Optimizing a thrallherd's believers

[molten_dragon]

So I'm playing a thrallherd, and I'm just hitting the level where I start to get believers (Next time I level up I will have 6 level 1 believers).

My DM's rules on creating believers are:

Elite array for stats
NPC classes only (No more than 1/5 adepts, warriors and experts are fine)
Standard PHB races only
Come with standard WBL for their NPC class

The campaign we're playing in has us on a mission to clear out a dungeon, and then spend 16 weeks (111 days specifically) there doing a ritual to summon a demon. During that 16 weeks we have to protect the dungeon from whoever shows up to attack it. So we get a dungeon of our very own.

I'm trying to think of ways my believers can be useful in protecting the place. We're currently level 6, and I think we're supposed to be 9th or 10th by the time this adventure is done, so direct combat is out or they'll just get butchered.

One of the things I though of that could be useful is to have them craft traps. Then I looked at the trapmaking rules in the DMG, and that's pretty much out because the prices are so ridiculously high. It would take a level 1 expert with a +11 in craft (trapmaking) 47 weeks to build a basic arrow trap. The cheapest CR 1 trap in the book (razor wire across the hallway) would take 9.5 weeks to build. Anyone know whether there was any errata on how long mundane traps take to build? Or a way to speed up mundane crafting times?

I also thought of having warriors with nets and grenadelike weapons to hinder opponents during combat.

What are some other uses I could have for my believers in protecting a dungeon?

[Skysaber]

I think you're coming at this the wrong way.

Put your thralls in miner's outfits, register with the local noble as a mine and pay taxes to him. Should threats show up, demand protection.

Use tailings/mine waste to fill up the sole access corridor leading to where you are conducting the ritual, isolating your party completely. Grab Eternal Rations and an Air Bottle.

Anybody remotely in your CR shows up, the worst they can do is kill all of your thralls (they'll be replaced in 24 hrs anyway). If anything really bad shows up, the local noble will hire adventurers to drive it off.

[molten_dragon]

I think you're coming at this the wrong way.

Put your thralls in miner's outfits, register with the local noble as a mine and pay taxes to him. Should threats show up, demand protection.

Use tailings/mine waste to fill up the sole access corridor leading to where you are conducting the ritual, isolating your party completely. Grab Eternal Rations and an Air Bottle.

Anybody remotely in your CR shows up, the worst they can do is kill all of your thralls (they'll be replaced in 24 hrs anyway). If anything really bad shows up, the local noble will hire adventurers to drive it off.

I'm metagaming a bit, since my wife is running an adventure path that I bought, and I've paged through the books briefly. But subterfuge won't be an option. The evil ritual we're going to be performing has very visible and obviously evil side effects.

[papr_weezl8472]

While trap-crafting is, indeed, perplexingly expensive, and I can't offer any way to speed up mundane crafting unless you have a preposterously high number of workers, I might suggest Handle Animal; for the price of making one basic arrow trap, you could get over two dozen guard dogs.

Alternately, you could just arm your believers with crossbows; not super-effective, but with enough attack rolls some will be natural 20s.

By all means have as many adepts as allowed. Make as many of your higher-level followers adepts as you can. After all, Craft(Alchemy) is useful in the way that Craft(Trapmaking) is evidently not.

[molten_dragon]

While trap-crafting is, indeed, perplexingly expensive, and I can't offer any way to speed up mundane crafting unless you have a preposterously high number of workers,

I was afraid of that. I wonder if I can get my DM to use the same rule that craft (alchemy) uses and make it gold pieces per week instead of silver pieces.


I might suggest Handle Animal; for the price of making one basic arrow trap, you could get over two dozen guard dogs.

That's a pretty good idea. The dungeon is in the middle of a large forest, so there should be plenty of animals around, and with a +11 on the check a level 1 expert can take 10 and train them as guard animals.


Alternately, you could just arm your believers with crossbows; not super-effective, but with enough attack rolls some will be natural 20s.

Thought about that too. Maybe if I can find a place in the dungeon where they can fire from behind arrow slits or something.


By all means have as many adepts as allowed. Make as many of your higher-level followers adepts as you can. After all, Craft(Alchemy) is useful in the way that Craft(Trapmaking) is evidently not.

Well, my DM doesn't require you to be a spellcaster for craft (alchemy). But my thrall (a factotum) is already very good at that, and without being able to use the alchemical goods for traps, we can only make use of so many. And you can craft a lot in 16 weeks.

[Vortenger]

Tucker's Kobolds, bro.

These are your kobolds.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I was afraid of that. I wonder if I can get my DM to use the same rule that craft (alchemy) uses and make it gold pieces per week instead of silver pieces.
You can speed up the crafting process with Fabricate as long as it's only mechanical traps. Doesn't really help with the prices though.



That's a pretty good idea. The dungeon is in the middle of a large forest, so there should be plenty of animals around, and with a +11 on the check a level 1 expert can take 10 and train them as guard animals.
Animals are cheap to buy too. Buy Warbeasts if your DM allows it.



