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Mighty_Chicken
2013-12-20, 04:59 PM
Heavily edited in 12-28-2013

The idea behind the system is:

* Skill checks should not be so random; if your character sheet says you're good at something, you must be good at it most of time, and only defeated by a villager at it once in a hundred times. However, there must be a way to let randomness happen for the more heroic moments.

* Level 10 heroes shouldn't be incompetent in almost everything. They're legends above all historical heroes of real life!

* A skillmonkey should be able to do a hundred things good, and a few things outrageously good, and preferably in ways where creative players can shine.

This system have an in-built action/awesome point system. Don't worry, it's fully optional.

Skills

All skill rolls are made with 2d10. 2 and 3 are equivalent to RAW's natural 1, 19 and 20 are equivalent to RAW's natural 20. A d20 can be rolled instead by spending a story point.

The ranks in all skills advance as the character gains more levels, depending of your level of training. There are only 3 levels of training for skills: untrained, trained and expert.

When you create your character, choose 8+(Int bonus) skills from your class skills list (humans and half elves choose 10+Int bonus). You are trained in these skills. Every time you get a level in a class, you pick two more skills from that class' skill list to become trained in.

Spending one skill point will take you from untrained to trained or from trained to expert. Character start the game with 3+(Int bonus) skill points (but see bellow).


{table=head]|
Skill Training

Untrained|
1 rank / 4 levels

Trained|
2 ranks +1/2 levels

Expert|
3 ranks +1/level
[/table]


Skill Mastery and Skill Knack

Being Expert in a skill has advantages beyond the greater number of ranks. Firstly, an Expert can always roll a d20 instead of 2d10, with no cost.

Also, if you are Expert in skill, you can spend a single skill point (if it's a class skill) or two skill points (if it's a cross class skill) to attain Skill Mastery or Skill Knack with this skill. You can have both abilities if you pay for them.

Skill Mastery: You never screw up at this. Any roll lesser than 10 is always treated as 10 when using this skill.

Skill Knack: You reached a deep but creative understanding of the skill.

Once per encounter and up to twice per day, the character can enhance the skill check with:

- an extra dice (d4 in levels 1-5, d6 in levels 6-10, d8 from level 11 on)
- an extra detail to the story, involving the use of your skill
- a bigger than life move not unlike Complete Scoundrel's skill tricks

The player should describe what the trick is. If you are using Story Points, spending a Story point will grant you 2 extra dices instead of one.


Skill Points

Every character receives a number of skill points equal to 3+Int mod at first level, and an extra skill point every 4 levels. Humans get an extra skill point at first level. If the character's Intelligence score advances in the future, he may gain more skill points accordingly.

Rogues receive an extra skill point at every level, including the first. (this stacks with the skill points received every 4 levels)

Bards, Monks and Rangers receive an extra skill point at level first, and another one at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18.

The Open Minded feat gives you 2 extra skill points the first time you buy it (see below).


For this ends, Craft, Perform and Profession count as a single skill each. Different kinds of Craft, Perform and Profession are still separate regarding skill point spending.

Craft, Perform and Profession

If Craft, Perform or Profession are class skill for a character, he or she should be trained in at least one form of it with no cost. Talk to your DM and decide what makes more sense according to the character's background.

A bard is Expert in a number of Perform skills equal to his Int bonus (minimum 1).

Since Skill Points are rare in this system, the DM shouldn't be afraid to allow players to learn professions, crafts and performances with no mechanical cost. A barbarian who spent months inside a ship as part of the crew should become trained in Profession (sailor).


Trained-only skills

This should be logical, but here we go: if you choose a trained only skill as one of your class skills you are Trained in, you don't have to spend skill points to be able to use it.

The system at work:

Tiberius, the sorcerer, has the following class skills: Bluff, Craft, Concentration, Profession and Spellcraft. At 1st level, he can choose 8 class skills to become trained at; since he has less than 8 class skills, he's trained in all of them. He has 4 skill points to spend since he's human: he spends 1 point in Concentration (becoming an Expert: 4 ranks at 1st level), 2 in Spellcraft (Expert, with the extra point going to Skill Mastery), and 1 in Diplomacy, a cross-class skill, becoming Trained at it (2 ranks at 1st level)

When he goes up a level he becomes a Sorcerer 2. He gains no skill points or class skills.

When he goes up a level again, he multiclasses to Rogue. He receives an additional skill point since that's a rogue class feature, and spends that point in Bluff. He can also choose 2 additional class skills from the Rogue list to become trained skills. He choses Hide and Diplomacy - since he had already a skill point spent in Diplomacy, that makes him an Expert in it.


Relevant feats:

Fool's Skill
In your own... unique way, you manage to irritatingly suceed in things you know nothing about.
Prerequisite: at least one ability 11 or less, level 5 or less.
Benefit: Choose two cross class skill you are untrained at, or two class skill you are inept (see optional rules) at, or one of each. They must be based on abilities in which your score is 11 or less. You have Skill Mastery and Skill Knack with them.
Special: if you ever spend a skill point in the chosen skill, you lose the benefit of this feat with that skill. You can gain this feat multiple times; every time it applies to two extra skills.

Open Minded
Benefit: gain 2 skill points.
Special: You can gain Open Mind multiple times. Every additional time you gain this feat it grants 1 skill point instead of 2. Exception: the second, but not the third, time a human or half-elf gains this feat it grants 2 skill points.

