Necromancer questions

[Witch_Hunter]

Hello, just a few questions about necromancy, particularly the cleric variant.

Firstly, can a lich be commanded through a cleric's command spell? I ask not because of any game mechanic that is unclear but mostly because I have a hard time wrapping my mind around this concept. Here you have a necromancer who has achieved his lifelong dream of achieving lichdom, only to have some necromancer waltz up and command him. Now he is an eternal slave to the will of this necromancer and has no ability to break free. Is this okay? From the player's perspective I'm sure it seems great but from the DM perspective I have a tendency to sympathize with all of my NPCs, even the bad ones, byproduct of being their creator I suppose. It's not that i would say no, I just want to be able to do it in a way that makes sense.

Now that question was mostly for argument's sake, it won't be handled until much later in our game. Right now we're at about sixth level.

Secondly, how can I make the game more fun for the necromancer in question. Obviously he's kind of a bad guy in a party of good guys, though he tries [sort of] to keep that hidden from the other PCs. Also minions, particularly undead captured throughout an adventure, are a necromancer's bread and butter but minions have a habit of really, *really* slowing down combat. I want to let him have his minions but I don't want to slog through a dozen skeleton turns either.

I don't really have any other questions but any comments or suggestions about how to help this player enjoy his necromancer more would be great. He says he has fun playing the game but he isn't having all that much fun with his character

If player in questions stumbles across this and reads it... sup bro.

Thanks,
The Witch Hunter

[eggynack]

Hello, just a few questions about necromancy, particularly the cleric variant.

Firstly, can a lich be commanded through a cleric's command spell? I ask not because of any game mechanic that is unclear but mostly because I have a hard time wrapping my mind around this concept. Here you have a necromancer who has achieved his lifelong dream of achieving lichdom, only to have some necromancer waltz up and command him. Now he is an eternal slave to the will of this necromancer and has no ability to break free. Is this okay? From the player's perspective I'm sure it seems great but from the DM perspective I have a tendency to sympathize with all of my NPCs, even the bad ones, byproduct of being their creator I suppose. It's not that i would say no, I just want to be able to do it in a way that makes sense.
Assuming that you're referring to the command effect of rebuking, then it could theoretically work, but it's unlikely to actually succeed. You need twice as many levels as the undead has HD to command them, and liches have +4 turning resistance. So, it's harder to do than normal. Possible through optimization, but then again, normal folk are vulnerable to long term enthrallment too. If you want the lich safe, just keep him a decent amount above the party's level, or even right at the party's level, and things should be fine.


Secondly, how can I make the game more fun for the necromancer in question. Obviously he's kind of a bad guy in a party of good guys, though he tries [sort of] to keep that hidden from the other PCs. Also minions, particularly undead captured throughout an adventure, are a necromancer's bread and butter but minions have a habit of really, *really* slowing down combat. I want to let him have his minions but I don't want to slog through a dozen skeleton turns either.

I'd advise advising him to pick up bigger undead. A pile of 1 HD skeletons are an inefficient use of undead minion resources anyway, and if he just runs around with one or two mighty undead, that's better for everyone involved. Check out the necromancer handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584) for advice along those lines, and maybe other lines too.

[Xuldarinar]

The cleric spell Command cannot effect a lich.

The cleric spell Command only can target living creatures. A lich is an invalid target as far as this effect is concerned.

There is a work around, and it actually backs up that Command cannot be used on a lich: The 1st level mystery Voice of Shadow. Its identical to Command, but affects intelligent undead and constructs, and also can be used as a necromancy effect against undead or constructs to daze them for a round.

Though, perhaps we are talking about two completely different things.



As far as fun goes, Im not sure what to say. Personally, I'd enjoy a necromancer if I had plenty of opportunity to get creative with my abilities but thats just me. Every player is different.

[prufock]

Even if undead were valid targets (which they aren't), command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm) is a mind-affecting, will negates spell. A lich is immune to mind-affecting spells, and would likely have a good will save by virtue of being a high-level spellcaster and getting a wisdom bonus.

[eggynack]

I'm really pretty sure that he was talking about the command function of rebuke undead. I mean, the strict wording indicates otherwise, but the spell command wouldn't exactly grant long term control over undead. Command undead is closer, but that's not a cleric spell, so it's not applicable. Neither spell would make a lich into an eternal slave, even if they worked, especially because command undead functions a lot like charm person on intelligent undead, rather than dominate person.

