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PaintByBlood
2013-12-20, 02:28 PM
I haven't been exposed to enough things in general, but one thing I have never found myself impressed by is how the systems I've looked through handle Martial Arts. Some of them just seem to throw up their hands and leave it to fluff (which is understandable, but I hope for something "better"), some make a strong attempt, but it isn't as flexible or varied as I might like.
Has anyone out there seen a mechanical take on Martial Arts that they were really impressed by? Realistic or fantasy are both fair game here, I'd just like to see something where the different styles are distinct, cover the main bases you might want to use, and don't end up convoluted or useless. (I'm aware of D&D3.5e's Tome of Battle and Pathfinder's [upcoming?] supplement in the same vein, before those get mentioned.)

Spiryt
2013-12-20, 02:44 PM
Well, there are things like Riddle of Steel, for somehow detailed combat.

In most systems, trying to get more 'detailed' would probably end with cluster#!#@ like Grapple rules in 3.5.

A_Man
2013-12-20, 02:46 PM
Hero system has a rather detailed martial arts mechanic, albeit they vary from worthless to remarkably potent.

PaintByBlood
2013-12-20, 02:58 PM
I don't really mean that I've got my eye out for something detailed in a mechanical sense, but that I'd like to see someone try and elegantly cover every angle. I'd like one player to be able to fight with the Wing Chun style against some NPC ninja that is focusing on Aikido maneuvers (or a fantasy equivalent of these) and feel like both styles are being well represented.
I'd also like to see the more fantasy-oriented attacks like pressure-point striking (that is, the fiction-enhanced version, though the real version as well) have dramatic effects like disabling someone's ability to use their hands or use magic rather than simply amounting to a -2 to this or that.

This might require a detailed system, but if there is something out there that handles it elegantly I'd love to see it.

(My apologies if any of what I write seems off-base or a little disorganized. That may be due to my job currently leaving me running on pure caffeine.)

Terraoblivion
2013-12-20, 03:01 PM
Sounds like you're only referring to unarmed martial arts, which seems needlessly limiting. Especially since the martial arts tradition depicted the most in fiction, kung-fu, relies heavily on armed martial arts.

LibraryOgre
2013-12-20, 03:08 PM
I think my favorite was from 2e's Combat and Tactics. Martial Arts was 4 different forms, each of which could be mixed and matched together. Type A was punching. Type B was Kicking. Type C was Throws. Type D was movement. Proficiency in the martial art gave you some bonuses, but still left you fighting unarmed against people with weapons (i.e. your damage, while better than a standard person, was still about 3/4 temporary and attacking an armed person while unarmed left you open to getting sliced from gizzard to zorch). Specialization in one of the styles allowed you to fight people with weapons... but someone with a weapon who had likewise specialized was probably STILL going to settle your hash.

For example, a starting Fighter might go Martial Arts and specialize in B, be proficient in A and D... that's his 4 WP slots. He's a pretty frightening character, this guy; he can kick 3 times every 2 rounds (1d6+2 damage), throw in a punch (1d3 damage) every round without invoking the penalties for two weapons (that being a benefit of style B). He can do this against any opponent (normally, you can't pummel creatures too much larger than you in C&T; consider the effect of punching an elephant; being able to pummel anyone of any size is a benefit of style A). Because he's got style D, he gets a -2 bonus to Armor Class, and can make a free block each round. Because he's specialized in any martial arts form, he can attack armed opponents without attacks of opportunity, and he can block armed opponents without penalty. He can, at 1st level, throw 2-3 attacks a round, plus a free block, and has an 8 AC on top of his Dex bonus.

But put him against a man in armor. Also a 1st level fighter, concindentally with identical stats, but who instead specialized in Long sword and wears Chain mail and a shield. Chainmail Dude can only do 1-2 attacks per round, but they do 1d8+2 damage. He's also got an AC of 4, compared to Martial Arts guy's 8. And that assumes Chainmail guy didn't specialize in his armor, shield, or weapon and shield style.

IMO, unarmed martial arts should be useful but, given equal training and stats, should usually fall to the person who remembered to bring a knife to the knife fight.

PaintByBlood
2013-12-20, 03:10 PM
Sounds like you're only referring to unarmed martial arts, which seems needlessly limiting. Especially since the martial arts tradition depicted the most in fiction, kung-fu, relies heavily on armed martial arts.

Very true. That has been the focus of my thinking, I suppose largely because most of my favorite styles focus on unarmed combat as well.
But you're right, that is absolutely needlessly limiting. I suppose an ideal system could/would combine unarmed and armed combat into a flexible whole. So definitely ignore my focus on the unarmed.

TheCountAlucard
2013-12-20, 03:41 PM
Exalted 2e tried pretty hard to capture the wuxia feel, and even did so a couple of times. I'm eagerly awaiting the upcoming third edition to try and get it right.

Terraoblivion
2013-12-20, 03:52 PM
Very true. That has been the focus of my thinking, I suppose largely because most of my favorite styles focus on unarmed combat as well.
But you're right, that is absolutely needlessly limiting. I suppose an ideal system could/would combine unarmed and armed combat into a flexible whole. So definitely ignore my focus on the unarmed.

Several systems for that exist. But the ones I know about mostly center around wuxia martial arts, rather than the kind you could see at a real tournament or a martial arts movie, so they tend to be rather more fantastical and over the top.

That said, Legends of the Wulin is great for that, including with a lot of variety in its styles. Absolutely unrealistic and doesn't attempt to be anything else, but also really good in most ways.

Glimbur
2013-12-20, 04:53 PM
Check out the Street Fighter RPG, by White Wolf. Every character chooses a style, and that affects how possible (or expensive) it is to learn various moves. It it not trying to be realistic, but if you are looking for all the ideas you can find that is an option.

It does have an unarmed focus though.

Frozen_Feet
2013-12-20, 05:01 PM
Twilight 2000 has pretty impressive rules for firearms combat.

Overall, I've not played a game that could really capture feel of style differences. Interestingly, D&D has become worse at it since AD&D - 1st and 2nd edition had special rules for unarmed combat as well as things like weapon vs. armor tables and weapon speed. When the game was cleaned up for 3 ed, many differences between weapons and fighting styles were lost. While theoretically feats and skills would've allowed for quite significant modeling of different combat styles, I feel attempts to do so were lackluster. Tome of Battle almost got it, but screwed up in that it made actual choice of weapon even less relevant.

