Mounted Charger.

[D4rkh0rus]

I've been trying to make a mounter charger build, Barbarian 1, paladin (probably), fighter (for feats) then going into cavalier. But the more I look at It, the less I like including paladin. The duration and low CL of the mount just turns me off.

And before people ask... Paladin of Freedom.

While I dont need an ubermount, I do want a mount that will survive until lvl 9 (where I get dragon Cohort feat)... And then ways to keep said dragon cohort from dropping first fireball in the encounter.

Is wild cohort good enough until then? What can I use/do? (feats, classes, etc)

Im Dead set on taking cavalier 10 (im trying to make a wyvern rider type of character, focused on a devastating charge) and x6-x10 dmg (im not sure if valorous enchantment stacks or adds) on a full attack... is... just... whoa.

Dm will counterbalance it with monsters resistant to such things or just enviroment (caverns, low ceilings, etc)


any reccomendations on feats/etc?

So far the ones on my list are weapon focus (lance), Mounted Combat, Ride-By attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, Shocktrooper, Dragon Cohort.

[Urpriest]

Wild Cohort should be fine, if you remember to get it Barding and maybe a few defensive magic items.

[D4rkh0rus]

Wild Cohort should be fine, if you remember to get it Barding and maybe a few defensive magic items.

Allright, And how would I go about making my dragon cohort better (sry but I never used leadership/similar so Im lost... does it even need optimizing?)

And how would it work if my dragon died? Would I have to get another one? Is there some spell/ability/class feature/etc that allows me to "summon him back" (barring resurrection of course) Can a dragon cohort and paladin special mount mix?

In terms of classes, I was thinking

Barbarian 1 (pounce)
Fighter 2 (2 feats, I need em) (taken at lvl 2 and 6)
Cavalier 10

So, what should I put on lvls 3-5 and 7-8? My common sense says paladin of freedom 5, but anyone got something better?

[Red Fel]

The Dragon Mount feat turns your Paladin special mount into a Dragonnel. Alternatively, the Drakkensteed Mount ACF gives you a Drakkensteed, which is a dragonblood subtype and can fly.

As an aside, you could take the Mounted Combat feat (which you need anyway to get into Cavalier), one level of Cleric (for Cleric spells) and then Prestige Paladin, which will give you Cleric spellcasting with Cleric and Paladin spells, along with most of your Paladin features. PrePal is also easily refluffed to the Paladin of Freedom variant, and an argument can be made to permit Paladin ACFs.

As a further aside, if you took four levels of Ranger, you could use Devoted Tracker to let your special mount be your animal companion. You can see where that goes. (Although four levels is a big dip.)

For a dragon special mount, I would advise you to look into Draconic feats. In particular, Draconic Aura is quite potent. Draconic Aura Vigor is fast healing when below half life for everyone in your party.

[D4rkh0rus]

While the dragonnel sounds interesting, is it really worth it for 4 lvls? (i guess it is if the DM allowed feat retraining...)

Im not planing on taking devoted tracker, already feat starved as is and not trying to build an Ubermount, just a survivable one.

Is there any way to increase the paladin's summons per day (according to the descrition you can only summon your steed once a day, is there any feat/classfeature/trick to summon it more than once a day?

[Urpriest]

Is there any way to increase the paladin's summons per day (according to the descrition you can only summon your steed once a day, is there any feat/classfeature/trick to summon it more than once a day?

You don't really need it. By the time you get a Paladin Mount, it lasts 10 hours. And it's a Calling effect, so I'm fairly sure it can't be dispelled.

Honestly, a Paladin Mount is pretty solid if you're already going for Cavalier 10.

If you still want to avoid Paladin, though, optimizing a Dragon Cohort is another possibility. Basically, treat it like a melee character. It can gain class levels, as long as it keeps within the restrictions posed by the feat. So give it some Barbarian levels for Pounce, or the like.

[SowZ]

Paladin does have the highest damage potential, but you are unlikely to try for the highest end anyway. Feel free to lose the paladin mount, but you are going to miss some great buffs.

[Red Fel]

While the dragonnel sounds interesting, is it really worth it for 4 lvls? (i guess it is if the DM allowed feat retraining...)

Im not planing on taking devoted tracker, already feat starved as is and not trying to build an Ubermount, just a survivable one.