[prufock]

I'm really pretty sure that he was talking about the command function of rebuke undead. I mean, the strict wording indicates otherwise, but the spell command wouldn't exactly grant long term control over undead. Command undead is closer, but that's not a cleric spell, so it's not applicable. Neither spell would make a lich into an eternal slave, even if they worked, especially because command undead functions a lot like charm person on intelligent undead, rather than dominate person.

You could be right, your post covered this well. Possible, and actually fairly easy with optimization, but difficult for a character not specifically designed for it.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, though Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) would work. Not a Cleric spell though.

However, this is more like Charm Undead in effect.

Edit: I THINK Mind Blank would defend against being Commanded by Rebuke powers. It does stop all effects that would influence your thoughts.

[eggynack]

Possible, and actually fairly easy with optimization, but difficult for a character not specifically designed for it.
Maybe, but we're talking about a lich, which means that it's about as hard to command as the DM chooses to make it. There's a bunch of theoretical HD there, and a sufficiently high amount could probably overtake rebuke optimization efforts.

[OldTrees1]

You might have meant the Command Undead spell. (2nd level spell, lasts for Days/caster level, Make sure the PC knows of it)

Command Undead gives the undead a Will saving throw (unless they are mindless) and lasts for days. One way to combat this is for the lich to already be under someone else's control as a defense mechanism. (Like a party of Enchanters all casting Dominate Person on each other to protect the group from mind control)

Suggestions for the Necromancer PC:
I am unclear if it is a Dread Necromancer or merely a Wizard specialized in Necromancy. Dread Necromancers have Rebuke Undead which allows them to control some weak non-mindless utility undead.

The Command Undead Spell is the Necromancer bread and butter control pool. It scales porportional to level^3 as you level (HD of mindless undead, days/cl, available slots). I would suggest using it but refrain from optimizing it for combat since too many undead slows down the game.

[Sception]

Command Undead isn't typically available to clerics, though Eberron's Necromancy domain grants it, and there are other ways for clerics to cherry pick arcane spells. So yeah, OP probably means via rebuking.

Which, again, requires the clerics rebuking level to be at least the lich's hit dice + turn resistance (basically a level 8 wizard lich would need a level 24 cleric to command them), though, again, as with everything, there are ways to get around that (particularly effects that reduce turn resistance).

As for minioning in a party in general - have the player introduce them to it a bit at a time. The summon undead spells are a good place to start, and SU4 and 5 in particular have some useful choices amongst them. Then move on to temporary animation of one or two monsters for the duration of the adventure, with the promise of destroying them at the end. If the party lets you go that far, then after a couple adventures, you're sure to bump into something so useful that they'll ask the necromancer to keep it around, and then their journey to the dark side will be complete.

The necromancer should focus on one or two big/strong/useful minions, rather than a bunch of little stuff, which chokes up initiative, gums up combat, and doesn't even do that much.

As a DM, if you want to encourage the necromancer there's a few things you can do. The first and most important is to rule "follow that person's orders as though they were me" to be a simple enough command that a mindless undead can follow it (it isn't clear exactly what 'simple commands' means, so it requires a judgment call from you). That way the Necromancer can animate a handful of cool minions, and then hand them out to the other party members.

It makes combat go more smoothly when each player is controlling a character and one minion, instead of one player controlling a character and five minions. Plus it makes the other players more likely to accept the necromancer, since they can see that their own character is getting something out of it. Skeletal nightmare mounts for the archer and wizard, a zombie hydra flanking buddy for the rogue, etc.

You could also hand out useful items, like some extra black onyx, or storage compartments for spare corpses/undead - particularly larger bags of holding or portable holes, or hats/harnesses of disguise to convince the commoners that those nightmares are just regular horses, etc.

[Witch_Hunter]

Ah, see I didn't really know any of that. Yeah, I was referring to the rebuke/command/control ability of clerics, but that only works on mindless undead right? So is there any opportunity for a cleric to control intelligent undead, or are they always going to be controlling zombies and skeletons and other mindless ones?

[OldTrees1]

Ah, see I didn't really know any of that. Yeah, I was referring to the rebuke/command/control ability of clerics, but that only works on mindless undead right? So is there any opportunity for a cleric to control intelligent undead, or are they always going to be controlling zombies and skeletons and other mindless ones?

Clerics and Dread Necromancers command intelligent undead through the Rebuke Undead ability.