Skill Expertise
Prerequisite: Int 13
Benefit: choose one skill you are expert at. You now have skill knack or skill mastery with it.
Special: You can gain this skill multiple times. Every time it applies to another skill.
Skill Expertise is considered a Fighter feat for Str- and Dex- based Fighter class skills.

Skill Expertise II
Prerequisite: Int 15, Skill Expertise
Benefit: choose one skill you are have Skill Expertise in. You know have both skill knack and skill mastery with it.
Special: You can gain this skill multiple times. Every time it applies to another skill.
Skill Expertise II is considered a Fighter feat for Str- and Dex- based Fighter class skills.

Skill Focus
Choose a skill.
Benefit: You get a +3 bonus on all checks involving that skill. If it's a cross-class skill you're Expert at, you can now buy Skill Mastery and Skill Knack for only 1 skill point each.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new skill.




Optional rules:

Complete Scoundrel's skill tricks

How do Complete Scoundrel's fun rules for skill tricks fit in this system? For now I'll only propose some ideas, and you'll pick any of them you like, ok? First of all, let's have in mind the Skill Knack mechanic is inspired in Complete Scoundrel.

You could consider a character who's Expert (Skill Knack) in a skill automatically knows all skill tricks she qualifies for. In that case, the player should be allowed to play a single skill trick for that skill per encounter with no cost, along with his story point related ability.

Alternatively or along with it, you might consider that using a skill trick without being an Expert (Skill Trick) costs you a story point, but you don't need to qualify for it.

In any case, a character who's Expert (Skill Knack) should have good sinergy with Complete Scoundrel's skill tricks. DM and players can make everything funnier by researching real life, fictional and mythological "skill tricks" related to the skill. What kind of things require not only a highly skilled individual, but also someone who discovered a specific perk of his trade? Being an Olympic athlete probably means you have a lot of ranks in Jump, but doing Parkour probably involves knowing some tricks along with sheer talent. Skill tricks are surprising and cinematographic; more ranks in a skill mean you got better, but a skill trick mean you can do more with the skill you have. Odysseus wouldn't have fooled the wise Troyans without divine help; he wasn't such a good lier. He was, though, good enough to fool a stupid giant; the skill knack here is that he lied in such a way the giant bought even more time for him ("No-One hit me in the eye!").


Another option would be to allow players to buy Complete Scoundrel's skill tricks with the Practice Points discribed bellow.

Ineptitude

Many heroes were known for never learning to do something, no matter what.

An Inept character does not get ranks in a certain skill, no matter how high is his level.

There are whole races or cultures that are inept in something. It is said moutain dwarves are inept at Swim. Many real life cultures are obviously inept at Bluff. This racial or cultural ineptitude can be "fixed" by spending a Skill or Practice point (see bellow). From there on it advances normally.

There are harsher forms of ineptitude; the most common of those give a -2 penalty in all rolls with the skill. The tragic sorcerer Avintus got to know other realities but never learned to read other people; he was Inept-5 in Sense Motive.

Players should adopt a light Ineptitude on their own, as flavor for their characters; Inept 0 for a class skill or Inept-2 for a cross class skill shouldn't maim a PC.

The DM and players could negotiate harsher Ineptitudes for little advantages for the characters; like making a cross class skill a class skill. This should be used to give characters more organicity and versatility, not to facilitate combos. Because Drokkar, the fierce fighter, was a little uncomfortable with heights, he was Inept-2 at Climb (a class skill); the DM let the player pick Heal as a class skill to reflect Drokkar's experience in battle. But Viriatus, the rogue, had a terrible voice and was Inept-5 at Perform - the DM shouldn't let him get any goodie because of a flavor perk like this.

Generally, an Ineptitude adquired in such negotiation should never be "fixed".


Practice points

In this optional system, PCs advance in skills not only through their character building choices, but also through their actions in game, and how other player perceive them.

At the end of every session or start of the next one, players and DM will quickly discuss what skills each character used the most, or more dramatically, or in the most interesting way, etc. Then the other players will propose that the character gain a practice point in that skill. The DM will be the final judge in that, but he shouldn't say no too often.

A practice point is generally a +1 bonus is a certain use of the skill, or a Complete Scoundrel's skill trick, or other non-conventional use of the skill. Characters shouldn't be granted more than one character point per session or more than three per level. The bonus to a single skill shouldn't stack more than +3, and never be higher than half the character's level.

The objective of Practice points is both giving the skill system more versatility and more flavor. There is no rule against allowing PCs to get more powerful; but the priority is to make them more interesting.

Examples:

Last session, Julian was overinterpreting his bard's womanizer side. The other players think think since he devoted so much energy to this he should have a +1 bonus to any Diplomacy checks against women. The DM thinks this is a little imbalanced, for a bard, and not perfectly tasteful; he instead suggests the bard has +1 to Jump and Tumble when trying to impress a woman.

Nick, the new player, did little with his wizard other than bullying other people. The first thing other thought was giving him +1 to Intimidation outside of battle; but a cleverer player remembers he even yelled at a horse. Players decide that was funny and he gets +1 to Ride because he learned to 'whisper' to horses that way. Actually this is a bonus to all Ride rolls and not just to a certain use; but since Ride isn't important in any wizard combo, and since trolling Nick is so fun, the DM allows it.

Arthur's paladin was betrayed by a demon who was hiding its Alignment. He even got a scar for it and everything. Players think that now he won't be trusting his supernatural abilities so much, and gets +1 to Sense Motive to catch a supernatural creature lying. In another session, the paladin is succesful at uncovering a hidden demon - this time the others think he's got sharper at it and raise his bonus to +2.

Allan's monk spent a story point on a jump move that allowed him to catch the bad guy... who was supposed to run away in the DM's plans. The DM's face was priceless. That moment was special for everyone, so others think the monk should be the jump guy, and give him a Jump skill trick from Complete Scoundrel.

Gisa's cleric almost died with a fireball spell. Since Spellcraft is a class skill for her, other players decide she should always know when Fireball is being cast, no check needed, because of the trauma.

August's low Charisma ranger develop an interesting relationship with one of the other PCs. They decide that he's less cranky and gets +1 to Diplomacy and Charisma checks when the other one is around.




Speak Languages

Speak languages works almost normally in this system. Any rank in this skill means the character has a "language spot". He may learn a language immediatly after getting the rank, or wait to fill the spot in the future.

Speak Languages is a cross class skill for every class except bard. This means an untrained 10th level character with average Intelligence will speak up to three "foreign languages". If she's a bard, she'll know up to five foreign languages, plus her int bonus. This is realistic: without making too much effort, an adventurer will likely learn many foreign languages during his lifetime.

Anyone who spent one of her rare skill point in this skill is dedicated poliglote. For example, a 10th level non-bard who spent a skill point in Speak Languages will have 7 ranks, and speak 7 foreign languages. A trained bard or expert non-bard would speak 13 languages, plus her Int bonus!

A character with Skill Mastery in Speak Languages has a linguistic talent. He can understand almost perfectly any language that is similar enough to one of the languages he speaks. If he speaks Norweguian he can understand all Nordic languages, if he speaks French he can understand all Latin languages, etc. He could, by spending a story point, use his Speak Languages ranks instead of his Decipher Script ranks with the Script's used alphabet belongs to a language he knows. A character with Skill Trick in Speak Languages can improvise: for example, with a DC 15 Speak Languages check he can understand partly what foreign speakers are saying (better results means he got it better; a 30 result means almost perfect comprehension), and with a DC 20 check he can communicate poorly in an unknown language (with escalating results; a 40 means he communicates pretty much perfectly in the unknown language).

In low fantasy travel/exploration campaigns Speak Languages may be too important and too costy. PCs may learn a new language with Practice points. He sums the number of Practice points he was given in a specific language, plus his Int modifier, plus half of his speak language ranks. No player should be given more than 5 Practice points in a given language. The resulting number tells how good he is in the language:

1: Knows the name of some animals and objects, and verbs that are close to universal communication such as "yes", "stop" and "go". Can't communicate much more than a deaf/mute person.

3: Can communicate enough to trade common goods. Takes some time to understand simple directions ("when I raise the flag, you attack"). Body language is playing a heavy role here. Can understand what other people are talking about to each other with a DC 15 Speak Languages test, but details are lost, specially if something more conceptual as strategy, magic and profession is being discussed.

5: Basic understanding. With enough time can communicate anything. Stereotypically bad accent and vocabulary. Generally knows what other people are talking about to each other, but has a -5 to Listen checks regarding listening to conversations. Relevant Perform checks get a -5 or -10 penalty. Diplomacy checks can get similar penalties in some relevant cases (rushed, hostile NPC, etc). Complex discussions require a DC 15 Speak Languages test every few rounds, and fails can be very frustrating. If you have a foreing grandmother you know what I'm talking about.

8: Heavy accent, bad vocabulary, but most relevant penalties are reduced to -2, or -5 regarding more complex uses of the language such as academic or obscure discussions. Frustrating discussions do not happen anymore.

10: Communicates perfectly, with a heavy accent. Accents and slang can be confusing for the character.

12: Light accent, understands some regional accents that even native speakers don't understand.

If the character was already literate in that alphabet, starting in number 3 he can learn to write and read as well as he speaks and listens in the language for 1 practice points (2 if he has to learn the alphabet too).





Story Points


Some call it Action Points, some call it Awesome Points. In Vampire the Masquerate they should be called Punk Goth points, because they help to make the characters so Punk-Gothy. It depends on the genre the group wants to play. The system should be used to create action if you like action, or drama if you like drama.

Every character starts the game with 3 story points.

One can spend their story points in the following ways:


for 2 points, add a dice to any roll. It would be a d4 from level 1 to 4, a d6 from levels 5 to 10, and a d8 from level 11 to 20. If the sum the 2d10 (or 1d20) and the story dice is 21+, the result is considered a natural 20.

for 1 point, roll 2d10 instead of 1d20 or the opposite.

for 1 point, add some detail to the story, like having a handy object in an hour of need. For 2 points, add a more detailed element to the story, like an NPC.


Optional: once each character of the group spent 10 story points, everyone levels up.

Getting more story points:

In the middle of the gaming table, there a bowl of a limited number of story point tokens; say, 3 per player. Anytime a player thinks another player did something cool, he or she takes a token from the bowl and gives it to fellow player.

The bowl of tokens is replenished every game session, or everytime the DM "pushes it" inventing things that are too hard to do.

If last session the party got in trouble because of role playing too good, being too bold, acting too crazy or anything that helped the game to fit the appropriate game style, the DM puts more story point tokens in the bowl.

One more thing. A player spending a story point should also be able to negotiate minor mechanical bonuses with the DM, aka "special effects". The DM should be convinced the special effect isn't broken, and that it is fun or appropriate to the game style. But it shouldn't be too hard to convince him or her.

That's it. Finito.


Before we go, an optional advanced rule:

Traits

If story points are ways of giving agency to players, traits are channels that make player agency even stronger. The name "traits" makes us think of a character's personality, but it could also be a theme related to them.

Players choose up to 3 traits for their characters. They don't need to choose all of them at character creation. Traits are words or phrases you make up entirely on your own, and that describe something about your character, her story or something that's important for her.

Julian's bard is a lustful son of a rich merchant family who was exiled from his country so he wouldn't be killed by someone's jealous husband. He decides his bard has the following traits: Womanizer, Stranger in a Strange Land, Everyone knows my father

Everytime the player plays a story point and explains how it's related to one of his traits, he gets a "story point discount".


Adding a dice to a roll only costs one point.

Rolling 2d10 instead of 1d20 or vice versa still costs one point, but it can be done altogether with adding a small detail to the story.

Adding a small detail for one point could be a little more advantageous.. Adding a more detailed element to the story, like an NPC, costs only 1 point.


The player must convince the DM the trait is related to what he's asking; and this time, it's never wrong to say no to the player.

Julian decides says his obvious sexual aura makes provoking the ugly guard into attacking him even easier. The DM lets him use his Womanizer trait to add a dice to his Bluff check to taunt the guard.

Later, he has a pretty high DC Gather Information check to do. He will use a d20 rather than 2d10. He argues local drunkards will take him for a native dunkard, and that will all cost a single story point for him, because his character is used to it since he's always a Stranger in a Strange Land.

In another ocasion, he argues the city has a rich merchant that used to do business with his father. Fair enough: Everyone Knows his Father! And it's a port city anyway, so why not. He adds the NPC for just one story point.

A player can also use his traits to give her destiny in DM's hands. She first must argue that in the current situation, one of her traits could put her in danger or foil her plans. The DM can think for a moment. If he accepts, he immediatly gives her a story point token - not from the bowl, but from his pockets or another place. The place really isn't relevant as long as it isn't the bowl. The DM will, in this encounter/scene or in the next one, use the character's trait against her. The DM has a dice (one order greater than the one the PC gains when she pays story points) to add in favor of an enemy or to reduce from a roll.

Julian is fighting a fierce battle and he's all out of story points. He decides to argue, "you know what could my life even worse? Some vengeful husband!". The DM doesn't want to buy it because everything for Julian is a vengeful husband. But Julian argues he mentioned the guards came from nowhere, so maybe they found them because one of their wives told them where he was. The DM accepts it. Julian has his story point, but the DM has a 1d8 (Julian's bard is 5th level) to use against him any time, and the guards will do terrible things to him if he's caught...

The party is in a diplomatic mission. Julian wants a story point and argues that, despite being so charismatic and well versed, and exiled person has a psychologically marked with shame and he does not fit in rich ambients anymore. The DM accepts it; several NPCs in the court just don't like him, and the DM has a 1d8 in his pocket that he'll throw at Julian in the form of a stuttering during a speech.

During the same diplomatic mission Julian is hungry for another story point and says that someone will know him in the party because of his father, making everything even worse. The DM thinks a little and accepts it. But no one recognizes Julian during the party. Party is over, the consul sends them into a stealth mission. But by coincidence they find not an enemy, but an old friend of him that wants to talk to old times and must suspect of nothing. The group has just probably lost their bard for the rest of the mission, unless Julian can get rid of the friend very in a most subtle way - but the friend's sense motive check will have a 1d8 waiting for it.

Giving your destiny into the DM's hand is dangerous. It may create more trouble than you can deal with. But it's also a way of reafirming who your character is, and if all goes bad, maybe you can even influence in the way you'll lose!


EDIT:
Here's how the rules were before the 12-28 edit
Skills

All skill rolls are made with 2d10. 2 and 3 are equivalent to RAW's natural 1, 19 and 20 are equivalent to RAW's natural 20. A d20 can be rolled instead by spending a story point.

There are only 3 levels of training for skills: untrained, trained and expert. Being untrained costs nothing, being trained costs 1 skill point and being an expert costs 2.

The ranks in all skills advance as the character gains more levels, depending if the skill is a class or a cross-class skill.


{table=head]|
Cross-Class|
Class skill

Untrained|
+1 rank / 3 levels|
+1 rank / 2 levels

Trained|
2 ranks +1/2 levels|
3 ranks+1/level

Expert|
3 ranks +1/level|
3 ranks +1/level + mastery or trick

Expert+1|
- |
3 ranks +1/level + mastery and trick[/table]

Experts in class skills can choose between having mastery or trick in that skill. If they spend another point (3 points in total) they'll have both the mastery and the trick.

Skill Mastery: You never screw up at this. Any roll lesser than 10 is always treated as 10 when using this skill.

Skill Trick: You reached a deep but creative understanding of the skill. Once per encounter and up to twice per day, the character can enhance the skill check with any of the options described in the "story points" chapter without spending story points. Whenever using a skill trick, the player should describe what the trick is (even if it doesn't make much sense). Spending a story point along with a skill trick allows the character to add two dice instead of one to the check.


Skill Points

Every character receives a number of skill points equal to 3+Int mod at first level, and an extra skill point every 4 levels. Humans get an extra skill point at first level. If the character's Intelligence score advances in the future, he may gain more skill points accordingly.

Rogues receive an extra skill point at every level, including the first. (this stacks with the skill points received every 5 levels)

Bards and Rangers receive an extra skill point at level first, and another one at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18.

The Open Minded feat gives you 2 extra skill points the first time you buy it (see below)

Class skills (and multiclass)

A character can have up to 8 class skills at first level (up to 10 if she's human). She choses from the class skills list of her class.

Everytime a character advances a level, she gets 2 more class skills from the list of the class she just took a level on.

For this ends, Craft, Perform and Profession count as a single skill each. Different kinds of Craft, Perform and Profession are still separate regarding skill point spending.

Craft, Perform and Profession

These skills have also another perk.

If any of those skills is a cross class for a character, it can be used untrained, but he gets no ranks in it.

If any of those skills is a class skill for a character, he gets automatic ranks in only one or two forms of it that are related to the character's background. These forms may or may not be defined at character creation.

For example:

Jodiah, a fighter, never spent any skill points in the Craft skill. However, Jodiah's player and the DM agree Jodiah probably knows something of weaponsmithing, so his Craft (weaponsmith) skill progresses automatically as an untrained class skill. If Jodiah later spends a skill point in Craft (weaponsmithing), the player and the DM could maybe agree that, during his adventures, he learned something about crafting armor as well, so from now on Craft (weapons) is a trained class skill, Craft (armors) is an untrained class skill, and for all the other Craft skills he receives no ranks.

Another example: Amma the monk was raised in a temple with no contact with mundane musical instruments. The player and the DM don't think she'd get any ranks in Perform (guitar), for example. She might have ranks in Perform (sing) because of ritual chanting, or in Perform (oratory) because of her contact with philosophers and apologists in the temple. Having both really wouldn't be unbalanced, but the player decides she'll only have automatic ranks in Perform (sing) because it's more related to her personality.

Since Skill Points are rare in this system, the DM shouldn't be afraid to allow players to learn professions, crafts and performances with no mechanical cost. A barbarian who spent months inside a ship as part of the crew should get ranks in Profession (sailor); the DM could consider Profession (sailor) an untrained class skill for her, even if Profession is a cross class skill for barbarians.


The system at work:

Tiberius, the sorcerer, has the following class skills at level 1st: Bluff, Craft, Concentration, Profession and Spellcraft. He has 4 skill points to spend since he's human: he spends 1 point in Concentration (trained), 2 in Spellcraft (he becomes an expert and choses Mastery for this skill), and 1 in Diplomacy (trained), a cross-class skill.

When he goes up a level he becomes a Sorcerer 2. He gains no skill points or class skills.

When he goes up a level again, he multiclasses to Rogue. He receives an additional skill point since that's a rogue class feature, and spends that point in Bluff. He can also choose 2 additional class skills from the Rogue list. He choses Diplomacy and Hide.Relevant feats:

Fool's Skill
In your own... unique way, you manage to irritatingly suceed in things you know nothing about.
Prerequisite: at least one ability 11 or less, level 5 or less.
Benefit: Choose two cross class skill you are untrained at, or two class skill you are inept at, or one of each. They must be based on abilities in which your score is 11 or less. You have Skill Mastery and Skill Trick with them.
Special: if you ever spend a skill point in the chosen skill, you lose the benefit of this feat with that skill. You can gain this feat multiple times; every time it applies to two extra skill.

Open Mind
Benefit: gain 2 skill points.
Special: You can gain Open Mind multiple times. Every additional time you gain this feat it grants 1 skill point instead of 2. Exception: the second, but not th third, time a human or half-elf gain this feat it grants 2 skill points.

Skill Expertise
Prerequisite: Int 13
Benefit: choose one skill you are expert at. You now have skill trick or skill mastery with it.
Special: You can gain this skill multiple times. Every time it applies to another skill.
(note: this is for your expert cross class skills)

Skill Expertise II
Prerequisite: Int 15, Skill Expertise
Benefit: choose one skill you are have Skill Expertise in. You know have both skill trick and skill mastery with it.

Mighty_Chicken
2013-12-20, 05:11 PM
Saved for a possible crazy adendum based on this idea. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=243.0;msg=47079)

Also, some musing of why I did each thing:


2d10 instead of 1d20 for skills: D&D combat system works with linear probability: the better warrior has a better chance to hit, so in the long run, after half a dozen rounds or so, he will most probably win.

The problem with using the same system for skills is that if you are better than me at something, there isn't a slight chance you will succeed over me. You will most probably win - but you're supposed to do so with just one roll! That's why d20's do not work for skills.

It's acceptable Einstein has a good chance of hitting Mike Tyson in the face at least once, but if Mike Tyson has a good chance of winnning the Physics Olympics against Einstein... you get the idea.

I tested 2d10 for skills. It works very, very well - as in, players having fun :) I did not test 3d6 but I think we don't need too - it is too little random, just not what they had in mind when they designed D&D.

2d10 makes skills pretty consistent. Over this ground of consistency, we can go creative with forms of allowing players to decide with which skills and in which moments their characters don't exactly follow the laws of physics.

It's also almost a worldbuilding tool; it creates an environment where the difference between a +3 and a +6 skill bonus is much bigger. Hard stuff is harder to do, and the difference between amateurs and professionals or more obvious.


2d10/1d20 alternity: When a character uses a d20 for a skill, he's doing something so crazy that could work, or going for an action movie moment. Similarly, when a character is using 2d10 in combat, he's saying, "there's no randomness in whether I'm hitting this puny minion or not" - a moment of protagonist confidence, so to speak.