Is there any way to increase the paladin's summons per day (according to the descrition you can only summon your steed once a day, is there any feat/classfeature/trick to summon it more than once a day?

Technically, the Dragon Steed feat I mentioned (I got the name wrong in my prior post) does not require Paladin special mount. It grants you a Dragonnel steed, and describes it as "much like a cohort." The extra part is that if you have the special mount class feature, such as you would get from Paladin (or, I should point out, a Cavalier, since he gets the special mount class feature too), it also counts for that.

So, you don't even need to take Paladin levels to get the extra bonus from Dragon Steed. Frankly, you get the bonus purely by merit of Cavalier, but you get the basic functionality (a dragonnel mount "much like a cohort") regardless. It's already a pretty awesome creature on its own.

That said? If you can swing the Dragon Cohort feat, as Urpriest suggests, run with it. That would be a proper dragon, smart and sorcery and everything, but it might or might not be willing to give you a piggyback ride.

[D4rkh0rus]

Technically, the Dragon Steed feat I mentioned (I got the name wrong in my prior post) does not require Paladin special mount. It grants you a Dragonnel steed, and describes it as "much like a cohort." The extra part is that if you have the special mount class feature, such as you would get from Paladin (or, I should point out, a Cavalier, since he gets the special mount class feature too), it also counts for that.

So, you don't even need to take Paladin levels to get the extra bonus from Dragon Steed. Frankly, you get the bonus purely by merit of Cavalier, but you get the basic functionality (a dragonnel mount "much like a cohort") regardless. It's already a pretty awesome creature on its own.

That said? If you can swing the Dragon Cohort feat, as Urpriest suggests, run with it. That would be a proper dragon, smart and sorcery and everything, but it might or might not be willing to give you a piggyback ride.


By the time I get cavalier, Id have lvl 9, enuf to get dragon cohort. I'm probably going to go Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 5/Cavalier 10.


Now I have to choose between these 2 things:

1 -> Getting a dragon cohort, and making it my special mount (as per DMG by making it La+2. since Dragon cohort lets me choose a dragon and gives it a -3 La, it means that I can choose a dragon and give it -1 LA.

Is this worth it?

the other one would be to ->
Get dragon cohort and take dragon steed or the drakkenrider ACF so i would effectively have 2 mounts...

How would this sound?

Also how would I go about giving class levels to a dragon?

[D4rkh0rus]

Would a normal warhorse Work till around lvl 7-8? or I need to get something like a wild cohort.

[Red Fel]

By the time I get cavalier, Id have lvl 9, enuf to get dragon cohort. I'm probably going to go Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 5/Cavalier 10.


Now I have to choose between these 2 things:

1 -> Getting a dragon cohort, and making it my special mount (as per DMG by making it La+2. since Dragon cohort lets me choose a dragon and gives it a -3 La, it means that I can choose a dragon and give it -1 LA.

Is this worth it?

the other one would be to ->
Get dragon cohort and take dragon steed or the drakkenrider ACF so i would effectively have 2 mounts...

How would this sound?

Also how would I go about giving class levels to a dragon?


Would a normal warhorse Work till around lvl 7-8? or I need to get something like a wild cohort.

First off, I think a Warhorse works fine until you get the upgrade. No sense grabbing Wild Cohort if you plan to change it out again later, unless your DM is fairly generous with feat retraining.

Second, having two mounts is silly. You can't ride both at once. That said, consider this: Dragon Cohort nets you a Dragon cohort. It can be a mount. It can also be a cohort who fights alongside you with its dragony goodness.

You can be a cavalier, fighting from on the back of a dragon, alongside another dragon. You'll be the dragon-est cavalier that ever there was.

As for class levels, that's... not really my area of expertise. As I recall, dragons advance by age category, not by character level, but there may be a lot of details there I'm forgetting. As a side note, since Dragon Cohort is a subspecies of Leadership, you'll probably want to clear it with your DM.

[D4rkh0rus]

Yea but If I have all that dragony goodness... ill get smitten by falling rocks.

[Red Fel]

Yea but If I have all that dragony goodness... ill get smitten by falling rocks.

That all depends on whether you're willing to double-down on dragon.

Kick it up a notch. Play a spellscale or dragonborn. Take a dragon-y class like Vassal of Bahamut or Platinum Knight. Get your ACF dragon mount and your Dragon Cohort feat and take the Dragonfriend feat and dragon dragon dragon dragon truck.