[Witch_Hunter]

Another question, my player is telling me that with deathbound he triples the HD limit of his ability to control animated creatures. 2hd/caster level at level six, plus deathbound means that he can control up to 36hd at a time. So am i to understand that hypothetically this level six could animate a dead great wyrm red dragon? That sounds horribly game breaking, so are we missing something here?

[eggynack]

Another question, my player is telling me that with deathbound he triples the HD limit of his ability to control animated creatures. 2hd/caster level at level six, plus deathbound means that he can control up to 36hd at a time. So am i to understand that hypothetically this level six could animate a dead great wyrm red dragon? That sounds horribly game breaking, so are we missing something here?
Deathbound gives you triple your caster level in HD, rather than triple your current limit. Thus, the domain power would grant 3 HD/level, which would only increase the limit from 12 HD to 18 HD.

[Witch_Hunter]

okay so its 18hd instead of 12hd but you use desecration which apparently doubles it so now its 36hd? same problem...

[so just because he can raise it doesn't mean he can control it?]

[eggynack]

[so just because he can raise it doesn't mean he can control it?]
It looks like this is the limiting factor here. I'm not sure if there are any bumps to the control limit, but without one he's stuck at the 4 HD/level control limit.

[OldTrees1]

okay so its 18hd instead of 12hd but you use desecration which apparently doubles it so now its 36hd? same problem...

[so just because he can raise it doesn't mean he can control it?]

One round later (if he lives that long) he casts the 2nd level spell Command Undead and gains control for 6 days.

In general, do not leave high power corpses within sight of a low level necromancer.

[Witch_Hunter]

Alright, well thanks everyone for your answers. Knowing about the 4/hd per caster level control limit helps things as well. Knowing that just because he raises it doesn't mean it won't turn around and smash the party in the face is comforting. Classes that allow for controlling monsters are too much for this poor, struggling, novice DM.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You always control the undead you created with your latest Animate Dead spell, even if it's over the HD cap.
Animate Dead reads:

If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled.

So yes, with Deathbound domain and Desecrate that's 6HD/level, provided you raise them all at once. Throw in a Rod of Undead Mastery to raise it to 8HD/CL. And that's just with Animate Dead.
You can gain another control pool via rebuking, add an arbitrary amount of mindless undead with Command Undead and a lesser Rod of Chain Spell,
and have undead that create spawn under their control for even more minions.

And that's not even counting higher level spells like General of Undeath, Undead Lieutenant or Create Undead Warrior.

[Dalebert]

I hope you don't mind. I'm porting over a couple questions from the PF simple questions thread because they weren't quite simple enough for that thread. The subject seems appropriate for this thread.

Scenario 1:
An NPC cleric has a fast troglodyte zombie under her control via the Command Undead feat and has commanded it to attack invaders (the PCs). The party wizard casts command undead on it and tells it to just stand there. The cleric is not currently present.

Per the following language at the end of the feat desc:

If an undead creature is under the control of another creature, you must make an opposed Charisma check whenever your orders conflict.

How do you resolve this? Does her standing order conflict with his new one calling for a CHA check or would she need to be present to make a CHA check?

Scenario 2:
The original cleric is later present and issues a command to the same zombie (without channeling again). Does it resolve differently? Is there any point to her channeling again? The description quoted implies they both have control.

[Sception]

SCENARIO 1: Yes, the orders conflict, and the cha is rolled off even without the cleric being there. The opposed cha represents the force of their command within the undead creature, rather than some active mental duel going on between the casters.

SCENARIO 2: If the wizard succeeds in the opposed cha check, resulting in the undead creature following the wizard's command 'stand down' over the cleric's 'attack intruders', and the cleric then appears to issue a new 'attack' command, then a new opposed charisma check would be rolled to see which command takes precedence. On the wizards turn, he or she may then issue yet another command, causing yet another opposed charisma check.

Basically, both the npc cleric and the pc wizard have their own separate control over the creature. The Cleric's Command Undead and the wizard's command undead overlap, they do not replace each other. The undead creature will always try to follow the last order of both the Cleric and the Wizard simultaneously (if the Cleric ordered the undead to walk, and the Wizard ordered the undead to chew bubble gum, then it would 'walk and chew bubblegum'). If (and only if) those orders are mutually exclusive, roll off cha to see which order takes precedence until the orders are no longer mutually exclusive.


Now, this is a kind of overcomplicated and annoying system, since it can lead to the same creature being simultaneously controlled by both an original animator and any humber of Commanders and commanders, and it gets to be a mess, and what kind of action is it exactly to issue those orders? and so on.


