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Mori600
2007-01-17, 07:08 PM
I’ve been doing a European campaign with my family and there was an incident with paladins suspecting one of the English lords for making deals and befriending gnolls and my twin was playing as an evil person so he took out detect evil so I can’t find out if my twin was evil or if the lord was evil. What my DM told me is that most paladins are bad ones because they just use detect evil and kill the person if they are evil. So is it a good idea to take detect evil?

TheOOB
2007-01-17, 07:59 PM
Paladins who kill whoever detects as evil are completely unreasonable. First of all, a large percentage of people in the world are evil. The merchant who overprices the food the poor people need is evil, the school bully who beat up a kid for a few copper is evil, the lord who increases taxes on his land because he wants more money is evil. That doesn't mean any of these people deserve to die.

Also keep in mind that normal peoples evil auras are really weak. For an evil person level 10 or lower they only have a faint aura, and by level 20 they still only have a moderate aura, on the flip side a demon or an evil cleric projects a moderate evil aura at level 2, and a strong one by level 5! A well roleplayed paladin will pretty much ignore most faint evil auras (their so common and usually so minor as to not be worth their time, even among their allies), and still won't find reason to kill someone for having a moderate evil aura alone (though a stern talking to and careful watch would be in order). If a paladin sees a strong or higher evil aura, then by all means kill it, by then evil has saturated their being and they deserve to die, otherwise it's not neccesary to even care.

Raum
2007-01-17, 08:04 PM
What OOB said. As for taking out the ability to detect evil, it's probably only a good idea if you remove all the alignment based spells and powers.

Douglas
2007-01-17, 08:07 PM
Properly DM'd, a Paladin that uses Detect Evil and kills anyone who detects as evil instantly becomes an ex-Paladin. Properly played, a Paladin detecting that a particular lord is evil may start looking into that lord's activities more carefully and may add him to a suspect list if other evidence for a crime fits, but he will not immediately conclude that the lord is guilty of the crime-of-the-day. It is entirely possible for a lord to be evil but have done nothing wrong - a person who simply doesn't care about anyone but himself but does nothing worse than passing up opportunities to help people because he would be punished if he did commit crimes is a perfectly valid example of an evil alignment, but a Paladin who did much more than try to peacefully convince this person to change his ways would be violating his code of conduct.

Simply put, Detect Evil managed well is not a problem. It only becomes a problem when players start using it as the primary way of determining guilt, which has no actual justification beyond convenience and ease of use. The evidence gathered in such a manner is circumstantial at best and completely misleading at worst.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 08:10 PM
or detecting enemies.

The ability should work in a much more general way, in my opinion.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-17, 08:44 PM
or detecting enemies.

The ability should work in a much more general way, in my opinion.

How do you mean? It already detects a run-of-the-mill selfish bastard right on par with a psychotic serial killer.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 08:55 PM
*Wandering through a dungeon* "I detect evil... thattaway".

I would prefer

"I have a strong sense of evil about this place."

Mewtarthio
2007-01-17, 08:58 PM
*Wandering through a dungeon* "I detect evil... thattaway".

I would prefer

"I have a strong sense of evil about this place."

Oh. Well, I heartily agree with you there.

Douglas
2007-01-17, 09:54 PM
Hey, if an enemy is stupid enough to just sit there for three rounds while someone less than 60 feet away stares in his direction and concentrates, he deserves to be found. Detect Evil is useless for finding anything more than 60 feet away, through most barriers, or in less than 3 rounds - and even something not moving within 60 feet and with clear line of effect won't be detected unless the Paladin concentrates on it.

Matthew
2007-01-17, 10:00 PM
Yeah, but if he stands outside a door, he can detect whether anything 'evil' is in the next room.

Things do tend to stay still for eighteen seconds on a regular basis, especially Monsters waiting in ambush...

Thomas
2007-01-18, 05:11 AM
I’ve been doing a European campaign with my family and there was an incident with paladins suspecting one of the English lords for making deals and befriending gnolls and my twin was playing as an evil person so he took out detect evil so I can’t find out if my twin was evil or if the lord was evil. What my DM told me is that most paladins are bad ones because they just use detect evil and kill the person if they are evil. So is it a good idea to take detect evil?

That's a really poor DM, and a bogus excuse.

If he wants to remove abilities from classes, it is to be done only before anyone creates a character using one of those classes. (And in this case, there should be consistency. Remove all alignment-based spells.)

The explanation is BS. How does he know what most paladins do? That's what poorly-played paladins do.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-18, 05:38 AM
Detect evil is more like a "hunch" telling the paladin that someone is not trustable. It's not a "locking in targeting system". Even if he find someone that is clearly evil to everyone around, he won't just go and kill if they are not already in a combat, or there is some emergency. And remember that a paladin doesn't need to kill someone. If the guy is a lord, it would be better to find a way to expose his crimes instead of making yourself look like a murderer to other's eyes.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 06:27 AM
That is certainly how it should work, in my opinion. However, in many games it appears to be used as a Radar.

Frojoe21
2007-01-18, 07:11 AM
Personally, I'm a fan of that paladin who lurks around alleyways at night, detecting evil people. If they do ping as evil, he throws a poisoned dagger in their back and runs off laughing...

Though I do like the hunch thing though. I should start implementing it, as it makes more sense than the "Hey, you! *scans* You evil person, DIE!" type scenarios that happen with paladins.

NullAshton
2007-01-18, 07:29 AM
That hunch is exactly what happens in the first round, isn't it? In a dungeon, that tends to be when enemies stab the party.

Matthew
2007-01-18, 07:44 AM
Not really. A lot depends on the dungeon and the style of play of the Dungeon Master, though. The Burning Plague is an example of an adventure that has Detect Evil problems.

Saph
2007-01-18, 10:33 AM
Yeah, but if he stands outside a door, he can detect whether anything 'evil' is in the next room.

Things do tend to stay still for eighteen seconds on a regular basis, especially Monsters waiting in ambush...

I dunno, the paladin in my party used to do this and I never saw anything wrong with it. I thought it was quite a neat use of the spell, actually, and it's not infallible . . .

Paladin: "I detect evil on the room."
DM: "You don't detect any evil."
Paladin: "Okay, then I open the door and walk in."
DM: "The room contains fifteen wolves led by a dire wolf. The dire wolf looks up at you and growls."
Paladin: "What? You said this room was safe!"
DM: "No, I said you didn't detect any evil . . ."

Anyway, similar spells like Detect Magic can be used exactly the same way. My players used to use that one as a 'radar' as well, scanning an area to look for caches of magic auras.

- Saph

Matthew
2007-01-18, 10:35 AM
*Laughs*

Just to be clear, I am a not saying that it is an unbalanced ability, I am just saying I do not like it and have known it to create problems.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-18, 10:57 AM
I agree that detect evil isn't a problem if played and DMed well. Paladins aren't Judge Dread they shouldn't ping evil then immediately attack. I agree with douglas' description if someone pings evil he gets put on the watch this guy carefully list. The way I see it paladins should be using sense motive when they meet someone and if that indicates something then use detect evil. If people start noticing the paladin detecting evil on every NPC they meet people will avoid them. standing outside a dungeon door seems like a logical use of the power but it isn't a catch all neutral bad guys are great for this reason.

blacksabre
2007-01-18, 05:20 PM
I vehemently refuse to allow players to use DE as an "Easy" Button..Especially in social scenerios..
Going through ruins and catacombs is one thing, but to stand in high court, or walk down the street with "radar" is another thing all together...

Considering the spell has Verbal, Somatic and a Divine Focus..If a pally/cleric pulls out his Holy symbol and starts pointing it at people, not only is it rude, (its like saying, I don't take you at your word..)but you try pointing it at a lord, it can be construde as an assault of the Lords person/character, let alone privacy....You insult a Lord, it usually gets you in hot water..either escorted out of town, if not worse..

It borders on Orwellian "thought crime"..in some cases, some Lords have been known to pass laws outlawing the use of Divination on persons because it intrudes upon there privacy...

Make it a Law, and see how long a Pally keeps his lawful alignment if he likes hitting the easy button..

Gamebird
2007-01-18, 05:34 PM
It's a spell-like ability. It doesn't work like the spell. There's no verbal, somatic or focus needed.

I've had players use it as a radar too.

DM: Okay, you pry the door back from the crypt and see a hallway reaching off into the darkness. What do you do?
(DM decides the evil undead enemy remains about 50' back and is trying to see who is entering his tomb)
PCs: Do we hear anything?
DM: No.
Wizard: Hey, Paladin, how about you tell me if you sense anything foul about to cause us a problem in there.
Paladin: Sure. DM, I use Detect Evil.
DM: Okay, round 1, you detect an evil presence.
Paladin: Yeah, there's evil in there. I'll try to narrow it down...
Wizard: Nah, don't bother. DM, I use Blast of Fire. Reaches 60'. ::dice rolled::
DM: ::rolls foe's saving throw:: Oh... a 1. Um... how much damage did you do? ::looks at enemy's hit points:: Okay. So... what do you do next.
Paladin: Anything evil in there?
DM: Not anymore.

blacksabre
2007-01-18, 05:49 PM
It's a spell-like ability. It doesn't work like the spell. There's no verbal, somatic or focus needed.
.


Hmmm.I play it differently I guess,..I forgo material components on (Sp), but it just makes sense to me that a holy class "would" use their holy symbol, if not verbal..

Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are spells and magical abilities that are very much like spells.

Is there someplace that it says a spell like ability has no component requirements?

It would seem excessive..Without the components, a pally with some points in Concentration can walk around all day with the radar up, without any indication he is doing so...until he engages in some other activity...hell, you spend enough skill points in concentration, you may be able to make the rolls for that..

Raum
2007-01-18, 06:14 PM
It's in the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities).

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-18, 06:17 PM
Give the poor paladins a break, man. They already know their class is going to be useless in later levels, don't be stealing what little thunder they have.

Douglas
2007-01-18, 06:31 PM
It would seem excessive..Without the components, a pally with some points in Concentration can walk around all day with the radar up, without any indication he is doing so...until he engages in some other activity...hell, you spend enough skill points in concentration, you may be able to make the rolls for that..
It takes a standard action each round to concentrate on it. Keeping it up all the time means you are limited to a single move action per round plus however many free actions the DM allows, which severely limits your possible activities.

Edit: Also, I would count keeping it up all the time as at least as tiring as hustling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#overlandHustle).

Nero24200
2007-01-18, 06:33 PM
Sounds like your DM has never seen a well-Rped paladin before, or is just an ass

ANYONE who simply says paladins suck is either A) Incapable of RPing one properly or B) An inexperience player who has only seen badly RP'd ones

I HATE the anti-paladin mentallity that seems to swarm forums like this, and it sounds like your DM has this mentalitly.

Simply explain to him that paladins are a core class, so he has no right to make the game harder for you just because you picked it. If hes going to make the high-powered lord evil and power enough to emit an aura strong enough for you to care about, he better have a very good RP idea behind it, otherwise hes just trying to screw you.
And also, common sense, evil auras can be blocked, if he deals with paladins on a regular basis, he would know this and take precautions.

Khantalas
2007-01-18, 06:35 PM
Anti-paladin mentality? So we're all blackguards now?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-18, 06:38 PM
Oh, I love playing as paladins. Doesn't mean I don't realize I'm getting gipped late-game.

But it's fun to play as the holy knight in shining armor chosen by the gods sometimes.

Mori600
2007-01-18, 06:47 PM
That's a really poor DM, and a bogus excuse.

If he wants to remove abilities from classes, it is to be done only before anyone creates a character using one of those classes. (And in this case, there should be consistency. Remove all alignment-based spells.)

The explanation is BS. How does he know what most paladins do? That's what poorly-played paladins do.

Thanks for the advice. How I handle DE most of the time is that i would use it in a surprise round or before a duel or arena match. How the Templars, Crusaders, and Miko handled it is that they would use detect evil on everyone to get rid of the "heretics" as if the person was Jewish or Muslim if they were. Besides its for a "religious cause." Well anyway, if there was detect evil and my character finds out that my twin is evil, he'd be hostile to most of Western Europe. Also what TheOOB said in message #2 is that a large percentage of the world is evil. The paladins would be killing plenty of people. My DM made those people neutral because they do try to protect their peasents (though they sometimes leave them out the gate to keep their enemy out of the walls.) Still it would be intresting to prove that someone is evil without using detect evil? I tried to prove that to the world that my twin was evil because my twin assulted a Templar, but I was only able to prove that he was when he was dead.

TheOOB
2007-01-18, 06:59 PM
Last I checked the mear act of being evil isn't agienst any laws and isn't cause for death in any good religion in the game. Being evil just means your not a nice person, not that they are a baby kicking phycopath killer.

Desaril
2007-01-19, 12:09 AM
@ TheOOB- I disagree that a large percentage or people are evil. Alignment is not a measure of "niceness" but the sum of an individuals philosophy and many actions. Similarly a person who speeds (breaking the law) is not lawless, i.e. chaotic. Most people in civilized society are both lawful and good, i.e. they generally prefer and promote order over confusion, justice over injustice, life over death, and creation over destruction. The problem is that LG is so associated with Paladins, that we think LG has to be a boy scout. The guy who raises a family, goes to work everyday, pays his taxes and helps out at the community center is LG.

OTOH, a paladin may not be concerned about guilt or innocence according to the local constabulary. Like the Blues Brothers, they are on a mission from God. The fact that the local courts don't realize the threat posed by the evil noble, doesn't mean the Paladin cannot mete appropriate justice. Many real world religious leaders (Jesus, Paul, Ghandi, MLK) were arrested and convicted of crimes by legal systems that failed to recognize their righteousness. However, I would argue they stuck by their principals. In a game, a paladin who acts on his principles and faces social persecution on behalf of his calling is fulfilling his obligation to his class and deity.

Lord_Kimboat
2007-01-19, 12:23 AM
This is beginning to smack of the old 'what is good and evil' chestnut.

One reason that I haven't come across yet is the idea of redemption. A paladin might detect that the noble was evil, approach him and then try to get him to do good, perhaps see the error of his ways. Using diplomacy with that high charisma might help a whole lot without a sword even being drawn.

Everyman
2007-01-19, 12:23 AM
Anti-paladin mentality? So we're all blackguards now?
Strictly speaking, blackguards are not anti-paladins. If they were, we would be required to be chaotic evil, not any evil. Still, the idea is sound...:smallamused:

I would tell your DM that a) that's not fair and b) if he's going to remove the one way you can be sure your target is evil (as to not waste a Smite Evil attempt), then you need some sort of compensation. If he's willing to talk to you, perhaps you can relate what we've discussed so far on the thread. Why not sit down and actually set up some character guidelines for using Detect Evil? For example, perhaps you are prejudice but not immediate hostile towards a weak evil aura. On the other hand, a strong aura might provoke you into attacking, depending on the circumstances.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-19, 08:53 AM
Anti-paladin mentality? So we're all blackguards now?
Bah-dum Pssh.

some Lords have been known to pass laws outlawing the use of Divination on persons because it intrudes upon there privacy...
I agree entirely. Divination spells are pretty much the definition of "Invasion of privacy"
Therefore, it'd be "most" Lords, at least, since invasion of privacy is a crime in most places.

Sisqui
2007-01-19, 09:05 AM
Thanks for the advice. How I handle DE most of the time is that i would use it in a surprise round or before a duel or arena match. How the Templars, Crusaders, and Miko handled it is that they would use detect evil on everyone to get rid of the "heretics" as if the person was Jewish or Muslim if they were. Besides its for a "religious cause." Well anyway, if there was detect evil and my character finds out that my twin is evil, he'd be hostile to most of Western Europe. Also what TheOOB said in message #2 is that a large percentage of the world is evil. The paladins would be killing plenty of people. My DM made those people neutral because they do try to protect their peasents (though they sometimes leave them out the gate to keep their enemy out of the walls.) Still it would be intresting to prove that someone is evil without using detect evil? I tried to prove that to the world that my twin was evil because my twin assulted a Templar, but I was only able to prove that he was when he was dead.

I'm confused. You mean your Paladins can say anyone not of their own religion (or of their own particular sect) should be killed? Heresy usually implies some divergent religious views but that does not mean that either those views or the people who hold them are evil. I am pretty sure a paladin whacking heretics who aren't spewing explicitly evil doctrines would fall themselves wouldn't they?

Mori600
2007-01-19, 04:01 PM
I'm confused. You mean your Paladins can say anyone not of their own religion (or of their own particular sect) should be killed? Heresy usually implies some divergent religious views but that does not mean that either those views or the people who hold them are evil. I am pretty sure a paladin whacking heretics who aren't spewing explicitly evil doctrines would fall themselves wouldn't they?

Yes they would.These paladins think Jews, Muslims, and evil people as evil people that don't belong in the world. What it happening in my group is that many Templars are becoming evil and going against God and the high angels (gods that worship God) and they are probalbly doing it because they turned them into a featless fighter.

Mori600
2007-01-19, 04:10 PM
Last I checked the mear act of being evil isn't agienst any laws and isn't cause for death in any good religion in the game. Being evil just means your not a nice person, not that they are a baby kicking phycopath killer.

So you can still be good even if you kill people because they are not your religion even if their deity is good and killing unarmed people that do not deserve to die? I dissagree with that. I think evil means that you make someones life misrible either by calling names, beating them up, or kill their friends. I think killing anyone is an evil act unless it's self defense.

Gamebird
2007-01-19, 04:41 PM
What it happening in my group is that many Templars are becoming evil and going against God and the high angels (gods that worship God) and they are probalbly doing it because they turned them into a featless fighter.

What an interesting idea... a religious order/cult who dedicates themselves to destroying some other god/faith because the cult was abandoned by their god, stripping clerics of spells and paladins of powers. Hm... I'm sure I could work that into the Ogre Valley campaign... though I doubt most of my players will notice or care about intra-ogre religious disputes.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-19, 09:24 PM
What an interesting idea... a religious order/cult who dedicates themselves to destroying some other god/faith because the cult was abandoned by their god, stripping clerics of spells and paladins of powers. Hm... I'm sure I could work that into the Ogre Valley campaign... though I doubt most of my players will notice or care about intra-ogre religious disputes.

What's really ironic is that clerics get spells simply from believing strongly in a cause. So these would all be Clerics of Killing Pelor, and they'd still get spells for explicitly not praying to Pelor every day.

...Hm... since some cosmologies create new gods when enough people put their faith in one particular thing, what do you suppose would happen if these people managed to gather enough followers to hit the critical mass?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-19, 09:35 PM
The Anti-Pelor is born, a god who's sole domain is "Killing Pelor".

Douglas
2007-01-19, 09:50 PM
I think Pelor might take notice and do something about it. The newborn deity almost certainly has a much lower Divine Rank than Pelor, so he shouldn't have too much trouble offing the new guy before he becomes a threat. I'm pretty sure killing someone whose entire reason for existence is to kill you is not an evil act.

Mori600
2007-01-19, 10:13 PM
The Anti-Pelor is born, a god who's sole domain is "Killing Pelor".

Why would anyone want to name a god Anti-Pelor? Also there are two god siblings that are at each other. So how about Pelor's evil son who just wants to be better than him without fighting him. Just get more worshippers and spread Anti-Pelorism

Roderick_BR
2007-01-19, 11:38 PM
Just read what the spell does, and what evil is. A person can be Lawful Evil, but be just minding his business. He may be not nice, don't care for people, care only for himself, have all the nasty things you can imagine, but he didn't care to take over a country, or kill people. Like some sort of lawyer...
Then, the paladin can tell he's evil.... so? He can't really do much about it.
Now, when you are dealing with criminals, or someone that can possible be one, you can use it to give you a hint on who you can trust.
In a last case, you can use it just to know if you can use Smite Evil.
The radar thing can be used too, but it's not really precise. In my games, it's usually a thing like "you feel it close, to the north". More like a warning that something is there, but you don't know exactly where. It's just a helping hand to the paladin, not a fail-proof detector.