If it becomes a focus of your character design, the DM might even agree to let you have the mount and the cohort if you agree to leave out all that other dragon stuff.

Just hope that he doesn't have Draconomicon, Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon, because that's a lot of dragon to have thrown at your head.

[Urpriest]

By the time I get cavalier, Id have lvl 9, enuf to get dragon cohort. I'm probably going to go Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 5/Cavalier 10.


Now I have to choose between these 2 things:

1 -> Getting a dragon cohort, and making it my special mount (as per DMG by making it La+2. since Dragon cohort lets me choose a dragon and gives it a -3 La, it means that I can choose a dragon and give it -1 LA.

Is this worth it?

the other one would be to ->
Get dragon cohort and take dragon steed or the drakkenrider ACF so i would effectively have 2 mounts...

How would this sound?

Also how would I go about giving class levels to a dragon?

Option 1 is a bad, bad idea. Remember that being a Paladin Mount adds HD, which add to ECL. This means your Dragon will always be behind in HD from both a Dragon Mount and a Dragon Cohort. Just pick one or the other.

You don't need two, really. Just go with one path or the other.

[D4rkh0rus]

Option 1 is a bad, bad idea. Remember that being a Paladin Mount adds HD, which add to ECL. This means your Dragon will always be behind in HD from both a Dragon Mount and a Dragon Cohort. Just pick one or the other.

You don't need two, really. Just go with one path or the other.


So, If i had to choose between a Drakkensteed or a dragonnel (dragon steed feat)

which one should I go for?


Also, how durable are these mounts (I dont have much experience with mounts, since I'm used to playing characters that just dont need them).
I dont care how much dmg they can dish out... a pouncing lance with valorous enchantment and spirited charge says Hi.... I'm needing a Dragon, or wyvern like mount whose durability in combat can be guaranteed, if possible with a decent fly speed (possible ground one too)

Is there any guide/handbook that explains how mounts, specifically the paladin mount, works? (like when do they get feats, abilities, etc).
And which feats are worth giving to the lil mount?

Is it even worth having a paladin mount? (and the 5 paladin levels that it requires, it would end up being a lvl 15 paladin's mount, since cavalier advances that mount).


for 5 lvls of paladin, is it worth keeping spells for rhino rush wands, etc, or just trading them away from an extra feat?



Also, urpriest, I dont understand why you're saying that dragon cohort + special mount don't mix well.

[D4rkh0rus]

I'm wondering about draconomicon's Dragon Steed.
It gives me a dragonnel (which I shall change into better looking random dragon picture to save me a killing spree).

But I dont really understand how it would interact with a paladin.

aparently, it has 6HD at start. and paladin gives it some more HD.

what I dont get is a few things...
It starts out large and when it reaches 13 HD it becomes huge right?


If I were to go full paladin, that would be at lvl 15. I would have a huge Dragonnel. Right?

Is there any way in which to increase the dragonnel's hit dice? not including ubermount shenanigans (that feat with beastmaster/druid lvls)

(assuming im taking 1 lvl in barbarian, 5 in paladin, 2 in fighter and 10 in cavalier. that would leave me with 2 lvls. Im trying to make a charge build, and want a survivable mount... and something tells me that 14HD at lvl 20 will end up being a bit low...).


Also is it possible to apply the warbeast template to a dragon steed? whats people's view on such a thing?


Another question that popped up. given the dragonnel entry, nowhere does it say how many ranks it has in each skill... does it mean as soon as I get one, I calculate skills as if I had levelled it from lvl 1?



and as a last question... is there any way than paladin progression to raise Intellect on the mount? (other than spending points every 4 HD) I want my draconic steed to be able to at least be average intelligence (10+ int)


And with another edit again >< so many questions...
Is it worth getting riding boots? (not phrashed correctly... x1 more to charge is op. what I am asking... is if its worth NOT taking ride-by attack and using the one provided by these boots.)
Would I be screwed if i entered a non magic zone? (since cav and spirited charge require ride-by attack.... it woull null both from what I read).

[Gwendol]

Why not straight paladin? Go sword of the arcane order, and pick up from smite to song to convert your smites to inspire courage. You and your mount will benefit. With a valorous lance, rhino rush and battle blessing, and other ways to increase charge damage you'll not need the cavalier.

[D4rkh0rus]

Champions of valor and Unnaproachable east are probably out. So i wouldn't be able to do that.

[Urpriest]

So, If i had to choose between a Drakkensteed or a dragonnel (dragon steed feat)

which one should I go for?

A Drakkensteed can be gained as a normal Paladin Mount at no extra charge. They're a bit beefier than Warhorses, but not dramatically so.

A Dragonnel would take a feat (Dragon Steed), but is probably more powerful. Lower Str, but two more Hit Dice and more attacks. More relevantly for you, the Dragonnel has more hp and a higher AC, plus a higher speed.

That said, the main benefit of Dragon Steed is not to get a Dragonnel, but to upgrade to more powerful Dragons at higher levels. With that in mind, unless you're low on feats, it's probably worth it if you're going to have a Paladin Mount.



Also, how durable are these mounts (I dont have much experience with mounts, since I'm used to playing characters that just dont need them).
I dont care how much dmg they can dish out... a pouncing lance with valorous enchantment and spirited charge says Hi.... I'm needing a Dragon, or wyvern like mount whose durability in combat can be guaranteed, if possible with a decent fly speed (possible ground one too)

In general, if you've got a Paladin Mount or similar ability, it will roughly keep up with you in terms of number of hit dice, falling behind at higher levels. Keep it geared up, and it should be comparable to you in terms of hp and AC.



Is there any guide/handbook that explains how mounts, specifically the paladin mount, works? (like when do they get feats, abilities, etc).
And which feats are worth giving to the lil mount?

Mounts gain feats and abilities just like other monsters do, so the best resource for this sort of thing would be my Monster Handbook, linked in my sig. Even has a section on companion creatures.



Is it even worth having a paladin mount? (and the 5 paladin levels that it requires, it would end up being a lvl 15 paladin's mount, since cavalier advances that mount).

Depends.

First question: are you going to be Medium, or Small? There are a lot of advantages to going Small with a mounted build, and it makes a lot of things more viable. It's going to be hard to find interesting Dragon mounts for a medium character besides stuff like Dragonnel and Drakkensteed.

In general, being a Paladin Mount will give some nice defensive abilities (Improved Evasion, Share Saving Throws) at the cost of HD. I do a more detailed analysis further down.



for 5 lvls of paladin, is it worth keeping spells for rhino rush wands, etc, or just trading them away from an extra feat?

Yes, but if you don't want to deal with it you won't lose too much power by leaving it out.




Also, urpriest, I dont understand why you're saying that dragon cohort + special mount don't mix well.

Think about it like this:

A Paladin 9 with Dragon Cohort can have a Cohort of up to ECL 10. If you make your Cohort a Paladin Mount, the rules in the DMG say you add two points of LA. You also add bonus HD, because that's what Paladin Mount does. Remember, ECL=HD+LA. So out of that ECL 10, just being a Paladin Mount takes up 4 HD and 2 LA, or 6 points of ECL. That means you only have 4 ECL left, which isn't enough for a Dragonnel (ECL 9).

Let's think about you as a Paladin 5/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Cavalier 10. You've got a 15th level Paladin Mount, which gives 8 bonus HD. With Dragon Cohort, you can get a Cohort of up to ECL 19, but with the Paladin Mount benefits you have only 9 ECL to play with, only enough for a Dragonnel with no extra benefits. By contrast, if you picked up a Dragon Cohort but didn't make it your Paladin Mount, your Dragonnel could take 10 character class levels, or it could be a Wyvern with 7 class levels, or a young Brass with 5...even a few class levels can grant a huge jump in power if they're the right classes.

(As an aside, a pure Paladin Mount would arguably be weaker than both options. The above character could get a Dragonnel with 6 bonus HD, or a very young Bronze with 4 bonus HD (though you'd probably switch that out for something CG, pending DM approval)).

Also, please note that I'm assuming that your DM rules that combining a mount with a cohort in this way means that you can choose more powerful mounts without paying by taking a lower effective paladin level. This is far from obvious, and should not be assumed. Your DM could also interpret the rules as saying that your Dragonnel mount still counts as a Dragonnel Paladin Mount, and gains only 6 bonus HD. This would free up two levels of classes, unless your DM requires that your Paladin Mount must still be typical of its kind, in which case you're screwed. So it's really important to clarify how all this works with your DM.


