlife, or whatever fitted their alignment and character context. The only exception was a looted magic weapon we found on low levels, that was passed down to the next character, but given the circumstances we were in at that time, that was totally acceptable.
This group consisted mostly of more experienced, but espespecially very well 'acting' players.

The last group I'm involved in (by DMing) didn't suffer a character loss yet (just made it to level 4 with 5 players), but I expect them to not take everything for themselves, if it would come to a PC death. Up to now they never acted unnaturally greedy, and we have a character in the party that somewhat enforces law. But if need be, I, as a DM, would either chip away at their wealth by means already mentioned in here, and reduce further wealth gain via loot / rewards, till things are at my level of convenience again.

[Heliomance]

the wcl tables are a joke. The amounts are stupidly low; a 7th level character can't afford a +1 flame tongue longsword.

Uh... yes they can. A +1 Flaming sword costs 8000 GP plus change. WBL for level 7 is 19000 GP.

[Andezzar]

Uh... yes they can. A +1 Flaming sword costs 8000 GP plus change. WBL for level 7 is 19000 GP.A Flame Tongue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#flameTongue) is a specific weapon and has more enchantments than a +3 weapon (+1 Flaming Burst and a special ranged attack), so no 7th level character should have that.

The items of the deceased character should be taken care of as denoted in that character's will. If the character has no will, they will distributed as the law of the land dictates (usually to relatives).

A new character would start with WBL. Most likely that is less than the previous character had, but it would not leave him naked. Also if the DM keeps track of the PCs possessions they should not be much over WBL.

[Yawgmoth]

Just give them less loot until they equalize. Or stop treating guidelines as absolute set-in-stone laws and let them fight whatever they're capable. If they're dying that much then they probably need the extra edge anyways.

[prufock]

If the party decides to loot the corpse, and keep the funds for themselves (rather than donating it to the family or other group/individual with which the PC was affiliated), I simply subtract the value of the gear from their later treasure hauls.

[Tvtyrant]

We set up a replacement fund; whoever dies their geld goes to pay for hiring a new member or a resurrection in higher levels. The party becomes more like an adventure company and less like murder-hobos that way.

[Lothmar]

I know our group tends to ensure people have a 'will' or has discussed what we want done should we die and we honor whats written or told to us for the most part if possible.

ex: One character didn't care what happened to most of his gear, so long as background related gear item 'x' was returned to his people and his body was prepared in a certain manner with his mundane gear/clothes.

Another character died death from massive damage from being cleaved from head to groin so a majority of their gear was split and ruined so there was only 3 items that survived that anyone wanted. ~chuckle~

Another character ran ahead and got cut off from the rest of the team and isolated by our enemies and they pretty much looted anything of interest as he and the gm did random high low roll offs to see what was looted and he just lost time after time after time. ~chuckle~

Effectively it's been situational and fairly easy to deal with, especially since we have a lot of npc followers that we tend to equip every time we run into a low level magic item. But I also understand how this could get out of hand fast if not careful.