I'd say my greatest disappointments are that systems with large variety lack realism, while systems with otherwise working combat systems lack granularity. As a martial artist and a fan of historical swordmanship, it's somewhat sad that my real-life knowledge on the subjects is so often either inapplicable or irrelevant. Fortunately, there's effort made by Guy Windsor et all to fix this.

Plus, there's always LARPing. :smallcool:

Rhynn
2013-12-20, 05:19 PM
Cyberpunk 2020, and by extension Fuzion, has a very simple way to make a distinction between martial arts styles: each style is a skill, and each style has a different learning difficulty (easier to master boxing than aikido), and gives a bonus (+1 to +4) to a variety of the dozen or so maneuvers that exist (e.g. dodge, parry, punch, kick, sweep, disarm, throw). In addition, some styles can be used to wield specific weapons.

The smart 'punk, of course, learns boxing and judo, getting the benefits of the best styles for a smaller cost (although in chargen it's cheaper to get one of the difficult styles). Realistic enough for me, because boxing does teach you how to do the basics (footwork & punching) very effectively...

There's some outliers with their own issues, like Panzerfaust, the cyborg martial art that lets a full 'borg literally punch through APCs and knock the heads off powered armor suits much bigger than him-/herself. (And some outliers with in-character issues, like Arasaka-te, a corporate-created martial art created that doesn't do anything very well...)

Of course, the actual combat system is often vague and a little confusing, especially as it comes to melee combat... but CP2020 is one of those old-school games where you can't get hung up on the rules, they're just a framework.

I'm away from my books right now, but the Fuzion-based Sengoku has IIRC a slightly different take on differentiating martial arts.

Spiryt
2013-12-20, 05:21 PM
Cyberpunk 2020, and by extension Fuzion, has a very simple way to make a distinction between martial arts styles: each style is a skill, and each style has a different learning difficulty (easier to master boxing than aikido), .

Aw man, every connoisseur/adept of Sweet Science would go down hard on those guys and their heresies. :smallwink:

Metahuman1
2013-12-20, 05:28 PM
Off hand, Mutants and Master Minds being heavy on fluff can do a fair number of things with a martial arts theme if you wanna go there.

Alternatively, I've never played it, but Anima: Beyond Fantasy has a detailed section of martial arts options for PC's. No idea how well it holds up in practice though.

Edit: Now that I think about it, Doesn't Shadowrun allow for characters who focus primarily on unarmed combat for fights?

Kalmageddon
2013-12-20, 05:54 PM
There is the "Blood and Fists" manual for d20 Modern. It's a handbook entirely dedicated to martial arts, with various styles, manouvers, prestige classes, feats and so on.
It's actually pretty great, if not for the fact that the d20 Modern system itself is not loved by many. If, however, you don't mind tweaking the sistem a little to fit your needs I'd say it's what you're looking for.

Oracle_Hunter
2013-12-20, 07:13 PM
I've actually been thinking about making a bespoke Martial Arts RPG but concluded that the granularity it would require would basically swallow the game.

At a first approximation, it would have Traits (e.g. Speed, Strength, Reaction) which would provide dice modified by the Stance chosen by the Character (e.g. "Springing Snake" Stance is Speed x5, Strength x1, Reaction x3). Then you could roll those dice and allocate successes to cause a given attack to have whatever effects you desire. "I have 3 Speed Success so I'm going to use 2 of them to gain Initiative on the attack and the 3rd for Superior Position. I have 2 Strength Successes so I'll use one for Defense Breaching and one for Damage. My 1 Reaction Success I'll leave in Dodge to avoid the Attack."

But yeah, most attempts to capture the whole interplay of any combat system end up consuming all the possible play-time available in a given game. Or are a lot of effort for very little return.

PaintByBlood
2013-12-20, 09:17 PM
Off hand, Mutants and Master Minds being heavy on fluff can do a fair number of things with a martial arts theme if you wanna go there.

Alternatively, I've never played it, but Anima: Beyond Fantasy has a detailed section of martial arts options for PC's. No idea how well it holds up in practice though.

Edit: Now that I think about it, Doesn't Shadowrun allow for characters who focus primarily on unarmed combat for fights?
Yes, but Shadowrun is one of the ones I have a problem with. You can specialize in a martial art, but all it does is give you a +2 bonus to your unarmed combat skill. There is mechanically no difference between different martial arts, and it is all resigned to fluff.
This is an understandable route, absolutely, but I'd like to explore the options that don't take that route. (Note, this is going by Shadowrun 5e, so may be limited. Sorry, its the only one I've played!)

Lot of things for me to take a look at now, though! (Again! I'm not going to have much of a winter break.)

TheThan
2013-12-20, 09:57 PM
lets see, dragon magazine has animal style kung fu.
i don't recall what number it's in number 319 may 2004.

Thrudd
2013-12-20, 11:56 PM
I've actually been thinking about making a bespoke Martial Arts RPG but concluded that the granularity it would require would basically swallow the game.

At a first approximation, it would have Traits (e.g. Speed, Strength, Reaction) which would provide dice modified by the Stance chosen by the Character (e.g. "Springing Snake" Stance is Speed x5, Strength x1, Reaction x3). Then you could roll those dice and allocate successes to cause a given attack to have whatever effects you desire. "I have 3 Speed Success so I'm going to use 2 of them to gain Initiative on the attack and the 3rd for Superior Position. I have 2 Strength Successes so I'll use one for Defense Breaching and one for Damage. My 1 Reaction Success I'll leave in Dodge to avoid the Attack."

But yeah, most attempts to capture the whole interplay of any combat system end up consuming all the possible play-time available in a given game. Or are a lot of effort for very little return.

I've come to the same conclusion. Any system attempting to mechanically represent what really makes fighting styles different would be too cumbersome to play.

Rhynn
2013-12-21, 12:05 AM
I've come to the same conclusion. Any system attempting to mechanically represent what really makes fighting styles different would be too cumbersome to play.

Even trying to quantify what makes them different is sort of a crazy undertaking.

For instance, how does Wing Chun differ, in (system-agnostic) game terms, from Choy Li Fut? How does Karate differ from Taekwondo? Nevermind how "karate" is almost meaningless in this context; are we talking American McDojo kids' karate, or Okinawa-te, or Kyukushin Kaikan? And so on.

Arbitrary or artificial differences, though, can be quite easy. (Like CP2020.)