If you have to get 18+ in a check, there's only a 6% chance you'll succeed with 2d10, but a 15% chance you'll succeed with the d20. Combined with a "special effect", in the right situation using this mechanic can be more advantageous than using the "action" dice.

Similarly, sometimes a foe will be easy to hit, but you just can't miss it. If anything bigger than 6 is enough to hit a certain foe, you have a 25% chance to fail with the d20, but only 10% chance with 2d10.

Combined with "special effects", this mechanic is a good oportunity to play exciting moments.


Progressive skills for everyone: Parties shouldn't depend on skillmonkeys for everything; and everyone should have the option to be awesome at one skill, at the cost of being only average in all others.

Since almost everyone can be good at skills, rogues most be ridiculously good at them. With at least 28 skill points throught their carrir they can achieve Expert+1 at least 9 times. That's a lot of being invencible at a skill everywhere. I just wish I had a system that allowed them to go even further.


Skill Mastery: Also known as "take 10". In the D&D next alpha editions I read it works like that now, and I think it's better like this. With 2d10, results under 10 happen 36% of times; with 1d20 it's 45%. So "take 10" is a little less powerful in this system. However, it's also part of the theme skills being consistent: for one more skill point, your chance of getting a bad result isn't 36% but 0.


Skill Trick: If Skill Mastery give skills dependability, Skill Trick gives it glitter and some power. A character with Skill Trick does something movie-esque or unexpected at least once per encounter. It gives the player at least 3 choices, not counting with the optional rule of using Complete Scoundrel's skill tricks. It depends a lot on the player creativity, and I couldn't think of a mechanic that said "this is my signature skill" better than this one. In this system everyone has ranks in many skills; this ability should make anyone who chose to invest in it unique.

If there is any way to improve it, I'm very interested to know!




A fancy changelog:

12-23-2013: Skill points every 4 levels instead of every 5 levels. Extra points por bards and rangers every 3 levels instead of every 5 levels. Open Mind only gives 2 skill points once.

12-27-2013: Major edit in OP. Simplified training levels (only three). Skill Expertise is a fighter feat. Monks progress as Bards (as it should be in RAW...). "Skill Trick" ability is now called "Skill Knack".

Mighty_Chicken
2013-12-23, 07:02 AM
Come on, surely there is something to comment on this :)

Ideally, this would power up skill monkeys a little and make skills funnier to use. On one hand it makes them more predictable (2d10), but it also shake things a bit with Skill Mastery and Trick. Will it work as intended?

AstralFire
2013-12-23, 07:31 AM
I am *severely* sleep deprived, so my big question is:

What does of note this accomplish that pairing bell curve rolls (3d6 or 2d10) with the the SAGA/4E or the Pathfinder Skill systems does not, and with far less explanation necessary?

Zman
2013-12-23, 08:58 AM
I am *severely* sleep deprived, so my big question is:

What does of note this accomplish that pairing bell curve rolls (3d6 or 2d10) with the the SAGA/4E or the Pathfinder Skill systems does not, and with far less explanation necessary?

I would agree.

What you have done is pair a Bell Curve with something that looks quite a lot like something we've already got.

Mighty_Chicken
2013-12-23, 09:03 AM
IMHO it's better than PF because the point-spending is simpler (you still have to learn a new system, but it's a simple one) and because you never face the "no one has ranks in Spot" situation. If it's part of your character class' identity, you can do it, even if poorly.

AFAIK 4E/SAGA has three tiers: untrained, trained and focused, right? Concerning number of ranks, I have 4. Maybe I could simplify it, but right now I agree they're similar.

But it's much better than both PF and 4E because of Skill Mastery and Skill Trick. Skill Mastery reinforces the theme of skill dependability; Skill Trick allows for out of the 'curve' unrealistic stuff.

I'm interested in the sinergy of these two abilities with the bell curve. And both of them are affordable by non-skill monkeys, so your fighter or wizard could also be a "one trick monkey", while skill monkeys are doing awesome stuff with skills all the time. That's the intent, and if you have ideas that could improve it I'm interested!

EDIT: about giving something new, how about this early early draft:

Eldritch Skill: Jump
You are perfectly attuned to the way energy flows through your muscles when you jump.

Prerequisite: Str or Dex 13; Jump (Expert) 13 ranks; Skill Trick or Skill Mastery in Jump
Benefit: You ignore all falling damage, and can make standing jumps without penalty. As a swift action you can make an extra jump in the same turn, as long there is any surface you could you to use to jump from, but with a -10 penalty.
If you have Skill Trick in Jump, you get a +5 bonus any time you're using Skill Trick or story points in Jump checks.
If you have Skill Mastery, any roll lesser than 15 is considered a 15 in your Jump checks.
Special: you can buy this feat using a skill point if you have both Skill Trick and Skill Mastery in Jump. You still must have all other prerequisites.

Greater Eldritch Skill: Jump
Prerequisite: Str or Dex 15, or Str and Dex 13; Jump (Expert) 18 ranks; Skill Trick or Skill Mastery in Jump; Eldritch Skill: Jump

Benefit: As a free action that can be made out of your turn, you can reduce the speed you fall to one third with a DC 40 Jump check. This is slow enough to make any activity that requires concentration without penalties. If you have a surface, you make your double jumps with no penalty, and can make double jumps in thin air with a -10 penalty.
Special: you can buy this feat using a skill point if you have both Skill Trick and Skill Mastery in Jump. You still must have all other prerequisites.

