Elven Archer Fighter; how to?(3.5/3e)

[Togath]

There's a new(both to the campaign, as well as 3.5) player joining my campaign in a few days..
After some talking, I've determined that he wants to play a non-magical elven archer.. At least currently, he's set on fighter(despite my offers of "ranger without spells", "warblade with archer discipline", and "if you don't want magic.. what about a psychic warrior?").

I figured I should ask around here for advice, since he has asked me for advice, and I'm not able to provide much in this case.

With regards to allowed materials, all 3.5/3e content(including Ebberon, Rokugan, and Dragonlance content, but excluding the Forgotten Realms) is allowed.

For houserules;
all classes may mutliclass without penalty(either to xp, or ability to progress).
all alignment restrictions are removed.
psionics is treated as fully different from magic.
all classes gain the average result per hd, excluding the first(which is maxxed as normal)
crafting does not cost xp.
nor do spells, or losing familiars.
Wizard, Cleric, Druid and Archivist are banned.
either the 3e or 3.5 versions of shugenja, wujen, or samurai may be used, even within the same character, in which case both versions are treated as separate classes.
the same goes for spells printed in oriental adventures.
32 point buy.

As for the party, is consists of a warforged knight/crusader(with a custom feat that lets crusader levels boost knight's challenge), a warforged sorcerer, a half-elf bard, a human artificer(who mostly focuses on crafting and repairing the warforged), and a throwing focused halfling rogue.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well if he is set on being a fighter.

Gray Elf Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Swordsage 1/ Targetteer Fighter 10.

Throw on Necropolitan if he is ok with being Undead.

Max Int and Dex, spend feats on Darkstalker, Kung Fu Genius, Craven, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, and Shadow Blade along with picking up the critical archer feats. Quick Reconnoiter as well if he wants a bit more of a scout focus. Then take Font of Inspiration for all of the other feats.

From Martial Monk get Weapon Supremacy and, if you (the DM) will allow it, the Epic feat Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot).

If he is willing to dump some Fighter and you are willing to allow a bit higher op then dump two levels of Fighter for Ardent with the Magic Mantle and the feats Practiced Spellcaster, Practiced Manifester, and Psiotheurgist. That gets you 9th level powers known. A bit lower op is to just use Practiced Manifester and Praticed Spellcaster so that you can take 5th level powers. Then take advantage of a Spell to Power Erudite to get all of the ranger and assassin (along with a couple of paladin) spells that are useful to an archer onto the characters list of powers known.

The full fighter version is virtually magic free (the only "magic" being Invisible Fist and the Factotum casting) and fits an elf thematically while being a very good archer.

---
Straight Fighter archer is a whole different story.

[Darrin]

If he's serious about sticking with Fighter, then I'd make sure he takes Ancestral Relic (BoED) + elvencraft masterwork composite longbow ASAP. Either handwave the 3rd level requirement or deliver it at 3rd as an "inheritance". Work something into his backstory about his father was a member of a secret order of archers, give it a cool name like the Stormravens, Order of Falling Stars, Eternal Eagleclaws, etc. Drop some hints that they have access to some secret archer whoopass (some archery-friendly Warblade maneuvers) and throw in a grizzled "Mentor" NPC who may offer to train him later. Have this secret order save the party's bacon a couple times and then mysteriously disappear. Build up to a confrontation that gets defused when one of the members recognizes the PC's bow as once belonging to a fallen/missing member. Then encourage him to join with an archery contest or 80's movie training montage. His mentor or the other members can guide him through taking levels of Warblade or Eternal Blade. The 4-6 fighter levels he took beforehand won't hurt him too much, and his IL will be high enough to cherry-pick enough boosts/counters that will work with ranged attacks.

To get him used to maneuvers, drop him a Novice Diamond Mind Ring. Start him out with a simple boost or strike once per encounter until he gets used to how it works, and then when he sees how the Warblade refreshes it will seem much cooler.

If the player refuses to go in that direction, the best way to make sure he stays reasonably effective is to make sure he gets decent magic items and equipment. Try not to be too obvious about it, but you can still use that secret order of elf archers to drop elf-only or archery-related items (have a few of them get wiped out by a big bad, PCs arrive too late to save 'em but can still pick up the scraps).

[Urpriest]

Any reason why they rejected Warblade? If they're new to 3.5, you had the opportunity to describe the classes however you wanted, so I presume it was some mechanical thing.