Thrudd
2013-12-21, 03:00 AM
Even trying to quantify what makes them different is sort of a crazy undertaking.

For instance, how does Wing Chun differ, in (system-agnostic) game terms, from Choy Li Fut? How does Karate differ from Taekwondo? Nevermind how "karate" is almost meaningless in this context; are we talking American McDojo kids' karate, or Okinawa-te, or Kyukushin Kaikan? And so on.

Arbitrary or artificial differences, though, can be quite easy. (Like CP2020.)

Exactly. That's a whole other discussion which is debated endlessly on forums devoted to martial arts. How to quantify and represent each style in a game would depend entirely on the experience and opinion of the designer. Superficial differences in styles is just about the only thing that I have ever seen a game attempt to represent.

Rhynn
2013-12-21, 03:04 AM
Exactly. That's a whole other discussion which is debated endlessly on forums devoted to martial arts. How to quantify and represent each style in a game would depend entirely on the experience and opinion of the designer. Superficial differences in styles is just about the only thing that I have ever seen a game attempt to represent.

I wouldn't call CP2020's differences, for instance, superficial; having a +4 to punches is a fairly big deal, for instance.

But yeah, at best, these differences are ultimately arbitrary.

That's not to say a game system can't have meaningful differences between combat styles; The Riddle of Steel is a great example.

Thrudd
2013-12-21, 03:38 AM
I wouldn't call CP2020's differences, for instance, superficial; having a +4 to punches is a fairly big deal, for instance.

But yeah, at best, these differences are ultimately arbitrary.

That's not to say a game system can't have meaningful differences between combat styles; The Riddle of Steel is a great example.

What I meant by that is the fact many stylistic differences, as commonly perceived even by martial artists, are ultimately superficial. That a game would give one style +4 to punch and another +4 to kick, for instance, is reflective of a superficial or very basic understanding of the martial arts systems. This may be the best that can be accomplished by a playable game, however.

Frozen_Feet
2013-12-21, 06:17 AM
Thrudd, that's one of those statements that's both true and false at the same time. Giving a kicking-focused art a bonus to kicks is perfectly sensible. It's "superficial" in the sense that it's immediately noticeable, but it's also a relevant quality of that art. But yeah, if we go into deep stuff like strategy, minor differences in hand or foot positioning, training methods etc., most RPGs can't even begin to model those in a mechanically relevant level.

Thrudd
2013-12-21, 08:23 AM
Thrudd, that's one of those statements that's both true and false at the same time. Giving a kicking-focused art a bonus to kicks is perfectly sensible. It's "superficial" in the sense that it's immediately noticeable, but it's also a relevant quality of that art. But yeah, if we go into deep stuff like strategy, minor differences in hand or foot positioning, training methods etc., most RPGs can't even begin to model those in a mechanically relevant level.

Yes, true and false at the same time, it depends where you are looking. It isn't that an art which specializes in kicks shouldn't get a bonus on kicks...but after enough time spent in any art, the initial focus of that art becomes less relevant. Many paths up the mountain and all that. All well-rounded martial artists will eventually have a bonus on kicks, strikes, throws and holds, be able to take some hits and falls, learn good positioning and evasion, as well as proficiency with at least a weapon or two. So it depends on what level we're talking about.

By "superficial", I mean the model of saying one style is good at kicks and another at hands and another at throws is modeling a beginner level of practice, or the view of someone looking from the outside in, though I suppose it does depend on the art. Sport styles do tend to specialize heavily around their rule-set and exclude many fighting strategies, and many modern styles have lost their holistic approach to fighting as hand to hand combat has fallen out of use.

To be truly realistic, the most experienced martial artist characters (who we must assume are involved in real combat and not sport fighting) would have fewer differences than similarities in their skills. Their most relevant differences will be in natural physical attributes and conditioning rather than combat skills. The difference in gameplay would be at inexperienced levels, modeling someone beginning their martial arts journey, where the various styles' approaches to teaching are most divergent. As the years go on, a good style will have taught all relevant skills for fighting regardless of where they started. Maybe each style would have one or two feats or tricks unique to it, but even that is questionable in reality. More like one style teaches you to kick and punch first, and you get throws and holds a little later. Another style does heavy body training up front so you get the bonus to toughness first, and the yet another begins with evasive footwork. After sufficient training, you have all the skills and the individual matters more than the style. How to model martial arts in a game depends on what level of expertise we expect the characters to start at and to eventually reach.

TheCountAlucard
2013-12-21, 10:23 AM
Robert Vance, framing the martial arts styles of Exalted Third Edition in the familiar story of a bunch of martial arts masters sitting down to eat soup together…


• The Snake stylist delivers a withering flurry of fang strikes to the surface of his soup, disrupting the flow of chi across the meniscus of its surface tension before finally taking a sip using his spoon. Then he takes a moment to suck on his badly scalded fingertips.

• The Tiger stylist waits for the soup to flee from his menacing offense. After a few minutes of the bowl of soup taking no action to retreat, he gets annoyed and smashes it to the ground with a claw strike, then laps it up.

• The Righteous Devil stylist takes a long, long moment to glare at the soup, and finally pronounces it innocent. He saddles up and rides off into the sunset, looking for another town, and another souphouse.

• The Single Point Shining Into The Void stylist picks up his spoon from the napkin and manages to spoon the entire bowl of soup into his mouth in a single motion.

• The Heaven's Ladder stylist insists on eating his soup with a ladder rather than a spoon. Somehow, this works.

• The Black Claw stylist swallows a spoonful of soup before blowing on it, and makes a great display of how his tongue has been burnt. The hearts of everyone in attendance go in sympathy out to the Black Claw stylist, and they curse the wicked soup that would scorch so fair a tongue!

• The Crane stylist waits for the soup to make the first move, passing the time by idly discussing philosophy with his meal. After a few hours, everyone else is done and ready to go, but the Crane stylist has found the soup to have a rather charming and insightful personality.

• The Dreaming Pearl Courtesan stylist is too busy murdering someone with a razor-edged silver spoon to properly attend to her soup—by the time her victim's corpse has been disposed of and the unfortunate flecks of scarlet scrubbed from her kimono, it's gotten entirely too cold!

• The Ebon Shadow stylist hides under the table, and takes spoonfuls out of everyone else's bowls of soup.

• The Silver-Voiced Nightingale stylist manages to reach a pitch that shatters his bowl, and sends the soup flying in every direction. He manages to catch every droplet in his mouth before a single one hits the ground. When soup moves, he moves—just like that!