I'm wondering about draconomicon's Dragon Steed.
It gives me a dragonnel (which I shall change into better looking random dragon picture to save me a killing spree).

But I dont really understand how it would interact with a paladin.

aparently, it has 6HD at start. and paladin gives it some more HD.

what I dont get is a few things...
It starts out large and when it reaches 13 HD it becomes huge right?


If I were to go full paladin, that would be at lvl 15. I would have a huge Dragonnel. Right?

Nope! It only becomes huge at 13 HD if it's advancing by hit dice like a monster. But you can't have it do that, because then it wouldn't be typical of its kind. Instead, Paladin adds bonus Hit Dice. These don't increase it's size, but they also aren't limited by the advancement entry, so if you can find a way to go past 18 HD you can do so.



Is there any way in which to increase the dragonnel's hit dice? not including ubermount shenanigans (that feat with beastmaster/druid lvls)

(assuming im taking 1 lvl in barbarian, 5 in paladin, 2 in fighter and 10 in cavalier. that would leave me with 2 lvls. Im trying to make a charge build, and want a survivable mount... and something tells me that 14HD at lvl 20 will end up being a bit low...).

Not easily. Supermount is the easiest way to do it. IIRC there isn't something like Practiced Spellcaster for Paladin Mounts, so you can't just boost your effective Paladin level. Basically the only option is to take more levels that advance your Paladin Mount. That build still has two levels left, though, not enough to bump up your category on the Paladin Mount table.



Also is it possible to apply the warbeast template to a dragon steed? whats people's view on such a thing?

The only one of these things that can be a warbeast is the Drakkensteed, since Dragons don't qualify. Note that you can't have a warbeast as a Paladin Mount or Animal Companion or Wild Cohort, and you can't make a preexisting creature into a Warbeast (it's a common misinterpretation, but if you read the template thoroughly you'll see Warbeasts have to be born that way).



Another question that popped up. given the dragonnel entry, nowhere does it say how many ranks it has in each skill... does it mean as soon as I get one, I calculate skills as if I had levelled it from lvl 1?

This is covered in my Monster Handbook. Broadly, it does say how many ranks it has in each skill, the information is just implicit, not explicit.




and as a last question... is there any way than paladin progression to raise Intellect on the mount? (other than spending points every 4 HD) I want my draconic steed to be able to at least be average intelligence (10+ int)

By default, Paladin Mounts have increased Int, though generally not 10+. Of course, a Headband of Intellect or the like works fine on them.



And with another edit again >< so many questions...
Is it worth getting riding boots? (not phrashed correctly... x1 more to charge is op. what I am asking... is if its worth NOT taking ride-by attack and using the one provided by these boots.)
Would I be screwed if i entered a non magic zone? (since cav and spirited charge require ride-by attack.... it woull null both from what I read).

You'd be screwed in a non-magic zone no matter what. As a melee character, most of your AC and a big chunk of your accuracy comes from magic.

That said, many DMs don't like it when you get prerequisites from items, so keep that in mind.

[Jormengand]

any reccomendations on feats/etc?

So far the ones on my list are weapon focus (lance), Mounted Combat, Ride-By attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, Shocktrooper, Dragon Cohort.

Headlong Rush is a must. Improved Initiative and things like Quick Recconoiter and Danger Sense are useful, too, if you have the feat slots.

If you can sneak Psychic Warrior into your build, and shout "Psionic Lion's Chaaaaaaaarge!!!!!" at anything that gets in your way, that would be funny but not essential.

[D4rkh0rus]

thank you very much Urpriest. I would go Human. But I would have the feat for dragon steed. Would dragonnel + 8HD suffice at lvl 18-20?

[Urpriest]

thank you very much Urpriest. I would go Human. But I would have the feat for dragon steed. Would dragonnel + 8HD suffice at lvl 18-20?

Ok remember, Dragonnel+8 HD is probably the second-most liberal interpretation of the interaction between Cohort and Paladin Mount rules. Have you asked your DM about what their interpretation is?

In general, at level 20 your mount is going to be a bit squishy for pretty much any one of these options. But at level 20, most characters are squishy, it's hard to avoid rocket tag. Improved Evasion will help, but in general your mount's survivability at that level is going to come down to buffs, items, and class abilities. Class ability-wise, if you went with Dragon Cohort instead of Dragon Steed your mount might take Warblade or Crusader levels, which would help a lot with survivability.