------------

POTENTIAL HOUSE RULES:

A better system, which I recommend as a house rule, is that if a caster tries to assert control via command undead or Command Undead over an already controlled undead, whether through command undead or Command Undead or animate dead or spawning or what have you, then a single opposed cha check is rolled then and there, and if the caster succeeds then they gain control and the previous control is ended outright, but if they fail then the spell or effect attempting to gain control of the undead creature simply fails.

Since control undead is a much shorter duration spell, I would just have it overwrite other any other control for its duration, no opposed cha required, and then previous control is restored when the spell ends.

This is a much clearer, more coherent system to work with in practice, with only one character in control of the target at a time, so you don't have to muddle about whether each individual instruction is opposed to another, or bother with cha check after cha check after cha check.

[Dalebert]

POTENTIAL HOUSE RULES:
...
Since control undead is a much shorter duration spell, I would just have it overwrite other any other control for its duration, no opposed cha required, and then previous control is restored when the spell ends.


The Command Undead channeling works like control undead. Per that house rule, would that mean it takes precedence over command undead, the longer-lasting but weaker control spell?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There are also ways to boost Turn Resistance. Desecration + Shrine is a good way to make it more annoying, there's certain items that also work to boost it.

Also keep in mind that boosting Rebuke Undead is not as easy as it is to boost Turn Undead. Phylactery of Undead Turning, for example, ONLY works on Turn (not Rebuke) Undead. Likewise, Radiant Servant of Cheese again works only with Turning. It's surprisingly difficult to arbitrarily boost your Rebuking, and the undead typically have more ways of boosting their Turn Resistance.

Also, if the Litch has a pet cleric around ( maybe like :redcloak: ), Bolster Undead can also make it obnoxious to try and Rebuke/Command.

The spell Command Undead only works like a charm effect. Control Undead (7th level Necromancy spell from Wiz/Sorc) is a Dominate effect, but only lasts for Min./level. And sentient undead will -remember- you did this to them. So you'd best be ready for a dish of revenge.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's more than enough ways to boost rebuking. Most of them are relatively cheap, too.

Rod of Authority (DotF) +4, Scepter of the Netherworld (LM) +3 ,Sacred Shield (BoED) +2, Sacred Armor (BoED) +2, Improved Turning feat (PHB) +1, Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (ECS) +1, Paragnostic Apostle - See through the Veil (CC) +2, Icon of Ravenloft (EtCR) +4, Ephod of Authority (MIC) +1, Talisman of Undead Mastery (MIC) +2-4 all boost rebuking iirc.

There's also the Lyre of the Restful Soul (LM) and Rod of Defiance (LM), both of which lower turn resistance by 4.

That aside, bolstering is only effective on low HD undead or if you optimize for rebuking since the maximum you can achieve is rebuking level +4.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's more than enough ways to boost rebuking. Most of them are relatively cheap, too.

Rod of Authority (DotF) +4, Scepter of the Netherworld (LM) +3 ,Sacred Shield (BoED) +2, Sacred Armor (BoED) +2, Improved Turning feat (PHB) +1, Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (ECS) +1, Paragnostic Apostle - See through the Veil (CC) +2, Icon of Ravenloft (EtCR) +4, Ephod of Authority (MIC) +1, Talisman of Undead Mastery (MIC) +2-4 all boost rebuking iirc.

There's also the Lyre of the Restful Soul (LM) and Rod of Defiance (LM), both of which lower turn resistance by 4.I'm fairly certain that Sacred gear only works on Turning and applies negative levels to Evil characters... also many of these things require extra actions to use, so unless you are breaking action economy (in which case, just kill the annoying thing), you're not likely to get this combo off effectively.


That aside, bolstering is only effective on low HD undead or if you optimize for rebuking since the maximum you can achieve is rebuking level +4.

Yea, but your opponent has to hit TWICE that number to Command. Somehow, I rather doubt that is going to happen. Otherwise it's just a Rebuke. Which, granted, is fairly obnoxious (Cowering)... but at least they don't gain outright control.

It's an effective method for protecting swarms of low-level minions (such as the skeletal archery barrage tactic or Destructive Retribution bombers), and it can help strongly mitigate the effectiveness of commanding.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sacred works on rebuking. Everything on that list that's not a holy symbol or a rod stacks. The only thing that costs an action is the Lyre of the Restful soul.

