"Just nova it already" [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Everyl

2013-12-19, 10:55 PM

"Going nova" and "nova psion" are common terms when discussing psions in D&D. Basically, it refers to when a psion throws lots of high-level powers at a problem in an overwhelming assault. Psions can do that more effectively than sorcerers, wizards, or clerics, but they risk running completely out of power points when they do so.

Laurin is annoyed because she already dumped too many of her power points earlier in the battle. She can't afford to go nova at this point, and doesn't like Tarquin backseat-manifesting or calling attention to her dwindling power reserves.

Edit: I should have known that typing two paragraphs would bring the ninjas out of the woodwork.

JessmanCA

2013-12-19, 10:57 PM

So is she doing that just because it costs less PP to dispel/teleport/counterspell than to "nova" things?

Also isn't Resilient Sphere a fairly high level thing to dispel? Normal dispel wouldn't work would it?

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-19, 11:03 PM

So is she doing that just because it costs less PP to dispel/teleport/counterspell than to "nova" things?
Pretty much. "Nova"ing not only implies using high-level powers, but also augmenting (i.e., spending more power points on) lower-level ones as high as possible in an effort to do as much damage as quickly as possible. Trying to wear down V's spell slots doesn't require augmenting as much.

Also isn't Resilient Sphere a fairly high level thing to dispel? Normal dispel wouldn't work would it?
Resilient sphere is a level 4 spell, and is dispellable. I suspect the reason Laurin used disintegrate instead of dispel psionics is that to be sure of destroying the sphere she would have to augment her power, while an unaugmented disintegrate would destroy the sphere with no bother about caster level checks or DCs.

TroubleBrewing

2013-12-19, 11:07 PM

It appears to be a Disintegrate, judging from the ray shooting out of her forehead.

Everyl

2013-12-19, 11:16 PM

It appears to be a Disintegrate, judging from the ray shooting out of her forehead.

Indeed. Disintegrate is only slightly more expensive than fully-augmented Dispel, and Disintegrate is more likely to succeed, in that it's guaranteed without any caster-level checks.

Raphite1

2013-12-20, 12:10 AM

If we're doing psion Q&A here, can someone detail how Laurin countered the Cone of Cold?

SowZ

2013-12-20, 01:19 AM

If we're doing psion Q&A here, can someone detail how Laurin countered the Cone of Cold?

Could have just been Psionic Resistance, though not likely.

tyckspoon

2013-12-20, 02:59 AM

If we're doing psion Q&A here, can someone detail how Laurin countered the Cone of Cold?

Energy Adaptation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyAdaptation.htm) would be the easiest way, IMO; it's fairly cheap to manifest, it has a pretty good duration so it can be pre-cast (thus not requiring Laurin to spend an action), and even if Laurin didn't have it up already it can be augmented to an Immediate action so that she still doesn't have to spend her usual action to put it up in response to V trying to blast her. (If she didn't already have it up it could also be Specified Energy Adaptation, which would be cheaper to manifest but only protects against one kind of energy.) The main argument against would be that the Cone of Cold appears to splash off of Laurin's defense completely, while a 15d6 Cone would on average still deal ~20 damage after the Resist 30 from the power. Still, that could be explained by V rolling low or Laurin passing her save, thus only having to deal with half damage that would be easily resisted unless V rolled amazingly high on his damage.

It could also be Power Resistance and depicting the cone bouncing off as a failed Spell/Power Resistance check.

Kish

2013-12-20, 07:04 AM

So is she doing that just because it costs less PP to dispel/teleport/counterspell than to "nova" things?
Considering she spent almost all her actions negating everything Vaarsuvius did--including dispelling Dimensional Anchor, which wouldn't have hurt her unless she was already planning to retreat--I'd say, no, she did that because her ego demands Vaarsuvius' magic never touch her. She only fled at the end because she realized that she couldn't run Vaarsuvius out of spells first--and if she didn't feel a need to block every single one of Vaarsuvius' spells at the expense of attacking, the logical response to what Vaarsuvius said would have been, "Then it's a pity you won't be alive that long! [silent casting of Disintegrate]"

theinsulabot

2013-12-20, 07:30 AM

I doubt that would have worked actually, it was V's turn before Laurin's, yet Laurin 'ported without V doing anything. That suggests to me V readied a counter spell.

And of course, its V, what are the odds one of those 25 spells isn't a disintegrate or two, not to mention a couple of dispel magics.

Poppy Appletree

2013-12-20, 07:31 AM

Considering she spent almost all her actions negating everything Vaarsuvius did--including dispelling Dimensional Anchor, which wouldn't have hurt her unless she was already planning to retreat--I'd say, no, she did that because her ego demands Vaarsuvius' magic never touch her. She only fled at the end because she realized that she couldn't run Vaarsuvius out of spells first--and if she didn't feel a need to block every single one of Vaarsuvius' spells at the expense of attacking, the logical response to what Vaarsuvius said would have been, "Then it's a pity you won't be alive that long! [silent casting of Disintegrate]"

Vaarsuvius would surely have just counterspelled, seeing as they always prepare that spell anyway.

Aasimar

2013-12-20, 08:14 AM

Counterspell isn't a specific spell, it just means you've used your action to prepare to try to negate another casters spell, either by casting the same spell, a thematic opposite spell (silence vs. shout, cone of cold vs. fireball, etc.) or dispel magic. (or if you have the improved counterspelling feat, any higher level spell of the same school)

I happen to think it's a poor use of actions since you need to have a higher level spell slot ready AND you need to beat their caster level check. (and especially poor when a wizard faces a sorcerer, like when V. tried to counterspell Samantha the bandit queen back in the day, since sorcerers both have more spell slots AND are more likely to be reduncancies of the same spell I.e. even if v. has fireball ready and counterspells fireball, it's not likely he/she has 2-3 iterations of it)

theinsulabot

2013-12-20, 08:31 AM

V knew, or at least had a good guess that Laurin was running on fumes. And Kish was actually right in that Laurin's best, perhaps only chance left to win was to quickly attack and hope to drop V.

Psions don't get a lot of spells, so amped disintegrate was an extremely likely choice. V has disintegrate himself. If Laurin used specifically a disintegrate, V could 100% counter it no matter what she did, if not, he still has dispel magic to fall back on.

In some situations counter spelling is inefficient, but in this case readying one eliminates Laurin's only avenue left for success. I find it quite clever, and indicative of his new found mindset.

Poppy Appletree

2013-12-20, 08:34 AM

Counterspell isn't a specific spell, it just means you've used your action to prepare to try to negate another casters spell, either by casting the same spell

...Yes, I know. :smallconfused: I was referring to disintegrate, which V is partial to.

Lossoth

2013-12-20, 08:35 AM

It actually took me a couple re-reads to realize that 'it' was referring to V, not the Mechane.

Aasimar

2013-12-20, 08:36 AM

ah, my bad.

KillianHawkeye

2013-12-20, 08:52 AM

You don't need to make a caster level check for normal counterspelling. You just have the appropriate spell and the action prepared, and you do it. Caster level checks are only necessary when using Dispel Magic as a general counterspell.

Spoomeister

2013-12-20, 10:31 AM

Referring to V as "it" was a lot more interesting and noteworthy to me than Tarquin's armchair quarterbacking of Laurin's spell usage. :)

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-20, 10:38 AM

Referring to V as "it" was a lot more interesting and noteworthy to me than Tarquin's armchair quarterbacking of Laurin's spell usage. :)
Indeed. If Tarquin had wanted to use a non-committal pronoun, he could have used "they" :smalltongue:

Chronos

2013-12-20, 10:57 AM

What's all this talk of counterspelling? That only works on spells, and Laurin isn't using spells.

Shale

2013-12-20, 11:03 AM

Magic-Psionics Transparency. Basically, wherever the rules say "spell" you can substitute "power" and it works exactly the same.

ORione

2013-12-20, 12:53 PM

Referring to V as "it" was a lot more interesting and noteworthy to me than Tarquin's armchair quarterbacking of Laurin's spell usage. :)

Indeed. It shows how unimportant Tarquin considers Vaarsuvius. "It" is not a word you use to refer to someone you have any respect for.

tulebast

2013-12-20, 01:02 PM

What did Tarquin mean by that? (935)

As reported earlier, Tarquin is attempting to encourage Laurin's action toward blowing through Power Points in an effort to just nuke V out of existence. However, what Laurin and probably V know, and Tarquin does not really seem to be aware of is that

Laurin has already been blowing through a lot of power points. The boards have already estimated that before the face off with V, she'd run through at least 50% of her points (probably more like 65%) even assuming augmentation items.
Laurin has already lost 2 major powers, power points, and manifester levels thanks to Durkon. Vampires impose 2 negative levels, and the penalty for that is horrendously severe for a Psion. Assuming her wormhole power was a 9th level power, that attack alone cost her at least 37 power points (more if she was higher than level 19, the minimum she could be under this assumption). That's likely another 5-8% power point drop right there. she lost access to 2 other 9th level powers, so if she might not have had a 9th level nuke to use (although she could still augment a lower power)
As also pointed out, Laurin has some emotional baggage that V was apparently aware of and could exploit

Anarion

2013-12-20, 02:14 PM

One thing to keep in mind is even if Laurin did pull out all the stops to defeat V, she would be left defenseless on a ship full of enemies. That's not really her ideal spot, and I don't think she was willing to put herself in that kind of risk.

Indeed. It shows how unimportant Tarquin considers Vaarsuvius. "It" is not a word you use to refer to someone you have any respect for.

I don't agree. I think Tarquin was being brusque, but also simply didn't know V's gender. Tarquin has demonstrated enough intelligence to be aware that "they" is grammatically incorrect to refer to one person, so went with "it" instead. I'm not arguing that Tarquin does respect V. Just that casual usage of "it" doesn't really indicate respect one way or the other in this context.

Reddish Mage

2013-12-20, 02:24 PM

Considering she spent almost all her actions negating everything Vaarsuvius did--including dispelling Dimensional Anchor, which wouldn't have hurt her unless she was already planning to retreat--I'd say, no, she did that because her ego demands Vaarsuvius' magic never touch her. She only fled at the end because she realized that she couldn't run Vaarsuvius out of spells first--and if she didn't feel a need to block every single one of Vaarsuvius' spells at the expense of attacking, the logical response to what Vaarsuvius said would have been, "Then it's a pity you won't be alive that long! [silent casting of Disintegrate]"

I'd like to see an example of a Psion "Novaing" effectively, since a single power use can be countered generally. It appears in OOTS counterspell is working very robustly and effectively as a means to thwart casters by other casters. I otherwise agree with Aasimar that the way it is set up, counterspelling is difficult to do and generally not a productive use of a caster's resources.

luagha

2013-12-20, 03:18 PM

chibibar

2013-12-20, 04:07 PM

I'd like to see an example of a Psion "Novaing" effectively, since a single power use can be countered generally. It appears in OOTS counterspell is working very robustly and effectively as a means to thwart casters by other casters. I otherwise agree with Aasimar that the way it is set up, counterspelling is difficult to do and generally not a productive use of a caster's resources.

It is a good way if you know what they might be casting and counter spell to prevent the effect. Zzritd (I can't spell) use natural resistant to counter while Samantha uses her counter spell/dispel to counter (effectively)

I have to agree that Laurin will not "Nova" and possibly use up all her points and have no means of escape (her popular spell it seems)

Jay R

2013-12-20, 04:35 PM

Indeed. If Tarquin had wanted to use a non-committal pronoun, he could have used "they" :smalltongue:

If Tarquin had said, "Just nova them already," we'd all have thought he meant everyone on the ship, not just V.

While some people use "they"/"them" as a singular non-gender-specific pronoun when the number is clear in context, it doesn't work when trying to speciify an individual instead of a crowd.

Sky_Schemer

2013-12-20, 04:52 PM

Considering she spent almost all her actions negating everything Vaarsuvius did--including dispelling Dimensional Anchor, which wouldn't have hurt her unless she was already planning to retreat

I'm not sure I agree 100% here. The Dimensional Anchor had to be negated in case V tried to put her back in a force cube or resilient sphere. With a DA in place, she'd be forced to expend more power points on a psionic disintegrate instead of the cheaper dimension door. This is in line with V's overall strategy to attrit her power points.

Now, why she used a disintegrate on the resilient sphere instead of a dimension dooris a mystery, but I am betting it's because V frustrated her into losing her cool. Which might have been V's secondary goal.

Overall it was a great strategy. V got her on the defensive and quickly forced her into a position where all she could do was react.

Amphiox

2013-12-20, 05:00 PM

jere7my

2013-12-20, 05:00 PM

I don't agree. I think Tarquin was being brusque, but also simply didn't know V's gender. Tarquin has demonstrated enough intelligence to be aware that "they" is grammatically incorrect to refer to one person, so went with "it" instead. I'm not arguing that Tarquin does respect V. Just that casual usage of "it" doesn't really indicate respect one way or the other in this context.

I think a person of ambiguous gender would almost certainly interpret "it" as disrespectful, however "it" was intended.

Emanick

2013-12-20, 05:02 PM

I actually don't "it" referred to anything in particular, neither V nor the airship. It's probably a just neutral part of the idiom. Like "digging it" "getting on with it", "rolling with it". Ie "it" is just the overall situation at hand.

Yeah, that was my interpretation as well. There's no need to assume Tarquin intended it as a personal pronoun at all, IMO.

Snails

2013-12-20, 05:03 PM

There is a tactical disadvantage to DDoor at these higher levels, because you can take no actions until your next turn. For Laurin, the loss of Immediate actions could matter quite a bit, since she presumably has multiple powers than can be augmented to Immediate.

I like the idea that Laurin is starting to lose her cool, but a reasonable argument could be made that DDoor was the mistake.

She absolutely has to ditch the Dimensional Anchor, with the vampire still on the loose.

Taelas

2013-12-20, 05:09 PM

I don't agree. I think Tarquin was being brusque, but also simply didn't know V's gender. Tarquin has demonstrated enough intelligence to be aware that "they" is grammatically incorrect to refer to one person, so went with "it" instead. I'm not arguing that Tarquin does respect V. Just that casual usage of "it" doesn't really indicate respect one way or the other in this context.

Singular 'they' is not grammatically incorrect when used to refer to a single person of unspecified gender.

Of course, Tarquin might not know that.

Snails

2013-12-20, 05:23 PM

When I read "Just nova it already" I assumed "it" referred to the duel itself. Tarquin is simply annoyed that this is lasting more than two rounds.

Skorj

2013-12-20, 05:34 PM

Singular 'they' is not grammatically incorrect when used to refer to a single person of unspecified gender.

Of course, Tarquin might not know that.

Depends on your culture. In mine, "he" refers to both a known singular male, and to a single person of unspecified gender. When I was in school, that was the only usage appropriate for formal English prose, though the (to me, sloppy) "they" form is now just as good in formal writing.

However, that wasn't the point. If you're trying to speak clearly and unambiguously (as I suspect Tarquin would even in the heat of battle), you don't always follow the rules of good prose, you instead chose words that won't be misinterpreted. (This is why "standardese" and "legalese" are such bad prose, even when not cluttered with technical jargon).

Further, we all know that if the Giant had had Tarquin say "he" or "she", there would be no end to the new "V's gender revealed" threads, so IMO to spare us from that unwelcome fate Tarquin says "it".

Sky_Schemer

2013-12-20, 05:38 PM

She absolutely has to ditch the Dimensional Anchor, with the vampire still on the loose.

This is a really good point.

Nightsbridge

2013-12-20, 05:50 PM

If Tarquin had said, "Just nova them already," we'd all have thought he meant everyone on the ship, not just V.

While some people use "they"/"them" as a singular non-gender-specific pronoun when the number is clear in context, it doesn't work when trying to speciify an individual instead of a crowd.

It is clear in context, though. Tarquin already specified that he was talking about the elf earlier in the speech bubble.

gosh

2013-12-20, 05:55 PM

It is clear in context, though. Tarquin already specified that he was talking about the elf earlier in the speech bubble.

Agreed - "the elf isn't important!" clearly denotes that Tarquin was talking about the elf, whether or not he says "just nova them" or "just nova it."

Skorj

2013-12-20, 06:00 PM

Agreed - "the elf isn't important!" clearly denotes that Tarquin was talking about the elf, whether or not he says "just nova them" or "just nova it."

Wait, what? "The elf isn't important, just nova them" seems to me to clearly say "ignore the elf, nova the rest". Was that that what you meant? :smallconfused:

SaintRidley

2013-12-20, 06:26 PM

Depends on your culture. In mine, "he" refers to both a known singular male, and to a single person of unspecified gender. When I was in school, that was the only usage appropriate for formal English prose, though the (to me, sloppy) "they" form is now just as good in formal writing.

As an aside, this (http://saintridley.kinja.com/lets-talk-about-the-history-of-gender-and-pronouns-an-1365242291) (shameless self-plug) is a pretty good exploration of singular they. Short version - the plural in the third person pronouns behaves very much like its own grammatical gender.

Ramza00

2013-12-20, 07:05 PM

Considering she spent almost all her actions negating everything Vaarsuvius did--including dispelling Dimensional Anchor, which wouldn't have hurt her unless she was already planning to retreat--I'd say, no, she did that because her ego demands Vaarsuvius' magic never touch her. She only fled at the end because she realized that she couldn't run Vaarsuvius out of spells first--and if she didn't feel a need to block every single one of Vaarsuvius' spells at the expense of attacking, the logical response to what Vaarsuvius said would have been, "Then it's a pity you won't be alive that long! [silent casting of Disintegrate]"

Agreed either caster should have readied an action to start casting an offensive damage power as soon as the other caster started to cast. If the damage spell does 50 damage the caster takes 50 damage and must make a concentration check of 60 or lose the spell. Thus in a 1 v 1 caster duel you effectively stun lock your concentration.

Benthesquid

2013-12-20, 07:18 PM

Snails

2013-12-20, 07:50 PM

Agreed either caster should have readied an action to start casting an offensive damage power as soon as the other caster started to cast. If the damage spell does 50 damage the caster takes 50 damage and must make a concentration check of 60 or lose the spell. Thus in a 1 v 1 caster duel you effectively stun lock your concentration.

That sound very clever, until I pull out a wand to plink you. You just lost your readied action and took damage.

At these high levels we could also have quickened actions.

This all becomes rather annoying to adjudicate, and downright painful to read in a web comic.

In a normal campaign, 1 v 1 duels happen approximately never. These pseudolocks do not show up because the other heroes are doing there thing.

And then we get to...

But then they both do this, and the duel consists of V and Laurin glaring at each other for ninety-two rounds.

Laurin cannot be certain that Tarquin can get back in the fight and swing the battle in decisively their favor before the vampire reappears and eats her.

Ramza00

2013-12-21, 08:19 AM

That sound very clever, until I pull out a wand to plink you. You just lost your readied action and took damage.

At these high levels we could also have quickened actions.

This all becomes rather annoying to adjudicate, and downright painful to read in a web comic.

That is also why ever psion takes the power synchronicity as well.

DaggerPen

2013-12-21, 08:51 AM

I actually don't "it" referred to anything in particular, neither V nor the airship. It's probably a just neutral part of the idiom. Like "digging it" "getting on with it", "rolling with it". Ie "it" is just the overall situation at hand.

That's how I read it. I wouldn't exactly put it past Tarquin to refer to V as "it," but if Tarquin had interpreted V strongly as a particular gender, I'd still be surprised to see him say, for example, "Damn it, Shattersmith, the elf isn't important! Just nova her already!" "Just nova it" is there with stuff like "just eyeball it," "just do it," etc.

Jay R

2013-12-21, 11:18 AM

I think that there's a meta-reason.

Tarquin has a Ring of True Seeing. If he mentions Vaarsuvius's gender, it will be correct, and the Giant doesn't want to give it away.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-21, 11:24 AM

I think that there's a meta-reason.

Tarquin has a Ring of True Seeing. If he mentions Vaarsuvius's gender, it will be correct, and the Giant doesn't want to give it away.
True seeing doesn't reveal sex. The closest thing it does is reveal the true forms of shape-shifters. If V had polymorphed into a male badger, true seeing would show her as she is: an androgynous elf.

orrion

2013-12-21, 01:02 PM

I think that there's a meta-reason.

Tarquin has a Ring of True Seeing. If he mentions Vaarsuvius's gender, it will be correct, and the Giant doesn't want to give it away.

Uh, True Seeing pierces through illusions, polymorphs, invisibility, etc.

V isn't disguised in any way, so Tarquin wouldn't see anything.

Moreover, Durkon has already cast True Seeing several times with Vaarsuvius in the the vicinity.

137beth

2013-12-21, 01:31 PM

So wait, Tarquin derailed a thread by getting people to argue about pronoun usage?
You know what this means:
Tarquin is David Argal!

Aasimar

2013-12-21, 01:34 PM

That would make sense if V's gender were readily obvious but a magical effect were disguising them as androgynous.

True seeing doesn't help against mundane disguises or things just genuinely being a bit ineffable.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-21, 01:34 PM

Ward.

2013-12-21, 01:35 PM

I just want to say that if anyone could pick v's gender it would be tarquin.

As of right now we don't know what happened to shattersmith, she could have disengaged to reset initiative order, pull infinite power tricks, grab some allies (doesn't matter if she's low on pp, if an epic assasain + warrior show up the order is gone) or just to save tarquins ass so that he could deal with enemy casters.

Sylthia

2013-12-21, 01:36 PM

I actually don't "it" referred to anything in particular, neither V nor the airship. It's probably a just neutral part of the idiom. Like "digging it" "getting on with it", "rolling with it". Ie "it" is just the overall situation at hand.

That's how I inferred it upon reading it the first time. Another interpretation didn't occur to me until reading this thread.

Kish

2013-12-21, 01:52 PM

I just want to say that if anyone could pick v's gender it would be tarquin.
I just want to say that if anyone would assume Vaarsuvius' gender based on shallow stereotypes ("She's a woman! Men like big swords!" "He's a man! Men like explosions!") rather than anything valid, it would be Tarquin.

AlaskaOOTSFan

2013-12-21, 02:10 PM

I'd like to see an example of a Psion "Novaing" effectively

Psteve from SSaDT in his brief appearance.

Sylthia

2013-12-21, 02:16 PM

BadAndyMk3

2013-12-21, 02:20 PM

I had thought "it" referred to the situation. Like just blow up as many people and things as she could and they'll go from there.

SlashDash

2013-12-21, 02:57 PM

The things about counterspelling is that neither side is really doing anything. I didn't damage you, you didn't damage me.

In both previous occasions when V went counterspelling, she had an archer to inflict damage for her. So he\she was countering Samantha \ Zdirt while Haley\Kobolod was shooting arrows.
In this instance, there would be little point as nobody would inflict the damage.

Nightsbridge

2013-12-21, 03:03 PM

You know, looking back, I do think that 'it' is probably just a nonsense noun that's required by sentence structure to exist. Just like when you say 'it is raining,' there isn't actually an 'it' involved. Maybe Tarquin is just saying 'nova!' And expecting all problems to dissolve away.

Skorj

2013-12-21, 03:10 PM

I just want to say that if anyone would assume Vaarsuvius' gender based on shallow stereotypes ("She's a woman! Men like big swords!" "He's a man! Men like explosions!") rather than anything valid, it would be Tarquin.

Which is why IMO he calls V "it" and underestimates her - he has nothing but disdain for people and events that don't fit his mental model.

pendell

2013-12-21, 03:28 PM

What I took from the conversation was that Tarquin was referring to Vaarsuvius as an 'it', and that had nothing to do with gender. It has to do with Tarquin doesn't consider elves to be human -- some kind of exotic beast, like the pegasus or what not he ate at his dinner. To him, perhaps, it doesn't matter whether you're intelligent or what not -- only whether you're human.

If so, what about his best friend Malack or the catgirl assassin? Well, that doesn't mean he's not a speciesist, it just means he can make exceptions for people in his immediate circle. to him, Malack is Malack, not a lizardman. It's the same sort of deal as the 'some of my best friends are [deleted]' kind of bigot , who likes individual people but can't stand them in the abstract. I've known people like that in real life.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

SowZ

2013-12-21, 04:15 PM

If I said, 'just rocket it' in an FPS, you'd probably assume the it in question was a rocket. It's a common colloquialism. The direct object here could be the battle itself.

Porthos

2013-12-21, 04:31 PM

Now you see, when I read the comic, I took 'it' to mean 'the situatiuon'. Analogous to the phrase 'Deal with it'. It didn't occur to me that Tarquin was making a commentary about V specifically. :smallwink:

Reddish Mage

2013-12-21, 04:43 PM

Laurin already went nova once, when she used her lockdown power on the entire party in 928.

It's not quite to Psteve's level, but you can see that she's under some strain to do it. Using more psionic points than is wise.

Nova seems to suggest removing the problem through the impressively augmented use of powers in a round or two. Psteve looks like he used multiple powers or a really augmented blast power. Laurin's use of a single lockdown power might not have required augmenting, as it is apparently a homebrewed power.

Either way I am fishing for technical examples not in comic instances (SSNDT counts as in comic sort of).

ReaderAt2046

2013-12-21, 05:15 PM

I think a person of ambiguous gender would almost certainly interpret "it" as disrespectful, however "it" was intended.

Not necessarily. The hermaphrodites in the Vorkosigan Saga specifically prefer "it" as a pronoun.

sam79

2013-12-22, 04:58 AM

On reading the comic for the first time, I thought Tarquin was using 'it' to refer to V, either out of ignorance of her gender, a lack of respect for someone he's just stated is unimportant, or both.

Re-reading the strip in the light of this thread, I still think this, though I can see why people would read 'nova it' as 'deal with it'.

I also assumed nova was a specific, high-level power/spell, until I read this thread. So I'm learning lots today.

ithildur

2013-12-22, 05:48 AM

'It' refering to V seems like a stretch; aside from wording-wise being the least likely/most convoluted interpretation, Tarkin would have to be going out of his way to be unusually crude, rather out of character. He's certainly a bastard, but he's more refined than that usually, to the point where even in the heat of a tense moment where he might be losing his cool it just seems too juvenile for him to refer to V that way.

"Nova it!" "End this thing!" "Finish this now!" "End it now!" etc.

Rather strange to read the above and conclude 'thing' or 'this' would refer to V as well, wouldn't 'it'? Though around here 'it' wouldn't surprise me.

"Nova the Elf!" "Nuke the Wizard!" "Finish off that minion!" seem like more likely choices if Tarkin was trying to communicate such meaning in less than respectful fashion while preserving the mystery of V's gender.

Copperdragon

2013-12-22, 06:52 AM

I consider "Just nova it" to mean two things: First the ship and everyone on it, second the entire situation. "Just get it over with". Tarquin does not care for this specific fight or Vaarsuvius, he wants all of this to be over with a win of his team.

Tarquin basically wants to end the fight with a flamethrower and a rocketlauncher, he wants his enemies dead, the ship grounded and Elan crippled. He's asking his caster to speed that all up by whipping out the biggest guns possible.

jere7my

2013-12-22, 12:25 PM

'It' refering to V seems like a stretch; aside from wording-wise being the least likely/most convoluted interpretation

Why convoluted? If he'd said, "Stop playing with your spaghetti. Just eat it so we can get out of here," what's the most likely referent for "it"?

jere7my

2013-12-22, 12:36 PM

Not necessarily. The hermaphrodites in the Vorkosigan Saga specifically prefer "it" as a pronoun.

Characters in a book do not provide good evidence of how real people will react, especially when the author is not a member of the minority under discussion. There are {insert minority here}s in books who don't mind being called {insert slur here}; that doesn't mean a lot in the real world.

The word "it" is used to dehumanize intersexed and trans people in the real world all the time. I have no issues with Tarquin using it, as he's an ass, but we in the real world shouldn't.

Gnoman

2013-12-22, 12:58 PM

Laurin already went nova once, when she used her lockdown power on the entire party in 928.

That's not a nova. A "nova" in D&D terms is spamming all of your most powerful limited-use abilities in one battle with no consideration for efficiency ar later tactical utility. For wizards, this would be using every 9th level spell you have. If there are still targets, use every 8th level spell, then 7th, 6th etc. For psionics, it would be using very powerful powers until you're at 0 PP.

SowZ

2013-12-22, 01:10 PM

Characters in a book do not provide good evidence of how real people will react, especially when the author is not a member of the minority under discussion. There are {insert minority here}s in books who don't mind being called {insert slur here}; that doesn't mean a lot in the real world.

The word "it" is used to dehumanize intersexed and trans people in the real world all the time. I have no issues with Tarquin using it, as he's an ass, but we in the real world shouldn't.

I don't think Tarquin was being prejudiced there, but anyway. Yeah, it is a bad thing to call any person. Unfortunately, we don't have many options. I know of people who ask others to refer to them with gender neutral pronouns. But unless you call someone they, which sounds really weird, what can you do? Always use their name in any reference to them?

Keltest

2013-12-22, 01:13 PM

I don't think Tarquin was being prejudiced there, but anyway. Yeah, it is a bad thing to call any person. Unfortunately, we don't have many options. I know of people who ask others to refer to them with gender neutral pronouns. But unless you call someone they, which sounds really weird, what can you do? Always use their name in any reference to them?

Given the context, i believe his usage of "it" was, if not appropriate, at least the clearest way he could say what he was trying to say. Of team Tarquin, he was the only one who had any way of knowing the names of the members of the order, and "them" is typically plural in usage, so "nova them" could easily be interpreted as "kill everyone on the ship" which is not what Tarquin wanted.

Runeclaw

2013-12-22, 01:51 PM

including dispelling Dimensional Anchor, which wouldn't have hurt her unless she was already planning to retreat

That's exactly why it's such a threat. Casting Dimensional Anchor on your enemy is a pretty clear way of saying "I intend to kill you in this conflict, and I don't want you escaping."

Especially to someone like Laurin, for whom mobility seems to be a speciality, that's something you don't want to ignore if the threat seems at all serious. Xykon laughed it off when V did it to him, but Laurin is not as certain of her superiority as Xykon was.

Put another way, knowing that you're only a standard action from safety lets you take risks that, without that security, you would not. Laurin was not confident enough about her safety to remain onboard while Dimensionally Anchored. Dispelling it was necessary. And V knew it, and thus was able to further drain Laurin of power points without using up one of her actual attack spells.

Liliet

2013-12-22, 01:57 PM

I'm not a native speaker, so I might miss some context, but I've at least been hanging around this forum for a while, and I read Tarquin's sentence as referring to the situation as a whole. "Nova this stupid fight so we win the day already!" It might have to do with me thinking of "nova" not as an action that has a specific object (as in "put it down") but as a generic action that only requires any object due to the oddities of English language (as in "it's raining"). "Just nova already" doesn't flow nearly as good, and the rhythm means a lot in establishing impressions.

Until I came across this discussion, the thought of "it" referring to V didn't even cross my mind. Tarquin has already dismissed V as a threat, why would he ask Laurin to waste her resources on vir specifically?

And am I using the term correctly when I'm saying that Laurin has already gone nova today? I'm referring to multiple Wormholes that seemed to cost her a lot of pp, essentially making the difference of who won today and proving why nova is a very situationally useful tactic that should not be employed as the first resort.

BroomGuys

2013-12-22, 02:19 PM

Until I came across this discussion, the thought of "it" referring to V didn't even cross my mind. Tarquin has already dismissed V as a threat, why would he ask Laurin to waste her resources on vir specifically?

I'd guess he assumes Laurin should be able to smoke V quickly with a "nova" because (Tarquin thinks) V isn't an important part of the story. He thought ordering his soldiers to kill Roy in the crater would just be a quick "tragic execution scene" instead of a climactic battle for similar reasons.

And am I using the term correctly when I'm saying that Laurin has already gone nova today? I'm referring to multiple Wormholes that seemed to cost her a lot of pp, essentially making the difference of who won today and proving why nova is a very situationally useful tactic that should not be employed as the first resort.

I dunno about the term, but I'll point out that since the OotS were just trying to get away, it kind of made it a taller order for Tarkie, Myron, and Laurin to thwart them. I assume it's much easier to defeat an opponent when their objective is to kill you than when their objective is to run away.

Liliet

2013-12-22, 03:08 PM

There were also other crew members present on deck, constituting at least some threat, as Bandana so aptly demonstrated. Their reason for not intervening is this being a third-act duel, but Tarquin doesn't recognize it as such. As soon as Laurin smokes V she has to deal with the rest, and if she's battlefield control focused, which she seems to be, her more effective tactics would quite probably be to deal with everyone present simultaneously. Her nova is, I think, not fighting one opponent, but turning the tide of the whole battle.

Does she even have powers other than Disintegrate that deal direct damage? She didn't seem to use any.

I've built a Pathfinder Sorcerer for fun who has not a single direct damage spell, the closest being Gust of Wind knocking down birds. I have no idea how she would actually play out, but from reading the descriptions and playing out possible encounters in the mind, the selection of spells seems pretty sweet and all-purpose - well, all-purpose enough for the pacifist who doesn't want people to fight each other at all (but is regularly thrown in the situations when they do). And that's with a self-imposed handicap of no mind control past inflicting conditions like dazed and sleeping 'cause it's eeeevil and creepy.

From what I know about 3.5 power creep, a psion should have a ton of possibilities open up after discarding direct damage dealing. Given that they have another arcane caster as a primary attack force and she can teleport out of any really bad situation, that seems like something that would make sense.

Sir_Leorik

2013-12-22, 03:17 PM

So wait, Tarquin derailed a thread by getting people to argue about pronoun usage?
You know what this means:
Tarquin is David Argal!

Conversely, David Argal is Tarquin, come through the Fourth Wall to torment us all!

Mind. Blown! :smalleek:

There were also other crew members present on deck, constituting at least some threat, as Bandana so aptly demonstrated. Their reason for not intervening is this being a third-act duel, but Tarquin doesn't recognize it as such. As soon as Laurin smokes V she has to deal with the rest, and if she's battlefield control focused, which she seems to be, her more effective tactics would quite probably be to deal with everyone present simultaneously. Her nova is, I think, not fighting one opponent, but turning the tide of the whole battle.

But that's not a "nova". That's a "controller", locking down targets, and keeping them from getting involved. Since Tarquin is demanding she go nova, it indicates that he's seen her do so before.

Liliet

2013-12-22, 03:29 PM

But that's not a "nova". That's a "controller", locking down targets, and keeping them from getting involved. Since Tarquin is demanding she go nova, it indicates that he's seen her do so before.The definition of "nova" I know is expending the whole bulk of daily resources in one fight/attack/action without caring about what you are going to do later (enjoy the victory). It doesn't include specifying that the resources must be spent on dealing direct damage. Am I wrong? Does it?

rodneyAnonymous

2013-12-22, 07:25 PM

Yes: The phrase "go nova" refers to trying to kill something, usually with damage.

Snails

2013-12-22, 10:37 PM

"Go nova" means maximum possible offense, whatever the cost in resources. That does not absolutely require anyone to die, but it is implied that the available target(s) will be utterly neutralized. That pretty much requires death or petrification or similar.

Ward.

2013-12-23, 04:18 PM

Munchkinery aside, Tarquin has already used his most powerful allies in Laurin, Miron, and Malack.

Power is relative to effectiveness in the situation, a second epic fighter or assasain at this point would let tarquin go all out without having to defend his casters while being a legitimate threat to the entire order.

Aasimar

2013-12-23, 10:06 PM

Whatever, that's just not what's happening here.

What's happening is, Tarquin is running out of allies and options and refusing to deal with reality.

Grey_Wolf_c

2013-12-24, 03:39 AM

Yes: The phrase "go nova" refers to trying to kill something, usually with damage.

It doesn't. It means "expend all your best resources in as short a time as possible". At high levels that does indeed leave a lot of corpses on the floor (future fights be damned!) but at low levels a non-striker nova will probably just make the fight much easier without managing to kill more than one or two targets.

Now, in this case, since Laurin is epic-ish, yes, if she had the points she would nova by pretty much blowing up the ship and everyone in it.

Grey Wolf

chibibar

2013-12-24, 03:04 PM

That's exactly why it's such a threat. Casting Dimensional Anchor on your enemy is a pretty clear way of saying "I intend to kill you in this conflict, and I don't want you escaping."

Especially to someone like Laurin, for whom mobility seems to be a speciality, that's something you don't want to ignore if the threat seems at all serious. Xykon laughed it off when V did it to him, but Laurin is not as certain of her superiority as Xykon was.

Put another way, knowing that you're only a standard action from safety lets you take risks that, without that security, you would not. Laurin was not confident enough about her safety to remain onboard while Dimensionally Anchored. Dispelling it was necessary. And V knew it, and thus was able to further drain Laurin of power points without using up one of her actual attack spells.

To add to this, Xykon's weakness is his phylactery. He will eventually "regenerate" from his body destruction and thus able to take more risk. DA him? ha! he doesn't care.

Laurin is humanoid base (assuming human heh) she doesn't have such assurance. PLUS her contingency may have already kicked in 931. Usually you can only have ONE contingency in place until you cast another (Chain contingency happen in succession) so Laurin always have an escape route just in case. Thus, she cannot afford to be DA.

Keltest

2013-12-24, 03:27 PM

To add to this, Xykon's weakness is his phylactery. He will eventually "regenerate" from his body destruction and thus able to take more risk. DA him? ha! he doesn't care.

Laurin is humanoid base (assuming human heh) she doesn't have such assurance. PLUS her contingency may have already kicked in 931. Usually you can only have ONE contingency in place until you cast another (Chain contingency happen in succession) so Laurin always have an escape route just in case. Thus, she cannot afford to be DA.

At the time, Xykon's phylactery was in the same room as him. If he was losing, grabbing it and teleporting would be a reasonable response.

zimmerwald1915

2013-12-24, 04:17 PM

At the time, Xykon's phylactery was in the same room as him. If he was losing, grabbing it and teleporting would be a reasonable response.
Also, V never landed her dimensional anchor on Xykon.

Keltest

2013-12-24, 04:19 PM

Also, V never landed her dimensional anchor on Xykon.

Well, that too, though I was mostly thinking of the rationale behind a dimensional anchor in the first place.

Liliet

2013-12-26, 12:01 PM

It doesn't. It means "expend all your best resources in as short a time as possible". At high levels that does indeed leave a lot of corpses on the floor (future fights be damned!) but at low levels a non-striker nova will probably just make the fight much easier without managing to kill more than one or two targets.

Now, in this case, since Laurin is epic-ish, yes, if she had the points she would nova by pretty much blowing up the ship and everyone in it.

Grey Wolf

So... with at least one person agreeing to my definition, it's officially questionable and open to interpretation. With enough tweaking, I just officially won an internet argument. Because that's how logic in internet arguments works.

That said, is it that impossible to build a high-level caster without powerful offense? I know I did build a sorcerer like that for fun (she's a pacifist), the only spell that deals damage was Gust of Wind (it deals damage to Tiny flying creatures), and there's a lot of awesome in her spell list. To her, go nova would mean spamming area effects like Grease and Entangle, mild mind manipulation like Sleep and Hideous Laughter and so on.

(that's pretty relevant to me, I'm interested in chances of a pacifistic character's survival in DnD and how idiotic that sounds to the experienced players... assuming a DM isn't a railroading jerk who wants the players to KILL KILL KILL and takes pacifistic solutions as personal offense, is it realistic to play a typical campaign with a caster like that?)

Returning to Laurin, I understand why she would take time to dispel Anchor. Not even counting spells like Forcecage, she's on a hostile airship in the middle of the desert. Really not the best time to be locked in one place.

Doug Lampert

2013-12-26, 01:14 PM

So... with at least one person agreeing to my definition, it's officially questionable and open to interpretation. With enough tweaking, I just officially won an internet argument. Because that's how logic in internet arguments works.

I'll add another data point: I'm in firm agreement that "Go Nova" or "Alpha Strike" both mean "commit maximum resources to attack with no reserve" and do not specify direct damage powers.

Now, it is clearly likely that a random caster type in D&D will do lots of damage in a nova, but for a psion like Laurin it means something like "chain power your attack on V to also kill the crew, then use your move action (and Psionic Meditation) to recover focus, then burn that focus for a quickened power to attack. Then keep quickening powers in future rounds. You won't need those PP for anything else and it won't matter that you're dimensionally anchored with no focus available, ignore that sort of distraction."

Laurin for some reason is unwilling to do so, possibly due to a combination of "not totally insane" and "wants to live more than she wants to win this one".

Liliet

2013-12-26, 01:19 PM

I'll add another data point: I'm in firm agreement that "Go Nova" or "Alpha Strike" both mean "commit maximum resources to attack with no reserve" and do not specify direct damage powers.

Now, it is clearly likely that a random caster type in D&D will do lots of damage in a nova, but for a psion like Laurin it means something like "chain power your attack on V to also kill the crew, then use your move action (and Psionic Meditation) to recover focus, then burn that focus for a quickened power to attack. Then keep quickening powers in future rounds. You won't need those PP for anything else and it won't matter that you're dimensionally anchored, ignore that sort of distraction."

Laurin for some reason is unwilling to do so, possibly due to a combination of "not totally insane" and "want's to live more than she wants to win this one".
I'd say the reason is "her remaining PP are insufficient for ensuring the victory beyond reasonable doubt that way so she prefers to play it safe". As I understand DnD tactics, nova is for the overwhelming victories when you are sure you can destroy the opponent so thoroughly they won't be any threat at all by the moment you are out of resources, and, of course, you also don't expect any encounters for the rest of the day. The latter is given, this being late evening in the middle of their empire and all, but the former is questionable.

I guess Tarquin just failed his "knowledge: psion's power points" or "spot high level powers being used" check. Or both.

Kish

2013-12-26, 01:50 PM

I guess Tarquin just failed his "knowledge: psion's power points" or "spot high level powers being used" check. Or both.
Or just figured that if a mere mentor's companion wasn't dead yet, Laurin must not be really trying.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-12-26, 02:40 PM

I said "attack, often damage". Not necessarily damage, but yes necessarily offense (plus the resource use stuff nobody disputes). Doug and I agree.

Liliet

2013-12-26, 05:23 PM

I said "attack, often damage". Not necessarily damage, but yes necessarily offense (plus the resource use stuff nobody disputes). Doug and I agree.

Does using Wormholes to pursue the allosaurus qualify as offence?

rodneyAnonymous

2013-12-26, 08:03 PM

No, I don't think so. A wormhole is not an attack.

Liliet

2013-12-26, 08:30 PM

No, I don't think so. A wormhole is not an attack.

It's not a damage-dealing direct attack, but it's a crucial part of offensive tactics.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-12-26, 08:31 PM

Doug Lampert

2013-12-26, 09:43 PM

Ok yeah but it's not an attack spell. I guess a wormhole might be part of a "nova attack" but that's despite its presence, not because of it. That's like calling pants a weapon because they're a crucial part of a soldier's gear.

"Go nova" means "commit maximum resources to attack with no reserve" not "commit maximum resources to whatever with no reserve".

Laurin casting a bunch of wormholes might fit Sabine's "break out the big guns early and often" but it does not fit Tarquin's "just nova it already".

I've definitely seen group transportation spells as a big part of an alpha, if you can get everyone else into position to attack then that is an attack spell, and often your most effective attack spell. Mass fly or airwalk + DD or teleport to get the group to where they can attack and not falling is sometimes golden.

It's a spell aimed at getting the enemy dead, it's an attack.

I'd say the clear proof that the wormholes themselves weren't actually an alpha is that she WASN'T also quickening powers. The chances of a high level psion not having both quicken power and psionic meditation are only slightly greater than the chances of a level 9+ druid not having Natural Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html).

[Hint: You presumably took Psion largely because it's the caster class with the best nova. It's otherwise fairly weak for a full caster actually. Those two feats enable the Psi-nova.]

I'll go with "big guns, but not an alpha", but it's not an alpha because she's not quickening, not because she's not attacking. Transport is sometimes a form of attack and "big guns" is another term usually applied to attack actions. Using it seems to me to implicitly accept that the wormholes were an attack on the order.

Had Laurin been in a full nova she'd presumably have stopped the allosaur with quickened disintegrates (or something else) during all those wormholes, but doing so would have required wasting so many PP that she'd have been close to dry by the time she stopped it, she didn't consider it worth that, so she was reserving power, and if you're reserving power you are not pulling an alpha strike.

Liliet

2013-12-27, 04:28 AM

Rodin

2013-12-27, 04:52 AM

Attack _of_the_group_, not attack of the spellcaster. Team Tarquin was attacking, which manifested itself as Laurin casting Wormholes, Miron casting Baleful Polymorph, and their mount attacking Roy.

Nova as opposed to not-nova is, as far as I understand, a conscious decision on part of the spellcaster to commit maximum resources to winning the encounter when they are the one pressing. It's not nova when you are on the defensive, and it's not nova when there's no combat situation at all. If you are on the offensive, and you waste resources left and right like there's no tomorrow, it's nova.

By your definition, would a series of stun spells that put everyone on the ship save L&T into coma for several minutes and drain all Laurin's remaining pp save for the last Teleport back, qualify as nova?

Powerful stun spells to allow you to coup-de-grace the enemy - absolutely.

Wormholing repeatedly is still just movement though, not delivering an alpha strike. As an example from a different genre, burning all your afterburners to catch up to another craft isn't alpha-striking, while firing all your missiles simultaneously at that same craft is. It's using as many of your available offensive weapons to destroy/disable the opponent simultaneously as you can, not spending resources chasing after them to fight them conventionally (which is what happened earlier in the fight).

Liliet

2013-12-27, 09:17 AM

We're not talking about the alpha strike though, we are talking about nova, and it's explicitly about using _resources_. Casters don't even have weapons.

Edhelras

2013-12-27, 11:50 AM

I'd say, no, she did that because her ego demands Vaarsuvius' magic never touch her.

There's a reason she's wearing that pristine white dress. She's clean, she's untouchable, undefilable. No wizard s**t shall touch her.

Liliet

2013-12-27, 04:50 PM

There's a reason she's wearing that pristine white dress. She's clean, she's untouchable, undefilable. No wizard s**t shall touch her.

Except she already has a daughter :smallwink:

I still think she had a good reason to dispel that DA, and it paid off in the end, too.

Nightsbridge

2013-12-28, 06:39 AM

Yeah. When she wanted to retreat, she had the option to. This isn't a OCD dispel just to clean taint off her, it served a tactical purpose that she was willing to exploit. We know this because . . . Well, she ported outta there. I'm still not sure where this 'cleanse the wizard taint' idea came from. She needed to get out of the force cage and RS because she couldn't do anything inside them. She wanted to block the cone of cold because being frozen alive where you stand is probably painful and people like to avoid pain. She needed to get rid of DA because she wanted the option get away. How is that a psychological flaw?

Dracon1us

2013-12-28, 06:59 AM

Except she already has a daughter :smallwink:

I still think she had a good reason to dispel that DA, and it paid off in the end, too.

yeah
I liked how the Giant is portraying the fighting style of TT
they are strong, epic, and that's because they care to...survive
because they have too much to live for...and they are in for the money

(like most of true life villains...at the end they are petty people. no big dreams excepts for money and the power to make other's people life miserable)

an "all out" fight would be more fun...but boring after a while. that's Xykon style (hammer to the face), not TT's style.

Kish

2013-12-28, 07:02 AM

I'm still not sure where this 'cleanse the wizard taint' idea came from. She needed to get out of the force cage and RS because she couldn't do anything inside them. She wanted to block the cone of cold because being frozen alive where you stand is probably painful and people like to avoid pain. She needed to get rid of DA because she wanted the option get away. How is that a psychological flaw?
Bolded part: I think going into a battle with the strategy "I'll run away if it's that or get hurt" is a psychological flaw, m'self.

Or to put it another way:

:vaarsuvius: You'll run out of spells before I do.
:laurin: But you'll run out of high-level spells before I run out of blocks. I guess, as I'm disintegrating you, I'll have to eat a couple Magic Missiles and maybe a Scorching Ray.
:vaarsuvius: Crap!

:vaarsuvius: You'll run out of spells before I do.
:laurin: Crap!

Nightsbridge

2013-12-28, 07:59 AM

I'm sure Tarquin would agree with you, but Laurin has no stake in this fight. She has no investment in it except a favor that she came up with off-the-cuff that she may have already earned. In my mind, a wiliness to retreat at the promise of pain and maybe death if you stretch the fight out longer to win and raise the potential for bad things to happen, like maybe the prone rogue getting up and deciding she doesn't care about third act duels. And lose nothing as a consequence except a potential favor that you can live without is just clearheaded thinking, not a psychological flaw.

I'm sure if this was about The Plan or her daughter's safety, Laurin might find herself more willing to endure a few scorching rays. If she can't do it even when it's a REAL problem for her? That's a flaw. But right now I'm not convinced. A list of priorities that differs from the plot-mad warlord isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Yuki Akuma

2013-12-28, 09:31 AM

...Pretty sure no one pointed it out in this thread yet, bizzarely:

You can't counterspell psionics.

Liliet

2013-12-28, 09:41 AM

...Pretty sure no one pointed it out in this thread yet, bizzarely:

You can't counterspell psionics.
I think it was mentioned, and refuted with mention of magic-psionic transparency?...

Yuki Akuma

2013-12-28, 10:08 AM

I remember reading that powers are explicitly spell-like abilities, which can't be counterspelled, but I can't find that anywhere. Huh.

Regardless. The "Psionic Powers Overview" chapter repeats a lot of things in the "Magic Overview" chapter, but conspicuously doesn't mention counterspells.

Dispel Psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm) is also completely missing the "counterspell" text from Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm).

pendell

2013-12-28, 11:07 AM

Nightsbridge

2013-12-28, 11:47 AM

Okay, silly question. I grant that in a battle of attrition the odds are against Laurin, but she only NEEDS one spell to win , right? All you need is one lucky saving throw and V is back in the land of ranch salad or a pile of dust or what not. Why not stick it out until your PPs are critical, THEN port out and take Tarquin with you?

Raises a follow-up question: Why did Laurin leave Tarquin behind?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Because V is not even your primary goal; your primary goal isn't even in sight; presumably below deck, with who knows how many pirates between you and him in addition to a vampire dwarf with a grudge who has no reason to be afraid of your dispel while out of direct sunlight.

Kish

2013-12-28, 11:50 AM

I'm sure Tarquin would agree with you, but Laurin has no stake in this fight. She has no investment in it except a favor that she came up with off-the-cuff that she may have already earned.
If what she was willing to do for the favor was, "Fight, as long as I don't have to get hurt," if I was working as a judge in the OotSverse, and the case of Tarquin and Laurin trying to sort out whether he actually owed her a favor landed on my desk, I would find for Tarquin.

(Then I would sneak out the back door and enter the Witness Protection Program; regardless of which one I'd found for, I'd expect a lifetime of vengeance to be chasing me.)

Nightsbridge

2013-12-28, 12:06 PM

If what she was willing to do for the favor was, "Fight, as long as I don't have to get hurt," if I was working as a judge in the OotSverse, and the case of Tarquin and Laurin trying to sort out whether he actually owed her a favor landed on my desk, I would find for Tarquin.

You're not wrong, I think, though it may depend on what sort of favor Laurin is expecting in return. If it's small and no big deal, then maybe she's expecting him to return something worth the effort she applied. And . . . The deal was that they kill Greenhilt, right? Even if she can defeat V here, even with Tarquin as backup, can she realistically hope to cut through the crowd with her power points even lower after denying V's more extensive damage spells? Through Haley? Through the vampire who doesn't care about her dispel indoors, and THEN kill a rested and recovered Greenhilt? If she doesn't think she can, then favor's already buggered regardless and it's time to cut and run.

pendell

2013-12-28, 06:29 PM

I must disagree with Kish and Nightsbridge.

It's not a question of all or nothing. Laurin did fight for Tarquin but not to the point of risking her own skin. Thus, the laws of favors means that Tarquin owes it to Laurin to exert himself on her behalf, but not to the extent of laying down his own life for hers, or even putting it in serious jeopardy. Since I think it unlikely Tarquin would do so in any case, that's as much a favor as evil folks can either ask or grant from each other. If they were truly self-sacrificing, they wouldn't be evil, would they ? Or at least a different kind of evil, evil like Redcloak rather than evil like Bozzak.

I'm still trying to get my head around why Laurin would abandon Tarquin. Between that and Myron's contingency spell, it doesn't look to me as if the bonds of loyalty run terribly deep in TT, and they put a high premium on their own survival.

I'm guessing Tarquin , being Batman, has some kind of insta-teleport-to-escape contingency or item with which he can get out of trouble. Why not? Everyone else on TT seems to have one. And the only reason *I* can think why they would abandon each other is if this was standard procedure. I certainly can't imagine a team which has survived all this time together making it a practice to leave each other to die if it can be helped at all.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

rodneyAnonymous

2013-12-28, 06:33 PM

Pretty sure the favor to Tarquin was to participate in the fight, not finish it (or otherwise achieve some specific outcome). Both Miron and Laurin did that, and earnestly IMO.

orrion

2013-12-28, 07:59 PM

Pretty sure the favor to Tarquin was to participate in the fight, not finish it (or otherwise achieve some specific outcome). Both Miron and Laurin did that, and earnestly IMO.

Tarquin's goal was to kill Roy - and now it seems his goal to kill everyone except Elan - and nobody has died yet. He's just as far from his goal being accomplished as he was before they helped.

CrispyCriminal

2013-12-28, 10:25 PM

Tarquin's goal was to kill Roy - and now it seems his goal to kill everyone except Elan - and nobody has died yet. He's just as far from his goal being accomplished as he was before they helped.

I believe that is the heart of the matter actually. Moving goal posts don't make for great incentive to acquire a favor. A large chunk of her PP was spent to achieve the goal of eliminating Roy, and while she did drain quite a bit, he's still alive. An order to destroy the ship is beyond what her PP would allow by nova'ing it. Maybe wormholing the ship into the sand could work, assuming the size of the wormhole isn't burdened by PP costs. But even then, that would require an escape plan that she may not be able to achieve while channeling that wormhole, splitting it in half won't save her if she can't get to Tarquin either.

Maybe if Malack was around she'd be more inclined to finish this, not just because of a source of healing being present but also her view on Tarquin's determination for Narrative Balance wouldn't be as jaded if Malack was still around.