Possible Divine Rank 0 Level Adjustment?

[Goldfly]

So...
I was thinking that it may be interesting to allow quasi-deities (Divine Rank 0) for play, in a campaign. My question is... Considering the (following) abilities that such a template would grant, what do you imagine would be a suitable Level Adjustment? A glance would tell me about +5, maybe +6, but I figured it would be best to ask for a second opinion.

Outsider type
Max hit points per HD
Greater speed (60 ft. for a medium size biped)
Charisma to AC as a Deflection Bonus
Immunities to transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage and mind-affecting effects.
DR 10/Epic
Fire resistance 5
Spell resistance 32
No aging, and no need to breathe/eat/sleep


It's the immunities, spell resistance, and hit points that I'm most concerned about, personally.

[Clistenes]

Oh, yes. Here's a question I always had...

What ECL is Divine Rank 0, when applied as a template?

Consider two cases:one where the entire party of PCs are Divine Rank 0, and another where only one PC is Divine Rank 0.



I have read that it should be considered an ECL +8 template, with CR +4.

Asgard #6 says that the Quasi-deity template is worth ECL +8

I have found one thread where they discuss it: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ijhg?Le...-Divine-Rank-0 (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ijhg?Level-Adjustment-for-Divine-Rank-0)

And here too: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthr...or-Upper-Krust (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?24384-Question-for-Upper-Krust)

Anyway, you could slap the Dreadnaught, Saint and Fire-Souled templates to the character, and get ECL +8 and CR +8, and a bunch of worthy powers, rather than use the Quasi-deity template.


Those are quotes from Afroakuma's thread.

[Somensjev]

i happened to have the book of templates open

if you look on page 17 there's a list of things, and how they effect LA

so, lets see

damage reduction = +1 (it doesnt say it changes depending on how much you reduce the damage by...)

fire resistance = +.5

spell resistance = +1 (same problem as damage reduction.. i'm gonna assume it's plus one per 5, for a total +6? maybe +1 per 10, or 15..?)

special attack or quality that gives signifigant advantage = +1 (i'll make a list)

immunity to energy drain
immunity to ability drain
immunity to ability damage
immunity to mind-affecting effects (maybe?)
immunity to transmutation (maybe?)
max HP/HD
deflection bonus (maybe?)


if every thing i said is right (dr/sr only giving +1, as per the book's instructions)

it comes to a total 9.5 (round down to nine), which i think is ridiculously high, so i'm probably wrong

[Ernir]

If you want PCs with divine ranks in your campaign, I'd advise against assigning level adjustments. There's no way to appropriately balance divine ranks with respect to class levels - you would not want some of your players running around with pure HD and others with fewer HD + DRs.

So you'd be in the situation where all your PCs have DRs, which means you can just up the challenges across the board and keep playing.

The only reason I'd try to assign a level adjustment to DRs is the one of the campaign being a dedicated "monster campaign" where all the PCs have a LA (but potentially of different races/with different templates). In that case, eyeball it based on the power granted by the races/templates the other players are choosing.

[Spuddles]

I would give it an RP requirement, tie SR to HD, and give it LA3. It looks like a weaker version of the Saint template, IMO, which is only LA 2.

[Red Fel]

Divine Rank is inherently Epic. As soon as you bring Epic rules into a campaign, the regular mechanics tend to go out the window.

Run down the list, for goodness' sake. Outsider type, so already any spells designed to affect humanoids auto-fail. Immunities? Sickeningly potent, particularly against some of the undead that make lower-level encounters truly dangerous. That DR? That covers everything you could encounter before epic levels, and stacks with other forms of DR. Spell resistance? Your characters are now magic-proof.

There is no viable way to challenge a character with these features short of Epic-level encounters. And even with these features, there is no way for a non-Epic character to survive an Epic-level encounter.

It's like a case of being Blessed with Suck (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlessedWithSuck) - characters with these features are simply too potent to be challenged by anything short of Epics, but unless the characters actually have Epic levels, they're too weak to face anything that would challenge them. The game would get really old, really fast.

[icefractal]

Yeah, LA +2 or +3 seems about right (assuming SR = HD + 10, not a flat 32). The immunities are definitely nice, but comparable to what you get from Necropolitan, which is like LA +0.5; also similar to Pixie (LA +4), but without as many cool toys.



There is no viable way to challenge a character with these features short of Epic-level encounters. And even with these features, there is no way for a non-Epic character to survive an Epic-level encounter.What? Are we reading the same template? For one thing, since when does DR stack? And more importantly, the abilities are just not that huge.

I mean, let's say it was LA +2, and the game was at level 5. So you're maybe a Demigod Paladin 3 (a class which synergizes with the template better than most). Could you still be challenged by CR 5 creatures? Of course!

What are your strong points?
* Immune to most spells and SLAs (which I why I suggested making the SR scale normally instead of flat).
* Good against large numbers of weak attacks.
* Immune to a decent selection of special attacks.
* Good AC.

But what are your weak points?
* Can still be hurt by single large attacks just fine.
* No protection against grappling, battlefield control, etc.
* Offense is low.

So, some creatures:
* Greater Barghest with a Greataxe - sneaks up with invisibility, buffs up, lays the smack on you for 4d6+14 per attack. Even with max HP, you have maybe 36 - you could be dead in one round!
* Giant Constrictor Snake - grapples you with +23. At d8+10, the constriction would take a while to kill you, but you'll have a hard time getting out with +7 to grapple.
* Bearded Devil - Your DR really helps, but Infernal Wound is still dangerous. And it has DR of its own.

That's CR 5, hardly epic. I think you may be overstating how powerful the template is.

[Goldfly]

If you want PCs with divine ranks in your campaign, I'd advise against assigning level adjustments. There's no way to appropriately balance divine ranks with respect to class levels - you would not want some of your players running around with pure HD and others with fewer HD + DRs.

So you'd be in the situation where all your PCs have DRs, which means you can just up the challenges across the board and keep playing.

The only reason I'd try to assign a level adjustment to DRs is the one of the campaign being a dedicated "monster campaign" where all the PCs have a LA (but potentially of different races/with different templates). In that case, eyeball it based on the power granted by the races/templates the other players are choosing.
I would certainly agree, were it Divine Rank 1 or above, but... Divine Rank 0 isn't really all that much, assuming that you don't allow the character to gain further Divine Ranks. Bar the SR, I'd argue that it's not worth as much as... any class levels, really. The bonuses just aren't as good as, say, a few levels in Sorcerer, for the most part.


I would give it an RP requirement, tie SR to HD, and give it LA3. It looks like a weaker version of the Saint template, IMO, which is only LA 2.
Tieing SR to HD probably is a good idea, yeah. 32 is a bit... much, probably. And a strange number to choose, at that.


Divine Rank is inherently Epic. As soon as you bring Epic rules into a campaign, the regular mechanics tend to go out the window.

Run down the list, for goodness' sake. Outsider type, so already any spells designed to affect humanoids auto-fail. Immunities? Sickeningly potent, particularly against some of the undead that make lower-level encounters truly dangerous. That DR? That covers everything you could encounter before epic levels, and stacks with other forms of DR. Spell resistance? Your characters are now magic-proof.

There is no viable way to challenge a character with these features short of Epic-level encounters. And even with these features, there is no way for a non-Epic character to survive an Epic-level encounter.

It's like a case of being Blessed with Suck (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlessedWithSuck) - characters with these features are simply too potent to be challenged by anything short of Epics, but unless the characters actually have Epic levels, they're too weak to face anything that would challenge them. The game would get really old, really fast.

Most of the immunities are granted by other things, actually. Necropolitan or Warforged, namely.
Also, Damage Reduction doesn't stack, if I remember correctly? Rather, you would use whichever is best for the situation at hand. So, if one were to have DR 10/Epic and 5/Bludgeoning, most attacks would only be reduced by 10 hit points, rather than fifteen.

[Somensjev]

Tieing SR to HD probably is a good idea, yeah. 32 is a bit... much, probably. And a strange number to choose, at that.

yeah, 32 is a pretty weird number, they should have just increased it by ten and given a divine rank 0 god the perfect amount of spell resistance

[Xervous]

Obviously, you jest, many mathematicians have told me n is the best number.

[cakellene]

32 souunds like a normal number to me. 20 HD + 10 mod that was discussed earlier + 2 per rank of divinity.

[Somensjev]

Obviously, you jest, many mathematicians have told me n is the best number.

who said anything about the best number? i only mentioned the perfect one

that's the first time i've used coloured text

[Goldfly]

32 souunds like a normal number to me. 20 HD + 10 mod that was discussed earlier + 2 per rank of divinity.

It's not tied to HD in any way, though, as all deities have a base of 32. It's actually 32 + the deity's Divine Rank, but for Divine Rank 0... It's just 32.

[cakellene]

It's not tied to HD in any way, though, as all deities have a base of 32. It's actually 32 + the deity's Divine Rank, but for Divine Rank 0... It's just 32.

I think I read in one of the books that all deities have 20 Outsider HD.

[Goldfly]

I think I read in one of the books that all deities have 20 Outsider HD.


Levels
Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well. These additional character levels beyond an effective character level of 20th follow the rules for epic levels.


That's what's said on the matter. So... Most, but not all. I think Vecna, for example, doesn't have 20 Outsider HD?

[ShurikVch]

Actually, by RAW DvR 0 is LA +0 :smallbiggrin:

Einherjar template from Deities & Demigods don't mentioned LA (both in the book and 3.5 update), thus make it LA +0 :smallcool:

"Einherjar" can be applied to good humanoid with at least 10 levels of Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin or Ranger and give:
Divine Rank: 0
Type(Subtype): Outsider(Good, Extraplanar)
Speed: +30 ft.
Special Qualities: Immune to transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects; damage reduction 10/epic; fire resistance 5; spell resistance 32; immortal.

[Chronos]

The things DR 0 gives you are nice, sure, but all of them can be gotten through other means as well, especially for a full caster. I'd go with what others have said and just not give it at all unless you're giving it to everyone.

Now, DR 1 or higher, that's a different story. But it's significantly harder to go from 0 to 1 than it is to go from mortal to 0.

[AuraTwilight]

Actually, by RAW DvR 0 is LA +0 :smallbiggrin:

Einherjar template from Deities & Demigods don't mentioned LA (both in the book and 3.5 update), thus make it LA +0 :smallcool:.


Or LA --. :P

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's kind of awkward. On the one hand, the immunities are really good. On the other, if you lose more than two or three levels you're almost certainly doomed as a character. It's like being a theurge verses a normal caster. If you leave the SR as is, I'd call it a +3 and feel odd about it-- more than that and you're just useless no matter how much you're immune to. With normal scaling SR, it's probably a +2.

[3WhiteFox3]

It's kind of awkward. On the one hand, the immunities are really good. On the other, if you lose more than two or three levels you're almost certainly doomed as a character. It's like being a theurge verses a normal caster. If you leave the SR as is, I'd call it a +3 and feel odd about it-- more than that and you're just useless no matter how much you're immune to. With normal scaling SR, it's probably a +2.

That's the problem with high defenses without the offense to back it up. After the enemies learn to just ignore you, (or use tactics that exploit whatever weaknesses your defenses have) you will feel awfully useless. I'd say that it's just best to ignore the LA and scale up the offenses of some of the more dangerous enemies to compensate.

[Goldfly]

I'll probably go with SR that scales normally, and say LA +2. Thanks for the help, all~

[ShurikVch]

Or LA --. :P

Nope. Common RAW for templates is: "As base creature, except..."

Unless different LA mentioned explicitly, it must stay the same.

For example, description of the "Einherjar" template also not mentioned any Special Attacks, Skills or Feats. Do you rule it as "SA --, Skills --, Feats --" :smallconfused:

[Just to Browse]

It makes you immune to pretty much all magic except people who can toss down a +13 caster level check. That on its own means you need to have a really high level adjustment (I'm talking around +10 LA), which will in turn make you bad at everything except having a really high SR which is super duper toxic.

If you want something with super divinity powers, get the Saint Template, or just take some levels in Paladin.

[eggynack]

Nope. Common RAW for templates is: "As base creature, except..."

Unless different LA mentioned explicitly, it must stay the same.

For example, description of the "Einherjar" template also not mentioned any Special Attacks, Skills or Feats. Do you rule it as "SA --, Skills --, Feats --" :smallconfused:
Do you have any sort of citation for such a rule, or are you just saying things? There being no apparent skill adjustment means zero skill adjustment. There being no apparent LA means an LA of -, rather than an LA of zero, which means that you just can't play the thing. An LA line is what allows you to play a creature in the first place.

[Karnith]

Do you have any sort of citation for such a rule, or are you just saying things? There being no apparent skill adjustment means zero skill adjustment. There being no apparent LA means an LA of -, rather than an LA of zero, which means that you just can't play the thing. An LA line is what allows you to play a creature in the first place.
Creatures that don't have a Level Adjustment entry in their statblocks are not playable as-written. Because of how templates work, however, templates that don't mention a statistic don't change that statistic. Level adjustment is a statistic that templates can change (much as Type, Speed, Alignment, or Challenge Rating are), and hence templates that don't mention LA don't modify the base creature's LA. The templated creature will still have the LA it had before the application of the template. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#readingATemplate):

A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."
(Emphasis mine)

By the time 3.5 came around, WotC had more or less regularized templates to always include LA adjustments, even if they were simply LA: -, though there are a few templates in 3.5 without LA entries. Most templates from 3.0, however, lack LA entries, because LA wasn't a part of the core 3.0 rules (though some that lack LA entries in the template descriptions proper have level adjustments elsewhere, because 3.0 was silly). The templates obviously weren't intended to be "LA: Same as base creature," but strictly going by what's printed that's what many of them are (though a DM may add a non-zero LA as part of modifying 3.0 content for a 3.5 game).

[Grod_The_Giant]

It makes you immune to pretty much all magic except people who can toss down a +13 caster level check. That on its own means you need to have a really high level adjustment (I'm talking around +10 LA), which will in turn make you bad at everything except having a really high SR which is super duper toxic.
There are plenty of ways for a well-prepared caster to deal with SR: nope foes, and plenty of monsters that don't depend on magic to be a threat (at least before you start getting into high levels). Add on SR's two-edged nature-- enemies can't touch you, but neither can your buddies heal or buff you-- and +10 LA is utterly preposterous.

[Angelalex242]

Well, when you consider Divine Rank 0 vs. Saint, DR 0 is only slightly stronger. LA+3 seems about right. (This also means Half Celestial is just plain stupid. Saint is stronger then Half-C, even if Half-C is only +2 ECL)

[Spuddles]

Well, when you consider Divine Rank 0 vs. Saint, DR 0 is only slightly stronger. LA+3 seems about right. (This also means Half Celestial is just plain stupid. Saint is stronger then Half-C, even if Half-C is only +2 ECL)

Really? Other than feat/RP reqs, I consider Saint stronger, excepting that 32 SR. That's pretty handy. But not overwhelming- some of the nastiest lockdown effects still hit you and a dire bear will still make you a grappled bitch.

[Angelalex242]

Well...let's consider an 'order of operations' here...

There's 'should be strongest' and 'is strongest.'

Should be:Divine Rank 0(Half-God)->Half Celestial->Saint (Moses)

Even if one disagrees about Saint's ranking, Half God should CERTAINLY be better then Half Angel!