Thought about that too. Maybe if I can find a place in the dungeon where they can fire from behind arrow slits or something.
Take a look at the Missile Volley teamwork benefit in PHB2.

Edit: Take a look at The Commoner Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232822) for decent strategies for low level characters.

[cakellene]

Can you afford eternal wands of magic missile?

[molten_dragon]

You can speed up the crafting process with Fabricate as long as it's only mechanical traps. Doesn't really help with the prices though.

Only problem is we don't have any sorcerers or wizards in the party. And the followers that have decent craft skills and can actually make traps don't have UMD high enough to activate the scrolls with much chance of success.

[molten_dragon]

Can you afford eternal wands of magic missile?

Yeah, probably a couple. How would they activate them though?

[Azoth]

The only problem with going Tucker's Kobolds is that the Kobolds have had generations to design their death trap and he only has a few weeks.

Though I am a huge fan of screwing with people hard core on limited funds and with limited time.

Let's see what we can do here:

Oil: it is cheap as dirt and a crowd favorite replacement for grease. You can use this to lube up downfacing corridors turning them into slip and slides. Best if they end in a dead end pool that you can ignite for a nice hotspring any infernal would love.

Marbles: similar effect and another cheap way to cover your thralls escapes. Since you are in a mine and they are a basic item craft (stone working) should be able to churn them out by the dozen.

Alchemist (insert element): cheap touch attack even a commoner can hit with. (pair with shot on the run for a painful game of tag)

Burning refuse: Nearly free byproduct of crafting and can be used to grant concealment. (best if soaked in oil for quick ignition)

See if you can talk your GM into letting you craft chamoflage paints from ash+water. Great way to help allies hide in a dark cave.

Bells + twine: cheap allert system to tell you where enemies are and are likely headed.

This is a bit on the depraved side, but effective still: scatter the limbs of your enemies all over the mines. Make wind chimes out of their heads. Paint messages and such on the walls in their blood and other fluids. Hell hollow out a few corpses, fill them with acid vials, and prop them up with back lighting. Pity the poor barbarian who attacks him.

Use your cantrips from adepts wisely. Gost sound, silent image, and the like are much more effective than acid splash or conjure water.

Have your experts use Knowledge Nature to find out what types of predators/dangers exist in the forest. A wolf pack is great, but arrows coated in medium viper poison is better. Same for filling small ponds where one can refil water skins with carrion and poison ivy.

Anyone with charisma and the Charm line of spells is wonderful. Lure children and other commoners into the forest and kill them. Use it to convince the local idiots the forest and mine are haunted. (This will deter some, but runs the risk of bringing clerics and paladins down upon you.)

Use the rocks and other debris to seal corridors off entirely or make them look as such. A well placed door with rocks glued on it can be more useful than a bear sometimes.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Only problem is we don't have any sorcerers or wizards in the party. And the followers that have decent craft skills and can actually make traps don't have UMD high enough to activate the scrolls with much chance of success.

There's a psionic version. It's for shapers though so if you went with telepath to get into Thrallherd you'll need to wait until level 9 and spend a feat for Expanded Knowledge.

[cakellene]

Yeah, probably a couple. How would they activate them though?

Adepts are arcane casters, right?

[molten_dragon]

Adepts are arcane casters, right?

Adepts are divine.

[cakellene]

Would burning hands be good?

[Azoth]

Another mean idea: go to whoever wanted you to clear the dungeon out and have them give you the deed to the mine as payment. Have one party member take the feat Landlord at lvl9. Immediately after the dungeon is cleared send word to the guy in charge of things you require for the mine. Have them implemented before you start your evil ritual, and then sit back and laugh.

Landlord will give you free money to upgrade or kit out a property. It will also have the guy in charge (deed giver) match any money you personally sink into the place. Hire 30 skilled laborers for the price of 15 Ect ect ect.

*edit*: For stronghold upgrades and accessories check out The Stronghold Builder's Guide.

[Flickerdart]

Using believers as combatants is pointless. Given that they replenish very frequently, just process them for crafting XP and corpses, and create undead and constructs to defend the dungeon for you.

[molten_dragon]

Using believers as combatants is pointless. Given that they replenish very frequently, just process them for crafting XP and corpses, and create undead and constructs to defend the dungeon for you.

How are 1 HD human skeletons better than 1 HD human warriors?

The warriors at least have an INT score and can watch for intruders and stuff.

[Flickerdart]

How are 1 HD human skeletons better than 1 HD human warriors?

The warriors at least have an INT score and can watch for intruders and stuff.
Every 6 corpses gets you a Flesh Golem, for one. I'm certain there are undead that can be built from composite bodies as well.

Plus, you can always just call some demons with Planar Ally/Binding, and give believers to them in exchange for their help.

[molten_dragon]

Every 6 corpses gets you a Flesh Golem, for one. I'm certain there are undead that can be built from composite bodies as well.

We don't have the money for that, and we're nowhere near meeting the spell prerequisites. We're only level 6.


Plus, you can always just call some demons with Planar Ally/Binding, and give believers to them in exchange for their help.

Lesser planar ally might be an option. Don't have access to planar binding.