Supreme Eldritch Skill: Jump
Prerequisite: Str or Dex 19, or Str and Dex 15; Jump (Expert) 23 ranks; Skill Trick or Skill Mastery in Jump; Eldritch Skill: Jump; Greater Eldritch Skill: Jump
Benefit: You can Jump between dimensions. Your first double jump in thin air has no penalty, the following have a progressive -2 penalty to them.

Mighty_Chicken
2013-12-26, 09:50 AM
Huh, I know it's maybe a little creepy I keep talking to myself here, but here's an idea that's while not very original, has good synergy with this system.

Ability Checks as Skills

The idea is that all ability checks should be upgradable as skills. If you can get better and better at jumping, why not at breaking doors?

All the following skills are Trained Only; you don't get automatic ranks in them unless you invested points at them, but you can do the ability checks normally.

They're intentionally underpowered. They are intended for NPCs, cohorts, flavor and maybe very specific niches.

Dexterity and Wisdom don't get any "ability skills" because I think their skills already cover everything they could potentially do.

FORCE (Str)

Use this skill to break unattended objects (such as doors), win strength contests or move around more weight than your maximum load. Circus Strong Men and Jean Valjean have ranks in this skill!

Force normally represents your skill in drawing more power from your muscles in situations where you can concentrate - it does not give any bonuses to Sunder attempts unless you have Skill Trick in it. In that case, you could use the extra dice as damage against the sundered object, or your Sunder ranks instead of BAB for the Sunder roll.

Lifting and Dragging: every rank (counting skill bonuses given by sources like Skill Focus) in this skill allows you to lift over your head 5% more weight than your Strenght would permit. However, this is a tiring activity, requiring a Constitution or Endure check every two rounds to not get fatigued. You do not stagger when lifting objects this way.

Up to double this weight can be lifted. You stagger and the Constitution or Endure check is needed.

Same goes for pushing or dragging along the ground heavier weight. You can push or drag five times as much weight, but the Constitution or Endure check is only made every four turns.

Force is a class skill for barbarians, fighters and monks.


ENDURE (Con)

Use this skill to endure the elements, to resist great pain or discomfort, in most Constitution checks and uses of the Endurance feat. The bonuses granted by the Endurance feat stack with this skill.

A Skill Trick of Endure could represent doing things as staying calm while tortured or breathless, having an "iron stomach", ignoring the symptoms of a mundane disease for some rounds, etc.

Stabilizing: You can add your ranks in Endure (including skill bonuses given by sources like Skill Focus) to the d% rolled to determine if you become stable while at negative hit points.

Diehard: Having 5 or more ranks in this skill counts as having the Endurance feat when it's required for Diehard or similar feats.

Endure is a class skill for fighters, rangers and rogues.


DEDUCTION (Int)

Use this skill to solve puzzles, find the way out of a labyrinth, remember details of a crime scene, know a complicated formula by heart, and other feats of intelligence.

Sherlock Holmes had a high Intelligence score, but his way to success was having many ranks in the Deduction skill.

You don't use this skill to perceive things (this is Wisdom's and Search's jurisdiction), just to understand better what you could already perceive.

A solid Skill Trick for Deduction could be using it instead of a Knowledge, Spot or Search for something or someone who's familiar for you (ie, not facing for the first time). The Deduction check should still be made with a penalty of -5 or -10 depending on how familiar the subject is.

Deduction is a class skill for bards and rogues.

INFLUENCE (Cha)

If Diplomacy isn't "getting people to like you" but "getting people to do what you want" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11090621), there's a bigger number of Charisma-related activities that don't have a skill: what am I doing if I'm not lying, threatening or negotiating?

Use this skill to seduce, to make people notice you in a crowd, or taunt a foe into anger.

Check: An Influence check is similar to the modified Diplomacy check (link above), but you are trying to get an emotional response instead of a deal. Unless affected by magic, madness or other extreme conditions, a person still has her free will regardless of her emotions.

The DC is 15, affected by the usual relationship modifiers. Instead of the risk/reward modifier, the DM modifies the DC depending of how open the NPC would be to be influenced into the desired emotion.

{table=head]
Modifier|
Meaningfulness|
Example
-20|Fantastic: The emotion is pretty much what the NPC would be feeling anyway. |B]Example:[/B] cheering up a person who just received good news.
-10|Very Good: The emotion is something that the NPC is specially or situationally open to feel |]Example:[/B] Seducing a person spending her free time in a tavern, making a hungry thief feel greedy about your gold.
-5|Favorable: The emotion is pleasant and/or ressonates with the NPC's personality |Example: Taunting someone who's fighting against you into anger, flirting with a flirty person.
+0|Even: The NPC has no reason to feel or to resist the emotion.|Example: Seducing someone in the street, trying to make a stranger pity you
+5|Unfavorable: The NPC has some reason to avoid that feeling. |Example: Trying to make a guard angry (obviously a trap, but he likes to beat people up anyway), trying to make a common working person greedy.
+10|Highly Unfavorable: The feeling is something the NPC despises or that would be obviously unappropriate. |Example: Seducing a faithful married person, making someone pity you after you hurt or killed someone, trying to make a paladin feel greedy, trying to make a coward feel anger instead of fear towards you.
+20|Horrible: The feeling is so surreal given the situation, or so morally unappropriate, it is very unlikely the NPC would feel it. |Example: Seducing someone with morbidly depraved content, making a victim pity you while you attack him, make Superman cry with a phrase written in a tiny piece of paper [/table]

If the Influence attempt wasn't open and honest, a failure for 5 or more makes the subject distrust the PC.