• The White Reaper stylist orders a dozen bowls of soup, and chugs them down one after another with a terrifying ferocity.

Oracle_Hunter
2013-12-21, 11:12 AM
In other news, I figured a new method to attempt a Martial Arts RPG: Custom Dice.

This is a new-ish style of RPG, made popular by Fantasy Flight's Warhammer Fantasy and Edge of Empire but it is eminently suited for translating subtle differences between styles into a RPG.

A fight between the "Big Hits, Big Misses" School and the "Crippling Blow" School could have one side throw dice which are equally "Massive Damage" and "Miss" faces while the other throws dice with "Critical Hits" and "Minor Damage" faces (and a few Misses). To simulate fighting a more evasive school you have to throw Evasion Dice when you make your attack (made up of Blank and Miss faces).

Yes, this means the entire RPG will basically be about Kung Fu Fighting but skin it with a Romance of the Three Kingdoms vibe... :smallamused:

CombatOwl
2013-12-21, 12:07 PM
I haven't been exposed to enough things in general, but one thing I have never found myself impressed by is how the systems I've looked through handle Martial Arts. Some of them just seem to throw up their hands and leave it to fluff (which is understandable, but I hope for something "better"), some make a strong attempt, but it isn't as flexible or varied as I might like.
Has anyone out there seen a mechanical take on Martial Arts that they were really impressed by? Realistic or fantasy are both fair game here, I'd just like to see something where the different styles are distinct, cover the main bases you might want to use, and don't end up convoluted or useless. (I'm aware of D&D3.5e's Tome of Battle and Pathfinder's [upcoming?] supplement in the same vein, before those get mentioned.)

Fate can be hacked for martial-arts focused games pretty easily. Different styles emphasize creating different situation aspects with Create an Advantage. You can give people styles (either as a collection of stunts, or as a custom extra), everyone has their own aspects, of course... if you really want to hack it deeply, adjust the skills to emphasize different sorts of martial arts, etc.

Anima works okay if you want over-the-top martial arts with energy blasts and shields and ultimate techniques and such.

skyth
2013-12-21, 12:35 PM
I'll second the recomendation of the Hero System. Heck, they even statted up 'Football' as a martial art and it makes sense. Add in the stuff from the Ninja Hero book and you're golden.

Thrudd
2013-12-21, 05:25 PM
In other news, I figured a new method to attempt a Martial Arts RPG: Custom Dice.

This is a new-ish style of RPG, made popular by Fantasy Flight's Warhammer Fantasy and Edge of Empire but it is eminently suited for translating subtle differences between styles into a RPG.

A fight between the "Big Hits, Big Misses" School and the "Crippling Blow" School could have one side throw dice which are equally "Massive Damage" and "Miss" faces while the other throws dice with "Critical Hits" and "Minor Damage" faces (and a few Misses). To simulate fighting a more evasive school you have to throw Evasion Dice when you make your attack (made up of Blank and Miss faces).

Yes, this means the entire RPG will basically be about Kung Fu Fighting but skin it with a Romance of the Three Kingdoms vibe... :smallamused:

Could be cool. Throwing a handful of dice which cover all the variables at the same time could solve the problem of complexities weighing down combat. And throw in a bonus die with extra damage if you describe a cool stunt or cleverly use the environment for improvised weapons. Bonus reroll if you actually perform the maneuver you describe for your character. :smallsmile:

Jay R
2013-12-22, 03:12 PM
I'm quite happy with the Martial Arts mechanics in Hero System. It allows you to build a martial art, and I've seen credible versions of kung fu. boxing, judo, etc.

For a magazine article, somebody even built a Three Stooges martial art.

The weakness of the Hero System is that it requires basic mathematics in character creation (not during the game), which some people don't enjoy. But it makes an extremely powerful and flexible system.

Oracle_Hunter
2013-12-22, 03:31 PM
The weakness of the Hero System is that it requires basic mathematics in character creation (not during the game), which some people don't enjoy. But it makes an extremely powerful and flexible system.
You say "basic" I say "this game would play better mediated by a computer" :smalltongue:

TuggyNE
2013-12-22, 08:00 PM
The weakness of the Hero System is that it requires basic mathematics in character creation (not during the game), which some people don't enjoy.

Just for reference… by "basic" do you mean "add two or three single-digit numbers together", "add or subtract three or four positive or negative single-digit numbers", "add, multiply, subtract, or divide four or five single- or double-digit numbers together" or "solve for X in this pair of polynomial equations"? Because I know different people have different assumptions of what constitutes "basic" math, which sometimes leads to unnecessary acrimony.

Jay R
2013-12-22, 08:17 PM
You say "basic" I say "this game would play better mediated by a computer" :smalltongue:

Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. Yes, I admit that I consider that basic.

But I also do my character sheets in Excel, like I do my D&D 2E character sheets. There's very little that can't be improved by using a computer.


Just for reference… by "basic" do you mean "add two or three single-digit numbers together", "add or subtract three or four positive or negative single-digit numbers", "add, multiply, subtract, or divide four or five single- or double-digit numbers together" or "solve for X in this pair of polynomial equations"? Because I know different people have different assumptions of what constitutes "basic" math, which sometimes leads to unnecessary acrimony.

Basic arithmetic - adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. Take a basic power effect, for anywhere from 20 to 100 basic points, multiply by a factor for advantages, and divided by a factor for limitations. The factors are fractions with a base denominator of 4.

A common example would be 40 x 3/2 / 2
= 120 / 2 / 2
= 60 / 2
= 30
The most complicated I've ever had to deal with was 50 points x 7/4, divided by 11/4.

This is (50 x 7 / 4) / (11 /4)
=350 / 4 /(11 / 4)
=87 / (11 / 4)
= 87 x 4 / 11
= 348 / 11
= 31 7/11 = 32

I did all of that in at my keyboard just now, with no problem, but I usually just use Excel.

Most situations are far less complicated - I just enjoy complicated power structures. You can easily build a great character much more easily.

All this happens before the game. The play is just as simple as any other game.

Some people don't like basic arithmetic, and can't do very simple calculations in Excel. This game is not for them.

TuggyNE
2013-12-22, 09:42 PM
Basic arithmetic - adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. Take a basic power effect, for anywhere from 20 to 100 basic points, multiply by a factor for advantages, and divided by a factor for limitations. The factors are fractions with a base denominator of 4.