[hymer]

A handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0), mostly for getting the right sort of bow.
I agree with Darrin on getting him Ancestral Relic. He's going to need some help on what sorts of things he should charge his fancy bow with, however.
Personally, I'd cheat a little. I'd quietly clear it with the other players (who shouldn't be that bothered), and then just allow him some stuff which isn't technically possible and/or homebrewed. A quiver, which always gives him an arrow with the material to cut the DR of whatever he shoots at. The ability to shoot down magical effects (dispel magic-like or some such, using his attack roll as the caster level check) when someone would have shut him down with a simple spell effect. Let him make some sort of check to shoot in melee without provoking as needed. That sort of thing.
This is his first time, let him feel powerful, and don't try to make him pick more complex options if he doesn't want them. Let him pick those up when he feels like it.

[TmasterT]

dragon mag #310, take the targeteer fighter ACF, its mandatory for a fighter archer build, take all the new special feats for that acf. get him a great bow since the ACF grats prof in 2 exotic weapons.

[AMFV]

There were some pretty good combinations of Divine Crusader and Arcane Archer if I recall from that particular Iron Chef competition, or at least one, that's the sort of thing you could combine that would work effectively for the same purpose.

[Kazuel]

Can you get him to take scout instead?

[Togath]

Any reason why they rejected Warblade? If they're new to 3.5, you had the opportunity to describe the classes however you wanted, so I presume it was some mechanical thing.

I'm honestly not sure.
If I had to guess, since he's new to the system, that he may have assumed it's more balanced than it is...
I'll try again, before the session starts, and I may just be blunt and explain that he'd be underpowered in this group if he went fighter(especially since the party is already 4th level, as he's joining a campaign in progress).

[Seerow]

I'm honestly not sure.
If I had to guess, since he's new to the system, that he may have assumed it's more balanced than it is...
I'll try again, before the session starts, and I may just be blunt and explain that he'd be underpowered in this group if he went fighter(especially since the party is already 4th level, as he's joining a campaign in progress).

It could also be he's new to the group, and is looking for a simple class. And the Fighter is simple in play, even if it takes an experienced player to make an effective build.

Rather than just explaining that he'll be underpowered, try offering a variety of options to help him keep up, ranging from advice on build, to some custome homebrew class that just gives him the abilities you think are necessary to keep up. (Assuming the group won't mind you giving the new player a leg up in getting used to the game).

Also, keep in mind he may be fine with being underpowered. There's a lot of players who want to stumble through learning the system on their own. If he doesn't want your help, don't force it on him, let him make his own choices. My group had this problem with a player a while back, where he would reliably bring an underpowered character to the table. But every time we tried to offer advice, or suggest alternatives, all it did was irritate him. In the end we decided to just leave him be. He has fun playing the character his way, and dealing with being less effective as a result. Not saying that's the case for everyone, but if he's in a similar mindset, continuing to pester him with ways to optimize more will eventually just drive him away from the game.

[Snowbluff]

Well if he is set on being a fighter.

Gray Elf Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Swordsage 1/ Targetteer Fighter 10.

Throw on Necropolitan if he is ok with being Undead.

Max Int and Dex, spend feats on Darkstalker, Kung Fu Genius, Craven, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, and Shadow Blade along with picking up the critical archer feats. Quick Reconnoiter as well if he wants a bit more of a scout focus. Then take Font of Inspiration for all of the other feats.
Hmm... interesting. However, not having more Fonts seems incredibly imprudent. Shadow Blade doesn't work with bows innately, for example. Dragon Magazine material abounds, so the DM has to be okay with that... I think this would be pretty sweet build without DMag, though. I think I'll scrounge up some damage bonuses. Manyshot should work really well here.

If you are going Necropolitan, Human Heritage is way stronger than the meager elf bonuses. Too bad about the oddly specific material. I'm totally going to make a Monster Hunter Archer now. :smallbiggrin:

[thethird]

chaos shuffle, and that feat that gets you int for hp make elves better.

[Snowbluff]

chaos shuffle, and that feat that gets you int for hp make elves better. Supreme immunities is better than a few feats. If you have the money to shuffle, take a little look at the Complete Scoundrel. 6 feats, easy.

EDIT: Tippy, how can I get a bow as a monk weapon? D: