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Red_Death01
2013-12-19, 11:12 PM
So for a character I have in the works I'm planning on him being a liberated slave. The discussion I have had with my DM seems promising but, we were a little stump'd on some effected stats and how they would play out on a ex-slave.

What would you guys personally think being a slave would give you?

For example:
-2 INT
-2 WIS
-4 CHA
+Endurance Feat

I'm interested in knowing some of your guy's opinions. I'm obviously thinking that being a slave would literally be a flat negative (possibly you get a free endurance- woohoo...). I'm asking as I have been personally been known to powergame and having a self-inflicted penalty on this character idea would be both justifiable and give my character an obvious exploitable weakness.

jedipilot24
2013-12-19, 11:19 PM
So for a character I have in the works I'm planning on him being a liberated slave. The discussion I have had with my DM seems promising but, we were a little stump'd on some effected stats and how they would play out on a ex-slave.

What would you guys personally think being a slave would give you?

For example:
-2 INT
-2 WIS
-4 CHA
+Endurance Feat

I'm interested in knowing some of your guy's opinions. I'm obviously thinking that being a slave would literally be a flat negative (possibly you get a free endurance- woohoo...). I'm asking as I have been personally been known to powergame and having a self-inflicted penalty on this character idea would be both justifiable and give my character an obvious exploitable weakness.

Well first what kind of slave?
Forced laborer?
Galley oarsman?
Gladiator?
Prostitute?

I would probably make it some kind of homebrew flaw.

Demidos
2013-12-19, 11:25 PM
Might actually nix the wisdom hit, seeing as you need to be street-smart enough to survive. Though as above mentioned, depends on the kind.

Red_Death01
2013-12-19, 11:29 PM
It would be a slave forced to fight. So- Warrior-ish? The exact word escapes me. Possibly even a gladiator in a way?

Grod_The_Giant
2013-12-19, 11:50 PM
I probably wouldn't have any sort of template at all. Why do you think it needs to have a mechanical effect on your character?

Red_Death01
2013-12-19, 11:58 PM
I probably wouldn't have any sort of template at all. Why do you think it needs to have a mechanical effect on your character?

If nothing else some general idea on how the stats would look would help me out. (atleast for the int/wis/cha)

Grod_The_Giant
2013-12-20, 12:07 AM
If nothing else some general idea on how the stats would look would help me out. (atleast for the int/wis/cha)
Whatever fits the weighted average of character personality and mechanical requirements, like any other character.

I'd say, at most, you'd be illiterate until you spent skill points on it, and you probably wouldn't have many ranks of Knowledge skills-- but that's only if you're starting right after liberation. If it's been a few years, you're probably fine.

Coidzor
2013-12-20, 12:47 AM
It's a bit too variable, I'd say, for any one set of changes to fit all experiences, and several would likely not call for any changes at all.

That said, if you want to show that someone's body has been broken down from harsh conditions, I'd say that looking at age penalties would be one way to do it.

Say, middle or even old age penalties, without the bonuses, which then stack with the penalties from actually aging up to those categories.

WbtE
2013-12-20, 01:24 AM
It would be a slave forced to fight. So- Warrior-ish? The exact word escapes me. Possibly even a gladiator in a way?

The most famous example of this is the Mamluks, a military caste in some ways similar to knights. If your character had that kind of background, he would be better-educated and wealthier than the ordinary citizen.

SowZ
2013-12-20, 01:28 AM
I don't think being a slave would have any inherent template to it. If you're masters were evil enough to breed you like dogs over a long lone time, you may have slightly higher Con. They could have intentionally weakened your willpower with various substances or poisons over time, too, so I could see an Int or Wis penalty there. But that would be from intentional damage, not as a direct result of being a slave.

Lettuce
2013-12-20, 01:38 AM
I feel like his Will and Fort saves would get a little extra boost. Both are kind of needed to keep surviving in a harsh environment like that, and not to give up and lay down and die from the struggle.

Draconi Redfir
2013-12-20, 01:39 AM
if he was a gladiator then i could see...

either +2 Str or Dex depending on his fighting style, since he's had to fight all his life

a -2 Int since he likely hasn't had any sort of formal educaition

and probably a +2 Con after enduring any beatings/whippings/losses he's had.

TuggyNE
2013-12-20, 03:43 AM
I can't make out why slavery would grant any kind of template or flaw. It does not, in itself, involve any kind of magical or mystical or genetic changes that could justify increased or decreased abilities; all it does is encourage those with certain tendencies to improve upon them, and others to hide their different tendencies or suffer severe punishments. So while you might have lower scores in some areas, particularly mental stats at times, they aren't going to be out of the normal range at all. Just pick, y'know, lower mental scores as appropriate if you want that.

There's also the fact that "slavery" is far too broad a term, since there are all kinds of different slaves, and some were in charge of, say, educating their master's heirs, or overseeing business dealings, or whatever, which are not jobs that encourage stupidity. Instead, "ex-gladiator", perhaps. But that's just a general nitpick.

Specifically for being an ex-gladiator, though, there's no good reason for any stat penalties at all; at most a lack of education, as several have suggested, but there's no particular reason to assume most masters of fighting rings would put any effort into beating down their gladiators' minds, and indeed, since it's usually a performance, Cha would be encouraged.

SowZ
2013-12-20, 02:29 PM
if he was a gladiator then i could see...

either +2 Str or Dex depending on his fighting style, since he's had to fight all his life

a -2 Int since he likely hasn't had any sort of formal educaition

and probably a +2 Con after enduring any beatings/whippings/losses he's had.

Lack of education has nothing to do with Int and is instead represented by the number of skill points your class rewards you with.

Lightlawbliss
2013-12-20, 02:42 PM
I would have to agree with many people so far that it all depends on the kind of slave you were, and many would not justify anything beyond how you manage your stats. With what you are describing, I would have to assume you are talking the american stereotypical slave: effectively an enslaved farmhand. Does being a farmhand give you a template? no. So why should being an enslaved farmhand be any different.

Draconi Redfir
2013-12-20, 06:01 PM
you've got to love the giant ITP homebewing logic sometimes.

"i'm playing an ex-slave and both me and my DM think this should effect his stats a bit but don't know how. what do you think?"

"Don't."


"I want to play a monk in my next game, what's a good build/some homebrew stuff for him?"

"Play an unarmed swordsage instead."


"I'm making a written language for some fluff for my character. What is your opinion on X Y and Z?"

"just make gibberish and it's the same thing."


An alarming tendancy to not actually help the person looking for help unfortionately.

SowZ
2013-12-20, 06:05 PM
you've got to love the giant ITP homebewing logic sometimes.

"i'm playing an ex-slave and both me and my DM think this should effect his stats a bit but don't know how. what do you think?"

"Don't."


"I want to play a monk in my next game, what's a good build/some homebrew stuff for him?"

"Play an unarmed swordsage instead."


"I'm making a written language for some fluff for my character. What is your opinion on X Y and Z?"

"just make gibberish and it's the same thing."


An alarming tendancy to not actually help the person looking for help unfortionately.

This is actually legitimate advice, though. "What stat modifiers would a slave have for being a slave?" "None, any more than saying, 'what modifies my stats being a fisherman?'" What we could advise is how to place your ability scores and what class might be appropriate to that background.

But this just isn't how ability modifiers work. It's how ability score assignment works, maybe.

Sure, being a slave in a coal mine might mean you aren't as social. But you don't get -2 Charisma +2 Constitution for that anymore than saying, "Hey, I'm playing a Ranger/Barbarian that has lived in the woods so long that I rarely interacted with people." would grant you an ability modification. Rather, I would advise the Ranger/Barbarian to put his lowest ability in Charisma and a good score in Con.

TuggyNE
2013-12-20, 07:35 PM
you've got to love the giant ITP homebewing logic sometimes.

"i'm playing an ex-slave and both me and my DM think this should effect his stats a bit but don't know how. what do you think?"

"Don't." "There wouldn't be any such adjustments in general."


"I want to play a monk in my next game, what's a good build/some homebrew stuff for him?"

"Play an unarmed swordsage instead."


"I'm making a written language for some fluff for my character. What is your opinion on X Y and Z?"

"just make gibberish and it's the same thing."


An alarming tendancy to not actually help the person looking for help unfortionately.

Sometimes, the best answer you can give someone asking a particular question is "You are asking the wrong question."

I've never actually seen the bit about language, so I have no idea what to think about that.

Arcanist
2013-12-20, 09:44 PM
"i'm playing an ex-slave and both me and my DM think this should effect his stats a bit but don't know how. what do you think?"

"Don't."

"The question doesn't make any sense, any suggestions that we make can be overturned by the DM because they disagree with them. Ask them how they believe their stats should be? Should they be smarter, stronger? What? Just for being being a slave?"

I'd also be curious what bonuses you get for being a Noble or a Scholar or a Priest or being apart of any other caste, or do Slaves just get bonuses for being Slaves?


"I want to play a monk in my next game, what's a good build/some homebrew stuff for him?"

"Play an unarmed swordsage instead."

Well maybe in the d20 forum. Honestly, in the Homebrew forum it might be recommended to have several fixes used instead.


"I'm making a written language for some fluff for my character. What is your opinion on X Y and Z?"

"just make gibberish and it's the same thing."

What is language, but gibberish that we've assigned meaning to? :smallconfused:

Coidzor
2013-12-20, 10:43 PM
It would be a slave forced to fight. So- Warrior-ish? The exact word escapes me. Possibly even a gladiator in a way?

How cheap is life in this context? Are we talking some horribly dystopian churning machine which grinds people up into giblets? Gladiatoral games where popular and successful gladiators become celebrities in their own right and eventually can get their freedom? Games where fights to the death are rare or only caused by some accident/quirk of fate? Something more along the lines of boxing where people rarely die in the bouts themselves but they can die of complications afterward or just end up degenerating completely as they age?


edit: I could see something like having proficiency with either A. a general set of gladiator weapons and weapons that'd be used for training or B. training weapons and the specific set up of whatever kind of gladiator a character was in exchange for illiteracy and a potential for facing social stigma depending upon the social classes used in the game. Depending upon whether it was supposed to represent a gladiator who became a celebrity and became free from that, I might make it easier for them to be identified and for knowledge rolls to succeed more easily with regards to them.

Considering proficiencies are... proficiencies and you'd be wanting to model a gladiator with some martial classes anyway, at best this would really translate into an exotic weapon proficiency or two and some rejiggering of default starting attitudes and the like, so if put together it could probably just be LA+0, since EWP is basically a trash feat anyway.

MReav
2013-12-20, 11:01 PM
At the very least, in particularly brutal society, I would reduce the Middle Age, Old Age and Venerable by at least half if not more.

Coidzor
2013-12-21, 12:45 AM
At the very least, in particularly brutal society, I would reduce the Middle Age, Old Age and Venerable by at least half if not more.

Hard living ages ya pretty quick, or so they say, yeah...

Draconi Redfir
2013-12-21, 02:20 AM
Sometimes, the best answer you can give someone asking a particular question is "You are asking the wrong question."

I've never actually seen the bit about language, so I have no idea what to think about that.

strange, you would think the best awnser for ANY given question would be... well... the awnser to the freaking question.

how many times has YOUR math teacher marked you correct when you awnsered a question with "But does two WANT to be added with three? We really need to check it's motives here don't you think?"

Arcanist
2013-12-21, 02:51 AM
Sometimes, the best answer you can give someone asking a particular question is "You are asking the wrong question."

I've never actually seen the bit about language, so I have no idea what to think about that.

strange, you would think the best answer for ANY given question would be... well... the answer to the freaking question.

Emphasis mines.


how many times has YOUR math teacher marked you correct when you answered a question with "But does two WANT to be added with three? We really need to check it's motives here don't you think?"

Numbers do not have an opinion towards whether they are added, multiplied, subtracted, divided, etc. They simply operate on preset parameters ("+", "-", "/", "*"). This is a rather poor analogy if it even belongs in this thread at all. I'm going to assume that this was for another thread entirely and was just mentioned here accidentally. :smallconfused:

TuggyNE
2013-12-21, 03:02 AM
strange, you would think the best awnser for ANY given question would be... well... the awnser to the freaking question.

how many times has YOUR math teacher marked you correct when you awnsered a question with "But does two WANT to be added with three? We really need to check it's motives here don't you think?"

Many questions are straightforward. Many others are not. Suppose your boss walks by your desk and says, "I was looking at the results of our A/B-testing for this page on our site, and noticed we got 5133 click-throughs with A and 4907 with B. How many would we get if we took their average?" The answer is not "5020 click-throughs" (the average of those two numbers), the answer is "we don't know yet, we'd have to test that separately".

Or, bringing it back to D&D, "which is better for my Barbarian 1 with a greataxe: Toughness or Dodge?" The answer to the exact phrasing of the question is irrelevant in most cases, because neither is actually very good, and there are a number of other choices that should be considered before either of them.

In each of these cases, of course, the problem is that the question is poorly phrased and based on false assumptions and a flawed mental model. So it is with the OP; they assumed that slavery would, on its own, apply lasting physical and mental changes beyond the normal range. But that assumption is highly dubious, and should be challenged accordingly.

As an engineer, I'm professionally motivated to answer the questions that need to be asked, and correct the questions that were actually asked if needed, and this spills over into other areas as well.

Coidzor
2013-12-21, 10:06 PM
I recall that there's some slavery-based halfling traits and feats in the Pathfinder lexicon, they may be of interest for the general topic, though none of them really directly pertain to the specific concerns of gladiatorial slaves. IIRC, there's some that help model the potential social stigma aspect, though.

Though Pathfinder does have some performance combat rules that would be of interest for modeling gladiatorial games.

Arcanist
2013-12-21, 10:44 PM
I recall that there's some slavery-based halfling traits and feats in the Pathfinder lexicon, they may be of interest for the general topic, though none of them really directly pertain to the specific concerns of gladiatorial slaves. IIRC, there's some that help model the potential social stigma aspect, though.

Though Pathfinder does have some performance combat rules that would be of interest for modeling gladiatorial games.

Why in Perdition would people have Gladiator Halflings? I'd imagine that would the equivalent of watching midgets fight each other. :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2013-12-22, 04:39 AM
Why in Perdition would people have Gladiator Halflings? I'd imagine that would the equivalent of watching midgets fight each other. :smalltongue:

Indeed. Most of them pertain to being a bodyslave or general houseslave, I believe, though there are halfling slave crews on ships in their Golarion setting, IIRC. And while I don't recall all of the details offhand, I still don't think there's anything about that specific combination in the body of their work though.

I was mostly noting that, since I was bringing up Pathfinder at all, they did have the performance combat rules too as a separate thing.