That's also not how rebuking works. If you sucessfully rebuke it you can command it, as long your turning level is > 2x (its HD + turn resistance).
Anything you can command WILL be commanded, no matter how bad you roll on your turning check.
All turning level boosters are untyped, so they all stack. You can easily get twice or more your HD as a turning level and command undead with more HD than you have.

Bolstering low level minions is a sucker deal since it only affects a single creature and lasts for 10 turns.
Bolstering high level undead is questionable unless you have really high charisma or a boosted rebuke level of your own.

[Sception]

The Command Undead channeling works like control undead. Per that house rule, would that mean it takes precedence over command undead, the longer-lasting but weaker control spell?

No. Because house rules are not text rules in a rule book, and as such are not subject to that kind of raw lawyering, particularly when the way 'Command Undead' functions and interacts with command undead under the house rules are explicitly detailed in the preceding paragraph.



The spell Command Undead only works like a charm effect.

Not against mindless undead, it doesn't. Against mindless undead there is no save, and they will follow any orders, even suicidal ones.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Not against mindless undead, it doesn't. Against mindless undead there is no save, and they will follow any orders, even suicidal ones.
What's your point were talking about Liches?


Bolstering low level minions is a sucker deal since it only affects a single creature and lasts for 10 turns. I see nothing in the bolster description to indicate that it doesn't effect all undead in the area. It says "An evil cleric may also bolster undead creatures against turning in advanced" It doesn't say an undead or a undead. It says undead creatures so it works on groups.

[Sception]

What's your point were talking about Liches?

Let me quote for you to the post immediately before mine, the one that set out the two scenarios I was answering:
[QUOTE=Dalebert;16656584]I hope you don't mind. I'm porting over a couple questions from the PF simple questions thread because they weren't quite simple enough for that thread. The subject seems appropriate for this thread.

Scenario 1:
An NPC cleric has a fast troglodyte zombie under her control via the Command Undead feat and has commanded it to attack invaders (the PCs). The party wizard casts command undead on it and tells it to just stand there. The cleric is not currently present.

Per the following language at the end of the feat desc:


How do you resolve this? Does her standing order conflict with his new one calling for a CHA check or would she need to be present to make a CHA check?

Scenario 2:
The original cleric is later present and issues a command to the same zombie (without channeling again). Does it resolve differently? Is there any point to her channeling again? The description quoted implies they both have control.

[Lord Vukodlak]

What's your point were talking about Liches?

Let me quote for you to the post immediately before mine, the one that set out the two scenarios I was answering:

Yet the guy you were quoting was only talking about Liches

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's also not how rebuking works. If you sucessfully rebuke it you can command it, as long your turning level is > 2x (its HD + turn resistance).Right, but when you Boster, its HD + Turn Resistance effectively becomes your result from your turn check. In other words, it needs to be twice your cleric's check in order to be able to command. Otherwise, you're just rebuked, not commanded.

Anything you can command WILL be commanded, no matter how bad you roll on your turning check.Unless you rolled poorly and your effective turning level isn't high enough.


Bolstering low level minions is a sucker deal since it only affects a single creature and lasts for 10 turns.
Bolstering high level undead is questionable unless you have really high charisma or a boosted rebuke level of your own.
It is a rather poorly worded ability, it leaves it open to suggestion either way. Bolstering low level minions is actually not a sucker's bet. You see, when you replace the lower minion's effective HD + Turn Resistance with your turn attempt result, it eats up a LOT more of the other cleric's turn damage to blow it out. In other words, while the opponent cleric might be able to have enough juice to turn a Lich, he probably won't have enough juice to turn your other pet AND the litch, when your other pet is only 1-4 HD shy of the lich's effective HD.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Right, but when you Boster, its HD + Turn Resistance effectively becomes your result from your turn check. In other words, it needs to be twice your cleric's check in order to be able to command. Otherwise, you're just rebuked, not commanded.
Unless you rolled poorly and your effective turning level isn't high enough.
The worst you can get is (your rebuking level -4) and you'd need negative charisma for that. If your rebuking level is higher then 8 then you'll still command anything you could command in the first place.


It is a rather poorly worded ability, it leaves it open to suggestion either way. Bolstering low level minions is actually not a sucker's bet. You see, when you replace the lower minion's effective HD + Turn Resistance with your turn attempt result, it eats up a LOT more of the other cleric's turn damage to blow it out. In other words, while the opponent cleric might be able to have enough juice to turn a Lich, he probably won't have enough juice to turn your other pet AND the litch, when your other pet is only 1-4 HD shy of the lich's effective HD.
That can easily be circumvented by just moving right next to the lich, since it checks in order of distance.
If you rule it as affecting a group it makes more sense since it keeps your low HD cannonfodder from being outright destroyed by a good cleric. On a single undead it's just not action efficient imo.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The worst you can get is (your rebuking level -4) and you'd need negative charisma for that. If your rebuking level is higher then 8 then you'll still command anything you could command in the first place.I'm not sure what you mean by that. Perhaps I should clarify:

Evil Cleric Bolsters an undead. Turn Damage check came up box-cars. So now the undead's effective HD for purposes of turning is 12 + Cleric Level + Charisma Mod. So to plug in some numbers, if it was a 16th level Cleric that bolstered, and had a Charisma of 18, he would have an effective HD of 32 for purposes of being turned.

Other Evil Cleric at level 16 now tries to Rebuke/Command said undead. First off, he has to beat 32 HD on his Turn Check. I hope he's got some toys on hand, because even if he rolls a Natural 20, he is only Rebuking a level 20 Undead, so he needs another +12 somewhere. Second, he needs to beat a 32 on the Turn Damage roll.

Third, he will need an effective cleric level of 64 in order to Command this undead, due to his effective 32 HD for purposes of turning/rebuking. That's probably not gonna happen, regardless.


That can easily be circumvented by just moving right next to the lich, since it checks in order of distance.
If you rule it as affecting a group it makes more sense since it keeps your low HD cannonfodder from being outright destroyed by a good cleric. On a single undead it's just not action efficient imo.

If you can close with the lich, you've already won, just move your beatstick up and do a few thousand damage.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Perhaps I should clarify:

Evil Cleric Bolsters an undead. Turn Damage check came up box-cars. So now the undead's effective HD for purposes of turning is 12 + Cleric Level + Charisma Mod. So to plug in some numbers, if it was a 16th level Cleric that bolstered, and had a Charisma of 18, he would have an effective HD of 32 for purposes of being turned.

It uses your turning check, not your turning damage. So the effective HD in your example would be 14-20 (level 16, minimum turning roll is a 5 which is level -2). Charisma only makes it more likely to get a good roll but the most you can get on a turning check is level +4.

If the cleric packs enough gear to boost his rebuking level he can certainly make a difference but the only ones likely to invest in that are serious necromancers. A turning cleric might get some if it's an undead heavy campaign but that's rare in my experience.
NPCs certainly have better things to spend their limited WBL on unless you specifically design an encounter with a lich + pet cleric to keep your necromancer from commanding him.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It uses your turning check, not your turning damage. So the effective HD in your example would be 14-20 (level 16, minimum turning roll is a 5 which is level -2). Charisma only makes it more likely to get a good roll but the most you can get on a turning check is level +4.

If the cleric packs enough gear to boost his rebuking level he can certainly make a difference but the only ones likely to invest in that are serious necromancers. A turning cleric might get some if it's an undead heavy campaign but that's rare in my experience.
NPCs certainly have better things to spend their limited WBL on unless you specifically design an encounter with a lich + pet cleric to keep your necromancer from commanding him.

What investment are you talking about? This is value-added with no additional purchase necessary.

You can significantly boost the difficulty of turning an undead. Heck, if you have two Clerics of equal level and gear, it all boils down to who rolls higher on the turn check. And either way, you won't be commanding ANYONE, because there's no way you can get to the 2x HD necessary to command unless your opponent somehow has an effective Cleric Level of twice your own... which probably isn't going to happen without your aforementioned significant investment.

In other words, it will work to keep most people off of your minions by spending turn attempts which are otherwise worthless to you.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The investment is the gear needed to make bolstering high level undead effective.
No necromancer wants your cheap cannon fodder. That's what he has Animate Dead for.
The things he wants to command are intelligent undead, preferably high level spellcasters since you can get bruisers from Animate Dead.
Bolstering those isn't going to do much unless you have your own rebuking boosted.

Using rebuking without items to boost it is pretty much useless. You'll get a few skeletons or zombies with, at best, half your HD.
You can create better with Animate Dead starting at 5th level, and no one wants to cart around a few mindless low HD scrubs.
They don't add anything and just clog up the battlefield and make combat take forever.
Any undead you'd actually want to command are going to need a boost in your rebuking level.