V spell slots

[Slithy a Kobold]

What's the difference between a spell and a cantrip

[mythmonster2]

Cantrips are spells, but they're 0th level. The majority of them are practically worthless in low-level fights, and definitely not in this kind of situation, barring some optimization which V definitely does not have.

[Adun]

Cantrip are 0-level spells

[Chantelune]

Cantrips are really weak spells either easy to fend off with a save check or doing little damage that wouldn't be useful in actual combat save very specific conditions (like the ray of frost Xykon casted on O'chul after he escaped the acid breathing shark. The conditions here being O'chul being a fighter, so quite easy to manage a ranged touch attack upon and having barely any hp left, so 1d4 damages would be enough to put uncounscious). Most of the time, past the first levels, it's best to use them for utility spells like light or prestidigitations, that won't do much in battle, but can have some use otherwise.

So yeah, they aren't worth much in this caster fight, V merely mention them to point out that she actually have 25 spells at the ready on top of the mostly useless cantrips.

[Quild]

I wonder if V bluffed on this one.

25+ remaining spells seems a lot.

[The Pilgrim]

Bluffing is quite useless against someone who can read your mind.

[One Step Two]

Remember, V is packing a ring of wizardry, it doubles their low-end spell-slots. Even if it's only 1st or 2nd level, that's a lot of Magic Missiles, and Scorching rays.

[Estrecca]

Bluffing is quite useless against someone who can read your mind.

It is however potentially useful if the mind-reader does not actually bother to read your mind to verify the bluff.

We know what Laurin's reading someone's mind looks like when she read Nale's. 935 lacks the same kind of effect.

[RebelRogue]

V has low Cha and Bluff is cc for wizards. On the other hand, Sense Motive is a class skill for psions and there's no particular reason to expect a low Wis for Laurin. In short, she doesn't need to waste a power to realize that she's in trouble.

Edit: oops, that's telepaths only. I guess I don't play psions too often...

[Souhiro]

In Pathfinder, Cantrips are now MORE interesting, since you can cast them indefinitely. Yes, that makes walting trough the desert moot (You can Create Water as a Lvl-0 spell!)

It was more a display of power, than else. Also... How much will take for the Geekery to rule V's INT bonus from the "25 spells left" statement?

[Trillium]

In Pathfinder, Cantrips are now MORE interesting, since you can cast them indefinitely. Yes, that makes walting trough the desert moot (You can Create Water as a Lvl-0 spell!)

It was more a display of power, than else. Also... How much will take for the Geekery to rule V's INT bonus from the "25 spells left" statement?

Can't you just turn a desert into a sea, with unlimited Create Water? :smallconfused:

[Quild]

Remember, V is packing a ring of wizardry, it doubles their low-end spell-slots. Even if it's only 1st or 2nd level, that's a lot of Magic Missiles, and Scorching rays.

Right, it would then makes 8 more spells, that sure helps.
Plus domain spells.

[Chantelune]

I wonder if V bluffed on this one.

25+ remaining spells seems a lot.

At the end of a regular adventuring day, yes. But V spent most of this day either in the tunnels, where she didn't have any encounter she had to fight or in Hell, where she was bound and gaged. When she finally regroup with the order, she barely casted any spell and was mostly at full strenght. 25 does seems like a lot, but for a caster that have access to 7th spell level, high int and probably some items that grant either a bonus to int and spell slots, it's not that many. Even if she only have three spells remaining for each spell level, not counting cantrips, she would already be at 21 spells available. add just four more here and there and you easilly get 25.

As for why Laurin didn't read V's mind... Assuming it cost PP, it would have been a mistake. If V told the truth, that would have made little difference as she would need to bail out anyway. But if V was indeed bluffing, spending more PP on mind reading mean that she takes the risk of running just a bit short in her defensive potential and maybe tip the scales in V favor. Mind reading there meant V scoring a blow in attrition.