Influence doesn't necessarily gives any mechanical advantage, but NPCs under certain emotions are obviously more prone to take certain actions. Manipulating NPCs' emotions should also have some effect on Diplomacy checks (generally a +2 or -2), maybe even Intimidate, Sense Motive, Spot and Listen, etc.

Some uses of Influence Skill Tricks could be taunting barbarians into rage before their captain orders them to, giving an ally another save roll against a fear effect, tauntint a caster into using damage spells instead of more strategical ones, getting known by every criminal in the city just by drinking in taverns...

Influence is a class skill for bards and rogues.

(this is a draft so more talented people may hopefully improve it someday)

AstralFire
2013-12-26, 10:21 AM
I would still simplify. This is awkward to graft onto the system as-is, and there are simpler ways to allow people to get skill tricks too (as in, add a skill trick progression once every few levels on the Saga base.) While this certainly looks like it'd work, it also doesn't look like it's worth the effort to retrofit with the amount of complications in setting it up. Ignore class' skill ranks, six different grades of performance... The only part where it has a clear advantage, to me, is in its use of the bell curve. And that can be adapted to any skill system. (I currently allow my players to roll 3d6 or 1d20 at leisure in trained skills, for example.)

Mighty_Chicken
2013-12-26, 03:47 PM
Well, the difference here is that "Skill Trick" (not the same as Complete Scoundrel's skill tricks) and Skill Mastery are bought with the same resources you could use to buy more skill ranks. So, for example, a fighter could get these abilities with Jump without spending his precious feats, and a skill monkey has more resources to spend in these features than anyone else.

Just a reminder of what I mean with "Skill Trick":

Skill Trick: You reached a deep but creative understanding of the skill.

Once per encounter and up to twice per day, the character can enhance the skill check with:

- an extra dice (d4, d6 or d8 depending on level)
- an extra detail
- a bigger than life move not unlike Complete Scoundrel's skill tricks

The player should describe what the trick is.

But I feel something is missing, too. Simplicity surely would help. I will go in a direction similar to what you suggested:


{table=head]|
Skill Training

Untrained|
No progression

Trained|
2 ranks +1/2 levels

Expert|
3 ranks +1/level
[/table]

You are untrained in cross class skills; you become trained in them by spending one skill point and expert by spending two.

You are also trained in all class skills you chose (remember, they're just 8+2/level) and become Expert in them by spending a single skill point. Every extra skill point spent in class skills gives you either Skill Trick (the extra dice related ability, not the CS one!) or Skill Mastery, or other abilities I may come up with...

I'm considering giving Untrained half of Trained's progression, instead of none. Or maybe I won't.

The problem I'm feeling right now is that Skill Mastery and Skill Trick do not feel flavorful enough. They're also very strong, which isn't imbalanced IMO but limits me to come up with new stuff.

As an extra thingy and inspired by you, I think all Experts should be able to switch between 2d10 and d20's freely.

How does it look now? And you do think it doesn't works well with Skill Trick/Mastery costing skill points?

I also thought of this feat to add a little versatility to everyone:

Versatile background

Prerequisite: 1st level, or relevant life event during the campaign

Benefit: Choose up to three skills that are thematically related to the same background.

If you are 1st level, pick two of them. They are now class skills for you.

If you are of a higher level, pick just one of them.

The remanescent skills can be bought later speding a skill point for each.

The list of theme related skills are subject to the DM's approval.

Some examples:

Rural background: Handle Animal, Profession, Ride

Bohemian background: Gather information, Perform, Diplomacy

Poor background: Intimidate, Search, Bluff

Traveling background: Speak languages, Knowledge (geography), Survival

Military background: Heal, Jump, Ride

Criminal background: Hide, Listen, Forgery

Artistic background: Escape Artist, Perform, Tumble

Circus background: Force, Endure, Disguise

War-torn background: Hide, Survival, Intimidate

You can only gain Versatile Background once.



EDIT: oops. Trained ranks should be 2+1/2 levels

Mighty_Chicken
2013-12-28, 11:58 AM
I should wholeheartedly thank AstralFire for his input! The system complexity was really distracting and disturbing me. I only needed to cut out not three, but one level of skill training and rename some things: now there are 3 skill training levels which is so much more elegant and less confusing.

This clarity is even helping me to understand what I'm doing.

I also switched "Skill Trick" naming for "Skill Knack". It's less confusing like this, but unfortunately the reference to the spirit of Complete Scoundrel is less clear.

Just to make it clear: the difference between this system and 4E/SAGA is that here, you can get a special ability (Take 10 or Skill Knack) when you're good enough (expert) with the skill. And even a first level fighter could have one of those special abilities, even in a cross class skill! For two skill points and a feat, a fighter could be a ninja with his Skill Knack in Hide or a wizard could be a talented horseman with his Skill Mastery in Ride. At the same time, characters will eventually be competent in all their class skills.

DarkLightHitomi
2013-12-29, 02:55 PM
Ive done this, though I didnt use percentiles. I call my system Roads and Ruins. I have very little on these forums, but I have a google site and a game on rpol with the rules.

I cant link with my nook, but sometime next week when I can get to the library, I can post a link to both if you want to see them.

My system meets all four of your criteria, though Im still modifying minor points here and there.

Its skill based, simple to build and use, advancement is exponential by individual skills which encourages versatility without denying specializing, and health is a condition track with degrading fort save. Feats and abilities add spice, variety, and customization while controlling access to the more powerful abilities.