A common example would be 40 x 3/2 / 2
= 120 / 2 / 2
= 60 / 2
= 30
The most complicated I've ever had to deal with was 50 points x 7/4, divided by 11/4.

This is (50 x 7 / 4) / (11 /4)
=350 / 4 /(11 / 4)
=87 / (11 / 4)
= 87 x 4 / 11
= 348 / 11
= 31 7/11 = 32

I did all of that in at my keyboard just now, with no problem, but I usually just use Excel.

Most situations are far less complicated - I just enjoy complicated power structures. You can easily build a great character much more easily.

All this happens before the game. The play is just as simple as any other game.

Some people don't like basic arithmetic, and can't do very simple calculations in Excel. This game is not for them.

I see. I have to admit that, while I commonly use Excel (or custom PowerShell scripts, or AnyDice) to derive statistics about probable results or summarized costs for various games (D&D, Battle for Wesnoth, Bloons Tower Defense, etc), the prospect of needing that not only for advanced decisions but for baseline functionality is a bit daunting. I guess I'd have to try it out to be sure.

Oracle_Hunter
2013-12-22, 10:04 PM
Some people don't like basic arithmetic, and can't do very simple calculations in Excel. This game is not for them.
I'll just let you know that (1) there hasn't been a RPG System nearly as complex as HERO that has been introduced since 2000 that continues to sell and (2) as a game designer, I would never build a game that requires Players to make calculations like that as, well, nobody has that kind of time these days.

I mean, I'm glad you enjoy it, but there is a reason that publishers aren't releasing games like HERO anymore :smallsmile:

Jay R
2013-12-22, 11:25 PM
I'll just let you know that (1) there hasn't been a RPG System nearly as complex as HERO that has been introduced since 2000 that continues to sell and (2) as a game designer, I would never build a game that requires Players to make calculations like that as, well, nobody has that kind of time these days.

I mean, I'm glad you enjoy it, but there is a reason that publishers aren't releasing games like HERO anymore :smallsmile:

Of course. That's pretty much what I meant when I said that for a lot of people, the basic arithmetic makes it less fun.

"That kind of time"? I think that's a misunderstanding. I think the issue is how many people have that kind of interest. And just as many people have that kind of interest as ever did, but it was never a lot of people. It's from an gaming era when RPGs were a niche market, not a mass market. Happens I'm in that niche.

skyth
2013-12-23, 12:37 PM
the prospect of needing that not only for advanced decisions but for baseline functionality is a bit daunting. I guess I'd have to try it out to be sure.

You don't need it for baseline functionality. First off, it's only in character creation. Second, it's only if you do something non-baseline.

Your standard energy blast does 1d6 damage for every 5 points you spend to buy the power. That's fairly simple to figure out. If you want your energy blast to do unusual things like punching through armor better or taking longer than normal to activate, then that affects the cost.

Plus, every group has one player that's better than the average at mechanics like this. Whenever I've started a Champions campaign, I've had the other players tell me what they wanted the character to be and I've built the character for them.

However, none of this applies to the martial arts part of the game. It only really applies to powers (Which is a superhero thing). If you want to play just basic hero system with heroic rather than super-heroic characters, then it's all just adding and subtracting rather than any multiplying or any fractions.

Black Jester
2013-12-23, 01:39 PM
The GURPS Martial Arts rules are pretty solid (which should come at no surprise, being GURPS and all), but I admit they are on the edge of rules I personally fin a bit too complex for a game not specifically focused on martial arts..

Martial Arts follow lenses, one for each style. That is, each style is basically a micro-character class (in the 'do what you want, here ae the tolls you could ever need' way GURPS handles character classes) including a handful of skills, and maneuvers. This applies to both armed and unarmed combat styles, and example styles reach from early medieval knightly training to lasersword fencing, and all kinds of 'classic' unarmed martial arts. These skills are used as the base for various extra options and maneuvers which default to the key skill (like longsword for Tallhofer fencing, or Wrestling for a masked mexican wreslter or whatever you like), usually with an initial penalty. If you fight with your longsword, you may learn to make targeted thrusts at your opponent's throat as one of the key moves, for instance, with a default penalty of -9 (I think). But, you can of course improve your distinct maneuvers to overcome the usual penalty and become better and better at your favorite maneuvers.

The number of options are vast (again, that is kind of what one expects from a GURPS supplement after all), as far as I can tell, well researched and implemented (otherwise it wouldn't be up to the usual GURPS quality standard) and for a dedicated game, it is pretty awesome, but it can be overwhelming and drown out the actual game in too much noise (which, again, is pretty much standard for GURPS). Consequently I would recommend using parts of the Martial Arts rules for settings that correspond to them well; you can use some of them for fenicng in a swashbuckler game, or the ruls for all kinds of Kung Fu for an Eastern Action game, but using both in a dungeon crawler in adition to magic or other more or less complex subsystems might be bit too much.

Isamu Dyson
2013-12-23, 03:26 PM
I mean, I'm glad you enjoy it, but there is a reason that publishers aren't releasing games like HERO anymore :smallsmile:

Because you have a ton of open-ended versatility with just one (or two) books instead of dozens of books? Seems like that model, while good for the consumer, is bad for profit.

CombatOwl
2013-12-23, 03:44 PM
For those interested in Fate Core for martial arts...

You can drill down to an impressive amount of detail if that's what the group wants. You can expand "Fists" in several ways--either by breaking it down to a handful of skills, or go to even greater detail by defining each character's martial art as a character in itself (that has skills like "Punch," "Kick," "Block," "Throw," etc). You can give styles their own aspects and stunts, and those stunts can fairly radically expand a fighter's options for what they can do with scenario aspects and creating advantages.

Moreover, Fate Core's combat mechanic can be far more interesting in that it is less about dealing damage and more about creating advantages and exploiting scenario aspects to put people into untenable positions. This is a far, far better method of handling nonlethal combat and sparring than games rooted around lethal damage against piles of hit points.

In addition, the consequences system is a fundamentally better method of handling damage and injury than any hit point system. Especially since it lets you detail the consequences of fighting to a much greater level without really detracting from the play.

The system doesn't have a lot of native support for detailed martial arts, but as with most things it's a fairly simple matter to add such detail yourself. This also makes it easier to work in uncommon or fictional fighting styles, depending on what the genre demands.


Because you have a ton of open-ended versatility with just one (or two) books instead of dozens of books? Seems like that model, while good for the consumer, is bad for profit.

Eh, it's just as easy to release settings, adventures, and supplements for them. Give away the hammer, sell nails to busy DMs...

Oracle_Hunter
2013-12-23, 03:47 PM
Because you have a ton of open-ended versatility with just one (or two) books instead of dozens of books? Seems like that model, while good for the consumer, is bad for profit.
And without profit, you go broke :smalltongue:

Anyhoo, my personal belief is that "human calculator" games like HERO are just better implemented directly on computer -- which most playgroups have noticed by either using spreadsheets or off-loading the math to the one guy who likes that stuff. In this day and age, those sorts of games are being made as digital (as opposed to analog) games for just that reason. The future of analog gaming now lies in rules-light Dramatic systems that leverage the freedom of imagination that remains the sole domain of the Pen & Paper RPG.

If you really want another HERO-style game you should get all that math plugged into a Smartphone App and just have everyone in the group buy a copy. Now you don't even need to read about the math to figure out how the game works.

Jay R
2013-12-23, 08:40 PM
If you really want another HERO-style game you should get all that math plugged into a Smartphone App and just have everyone in the group buy a copy. Now you don't even need to read about the math to figure out how the game works.

And throw away the most fun part? No, thanks.

As you already said, this kind of game appeals to a small minority of players. But it does in fact appeal to us.

Oracle_Hunter
2013-12-23, 09:56 PM
And throw away the most fun part? No, thanks.

As you already said, this kind of game appeals to a small minority of players. But it does in fact appeal to us.
And I never doubted it! I'm just saying that appealing to a minority of a minority doesn't make the best business sense :smallsmile:

Rhynn
2013-12-24, 12:29 AM
And I never doubted it! I'm just saying that appealing to a minority of a minority doesn't make the best business sense :smallsmile:

Making a RPG never makes business sense. It barely even does when you're Hasbro and own the largest RPG brand. You're in a field where every single publication makes the market permanently more glutted - I'm still playing with books from the 70s and 80s!

However, if you make the RPG you want to make, and make it as well as you can, rather than compromising your vision all over because you think you might get more people to play that way, you're going to at least create an interesting product and probably get some dedicated fans.

Oracle_Hunter
2013-12-24, 01:00 AM
Making a RPG never makes business sense. It barely even does when you're Hasbro and own the largest RPG brand. You're in a field where every single publication makes the market permanently more glutted - I'm still playing with books from the 70s and 80s!

However, if you make the RPG you want to make, and make it as well as you can, rather than compromising your vision all over because you think you might get more people to play that way, you're going to at least create an interesting product and probably get some dedicated fans.
Replace RPG with Computer Game and you've just described the digital game industry :smalltongue:

No no, new RPGs make plenty of business sense. While you may enjoy the games you started with in the 70s, newcomers to the hobby appreciate a game that takes in the lessons of the past 40 years. I can guarantee you that very few people who start RPGs today decide to pick up Red Box D&D over something like Fate Accelerated or Eclipse Phase and it's not even because finding Red Box rules (or retroclones) are particularly difficult.

That said, you should never feel like you have to compromise your vision to produce a game. But it is worth thinking about whether you make a game for other people to play, or just yourself.

TuggyNE
2013-12-24, 03:18 AM
Replace RPG with Computer Game and you've just described the digital game industry :smalltongue:

Sort of, but at least they have the excuse of better hardware performance to narrow the field down to the last 5-10 years for most people in most cases, though that's starting to lose its effectiveness. (There's also DRM and online services that can be used to trim some middle-aged games from consideration.)

Black Jester
2013-12-24, 04:47 AM
The future of analog gaming now lies in rules-light Dramatic systems that leverage the freedom of imagination that remains the sole domain of the Pen & Paper RPG.

You know, if I didn't knew any better, that would sound a lot like personal preferences dressed as a market analysis.
Seeing the state of current 'rules light dramatic systems' I personally do not think the future is necessarily that bleak. RPGs could still die with some dignity, for instance. Tastes change over time, and occassionally, an overhyped game or the other comes along, is prominent for some time and then mostly disappears again from the more public view, perhaps maintaining a small player base (who are genuinely convinced that the game is worthwhile on its own merits instead of its exagerated prominence for a few years). This happened before, it will happen again (most likely with FATE, the currently most overhyped almost tolerable substitute for a real RPG today). This most likely also happened to HERO (and, to a lesser extend with GURPS), only that the hype was more limited to a specific player group and that its qualities are too similar to GURPS, which has the larger and more active player base, more publications (and, admittedly, a more streamlined design).

Unlike most other hobbies, players starting new RPGs do not usually start cold, but are introduced by other, already active players. The player base of an existing game is basically that game's acquisition department. Most new players do not start completely cold with some system they buy before ever having played, they are introduced to an already established game by an already established player and are more likely to buy into that system, if they enjoy it (that's one of the reason why D&D is so succesful - offering quick gratification, adressing a pretty low common denominator, and already having a comparatively large and active player base). I would be rather surprised if the most common first game purchased by new players about now wouldn't be Pathfinder.
As such, new games are not primarily addressing new players, but already established ones looking for a relevant alternative. This is nothing new; even venerable Runequest was basically built for dissatisfied D&D players.

tensai_oni
2013-12-24, 05:54 AM
Lack of Legend of the Wulin in this thread makes me sad.

If you want martial arts mechanics, this is THE system to go to. Unless you want to be realistic because this is 100% wuxia.

Martial arts form two categories - externals, which is the more standard martial arts-y thing in that it forms the basis of your moves, stances and such, and internals that allow you to perform supernatural things like breathe fire or make your skin hard like iron. You can have only one external active at a time, something resembling a stance system - each one has its own combat stats and special maneuvers you can purchase, as well as (and this is the really martial arts-y thing for me) qualities and descriptions which qualities it fears or laughs at - providing a substantial bonus or penalty.

If you want to play a system where you go "ha ha! Your spinning fist technique may be powerful, but it is no match for my liquid stance method!" and it's actually in the rules and not just as fluff, you can't go wrong with LotW.

Oracle_Hunter
2013-12-24, 10:21 AM
You know, if I didn't knew any better, that would sound a lot like personal preferences dressed as a market analysis.
Seeing the state of current 'rules light dramatic systems' I personally do not think the future is necessarily that bleak.
Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt :smalltongue:

The short form analysis for me is as follows:
RPGs started in the 70s, where the competition for the interests of introverts was light. By a quirk of history, the first successful RPG was descended from a tabletop wargame which meant a crunchy system for figuring out who-hit-who and the precise capabilities of various units.

Through the 90s, RPGs largely followed this trajectory (yes, even oWoD) even as new forms of competition arose. Console and Computer games were becoming more sophisticated and, it turned out, did a much better job at simulating fictional worlds (as far as mechanics go) than the brains of a bunch of teenagers. But their multiplayer capabilities were still limited, so while the RPG lost ground (see: the Decline & Fall of TSR) it wasn't enough to force anyone to change their business model.

Cue the 2000s with WotC infusing the industry with a truckload of MtG money in an advertising blitz that included D&D 3.0, a chain of branded stores, and the start of "living campaigns" which, heretofore, were not seen outside of conventions. This brought a false-life back to the failing corpse the the RPG industry and, thanks to WotC permitting everyone and their dog to piggyback on their brand identity (thanks OGL!) there was a flurry of new products.

Look to today. How many of those d20 products are still flourishing? Exactly one: Pathfinder, a virtual clone of D&D 3.X which has the benefit of the network built up by the MtG money of the 2000s and dare not stray far from that market (see: the withdrawal of the Pathfinder Dice Kickstarter). Likewise, WW and whoever owns Shadowrun now are basically the only remaining "mainstream" games descended from the 1980s RPG Genesis that remain. Why? IMHO the rise of the MMO removed the final advantage those styles of games had over digital entertainment: community. Unlike, say HERO, you can step into WoW and play the game without having a Special Friend able to teach you or even to assemble a group to play at a given time. It gives you virtually the same experience as playing one of these mainstream RPGs from the comfort of your own room on your own schedule.

From that vantage, there is exactly one thing that Pen & Paper RPGs can do that the digital market cannot: tell your own stories. While some companies (e.g. Bioware) have done an exceptional job at making you feel like you are "telling your own story" while playing their games, they are still in the 1990s as far as being able to challenge P&P RPGs on that score. And MMOs have completely failed on this front -- and may never be able to really capture the same feel.

As any businessman or economist can tell you, the best way to deal with competition in a free marketplace is to find your comparative advantage and press it for all you can. In the P&P RPG, that is what is loosely called "narrative" gameplay -- a field of development largely left fallow until the 2000s when The Forge stirred the Indie RPG community into existence. Now people are turning out RPGs that focus on having you tell interesting stories and, for reasons known only to themselves, none of the Big Money Players is making much of a stab in that direction.
So yeah, that's my pitch. And I'd better believe it -- I'm designing that next wave of RPGs and if I'm wrong, then I'm out of a job :smallamused:


Unlike most other hobbies, players starting new RPGs do not usually start cold, but are introduced by other, already active players.
This is actually the weakness of the existing RPG market. You can't start most games cold and have a good time. If you're a 14 year old kid wanting to try this "RPG thing" you heard about you can either have a terrible time for months to years while YOU learn the game well enough to teach other people to play it right or you can bin it and play WoW instead.

Word of mouth worked fine back in the 1970s, but RPGs will go the way of Model Trains as a hobby if they can't be more user friendly than that. To that end I'm making a serious effort to design games that can be fun the first time you play it, just by reading the rules and doing what they say. As long as RPGs mandate that the previous generation needs to teach the new generation how to play you're looking at a decline in new players and some very frustrated Fantasy Heartbreaker publishers.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-12-24, 10:33 AM
Could be cool. Throwing a handful of dice which cover all the variables at the same time could solve the problem of complexities weighing down combat. And throw in a bonus die with extra damage if you describe a cool stunt or cleverly use the environment for improvised weapons. Bonus reroll if you actually perform the maneuver you describe for your character. :smallsmile:
Yeah, that was my thought too. To be honest, the mechanics side of games is woefully underexplored. If you've spent enough time with eurogames and other more developed games, you learn that you can actually represent a great deal of tactical game information in an elegant way. You just have to put the information onto game bits and bobs, so that the player doesn't have to manage it in their head.

(For instance, a system like Pocket Battles, which chains Troops together into Units in a way that elegantly figures out hit chance and hit damage, along with special traits, would work well to emulate the combo-based Capcom style of martial arts.)

I could see a very simple system worked up around the FFG dice, where you pre-plan a few moves in advance (similar to how Burning Wheel Works), and--depending on how the moves match up--each move adds dice to your pool for that round. (You might gain negative dice if your move is disadvantaged next to the corresponding opposition, or positive dice if their move is disadvantaged.) Then both sides roll their pool, and count successes.

So, you close in for a flurry of fighting, and come out for a breather.

Frozen_Feet
2013-12-24, 11:07 AM
This is actually the weakness of the existing RPG market. You can't start most games cold and have a good time. If you're a 14 year old kid wanting to try this "RPG thing" you heard about you can either have a terrible time for months to years while YOU learn the game well enough to teach other people to play it right or you can bin it and play WoW instead.


This is why, here in Finland, there's been a recent movement to create RPGs to newbies in particular. This culminated in the crowd-funded game "Myrskyn Sankarit" by Mike Pohjola, and I hear it's now been translated to English as well with the name "Heroes of the Storm".

Oracle_Hunter
2013-12-24, 12:34 PM
This is why, here in Finland, there's been a recent movement to create RPGs to newbies in particular. This culminated in the crowd-funded game "Myrskyn Sankarit" by Mike Pohjola, and I hear it's now been translated to English as well with the name "Heroes of the Storm".
If you can translate from English to Finnish, I may retain you to handle my Translation work :smallbiggrin:

Frozen_Feet
2013-12-24, 01:35 PM
Why would you want to translate something to Finnish? :smalltongue: Not exactly a huge market, us.

AMFV
2013-12-24, 01:38 PM
I've been checking out the Street Fighter Storyteller RPG recently and it looks like it has a fairly intricate martial arts system. It's also pretty amusing to read White Wolf melodrama type stuff set in the Street Fighter universe. So good martial arts and good comedic value!

Oracle_Hunter
2013-12-24, 01:43 PM
Why would you want to translate something to Finnish? :smalltongue: Not exactly a huge market, us.
Customers are customers, no matter where they live :smallbiggrin:

Rhynn
2013-12-24, 01:44 PM
Sort of, but at least they have the excuse of better hardware performance to narrow the field down to the last 5-10 years for most people in most cases, though that's starting to lose its effectiveness. (There's also DRM and online services that can be used to trim some middle-aged games from consideration.)

I mostly play DOS games published in the 80s and early 90s. Data is really hard to lose on the Internet, and emulators like DOSbox mean that hardware becomes increasingly irrelevant. (New computers are, in fact, generally incapable of running those games on their own.)


Why would you want to translate something to Finnish? :smalltongue: Not exactly a huge market, us.

Ah, the brief golden age in the early-to-mid nineties when RuneQuest, BECM, 2300 AD, Twilight 2000, and Cyberpunk 2020 were translated into Finnish... (Like half of them by the same guy.) The amazing bit was where most of them, including supplements, were available at my local library.

Frozen_Feet
2013-12-24, 01:50 PM
They are still available in mine. :smallbiggrin:

Rhynn
2013-12-24, 09:52 PM
They are still available in mine. :smallbiggrin:

I honestly haven't checked mine for them in ~15 years, but I suppose their copies may have survived. They also got each new Dragon magazine at least until 3E came out (that's around when I stopped borrowing them out).

andresrhoodie
2013-12-25, 12:42 AM
I like the martial mechanics from the white wolf games. If you put together the combat style merits from a couple of the different splats you actually get a system thats reasonably balanced, gives good differentiation when it comes to special attacks and stays nice and simple.

PaintByBlood
2013-12-31, 01:27 PM
For those interested in Fate Core for martial arts...
Thank you for bringing this one up. Your description of the mechanics sounded interesting, and also sounded a lot like some ideas I had had about how to handle combat (primarily the method of creating advantages instead of outright taking someone out), so I had to go look. There are a lot of others I need to look at, but this one being free to access and pay-what-you-want... I adore developers for doing things like that.
So definitely a lot of cool ideas there, in the reading I did about the combat mechanics at the very least. I think I'll really have to give it a go at some point. Which just adds another to a growing list, but that's alright...

Arbane
2013-12-31, 08:17 PM
For those interested in Fate Core for martial arts...


There's a Wuxia FATE game coming out soon: Tianxia (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/326055564/tianxia-blood-silk-and-jade)

mollystratus
2014-03-18, 07:55 AM
{{scrubbed}}

Amphetryon
2014-03-19, 09:02 AM
Ninjas and Superspies, from the Palladium folks, had a bunch of different martial arts styles represented. I'll leave it to you to determine for yourself whether they were represented well or not.

Third Eye Games brings us Wu Xing: The Ninja Crusade, which also has some martial arts representation.

Jay R
2014-03-19, 11:51 AM
Hero Systems has a large number of generic martial arts maneuvers that become specific in your character's system. The mechanic for Offensive Strike, for instance, is -2 to hit, +1 defense, and +4d6 damage. That can be used as a karate kick, a savate coup de pied chasse, or a right cross for boxing.

You customize your martial arts style by which maneuvers you buy, what you call them, and when you use them. In Aikido or Judo, for instance, you would not use the Offensive Strike.

I once designed a shape-changing super-hero who used monkey style kung fu, bear style kung fu, snake style kung fu, and crane style kung fu, depending on his current shape. The fighting styles were all recognizably kung fu, and recognizably different.

For a magazine article, somebody designed a reasonable Three Stooges fighting style, using Nerve Strike for sticking fingers in the enemy's eyes, etc.

Dusk Eclipse
2014-03-19, 12:02 PM
Anima Beyond Fantasy Martial Art system is relatively simple and actually quite good. Each schools has 3 grades (Basic, Advance and Master) and each grade you unlock gives you certain benefit while fighting unarmed and it also sets up you base damage.

For example basic tae kwon do gives you an extra attack at -20 (it is a d100 system so -20 isn't that much) and you deal 20+(str bonus) with your unarmed attacks while Basic Muay Thai let's you deal 20+(str bonus times 3). And if you know more than one style you can combine aspect of both, so a character with Taekowndo and Muay Thai basics could deal an extra unarmed strike dealing 20(+strx3).

There are also more fantasy style that allows you to ignore defenses or cause status effects, but they need you to have reached certain mastery in a "basic" style.

Arbane
2014-03-19, 09:51 PM
For a magazine article, somebody designed a reasonable Three Stooges fighting style, using Nerve Strike for sticking fingers in the enemy's eyes, etc.

Jeet Kune Moe?

Hytheter
2014-03-19, 10:34 PM
In other news, I figured a new method to attempt a Martial Arts RPG: Custom Dice.

This is a new-ish style of RPG, made popular by Fantasy Flight's Warhammer Fantasy and Edge of Empire but it is eminently suited for translating subtle differences between styles into a RPG.

A fight between the "Big Hits, Big Misses" School and the "Crippling Blow" School could have one side throw dice which are equally "Massive Damage" and "Miss" faces while the other throws dice with "Critical Hits" and "Minor Damage" faces (and a few Misses). To simulate fighting a more evasive school you have to throw Evasion Dice when you make your attack (made up of Blank and Miss faces).

Yes, this means the entire RPG will basically be about Kung Fu Fighting but skin it with a Romance of the Three Kingdoms vibe... :smallamused:

I know this was from a few pages back, but I think this is a really good idea.

I own a copy of the Doom Board Game, which Fantasy Flight produces. It has a set of dice that combine Accuracy, Damage and Ammo Loss into a single roll, with four different kinds of dice to model more accurate or more damaging attacks. Rolling 2 or more of the dice together creates a wide variety of differing attacks for each of the different weapons and enemies, as well as other defining characteristics noted in the stat blocks.

I've always thought the system was elegant in its simplicity and frankly I don't know why it's never occured to me to use a similar idea in my own systems.

I could definitely see this being adapted to a martial arts sort of thing. I'm not sure exactly how I'd go about it; naturally the details would need to be ironed out. But basically different styles or weapons or what have you would use different combinations of dice to simply represent the differences between them. More advanced styles may use more dice than others, and some would probably have special effects that aren't given by the dice.

Basically I think it could be a simple but very flexible system.

Beleriphon
2014-03-20, 01:15 AM
Jeet Kune Moe?

And a heavy dose of improvised weapons.

Jay R
2014-03-20, 11:32 AM
Jeet Kune Moe?

Soitenly!

Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-03-20, 11:35 AM
Jeet Kune Moe?


Soitenly!

Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk.

That was amazing.

Woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo!