Racial HD and True Mind Switch

[geekintheground]

what happens to racial HD when you true mind switch? if im a 17th level human telepath, and use TMS on a shadesteel golem, do i GAIN 18 construct HD? or do those follow the golem into my original body?

[Phelix-Mu]

hmm.

Mind Switch:
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepath 6
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: You and one other creature
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 11, XP

You can attempt to take control of a nearby living creature, forcing your mind (and soul) into its body, and its mind into your body. You can target any creature whose Hit Dice are equal to or less than your manifester level.

You possess the target’s body and force the creature’s mind into your body unless it succeeds on a Will save. You can move your mind back into your own body whenever you desire, which returns the subject’s mind to its own body and ends the power. If the manifestation succeeds, your life force occupies the host body, and the host’s life force takes over yours.

You can call on rudimentary or instinctive knowledge of the subject creature, but not upon its acquired or learned knowledge (such as skills and feats it possesses). The same is true for the subject in your body. The mind switch brings about the following changes.

You gain the type of your assumed body.
You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of your assumed body.
You gain the natural armor, natural attacks, movement, and other simple physical characteristics of your assumed body.
You gain the extraordinary special attacks and qualities of your assumed body, but you do not gain supernatural or spell-like abilities.
You gain the possessions and equipment of your assumed body.
You retain your own hit points, saving throws (possibly modified by new ability scores), class abilities, supernatural and spell-like abilities, spells and powers, and skills and feats (although skill checks use your new ability scores, and you may be temporarily unable to use feats whose requirements you do not meet in your new body).

Supernatural abilities that require a certain body part may be unavailable in your new form.

If either body is killed while the power is in effect, the other participant also dies when the power ends. If one participant’s body becomes petrified, imprisoned by temporal stasis or imprisonment, or incapacitated in some other way, the other participant will be incapacitated in that way when the power ends.

A targeted dispel psionics (or similar spells or effects) successfully manifested on either participant causes both minds to return to their original bodies.
XP Cost

100 XP.
Augment

For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

True Mind Switch:
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepath 9
Manifesting Time: 1 minute
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 17, XP

As mind switch, except as noted here. You permanently exchange bodies with the subject. Since this power’s duration is instantaneous, you cannot be forced to return to your natural body by means of dispel psionics, an antimagic field, or a similar effect. If the subject’s body dies while you are in it, you are dead. The subject immediately loses one level, but otherwise survives the experience in your natural body. If your natural body dies while the subject is in it, you immediately lose one level, but you likewise survive the experience in your new body.

Your “natural” body is always considered to be the last one you switched out of. If you exchange bodies with a chain of multiple subjects, you need worry only about the welfare of the last body you switched with. In other words, if your mind is expelled from your current body, your mind returns to the last body you switched with, not to your original body. Similarly, if your original body dies but you have since switched minds with a second subject, you take no penalty. You lose a level only if the body you inhabited immediately prior to your current body is killed.
XP Cost

10,000 XP.

Seems like the initial intent was only to allow targets with equal to or less HD than the manifester. But they said "manifester level" not "level of the manifester." *facepalm* Due to the ease of optimizing ML at higher levels of optimization, you could easily switch into a body with more HD than you have.

That said, I don't think you should gain the benefits of those HD of the form you've taken on. You keep your own hp, for sure. I think the BAB of a pc is a "class ability" so it seems that that is carried to the new form from the old form.

So that about covers it. The golem that moved into the telepaths body still has 18hd, from what I can tell (though the power seems to unduly ignore the results of what happens to the other person involved in the switch...seems safe to assume it follows the same rules, though).

[geekintheground]

alright, so what would my ECL end up being? assuming the manifester is level 18.

[Emperor Tippy]

alright, so what would my ECL end up being? assuming the manifester is level 18.

Assuming that your ECL before the switch was 18, it would still remain 18 after the switch per the rules.

TMS doesn't ever gain you HD or HP (except for the changed Con score).

What TMS gives you is as follows:

-You gain the type of your assumed body.
-You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of your assumed body.
-You gain the natural armor, natural attacks, movement, and other simple physical characteristics of your assumed body.
-You gain the extraordinary special attacks and qualities of your assumed body, but you do not gain supernatural or spell-like abilities.
-You gain the possessions and equipment of your assumed body.
-You retain your own hit points, saving throws (possibly modified by new ability scores), class abilities, supernatural and spell-like abilities, spells and powers, and skills and feats (although skill checks use your new ability scores, and you may be temporarily unable to use feats whose requirements you do not meet in your new body).

If its not one of those things then you don't get it.

[Phelix-Mu]

alright, so what would my ECL end up being? assuming the manifester is level 18.

You don't actually gain the full benefit of being the creature that you steal the body from, so I'm not sure you should acquire the full normal LA. In fact, you might not deserve any LA, as you likely spent 10,000xp for the privilege of the switch. At least if you aren't thought-bottling your way out of it.

This isn't really covered by the power. By RAW, it looks like your ECL remains the same. The telepath would remain ECL 18 even if s/he true mindswitched with the tarrasque.

Are the rules stupid? Yes.

EDIT: I've been waiting a long time to say this...Tippy'd. :smallbiggrin:

[geekintheground]

thats awesome, thanks guys!

[cakellene]

Is it possible to do this without actuaslly being a manifester yourself?

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm sure it's possible for non-manifesters. For a start, cross-class UPD and optimize a check for a power stone. I think that works. The power stone can probably be acquired at ludicrously low-level by the normal wbl-defying tricks. Bonus points for making the DC for the mind switch stratospheric.

Hmm. Tippy has a trick, no doubt.

Oh, right. Well, I guess there needs to be a 17th level telepath out there, but there are tricks that will get you an ice assassin of that telepath. Once you have one, you just need a way to supply the experience (like liquid pain, maybe?) or some such. And this is only implied, as ice assassin makes no comment on if the copy can spend experience (or even has such a resource).

[sleepyphoenixx]

As long as you can get your hands on a power stone of True Mind Switch it shouldn't be a problem.
Getting the necessary UPD checks can easily be done even with 0 ranks in the skill as long as you have access to a few cleric spells (Wieldskill, Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar).
You don't even need to cast them yourself.
Without those it takes a little more dedication but it's still possible.

[Phelix-Mu]

As long as you can get your hands on a power stone of True Mind Switch it shouldn't be a problem.
Getting the necessary UPD checks can easily be done even with 0 ranks in the skill as long as you have access to a few cleric spells (Wieldskill, Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar).
You don't even need to cast them yourself.
Without those it takes a little more dedication but it's still possible.

Really, when we look at "what is possible with magic allowed," we really have to set the bar pretty high or else it's just "yeah, that works." I'm going to have a thought experiment about cyborg t-rexes with laser eyes and how to make it a reality with magic in 3.5. I imagine there are at least 3 methods that are well within the rules.

[Emperor Tippy]

Really, when we look at "what is possible with magic allowed," we really have to set the bar pretty high or else it's just "yeah, that works." I'm going to have a thought experiment about cyborg t-rexes with laser eyes and how to make it a reality with magic in 3.5. I imagine there are at least 3 methods that are well within the rules.

What level?

I mean you can do an Origin of the Species with Epic Spellcasting.

Then you have making a T-Rex statute and doing an Animate Objects + TMS to stuff an Ardent with Magic Mantle and Occular spell into it. Take Energy Missile and you have your laser eyes.

Then there is TMSing a Great Wyrm Red dragon into your T-Rex body. It keeps its supernatural abilities which means that it keeps the Breath Weapon. Metal T-Rex that breaths fire for the lulz.