Rolling for sense motive was the best course of action. If she rolled high, she can assume V is not bluffing and bail out. If she rolled low, she don't know if V bluffed, but she knows her own PP pool and bailing out is safer than confirming it by running out and eating a disintigrate. Better safe than dusty, especially when you know that your high-level cleric pal got dusted himself hours ago.

Laurin was being smart there, in my opinion. Now, did she completely bailed out or just ported somewhere near, but hidden to keep an eye on the fight and potentially pop in and out to get Tarquin out of trouble if need arise, that remain to be seen. :smallamused:

[Niknokitueu]

Lets see...

If it were a Pathfinder character (the only mage I have D&D-style rules for) and a 16th level Evocation specialist, with an assumed 22 Int (18 start plus one per 4 levels) then the spell list would look as follows:

Basic spells/EvocationSchool/IntBonus

Lvl 1: 4/1/2
Lvl 2: 4/1/2
Lvl 3: 4/1/1
Lvl 4: 4/1/1
Lvl 5: 4/1/1
Lvl 6: 3/1/1
Lvl 7: 3/1
Lvl 8: 2/1

For a total of 44 spells (woot!), plus of course the 4 0-level cantrips that he could repeatedly cast (they remain in memory after casting).

And this, of course, is ignoring rings of wizardry, spell storing, Headband of Int bonus, etc.

And if you reduce it to a 15th level character, knock off two spells (one each of levels 7 and 8). As it happens, at any level around 13-16 you only gain two extra spells per level. Plus the school spell on odd levels, plus any gained from Int (as usual).

So, even going by strict AD&D rules it is not unfeasable for him to still have 25 non-cantrip spells left. No wonder Laurin decided to bug out.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[zimmerwald1915]

If it were a Pathfinder character (the only mage I have D&D-style rules for) and a 16th level Evocation specialist, with an assumed 22 Int (18 start plus one per 4 levels) then the spell list would look as follows:
Just dropping in to point out that Pathfinder Wizards' spells per day table is a direct copy and paste job from 3.5 Wizard's spells per day table.

[CombatOwl]

I wonder if V bluffed on this one.

25+ remaining spells seems a lot.

Ring of Wizardry, high Intelligence... and Bluff is not a class skill and V's charisma is low. So, probably not bluffing.

[Niknokitueu]

Just dropping in to point out that Pathfinder Wizards' spells per day table is a direct copy and paste job from 3.5 Wizard's spells per day table.
Nice to know. I knew there would be some correlation, but to be so to this degree, whilst surprising, is also strangely comforting.

Go figure.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Dracon1us]

Better safe than dusty

Laurin was being smart there, in my opinion. Now, did she completely bailed out or just ported somewhere near, but hidden to keep an eye on the fight and potentially pop in and out to get Tarquin out of trouble if need arise, that remain to be seen. :smallamused:

eh
that should be in a t-shirt :smallamused:

do you think she's hiding on the ship?

[Jay R]

Can't you just turn a desert into a sea, with unlimited Create Water? :smallconfused:

The output is way too slow.

Create Water creates 2 gallons/level.

Assuming a 20th level caster has the ability to cast it every six seconds, without pausing to rest, sleep, or eat, that's:

40 gallons / spell.
400 gallons / minute.
24,000 gallons / hour.
576,000 gallons / day.
210,240,000 gallons / year.

Two hundred million gallons sounds like a lot, doesn't it? But at 231 square inches per gallon, that fills a lake 1 square mile up to a depth of (wait for it):

12 inches deep. (14 1/2 inches deep if using imperial gallons.)

And of course it's in a desert. How fast does water evaporate? If the lake is spread over 5 square miles, that's roughly as much water as the Mojave desert gets in rain over the course of a year.

[CombatOwl]

The output is way too slow.

Create Water creates 2 gallons/level.

Assuming a 20th level caster has the ability to cast it every six seconds, without pausing to rest, sleep, or eat, that's:

40 gallons / spell.
400 gallons / minute.
24,000 gallons / hour.
576,000 gallons / day.
210,240,000 gallons / year.

Two hundred million gallons sounds like a lot, doesn't it? But at 231 square inches per gallon, that fills a lake 1 square mile up to a depth of (wait for it):

12 inches deep. (14 1/2 inches deep if using imperial gallons.)

And of course it's in a desert. How fast does water evaporate? If the lake is spread over 5 square miles, that's roughly as much water as the Mojave desert gets in rain over the course of a year.

Well, not to rain on your parade, but that 20th level spellcaster can actually do that twice per turn (using quicken spell).

Though to be honest, a 20th level spellcaster without craft wondrous item is kind of a moron. The easier way would be to keep crafting decanters of endless water until you have enough to meet your target goal (in terms of time), and once you've filled the lake high enough, turn off all but those required to maintain the body of water against evaporation.

It's actually not that expensive, relative to the size of national economies.

[Cuthalion]

I wonder if V bluffed on this one.

25+ remaining spells seems a lot.

What has she cast today?

Fireball, Wall of Fire, Bigsby's Hand twice, Forcecage, Resilient Sphere.... She's at least a fifteenth level wizard. That's a lot of spells.

[Zaggab]

Well, not to rain on your parade, but that 20th level spellcaster can actually do that twice per turn (using quicken spell).

Though to be honest, a 20th level spellcaster without craft wondrous item is kind of a moron. The easier way would be to keep crafting decanters of endless water until you have enough to meet your target goal (in terms of time), and once you've filled the lake high enough, turn off all but those required to maintain the body of water against evaporation.

It's actually not that expensive, relative to the size of national economies.

But a quickened cantrip would still count as at least a 4th level spell (or above), which the 20th level character does not have an infinite number of.

[zimmerwald1915]

What has she cast today?
The truth is out there. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16647248&postcount=982)

[CombatOwl]

But a quickened cantrip would still count as at least a 4th level spell (or above), which the 20th level character does not have an infinite number of.

No, but that's still a significant amount of extra water per day. And as for not being able to do it infinite times per day... maybe they've optimized for metamagic reduction on create water? I'm sure there's some way or another to drop it to +0. Maybe they have enough lesser rods of quicken to let them cast for 22 hours of create water?

[Chantelune]

eh
that should be in a t-shirt :smallamused:

do you think she's hiding on the ship?

I consider it a possibility, though I consider just as plausible that she just decided to let Tarquin fend for himself.

Frankly, I think it would depend on how much she care about Tarquin. They've been working together for a long time and they already lost Malack. She might decide that losing one third of their team would cause too much trouble for their plan, or that she don't want to loose another friend. Poping in and out with Tarquin might not be too much a burden on her depending on how much PP she still have.

Then again, she might just as well decided that Tarquin is proving to be too much of a hassle, wasting so much resources just to take out an adventuring party who doesn't even want to get in their way (yet), just to ensure that they will at some point in the future.

So yeah, I find it possible, but won't hold my breath and bet on it. :smallbiggrin:

[TheWombatOfDoom]

The truth is out there. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16647248&postcount=982)

Well done, Zimmer. I'm quite impressed from that. If you haven't received a cookie for it yet, might I offer to give you one now?

[zimmerwald1915]

Well done, Zimmer. I'm quite impressed from that. If you haven't received a cookie for it yet, might I offer to give you one now?
Thanks. I like ginger snaps :smallredface:

[Seward]

There have been others who added up V's spell slots, but the summary is something like this.

V has blown through most of hir high level slots. That Forcecage was probably it for L6-7. We have not seen Power Word Stun, so that's probably the spell V was intending to use as a finisher.

L5 is also under pressure (overland fly, quicken xp retreat+passwall etc), but the Cone of Cold was likely hir domain slot and there may be a spell or two there. The bulk of V's spells are going to be in the L1-4 range.

V had an 18 int when V was about level 7. Assume by L12 that is 20 int from statbumps and a +4 intelligence item (dirt cheap for a L15ish character). This means V will get 2 bonus spells per level in the 1-3 range, and 1 in the 4+ range. V also has a ring of wizardry which doubles spell slots, probably L3 given V's tendency to use L3 spells casually and for utility.

So lets say 1 L8 spell, maybe 1-2 other spells in the 5-7 range. V used 2 L4 spells (dim anchor, resilient sphere) in this fight and a wall of fire earlier, which means V has 4+1(bonus)+1(domain)-2 = 3 L4 spells left, maybe less, but maybe more in the 5-7 range. Split the difference, call it 5 spells total of L4 or greater.

L3 spells we've seen fly, two lightning bolts and a fireball. We know V usually also racks Suggestion at this level. Assuming the ring of wizardry is here, V has 4x2+2+1 spell slots, -4 used = 7 more. Up to 12.

L2 we know V packs one invisibility (not yet used) and tends to have scorching ray in the domain slot. We've not seen anything from L2, so lets give V her total 4+2+1=7 slots. 19.

L1 we know V packs one feather fall and at least one magic missile. Again nothing much used here, so that's another 7 spells. 26.

Or "in excess of 25 slots not including cantrips".

Now granted feather fall, invisibility and suggestion aren't any real use on Lauren (although feather fall could be handy to save somebody if V uses fireball...). But those scorching rays and magic missiles are important and so are any lightning bolts or fireballs if she can target them without hurting the ship - Lauren's reflex save was insufficient against the Resilient Sphere, so we can imagine her touch AC isn't much either and she's not going to have a Shield spell or Magic Resistance either.

The reason direct damage is dangerous to Lauren is Power Word Stun. If she ever decides to "suck up" a direct damage evocation from V, V can follow up with power word stun...Lauren can't have many hitpoints over 150 if she even starts out above the "stun" threshold and getting stunned for even one round means you suck up additional damage, 2+ rounds is going to be fatal. V didn't open with it for fear of high hitpoints or a counter, but if we saw Lauren all dinged up from lower level spells, you know that would be coming.

So yeah. V wasn't bluffing. As for Lauren trying a stun vs a disintegrate in the first round, you need to hit with a touch attack with the former (we've only seen her use it on force constructs or dead bodies..perhaps her dex sucks?). Also V failed a save vs a mental attack earlier, so it was a reasonable thing to try...in essence Lauren opened with her version of Power Word Stun and it didn't pan out.

[Cuthalion]

The truth is out there. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16647248&postcount=982)
Ah, thanks. Please obtain a dessert of choice.

[Amphiox]

Can't you just turn a desert into a sea, with unlimited Create Water? :smallconfused:

If everyone who lived in a desert chooses to take a caster level as their first level to get that cantrip, then each person gets 2 gallons of water per day even as level 1 chars. 2 gallons is enough to satisfy an average human's daily needs rather easily with just a little frugality, with enough to water a few house plants at the least. Any household with more than 4 people could make enough water to maintain a small backyard garden so long as the crops they grow are arid-adapted.

So maybe not a desert into a sea, but every human settlement could be turned into a swath of temperate parkland/garden, and all it would take is individual free enterprise of common people doing relatively accessible things for their own self-interest.

[Silver Swift]

If everyone who lived in a desert chooses to take a caster level as their first level to get that cantrip, then each person gets 2 gallons of water per day even as level 1 chars. 2 gallons is enough to satisfy an average human's daily needs rather easily with just a little frugality, with enough to water a few house plants at the least. Any household with more than 4 people could make enough water to maintain a small backyard garden so long as the crops they grow are arid-adapted.

So maybe not a desert into a sea, but every human settlement could be turned into a swath of temperate parkland/garden, and all it would take is individual free enterprise of common people doing relatively accessible things for their own self-interest.

It is my understanding that "Individual free enterprise of common people doing relatively accessible things for their own self-interest" combined with any amount of in universe rules knowledge is going to do way worse things to a setting than having what amounts to running water everywhere.

For instance, the pathfinder wizards spell list contains the following 1st level spells: comprehend language, unseen servant, summon minor monster and keep watch. So suddenly, in addition to running water, people in your setting has conquered language barriers, simple household tasks and the need to sleep.

Disclaimer: I'm not a D&D player, I just pretend to be one on the internet :)

[Amphiox]

It is my understanding that "Individual free enterprise of common people doing relatively accessible things for their own self-interest" combined with any amount of in universe rules knowledge is going to do way worse things to a setting than having what amounts to running water everywhere.

For instance, the pathfinder wizards spell list contains the following 1st level spells: comprehend language, unseen servant, summon minor monster and keep watch. So suddenly, in addition to running water, people in your setting has conquered language barriers, simple household tasks and the need to sleep.

Disclaimer: I'm not a D&D player, I just pretend to be one on the internet :)

One can get around that narratively by allowing that in universe characters don't know what all the available spells are. So culturally a desert people may simply have not researched the fact that a spell like comprehend language can exist, but they would have had ample motivation to discover create water at some point in their history.

But it is true that D&D rules, designed for adventure campaign games, will render nonsensical results if pushed to their logical extremes (a universal divide by zero error if you will.) Take the Summon Monster series of spells for example and consider their utility not in battle but in animal husbandry, agriculture, industry and scientific research. The implications are far reaching and endlessly cascade. In fact I think it arguable that the standard medieval-level technological and sociopolitical setting of a typical D&D campaign would not in fact exist in a recognizable form in such a world, since that whole construct is based on a system where control of land for supporting livestock and growing crops is the key to political and economic power. And that all becomes obviated if you can just summon some of those animals for some of those tasks (not even necessarily all) out of the ether whenever you need them.

[orrion]

Right, it would then makes 8 more spells, that sure helps.
Plus domain spells.

When did Wizards start getting domain spells?

[Trillium]

When did Wizards start getting domain spells?

I guess he meant specialization bonus spells?

[Lexible]

It is however potentially useful if the mind-reader does not actually bother to read your mind to verify the bluff.

I noticed that Shattersmith's eyes were alight (i.e. she was spell casting) as V made the claim about remaining spells. Given that there were no other obvious spell effects going on, doesn't mind-reading seem a reasonable assumption?

[Lexible]

Can't you just turn a desert into a sea, with unlimited Create Water? :smallconfused:

Assuming you had a few million years to create that much water, yes.

[Lexible]

As for why Laurin didn't read V's mind...

If Laurin didn't read V's mind, then why are her eyes yellow (i.e. psionicizing) whilst V drops the knowledge about remaining spells?

[137beth]

Assuming you had a few million years to create that much water, yes.

No, the spell description explicitly states that the water disappears after 1 day if not "consumed".
So you need a few million years AND a lot of creatures to consume the water and then get it out of their bodies.

[Kish]

If Laurin didn't read V's mind, then why are her eyes yellow (i.e. psionicizing) whilst V drops the knowledge about remaining spells?
Whenever she manifests a psionic power--including when she read Nale's mind--her whole head glows. You're arbitrarily declaring that her eyes not having yet gone back to black one panel after she disintegrated the Resilient Sphere proves she's manifesting a new power, with an unprecedented lack of glow around her head.

[Sylthia]

Any art inconsistencies might be attributed to Rich's new computer.

[Lexible]

Whenever she manifests a psionic power--including when she read Nale's mind--her whole head glows. You're arbitrarily declaring that her eyes not having yet gone back to black one panel after she disintegrated the Resilient Sphere proves she's manifesting a new power, with an unprecedented lack of glow around her head.

I am not declaring anything except that I think she is manifesting a power in that frame. Given the lack of visible effect, I put my money of mind reading. Of course, I am not certain of that... and I agree with the consideration against mind-reading.

On the other hand, I don't recall seeing glowing eyes means she cast a spell in the recent past effects before.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Any art inconsistencies might be attributed to Rich's new computer.

Her head (or body) has a dwoemer around it when she manifests powers in that strip.

(And anyway such inconsistencies would be in how something looks when it is present, not whether it is present.)

[orrion]

I am not declaring anything except that I think she is manifesting a power in that frame. Given the lack of visible effect, I put my money of mind reading. Of course, I am not certain of that... and I agree with the consideration against mind-reading.

On the other hand, I don't recall seeing glowing eyes means she cast a spell in the recent past effects before.

When she read Nale's mind, she had the glow effect around her head in panel 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html).

So Laurin reading minds DOES have a visual effect.

[Trillium]

1) Laurin's eyes glow BEFORE V states (s)he has 25 spells. After that her eyes are black.
2) Characters' eyes tend to glow with their dweomer when they threaten someone with magical power. Example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html).

Laurin wasn't scanning V's mind. She just believed V, or simply used a chance to end the battle.

[jogiff]

No, but that's still a significant amount of extra water per day. And as for not being able to do it infinite times per day... maybe they've optimized for metamagic reduction on create water? I'm sure there's some way or another to drop it to +0. Maybe they have enough lesser rods of quicken to let them cast for 22 hours of create water?

I don't think there is in Pathfinder. But there is a feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection) to apply any metamagic feat without adding levels.

By RAW Quicken Spell would be useless since it says "without affecting its level or casting time," but they probably only meant that it wouldn't make a metamagic spell take a full round action to cast for spontaneous casters.


But the whole exercise is moot because in PF the water from Create Water will disappear (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-water) after a day if not consumed. Theoretically you could just have something consume the water and then void it or vomit it out.

The decanters of endless water are much more sensible. Three of them would be able to exceed your own ability (90 gallons vs 80 gallons and the water doesn't disappear) and only cost 27,000 gp to buy (just over 3% of a 20th level character's starting gp). It'd be even less to craft them.

Make ten zombies and 10 decanters of endless water. Leave them in a valley for a year and when you come back they should have produced enough water to fill about .0033% of the San Francisco Bay. If an epic level character were to sink all of his starting money and a couple feats into this then he could fill .067% of the San Francisco Bay (it'd take 1,500 years to fill it)

[Runeclaw]

But the vast majority of people lack PC levels altogether, as well as lacking the required stats, and the education or magical inheritance necessary to become a first level caster.

The teeming masses of NPCs do not at some point in their lives get to consciously choose a PC class to gain a level in.

[Amphiox]

Assuming you had a few million years to create that much water, yes.

Alternately, a few million people to cast the spell (and then drink the water).

And you can get that by just founding a city, and making education/training available so that anyone who wants to can get that first level in a spellcasting class.

But one would need to take into account not only the rate of water production, but also the rate of water loss. The rate of evaporation can naturally be fierce in a desert land. And of course, if there is porous bedrock underneath the sand, you'll never turn THAT patch of land into a lake.... (though you can change it into something that isn't a desert).


But the vast majority of people lack PC levels altogether, as well as lacking the required stats, and the education or magical inheritance necessary to become a first level caster.

The teeming masses of NPCs do not at some point in their lives get to consciously choose a PC class to gain a level in.

The distinction between PC and NPC is an artifact of a system designed for roleplaying campaigns. Once you turn to full-on world building that distinction cannot continue to hold.

So long as you allow that all sentients are equal, and all will act in their own self-interest, then every NPC gets the right to choose a PC class when they come of age, as suitable to their inclinations, needs, and the stats they are born with. Every sentient being IS the PC of their own life story, when you worldbuild, as opposed to constructing a campaign.

If there is a set of cantrips or level one spells that are very helpful in a particular environment, then over time the people living in that environment will gravitate towards obtaining that one level in that spellcaster class to get access to those spells. Those who lack the stats to become casters will either hire spellcasters to do it for them (or get a magic item for the job), or they will be gradually selected out of the population as they are outcompeted by their neighbours, or choose to move to another land where they are not at such a competitive disadvantage.

(And from the point of view at looking at the larger environmental/societal effects such a phenomenon would have, there is little difference between a character who can cast a spell and a character who owns a magic item that reproduces that spell's effect).

[SoC175]

Bluffing is quite useless against someone who can read your mind.A psion reading a mind is no different than a wizard reading a mind. Both have to use a power/spell and the target has to fail it's save.

Psions are not automatic better at mind reading than any magic user

No, but that's still a significant amount of extra water per day. Actually it's not. When doing nothing but casting the cantrip 24/7, the few rounds were you blow all your level 4+ spell slots to cast it twice per round is utterly insignificant. It would be less then 10 minutes out of your 24 hours of casting.

[zimmerwald1915]

So long as you allow that all sentients are equal, and all will act in their own self-interest, then every NPC gets the right to choose a PC class when they come of age, as suitable to their inclinations, needs, and the stats they are born with. Every sentient being IS the PC of their own life story, when you worldbuild, as opposed to constructing a campaign.
Just an aside, but according to the DMG, PC classes are supposed to be the domain of characters with stats whose total bonuses are equal to or greater than the Elite Array (i.e., +5). Characters with total stat bonuses of less than +5 are supposed to be restricted to NPC classes. That is, of course, a setting assumption and anyone building a setting is free to take it on board or throw it out as she pleases. But it makes a kind of intuitive sense.

[jere7my]

So long as you allow that all sentients are equal, and all will act in their own self-interest, then every NPC gets the right to choose a PC class when they come of age, as suitable to their inclinations, needs, and the stats they are born with. Every sentient being IS the PC of their own life story, when you worldbuild, as opposed to constructing a campaign.

Who says all sentients are equal? In the real world, only a tiny minority of people can ever become virtuoso violinists, no matter how hard the others practice. I might practice every day for eight hours, and I would surely be competent, and possibly even good—but I would never be a virtuoso. If the government guaranteed a million dollars a year to every virtuoso violinist in the country, the number of virtuosos would probably increase, but they would never be a majority of the population.

If learning a class level is more like becoming a virtuoso violinist than becoming a good mechanic or editor, then only some NPCs will ever reach first level.

[Niknokitueu]

I had a long and involved post on the subject of NPC's becoming mages, but teh internets ate it.

In summary, medieval societies had very few people that had any time for anything other than keeping the society going. If 4 out of 5 people, for example, need to grow/raise/breed food, then that means there is only 1/5 people that can do anything else, like build, smithy, guard etc.

What it boils down to is that if you wanted to keep society functioning, you end up with about as many mages as you would have 'upper class' (ie way less than 1 in 100). Not exactly a social revolution...

Far better, as a previous poster noted, to keep creating Decanters of Endless Water until the water debt is balanced/exceeded, wherupon the desert will effectively cease to be.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Amphiox]

Who says all sentients are equal? In the real world, only a tiny minority of people can ever become virtuoso violinists, no matter how hard the others practice. I might practice every day for eight hours, and I would surely be competent, and possibly even good—but I would never be a virtuoso. If the government guaranteed a million dollars a year to every virtuoso violinist in the country, the number of virtuosos would probably increase, but they would never be a majority of the population.

If learning a class level is more like becoming a virtuoso violinist than becoming a good mechanic or editor, then only some NPCs will ever reach first level.

If PC levels are equivalent to virtuosity, then there will be too few of them to even have believable campaigns. It seems much more in keeping with artisanal levels of competence rather than virtuosity.

Keep in mind that for the thought experiment to work, a complete level of mastery as in a RPGs campaign is not needed, if by that one means the full set of capability that a newly minted level one PC would have. All that would be needed is for a sentient NPC to aspire to want to be able to cast a single cantrip (in this case Create Water), and then undertaking to obtain the training needed to do that. If he fails to achieve full PC mastery of a spell casting class (which entails mastery of all cantrips plus some level one spells) it doesn't actually have an impact on the thought experiment.


In summary, medieval societies had very few people that had any time for anything other than keeping the society going. If 4 out of 5 people, for example, need to grow/raise/breed food, then that means there is only 1/5 people that can do anything else, like build, smithy, guard etc.

The thought experiment is predicated on the premise that some of the cantrip-levels ARE one of the activities that are very helpful/vital to keeping the society going. Watering an arid land is just as important, if not more so, than growing/raising/breeding food. Thus a medieval society with access to such magic would invest the resources into having a cadre of its citizens capable of that activity. So, for example, instead of training a corps of hydrological engineers to dig wells and build aqueducts, perhaps they'll have instead a cadre of mages to cast Create Water and make Decanters.

One must also consider whether or not a medieval-level society is even likely to take that form in a D&D style universe with magic as an available exploitable resource. On the simplest analysis, certain magic spells give a medieval society the equivalent of some pretty modern technologies (for example, Sending is like texting and e-mail), at least for a elite group. You'd end up with a rather hybrid society, which, if you really analyze things, is highly likely not to end up looking much like a standard sword-and-sorcery medieval type society at all.

[zimmerwald1915]

If he fails to achieve full PC mastery of a spell casting class (which entails mastery of all cantrips plus some level one spells) it doesn't actually have an impact on the thought experiment.
For what it's worth, create water is on the adept spell list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm).

[konradknox]

I'm sorry, but cantrips could matter a lot on a flying ship.
Like a sneaky untying of some rope knot to make a plank hit one on the face, or popping out a nail from the railing, on which someone is holding on to.

[jere7my]

If PC levels are equivalent to virtuosity, then there will be too few of them to even have believable campaigns. It seems much more in keeping with artisanal levels of competence rather than virtuosity.

I think you're confusing "equivalent to virtuosity" with what I actually said, "more like virtuosity." I'm not saying there should be exactly as many clerics with class levels as there are violin virtuosos; I am saying that learning to manipulate magic may be something your average fantasy peon may or may not have the aptitude for, just like learning to be a violin virtuoso. Perhaps the gods only tap one in a thousand for divine service, and no matter how much praying and studying someone does, if they're not chosen it won't do any good. This jibes with the way miracles were viewed in the medieval world: you can study as much as you want, but if God doesn't decide to act through you you won't cure any lepers or produce any springs.

(Also, the minimum number of people with class levels you need for a believable campaign is one for every player. Not every D&D campaign has fifth-level priests in every village temple.)


On the simplest analysis, certain magic spells give a medieval society the equivalent of some pretty modern technologies (for example, Sending is like texting and e-mail), at least for a elite group. You'd end up with a rather hybrid society, which, if you really analyze things, is highly likely not to end up looking much like a standard sword-and-sorcery medieval type society at all.

That's a good argument for not making magic common by default, in my book.

[Runeclaw]

The distinction between PC and NPC is an artifact of a system designed for roleplaying campaigns. Once you turn to full-on world building that distinction cannot continue to hold.

The difference between PCs and NPCs, maybe. But the difference between PC and NPC classes is a different distinction. NPCs can certainly have PC classes. But the vast majority do not.


So long as you allow that all sentients are equal

Why on Earth (or campaign world of your choice) would I grant that? It's not based on real life and it's not supported by the source books, so it seems like an absurd claim.


then every NPC gets the right to choose a PC class when they come of age

You could build a campaign world that way, but it does not describe any of the published campaign worlds that I'm familiar with, or any homebrew world I've ever played in, and it certainly doesn't describe the world of the OotS. The world resulting from such an assumption would look much less like our world, or a traditional fantasy world, then the actual D&D campaign worlds or the OotS world do.




If there is a set of cantrips or level one spells that are very helpful in a particular environment, then over time the people living in that environment will gravitate towards obtaining that one level in that spellcaster class to get access to those spells. Those who lack the stats to become casters will either hire spellcasters to do it for them (or get a magic item for the job), or they will be gradually selected out of the population as they are outcompeted by their neighbours, or choose to move to another land where they are not at such a competitive disadvantage.

If you premise was valid, your conclusion would follow. Your conclusion is not true in any published campaign world that I'm aware of or in OotS. Therefore, in those worlds, your premise is not valid.

[Adun]

I my math is right, a 15 level specialist wizard with a ring of wizardry and 18 int have a total of 46 spell x day not counting cantrip.

So 25 spells is a believable number